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Gasman
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:21 am

NZ6 wrote:
Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I have to be extremely careful what I say here. However a few a-net myths which should be put to bed are:

a) Foran was brought in with some hidden agenda to cull staff numbers. He was brought in as a result of his extensive business experience in the sales and distribution sector, very much like Luxon was. All large businesses have a workforce that naturally mushrooms overtime and although a restructure is a bit of a taboo topic, is also necessary and healthy at times. COVID isn't the silver bullet to some hidden agenda.


Unless you personally are on the board of NZ you wouldn't have a clue what agendas were at play in terms of Foran's appointment. Sure, I have no hard evidence to prove he was bought in as a hatchet man either; except for a lifetime of experience observing corporates who have employed those of a similar mould to Foran. The Walmart background speaks volumes for a start.


Based on that, no one outside of the boardroom would know. Therefore it can't be ruled in or out.


Agree, but in your post #46 you asserted that such an agenda was a "myth which should be put to bed".

Foran has been appointed as CEO of a major airline with having *zero* prior experience in the aviation industry. He does, however, have experience in a large company associated with high volumes, tight margins and an exploitative employee relations record. He's also at the end of his career and doesn't have a lot to lose in terms of his reputation going forward. Do the math how you will, sure; but I don't think any of this hints towards a round of toasts for Greg at the next staff Christmas party.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:24 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Re SQ MEL-WLG I agree they would be relying on WLG-MEL traffic only and given WLG is a comparatively small city I personally don’t see it returning at least not until there is some normality in other parts of the world and they can carry SIN bound pax.

I have said and do wonder if the likes of EK and TG will look at TT ex AKL with aircraft carrying freight DXB/BKK- Australia then pax to AKL and CHC in EK case, they would need to be able to have crews based in Australia would seem the safest so they only fly the Tasman for a period of time after a self isolation period.


I'm not sure you're with me on this one 100%, it's about eliminating risk of exposing those moving around within the bubble to the virus.

So bubble passengers and non bubble passengers cannot be mixed. Onboard or at the airport. This will likely include crew. So both governments allowing 3rd national carriers TG,SQ,EK to fly "bubble" passengers without isolation measures will be off the cards.

An arrival into NZ who flew on SQ, SIN-MEL-WLG will need to stay in managed isolation like every other inbound arrival. Of course this is pending it being extended to include WLG. Very little point doing this if they were sat close to, or shared facilities with a "bubble passenger".

Then, I can't see SQ having an interest in MEL-WLG-MEL bubble only flights.


What I’m saying is that SQ for example run a freight only SIN-MEL and then have cabin crew effectively based in MEL that do the MEL-WLG-MEL leg with pax and then MEL-SIN is freight only again. So no mixing of bubble non bubble pax but using the aircraft to carry freight into NZ, EK would maybe be the most likely to do this in this case as a 17-18hr non stop AKL-DXB might not be the most feasible for a while at least I although they have done a few flights recently freight only. TG to keep a presence in AKL doing something like this?
 
Gasman
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:42 am

I think "bubbles" are a bit fanciful all-round really.

Suppose we have one with Australia, and then they come under pressure to include Indonesia (which is likely). That means whatever decision Australia makes, we too are bound by - unless we close our borders to Australia again. The whole thing is a practical and political quagmire. Until there's a vaccine, or clear evidence that the virus itself is beginning to fizzle out, I don't even see anything but the most strict TransTasman bubble anytime soon - and maybe not even that.
Last edited by Gasman on Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Toenga
Posts: 84
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:43 am

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Gasman wrote:

Unless you personally are on the board of NZ you wouldn't have a clue what agendas were at play in terms of Foran's appointment. Sure, I have no hard evidence to prove he was bought in as a hatchet man either; except for a lifetime of experience observing corporates who have employed those of a similar mould to Foran. The Walmart background speaks volumes for a start.


Based on that, no one outside of the boardroom would know. Therefore it can't be ruled in or out.


Agree, but in your post #46 you asserted that such an agenda was a "myth which should be put to bed".

Foran has been appointed as CEO of a major airline with having *zero* prior experience in the aviation industry. He does, however, have experience in a large company associated with high volumes, tight margins and an exploitative employee relations record. He's also at the end of his career and doesn't have a lot to lose in terms of his reputation going forward. Do the math how you will, sure; but I don't think any of this hints towards a round of toasts for Greg at the next staff Christmas party.


In this environment he might get away with exploiting the relationship between Air New Zealand and it's staff for a while, but trying to exploit the relationship with loyal, and in the most case forgiving customers, is disgraceful. The ever changing reluctance to fairly handle refunds of flights not flown, is severly degrading, arguably it's most valuable asset, a loyal customer base. Sort it Greg. Clear policy now. Something like cruise ship companies, choice of a full refund or 100 plus? %, flexible account credit against future flights. Don't potentially lose big future dollars to save cents now.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:10 am

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Gasman wrote:

Unless you personally are on the board of NZ you wouldn't have a clue what agendas were at play in terms of Foran's appointment. Sure, I have no hard evidence to prove he was bought in as a hatchet man either; except for a lifetime of experience observing corporates who have employed those of a similar mould to Foran. The Walmart background speaks volumes for a start.


Based on that, no one outside of the boardroom would know. Therefore it can't be ruled in or out.


Agree, but in your post #46 you asserted that such an agenda was a "myth which should be put to bed".

Foran has been appointed as CEO of a major airline with having *zero* prior experience in the aviation industry. He does, however, have experience in a large company associated with high volumes, tight margins and an exploitative employee relations record. He's also at the end of his career and doesn't have a lot to lose in terms of his reputation going forward. Do the math how you will, sure; but I don't think any of this hints towards a round of toasts for Greg at the next staff Christmas party.


Myth because there's nothing here to support such a claim other than..... well... what is there?

How much "airline" experience did Christopher Luxon bring? - Being a CEO is about running a business.

Anyway I'm checking out again.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:18 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Re SQ MEL-WLG I agree they would be relying on WLG-MEL traffic only and given WLG is a comparatively small city I personally don’t see it returning at least not until there is some normality in other parts of the world and they can carry SIN bound pax.

I have said and do wonder if the likes of EK and TG will look at TT ex AKL with aircraft carrying freight DXB/BKK- Australia then pax to AKL and CHC in EK case, they would need to be able to have crews based in Australia would seem the safest so they only fly the Tasman for a period of time after a self isolation period.


I'm not sure you're with me on this one 100%, it's about eliminating risk of exposing those moving around within the bubble to the virus.

So bubble passengers and non bubble passengers cannot be mixed. Onboard or at the airport. This will likely include crew. So both governments allowing 3rd national carriers TG,SQ,EK to fly "bubble" passengers without isolation measures will be off the cards.

An arrival into NZ who flew on SQ, SIN-MEL-WLG will need to stay in managed isolation like every other inbound arrival. Of course this is pending it being extended to include WLG. Very little point doing this if they were sat close to, or shared facilities with a "bubble passenger".

Then, I can't see SQ having an interest in MEL-WLG-MEL bubble only flights.


What I’m saying is that SQ for example run a freight only SIN-MEL and then have cabin crew effectively based in MEL that do the MEL-WLG-MEL leg with pax and then MEL-SIN is freight only again. So no mixing of bubble non bubble pax but using the aircraft to carry freight into NZ, EK would maybe be the most likely to do this in this case as a 17-18hr non stop AKL-DXB might not be the most feasible for a while at least I although they have done a few flights recently freight only. TG to keep a presence in AKL doing something like this?


So that's SQ running Tasman only "bubble flights" on the back of a freighter SIN-MEL. What's in that for SQ? NZ/QF haven't exactly loaded the route with excess capacity in the best of times not to mention a travel bubble during a COVID pandemic and recession.

Isn't SQ better putting it's excess equipment into SIN-MEL and SIN-AKL/CHC?or even SIN-WLG if it can work.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:29 am

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I have to be extremely careful what I say here. However a few a-net myths which should be put to bed are:

a) Foran was brought in with some hidden agenda to cull staff numbers. He was brought in as a result of his extensive business experience in the sales and distribution sector, very much like Luxon was. All large businesses have a workforce that naturally mushrooms overtime and although a restructure is a bit of a taboo topic, is also necessary and healthy at times. COVID isn't the silver bullet to some hidden agenda.


Unless you personally are on the board of NZ you wouldn't have a clue what agendas were at play in terms of Foran's appointment. Sure, I have no hard evidence to prove he was bought in as a hatchet man either; except for a lifetime of experience observing corporates who have employed those of a similar mould to Foran. The Walmart background speaks volumes for a start.

Perhaps, although at Walmart he was known for doing the opposite... he got Walmart growing again, he increased employment and increased wages more than what Walmart would have normally done. So while I do have some reservations, I don’t think he is a hatchet man (apart from what is needed due to Covid19).
One positive is that so far he does seem to be doing at least a good proportion of cuts at Head Office etc. NZ is very top heavy with only around half of employees being what would normally be considered “operational” - pilots, flight attendants, airports, engineers, flight planning, call centre.
Really in a business this size operational should be 2/3.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
sunbus617
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:25 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:51 am

NZ6 wrote:
I have to be extremely careful what I say here. However a few a-net myths which should be put to bed are.


That's a very interesting choice of words. Does NZ pay you to participate here?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7500
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:03 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

I'm not sure you're with me on this one 100%, it's about eliminating risk of exposing those moving around within the bubble to the virus.

So bubble passengers and non bubble passengers cannot be mixed. Onboard or at the airport. This will likely include crew. So both governments allowing 3rd national carriers TG,SQ,EK to fly "bubble" passengers without isolation measures will be off the cards.

An arrival into NZ who flew on SQ, SIN-MEL-WLG will need to stay in managed isolation like every other inbound arrival. Of course this is pending it being extended to include WLG. Very little point doing this if they were sat close to, or shared facilities with a "bubble passenger".

Then, I can't see SQ having an interest in MEL-WLG-MEL bubble only flights.


What I’m saying is that SQ for example run a freight only SIN-MEL and then have cabin crew effectively based in MEL that do the MEL-WLG-MEL leg with pax and then MEL-SIN is freight only again. So no mixing of bubble non bubble pax but using the aircraft to carry freight into NZ, EK would maybe be the most likely to do this in this case as a 17-18hr non stop AKL-DXB might not be the most feasible for a while at least I although they have done a few flights recently freight only. TG to keep a presence in AKL doing something like this?


So that's SQ running Tasman only "bubble flights" on the back of a freighter SIN-MEL. What's in that for SQ? NZ/QF haven't exactly loaded the route with excess capacity in the best of times not to mention a travel bubble during a COVID pandemic and recession.

Isn't SQ better putting it's excess equipment into SIN-MEL and SIN-AKL/CHC?or even SIN-WLG if it can work.


I did say upthread given WLG city is comparatively small I personally don’t see it. More for the likes of TG/EK who have flown the Tasman ex AKL and EK still do ex CHC, EK running DXB-AKL anytime soon seems like a stretch but a Tasman flight keeps them in the AKL market and same for TG who at times have struggled, the 789 seems to have helped them a lot with AKL being daily year round the last 3 or so years since the 789 started.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:51 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Yes that article says they’ve spent $500m and are currently spending $5m per day. It doesn’t say they expect to spend $500m in the next 100 days.


Foran in the interview points out that there is $640m left in the bank and it will be all spent and they will start using the $900m loan before the end of the year. At FEB they had $1.2b in the bank so they are burning through cash very fast.

There are 210 days left in the year....
As for the burning cash, they had a lot of refunds to issue (US flights for example), they had costs associated with grounding planes, redundancy payments, etc. Now that many of those costs have been finalised and their staff numbers are less they should have reduced burn. Add in the return of many flights, bookings and freight operations picking up that should also help to balance things somewhat. Yes that isn’t enough, but it is enough to reduce that burn to last more than 100 days.


Hopefully another way soon will save them burning through cash. Is the removal of social distancing requirements under level one. They must be heavily revenue restricted at the moment with only 25 seats available for sale on a Q300 etc which won't be near enough to break even.
 
axio
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:34 pm

Has anyone tried using NZ credits yet?
I got the email about them this morning and had a read through the FAQs and I remain a bit confused about how I might select the flights/options I want, especially when the site says it might be up to 14 days until they get back to me if I use the form - fares and availability could change pretty significantly in that time (travel plans are for early July). I'm thinking I just go ahead and make the new booking I want then use the online form to indicate my original and new booking references. But has anyone been through the process?
Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
 
GW54
Posts: 59
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:22 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Anger and dismay at Air New Zealand proposal to remove extra $150 million from its wages bill

Air New Zealand may need to slash more jobs on top of 4000 redundancies it's already made as it responds to Covid-19, its chief executive says.

In a letter sent to staff on Friday Greg Foran laid out a plan and timeline to get Air New Zealand back on its feet which included removing around $150 million more from its wages bill starting Friday.

"We are open to explore all options with unions that help meet our cost saving goals, but I do want to be clear that we need to brace ourselves for more discussions around leave without pay, reduced hours, job share, voluntary exits with redundancies as the last option," Foran said.


more:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indust ... wages-bill

Could see another 4000+ jobs gone with all roles outsourced in the future to save the business from going under. Not good for the workers affected for sure and more to join the dole line. All maintenance could potentially be done in SIN etc. All ground handling done by Swissport etc. A very big restructure is on the horizon!


This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives. Maybe Winston is right. Get Air NZ back under Govt control. Save jobs and run the Airline for the benefit of New Zealand and not the shareholders.
 
a7ala
Posts: 359
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:34 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

What I’m saying is that SQ for example run a freight only SIN-MEL and then have cabin crew effectively based in MEL that do the MEL-WLG-MEL leg with pax and then MEL-SIN is freight only again. So no mixing of bubble non bubble pax but using the aircraft to carry freight into NZ, EK would maybe be the most likely to do this in this case as a 17-18hr non stop AKL-DXB might not be the most feasible for a while at least I although they have done a few flights recently freight only. TG to keep a presence in AKL doing something like this?


So that's SQ running Tasman only "bubble flights" on the back of a freighter SIN-MEL. What's in that for SQ? NZ/QF haven't exactly loaded the route with excess capacity in the best of times not to mention a travel bubble during a COVID pandemic and recession.

Isn't SQ better putting it's excess equipment into SIN-MEL and SIN-AKL/CHC?or even SIN-WLG if it can work.


I did say upthread given WLG city is comparatively small I personally don’t see it. More for the likes of TG/EK who have flown the Tasman ex AKL and EK still do ex CHC, EK running DXB-AKL anytime soon seems like a stretch but a Tasman flight keeps them in the AKL market and same for TG who at times have struggled, the 789 seems to have helped them a lot with AKL being daily year round the last 3 or so years since the 789 started.


I think you'll see airlines not wanting to transit passengers through 3rd countries once the global borders start to open so would be surprised to see SIN-MEL-WLG back in the short term. I think it would be more likely to see a SIN-WLG-CHC or AKL-SIN back initially given all 3 markets are going to be heavily compromised and aggregating would make sense to maintain an adequate hub frequency when the cost of fuel (and presumably staff) is so low.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:19 am

0 new cases and 0 active cases. We should find out at 15.00 when Level 1 is coming. Which is good news for aviation as it removes all restrictions for domestic travel.
 
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qf789
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:24 am

The Air India repatriation flight that departed yesterday had 154 passengers onboard

Image

https://twitter.com/HardeepSPuri/status ... 91808?s=20
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zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:49 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
0 new cases and 0 active cases. We should find out at 15.00 when Level 1 is coming. Which is good news for aviation as it removes all restrictions for domestic travel.


And with that announcement this afternoon, how fast will NZ start filling the middle seats?

Good to see JQ has officially started promoting domestic travel again, for travel from the start of July.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:08 am

GW54 wrote:
This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives. Maybe Winston is right. Get Air NZ back under Govt control. Save jobs and run the Airline for the benefit of New Zealand and not the shareholders.

This is a big statement. Can you provide a source, or is it just typical A-net speculation?
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:12 am

axio wrote:
Has anyone tried using NZ credits yet?
I got the email about them this morning and had a read through the FAQs and I remain a bit confused about how I might select the flights/options I want, especially when the site says it might be up to 14 days until they get back to me if I use the form - fares and availability could change pretty significantly in that time (travel plans are for early July). I'm thinking I just go ahead and make the new booking I want then use the online form to indicate my original and new booking references. But has anyone been through the process?

I have seen one suggestion that someone made which was NZ should just turn any credits into Airpoints dollars for those that wish it. Would improve flexibility and also reduce the amount of call centre use etc.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:17 am

DavidByrne wrote:
GW54 wrote:
This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives. Maybe Winston is right. Get Air NZ back under Govt control. Save jobs and run the Airline for the benefit of New Zealand and not the shareholders.

This is a big statement. Can you provide a source, or is it just typical A-net speculation?


it's just that. Apparently it's linked due to Walmart.

Most new CEO's realign their business so it best positioned to achieve their goals, targets etc.

But NZ has reported profit for well over a decade now and added 15+ widebody aircraft to their fleet not to mention it's also increased short-haul aircraft opened more routes, services and connected more city pairs directly....

All while staff numbers have increased from say... around 10 to 12K.
 
DavidByrne
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:05 am

NZ6 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
GW54 wrote:
This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives.

This is a big statement. Can you provide a source, or is it just typical A-net speculation?

it's just that. Apparently it's linked due to Walmart.

Yes, I find the lack of sophistication in some posters’ understanding of the world and how it works rather tiresome. Almost every airline appointment anywhere is criticised by some because the successful candidate does not have the CV that s/he “should” have. The same kinds of criticism were levelled at Luxon IIRC. Obviously he did a terrible job and the airline suffered badly. We obviously wouldn’t want another appointment like that. I mean, Unilever - they know nothing about airlines. He obviously just fluked it.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:35 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Yes, I find the lack of sophistication in some posters’ understanding of the world and how it works rather tiresome.


Then you ought to be able to debate the argument, if you feel you have superior understanding of the way the world works.

davidbyrne wrote:
Almost every airline appointment anywhere is criticised by some because the successful candidate does not have the CV that s/he “should” have.


Of course they are. Pretty much every job appointment will be criticised by someone. I'm sure mine was, and probably yours too. What's your point?

In any case I'm not aware of anyone here criticising Foran's appointment. If my dream for NZ was for it to be first & foremost a revenue generating machine for shareholders, I may well have appointed him myself. It's just that several of us - who also believe we have some kind of understanding of how the world works - choose to join the dots in a certain way, and believe Foran's background and lack of airline experience points to a certain agenda.

DavidByrne wrote:
The same kinds of criticism were levelled at Luxon IIRC. Obviously he did a terrible job and the airline suffered badly. We obviously wouldn’t want another appointment like that. I mean, Unilever - they know nothing about airlines. He obviously just fluked it.


No. Firstly, Luxon was appointed to CEO from within NZ, not outside. So he had first hand experience with the airline itself. That's not counting his experience with VA and Tourism Australia. And Walmart (or K-Mart/Costco/or whatever you care to insert) wasn't the most recent thing on his CV.
 
SpoonNZ
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:06 am

Zkpilot wrote:
I have seen one suggestion that someone made which was NZ should just turn any credits into Airpoints dollars for those that wish it. Would improve flexibility and also reduce the amount of call centre use etc.

And then we can all go spend those points at Mitre 10, which presumably means AirNZ are paying out the cash anyway.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:20 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
axio wrote:
Has anyone tried using NZ credits yet?
I got the email about them this morning and had a read through the FAQs and I remain a bit confused about how I might select the flights/options I want, especially when the site says it might be up to 14 days until they get back to me if I use the form - fares and availability could change pretty significantly in that time (travel plans are for early July). I'm thinking I just go ahead and make the new booking I want then use the online form to indicate my original and new booking references. But has anyone been through the process?

I have seen one suggestion that someone made which was NZ should just turn any credits into Airpoints dollars for those that wish it. Would improve flexibility and also reduce the amount of call centre use etc.


On Fargo last night it was the headline issue! They had an interview with Cam Wallace, he claimed that APD was the preferred option.

Although they found out last week, that for tax reasons that aren’t able to do it!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:05 pm

zkncj wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
0 new cases and 0 active cases. We should find out at 15.00 when Level 1 is coming. Which is good news for aviation as it removes all restrictions for domestic travel.


And with that announcement this afternoon, how fast will NZ start filling the middle seats?

Good to see JQ has officially started promoting domestic travel again, for travel from the start of July.


Given we're now in Level 1. Today I suppose. There are now 0 restrictions on domestic travel.
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:57 pm

Previously last month a comment was made that half the redundant staff will be hired back or something similar. So the workforce started out pre covid at 12,000 then with 4000 already out and (2000) half coming back will put it up to 10,000. This could not be further from the truth now with an additional 2000 going to save $150m on wages and Foran has said the numbers will end up being "well under half" so we know that he means below 6000. We have to remember that revenue is down 95% so only a 30% cut in staff numbers was far too light and far more have to go. There could even be a third round of redundancies to bring the books in line.
 
GW54
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:21 am

DavidByrne wrote:
GW54 wrote:
This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives. Maybe Winston is right. Get Air NZ back under Govt control. Save jobs and run the Airline for the benefit of New Zealand and not the shareholders.

This is a big statement. Can you provide a source, or is it just typical A-net speculation?


We will never fully understand why the board chose Greg Foran. Clearly they gave him objectives to achieve. In regards to Winston it is public record that he and NZ First believe Air NZ should be under Govt control given some of the decisions that have been, particulary around the domeztic network. Air NZ is a SOE but Winston wants more accountability and control over decision making.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:19 am

GW54 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
GW54 wrote:
This is why Foran was brought in. Covid has made it easier for him to achieve the boards objectives. Maybe Winston is right. Get Air NZ back under Govt control. Save jobs and run the Airline for the benefit of New Zealand and not the shareholders.

This is a big statement. Can you provide a source, or is it just typical A-net speculation?


We will never fully understand why the board chose Greg Foran. Clearly they gave him objectives to achieve. In regards to Winston it is public record that he and NZ First believe Air NZ should be under Govt control given some of the decisions that have been, particulary around the domeztic network. Air NZ is a SOE but Winston wants more accountability and control over decision making.

Just a quick correction: NZ is not strictly a SOE, but a publicly listed company in which the government has a majority shareholding. Personally, I can't see it providing greater accountability to the taxpayers while it's still a publicly listed company, as that would surely create a conflict of interests. I can't see being accountable in the way Winston wants unless it was taken private, which I can't see happening in the foreseeable future.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
tom90
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:50 am

I see AirNZ are going to send their B777 fleet to Alice Springs for deep storage. Anyone know if that includes all the 777W fleet as they have done a fair amount of flying still with cargo etc.
 
User avatar
77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:04 am

tom90 wrote:
I see AirNZ are going to send their B777 fleet to Alice Springs for deep storage. Anyone know if that includes all the 777W fleet as they have done a fair amount of flying still with cargo etc.


The news articles seem to heavily mention the -200ER specifically. It makes sense; the -200ER are much too close to the 789 in terms of capacity and range. I could see an interim fleet of 789 and 77W until the 7810 start to come online. The 77W are cargo beasts and could/are proving very effective at cargo-only flights.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:08 am

Also in the news today is Air NZ will resume flights to Japan with a once weekly service to begin with. This is a good step the Covid situation there is vastly improved from before. Perhaps other routes will come back soon.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:07 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Previously last month a comment was made that half the redundant staff will be hired back or something similar. So the workforce started out pre covid at 12,000 then with 4000 already out and (2000) half coming back will put it up to 10,000. This could not be further from the truth now with an additional 2000 going to save $150m on wages and Foran has said the numbers will end up being "well under half" so we know that he means below 6000. We have to remember that revenue is down 95% so only a 30% cut in staff numbers was far too light and far more have to go. There could even be a third round of redundancies to bring the books in line.


It's not another 2,000 going. That's the media making up "facts' again. The airline has only stated how much more they believe they need to save in labor costs. It never said how many staff are involved.

From that we can only assume they've estimated how many staff it would by using a random salary, no clue where they selected this number from.

I guess if we divide the $150m by the quoted 2,000 that's $75K. Interesting how's it's a perfectly round number don't you think.

A 777 captain isn't on $75K a year I can assure you of that, likewise a qualified aircraft engineer or senior department manager. I'm not suggesting these are the effected workgroups. My point is, without knowing what areas are effected you can't even start playing with numbers.

For the record, I'm not supporting or defending what the airline is doing. It's just a timely reminder to try differentiate fact from fiction.

I'm also struggling to see many other realistic alternatives for keeping the airline alive. Retaining all staff employed for another 2 years will cost somewhere between $2.5b and $3b in wages alone. We'd be looking at a +$4b loan/bailout. I don't even think the airline could repay that at 7% interest!
 
jimmyah
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:25 pm

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Previously last month a comment was made that half the redundant staff will be hired back or something similar. So the workforce started out pre covid at 12,000 then with 4000 already out and (2000) half coming back will put it up to 10,000. This could not be further from the truth now with an additional 2000 going to save $150m on wages and Foran has said the numbers will end up being "well under half" so we know that he means below 6000. We have to remember that revenue is down 95% so only a 30% cut in staff numbers was far too light and far more have to go. There could even be a third round of redundancies to bring the books in line.


It's not another 2,000 going. That's the media making up "facts' again. The airline has only stated how much more they believe they need to save in labor costs. It never said how many staff are involved.

From that we can only assume they've estimated how many staff it would by using a random salary, no clue where they selected this number from.

I guess if we divide the $150m by the quoted 2,000 that's $75K. Interesting how's it's a perfectly round number don't you think.

A 777 captain isn't on $75K a year I can assure you of that, likewise a qualified aircraft engineer or senior department manager. I'm not suggesting these are the effected workgroups. My point is, without knowing what areas are effected you can't even start playing with numbers.

For the record, I'm not supporting or defending what the airline is doing. It's just a timely reminder to try differentiate fact from fiction.

I'm also struggling to see many other realistic alternatives for keeping the airline alive. Retaining all staff employed for another 2 years will cost somewhere between $2.5b and $3b in wages alone. We'd be looking at a +$4b loan/bailout. I don't even think the airline could repay that at 7% interest!


Good analysis. I think the media are jumping on the "Air NZ is bad" theme recently, the articles provide a lot of clicks for them.
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:28 am

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Previously last month a comment was made that half the redundant staff will be hired back or something similar. So the workforce started out pre covid at 12,000 then with 4000 already out and (2000) half coming back will put it up to 10,000. This could not be further from the truth now with an additional 2000 going to save $150m on wages and Foran has said the numbers will end up being "well under half" so we know that he means below 6000. We have to remember that revenue is down 95% so only a 30% cut in staff numbers was far too light and far more have to go. There could even be a third round of redundancies to bring the books in line.


It's not another 2,000 going. That's the media making up "facts' again. The airline has only stated how much more they believe they need to save in labor costs. It never said how many staff are involved.

From that we can only assume they've estimated how many staff it would by using a random salary, no clue where they selected this number from.

I guess if we divide the $150m by the quoted 2,000 that's $75K. Interesting how's it's a perfectly round number don't you think.

A 777 captain isn't on $75K a year I can assure you of that, likewise a qualified aircraft engineer or senior department manager. I'm not suggesting these are the effected workgroups. My point is, without knowing what areas are effected you can't even start playing with numbers.

For the record, I'm not supporting or defending what the airline is doing. It's just a timely reminder to try differentiate fact from fiction.

I'm also struggling to see many other realistic alternatives for keeping the airline alive. Retaining all staff employed for another 2 years will cost somewhere between $2.5b and $3b in wages alone. We'd be looking at a +$4b loan/bailout. I don't even think the airline could repay that at 7% interest!


Well from the interview with Kim hill on checkpoint. I don't know if you watched it for the whole 12 mins. On the numbers of staff they will have ending up with. Foran said it will be well under half of what they had before Covid. So it's really what you want to believe. I am still not convinced that there won't end up with a workforce total of 6000 as that what Foran spoke of in the discussion.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:24 am

NZ516 wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Previously last month a comment was made that half the redundant staff will be hired back or something similar. So the workforce started out pre covid at 12,000 then with 4000 already out and (2000) half coming back will put it up to 10,000. This could not be further from the truth now with an additional 2000 going to save $150m on wages and Foran has said the numbers will end up being "well under half" so we know that he means below 6000. We have to remember that revenue is down 95% so only a 30% cut in staff numbers was far too light and far more have to go. There could even be a third round of redundancies to bring the books in line.


It's not another 2,000 going. That's the media making up "facts' again. The airline has only stated how much more they believe they need to save in labor costs. It never said how many staff are involved.

From that we can only assume they've estimated how many staff it would by using a random salary, no clue where they selected this number from.

I guess if we divide the $150m by the quoted 2,000 that's $75K. Interesting how's it's a perfectly round number don't you think.

A 777 captain isn't on $75K a year I can assure you of that, likewise a qualified aircraft engineer or senior department manager. I'm not suggesting these are the effected workgroups. My point is, without knowing what areas are effected you can't even start playing with numbers.

For the record, I'm not supporting or defending what the airline is doing. It's just a timely reminder to try differentiate fact from fiction.

I'm also struggling to see many other realistic alternatives for keeping the airline alive. Retaining all staff employed for another 2 years will cost somewhere between $2.5b and $3b in wages alone. We'd be looking at a +$4b loan/bailout. I don't even think the airline could repay that at 7% interest!


Well from the interview with Kim hill on checkpoint. I don't know if you watched it for the whole 12 mins. On the numbers of staff they will have ending up with. Foran said it will be well under half of what they had before Covid. So it's really what you want to believe. I am still not convinced that there won't end up with a workforce total of 6000 as that what Foran spoke of in the discussion.

It may well end up that way. What I’m saying is it’s reported as fact when it’s not. It’s a calculated guess.

The fact is it’s still being worked out.
 
zkeoj
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:20 am

zkncj wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
0 new cases and 0 active cases. We should find out at 15.00 when Level 1 is coming. Which is good news for aviation as it removes all restrictions for domestic travel.


And with that announcement this afternoon, how fast will NZ start filling the middle seats?



We flew CHC-AKL yesterday, and many middle seats were booked, so they must have been able to book or move people onto that flight very quickly.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3870
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:48 am

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12339050

Travel between New Zealand and the Cook Islands is allowed from next week! Only catch is New Zealand is requiring an 14 managed isolation on your return still (hopefully this can be dropped)

AKL-RAR could really be an Domestic flight, after all Cook Islanders travel on New Zealand passports and are citizens of New Zealand.
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:33 pm

Covid-19 blamed as Christchurch Engine Centre axes 500 jobs

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zea ... s-500-jobs

This is so sad for the workers affected. I even didn't know they had that many staff working on the engines!
As a worldwide downturn in air travel is upon us. Less flying means less engine maintenance so will have a huge impact going forward.
 
bonzolab
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:38 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:09 pm

Im pretty sure the article says 115/500, not 500 jobs.
 
zktom
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:26 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:16 pm

77west wrote:
tom90 wrote:
I see AirNZ are going to send their B777 fleet to Alice Springs for deep storage. Anyone know if that includes all the 777W fleet as they have done a fair amount of flying still with cargo etc.


The news articles seem to heavily mention the -200ER specifically. It makes sense; the -200ER are much too close to the 789 in terms of capacity and range. I could see an interim fleet of 789 and 77W until the 7810 start to come online. The 77W are cargo beasts and could/are proving very effective at cargo-only flights.


The -200ERs that are leased are being sent to Marana in Arizona at the request of the lessor. It sounds like the 4 Air NZ-owned -200ER frames will most likely head there too. All but 2 or 3 77Ws will go to Alice Springs, the frames remaining in AKL are the older 77Ws due for landing gear overhauls. Once that work is done they will be the only remaining 777s in the fleet for the rest of 2020 at least. They'll be kept online for ad-hoc charter by the sound of things.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3870
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:29 pm

zktom wrote:
77west wrote:
tom90 wrote:
I see AirNZ are going to send their B777 fleet to Alice Springs for deep storage. Anyone know if that includes all the 777W fleet as they have done a fair amount of flying still with cargo etc.


The news articles seem to heavily mention the -200ER specifically. It makes sense; the -200ER are much too close to the 789 in terms of capacity and range. I could see an interim fleet of 789 and 77W until the 7810 start to come online. The 77W are cargo beasts and could/are proving very effective at cargo-only flights.


The -200ERs that are leased are being sent to Marana in Arizona at the request of the lessor. It sounds like the 4 Air NZ-owned -200ER frames will most likely head there too. All but 2 or 3 77Ws will go to Alice Springs, the frames remaining in AKL are the older 77Ws due for landing gear overhauls. Once that work is done they will be the only remaining 777s in the fleet for the rest of 2020 at least. They'll be kept online for ad-hoc charter by the sound of things.


Think is pretty clear the fate on the 77E fleet is now sealed, that they wont be returning to service with NZ (otherwise the 4x owned frames would more likely go to Alice Springs)
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:43 pm

bonzolab wrote:
Im pretty sure the article says 115/500, not 500 jobs.


Very bad error they made with the story title then!
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:15 pm

zkncj wrote:
zktom wrote:
77west wrote:

The news articles seem to heavily mention the -200ER specifically. It makes sense; the -200ER are much too close to the 789 in terms of capacity and range. I could see an interim fleet of 789 and 77W until the 7810 start to come online. The 77W are cargo beasts and could/are proving very effective at cargo-only flights.


The -200ERs that are leased are being sent to Marana in Arizona at the request of the lessor. It sounds like the 4 Air NZ-owned -200ER frames will most likely head there too. All but 2 or 3 77Ws will go to Alice Springs, the frames remaining in AKL are the older 77Ws due for landing gear overhauls. Once that work is done they will be the only remaining 777s in the fleet for the rest of 2020 at least. They'll be kept online for ad-hoc charter by the sound of things.


Think is pretty clear the fate on the 77E fleet is now sealed, that they wont be returning to service with NZ (otherwise the 4x owned frames would more likely go to Alice Springs)


It's very very clear.

The simple version is... the network and schedule won't demand the number of aircraft NZ has available prior to the 78J arriving, even if the borders miraculously opened say on 1st Jan 2021.

Therefore keeping the fleet airworthy or in short term storage in NZ (especially the -200) is a cost the airline simply can't afford.

Disclaimer
  • The 78J delivery time may very well move - but that would not impact what happens to the 772
  • The 1st of Jan is just a random forward date. It's not some type of prediction.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:28 pm

There has been lots of speculation around the 77W replacement in the last year or two, would NZ go with the larger 77X or go Airbus with their A350-1000 or would NZ have a single type widebody aircraft in the form of the 787 for their long haul network.

Has COVID has answered this for us.

Are we going to see the 787-10 kept largely to it's schedule but replace both the 772 and some 77W's with a few more options taken later in the 2020's as global air travel starts to return to pre COVID levels.

Moving from 29 widebody to 22-26 widebody

Now
7x 777-200ER
8x 777-300ER
14x 787-9

Future

8x 787-10
14x 787-9
2-3x 777-300ER (If at all and replaced 2025-2032)
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4521
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:00 pm

NZ6 wrote:
There has been lots of speculation around the 77W replacement in the last year or two, would NZ go with the larger 77X or go Airbus with their A350-1000 or would NZ have a single type widebody aircraft in the form of the 787 for their long haul network.

Has COVID has answered this for us.

Are we going to see the 787-10 kept largely to it's schedule but replace both the 772 and some 77W's with a few more options taken later in the 2020's as global air travel starts to return to pre COVID levels.

Moving from 29 widebody to 22-26 widebody

Now
7x 777-200ER
8x 777-300ER
14x 787-9

Future

8x 787-10
14x 787-9
2-3x 777-300ER (If at all and replaced 2025-2032)

Other way round for the now 777s (8x 77E, 7x 77W).

It quite possibly/probably has made that decision easier.
There are 2 sticking points though. The 789 still doesn’t have the range and payload combination to do ORD and EWR (which have both been discussed by NZ as remaining on the plan). So either they come up with a Code3 (making business and premium both bigger and economy smaller) or Boeing does give a weight bump and perhaps a bit of extra engine improvement (GE). In the short term they can use it while the route is building, but after a few years they’ll be wanting to have full load and freight. There was a ORD-AKL a few months ago that had to spend the first 2 hours of the flight at 26,000ft to be able to make it to AKL with the weather etc. No freight and it wasn’t full. EWR will be worse.

The other sticking point is the eggs in one basket situation. This applies both to issues with an aircraft (as we’ve see with the 787 and the 737Max etc). It also applies to getting the best deal out of the suppliers. Pitting A vs B does get discounts and favourable slots etc. If there is a strong bounce back in aviation (even in 2 years) then that greatly improves the chance of seeing the A350 in NZ colours (all it will take is a vaccine or effective treatment. Also remember all the growth in Nth America happened after the GFC).
14x 789
6x 7810
10x A350
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:06 pm

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300033 ... -of-action

The interesting bit was towards the end.
Mark said deferring the replacement of the 757s had proven to be a good bet because more aircraft would become available as airlines look to sell their planes due to the effect of the coronavirus pandemic.

“I think that’s proven to be a good idea, because one of the things we never anticipated was Covid-19 and Covid-19 now has thrown off a whole whack of aircraft that are now surplus to requirements to the aviation companies that own them.”


It's entirely possible the next government picks up a few frames cheap and modifies them like they did with the 757s.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:33 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
There has been lots of speculation around the 77W replacement in the last year or two, would NZ go with the larger 77X or go Airbus with their A350-1000 or would NZ have a single type widebody aircraft in the form of the 787 for their long haul network.

Has COVID has answered this for us.

Are we going to see the 787-10 kept largely to it's schedule but replace both the 772 and some 77W's with a few more options taken later in the 2020's as global air travel starts to return to pre COVID levels.

Moving from 29 widebody to 22-26 widebody

Now
7x 777-200ER
8x 777-300ER
14x 787-9

Future

8x 787-10
14x 787-9
2-3x 777-300ER (If at all and replaced 2025-2032)

Other way round for the now 777s (8x 77E, 7x 77W).

It quite possibly/probably has made that decision easier.
There are 2 sticking points though. The 789 still doesn’t have the range and payload combination to do ORD and EWR (which have both been discussed by NZ as remaining on the plan). So either they come up with a Code3 (making business and premium both bigger and economy smaller) or Boeing does give a weight bump and perhaps a bit of extra engine improvement (GE). In the short term they can use it while the route is building, but after a few years they’ll be wanting to have full load and freight. There was a ORD-AKL a few months ago that had to spend the first 2 hours of the flight at 26,000ft to be able to make it to AKL with the weather etc. No freight and it wasn’t full. EWR will be worse.

The other sticking point is the eggs in one basket situation. This applies both to issues with an aircraft (as we’ve see with the 787 and the 737Max etc). It also applies to getting the best deal out of the suppliers. Pitting A vs B does get discounts and favourable slots etc. If there is a strong bounce back in aviation (even in 2 years) then that greatly improves the chance of seeing the A350 in NZ colours (all it will take is a vaccine or effective treatment. Also remember all the growth in Nth America happened after the GFC).
14x 789
6x 7810
10x A350

Yip, I meant the other way round, I didn't realize the typo until you pointed it out.

You raise some valid points. It will be interesting to see how the premium market rebounds post COVID. America is key to NZ returning to good health so I fully expect both ORD, EWR to open, although we're a long way away from our next peak season. That'll be NW21/22.

The issue with code-3 will be cost, can NZ afford to refit any -9's? or are they better off using the code-2 with a mask overlay restricting sales for the lighter load. Obviously without additional premium seats that's flushing potential revenue down the drain and increasing your operating cost.

Cost also raises the question around -10 payments and can NZ afford the delivery timeline they currently have or will they need to be deferred.

Personally, I'm optimistic about the future of air travel. I think, it'll be a slow restart and we shouldn't expect too much until 2022 but from there I think we should expect bigger and better things. I wonder if any 77X or A35K order should be explored around this time for delivery 2025+

14* 789
8* 78J
5-8* New aircraft with longer range and higher capacity
 
zkncj
Posts: 3870
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:43 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300033006/both-air-force-jets-spend-two-weeks-simultaneously-out-of-action

The interesting bit was towards the end.
Mark said deferring the replacement of the 757s had proven to be a good bet because more aircraft would become available as airlines look to sell their planes due to the effect of the coronavirus pandemic.

“I think that’s proven to be a good idea, because one of the things we never anticipated was Covid-19 and Covid-19 now has thrown off a whole whack of aircraft that are now surplus to requirements to the aviation companies that own them.”


It's entirely possible the next government picks up a few frames cheap and modifies them like they did with the 757s.


There should be some nice bargains going for 737-9MAX’s at the moment.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:52 pm

People are funny creatures.

So NZ can cram people into 777s, bombard their senses with cringeworthy safety videos, basically steal their money to give to the shareholders and..... the public love them. But when the airline becomes a genuine, and massive victim of events completely beyond their control they suddenly become the bad guy.

Makes no sense. But then I guess human nature often doesn't.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3870
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:23 am

Gasman wrote:
People are funny creatures.

So NZ can cram people into 777s, bombard their senses with cringeworthy safety videos, basically steal their money to give to the shareholders and..... the public love them. But when the airline becomes a genuine, and massive victim of events completely beyond their control they suddenly become the bad guy.

Makes no sense. But then I guess human nature often doesn't.


The whole current situation doesn’t make sense, how one virus can pretty much such the world down.

If people that in happy with NZ, maybe we should let NZ go bust (then see how much they like not having an National Airline).
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2020

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:51 am

Gasman wrote:
People are funny creatures.

So NZ can cram people into 777s, bombard their senses with cringeworthy safety videos, basically steal their money to give to the shareholders and..... the public love them. But when the airline becomes a genuine, and massive victim of events completely beyond their control they suddenly become the bad guy.

Makes no sense. But then I guess human nature often doesn't.


Perhaps, "people" by in large didn't feel crammed into a 777 or feel bombarded with "cringeworthy" safety videos nor do they feel as if their money was stolen. NZ's overall brand pre-COVID was extremely strong and by in large the New Zealand public love the brand. There were many domestic and international awards that reflect that. Perhaps most of it was a-net whining even if it was valid to themselves...

People have a right to be annoyed now though. Who can dispute that.

It's not like my holiday in July that's been cancelled and I can simply re-book now for later. I get a credit I don't want.

I don't want or need 3, 4 or 5 trips to WLG, CHC or ZQN, I want a flight to X destination when I can for the holiday I had planned or to see the family living there etc.

When I can rebook I don't and shouldn't have to pay more. I want to re-book FOC especially if I give you several months notice and it's to the same destination. It's not the time to be making money from these situations.

This along with NZ axing jobs and the non existence of Foran in the public arena has made a very bad situation worse but that's separate to all the hard work done in the years prior.

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