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CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:04 am
by LABA
Per moderator recommendation - new thread on this topic to delink from the recent PIA crash.

I believe not just the cockpit but even the passenger cabin should be under the lens - similar to public transit, trains etc. This will help not just with POV from a fellow passenger conflict but also provide a fuller picture. How many time we see a SJW posting a video without the underlying circumstances?

Extending this to the crew, I feel it will bring a better degree of being professional and assist greatly in post facto investigation. Sure, duration of storage of video, access can be regulated but if it is happening on the ground, why not in the air?

Lastly, as someone pointed out in the other thread - this might help in deciding liability and guilt.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:27 am
by JetBuddy
I think it's a great idea. It's ridiculus this isn't the norm already.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:39 am
by Antarius
No issues here.

The privacy part is overblown, IMO. There's nothing of interest on there save for when an incident occurs. I mean, if someone wants to watch me lounge onboard while watching TV and drinking cognac, by all means go ahead.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:06 am
by Aesma
To me the main thing pilots could do that would lead to trouble is talking during critical phases of flights, and there is already the CVR to pick that up.It has already been the downfall of pilots (when there was no accident or they survived). I really don't see what a camera changes to that equation. Are you worried someone will see you pick your nose ?

It's not like CVRs are listened to for no reason right now.

I also agree that for many investigations it wouldn't change anything, but removing some doubt when it exists, or not having to analyze the sound like crazy to know what the pilots did would help nonetheless.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:42 am
by aaway
I've seen a partial cabin CCTV system onboard the B773s operated by a particular Boeing customer. System monitors both F/C galley & J/C galley(s), F/C cabin & J/C cabin(s). I believe it is an optional feature, not standard equipage.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:14 am
by ironhorse
Doesn't Air China already do this to some extent? I flew with them in December 2019 and I can't remeber the exact wording but the essence was that surveilence in the cabin is in force and that the cabin is seen as public space according to chinese regulations. I did not see any cameras during my flight though...

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:24 am
by canmau
This actually makes a lot of sense to me, if trains and buses have it, why not planes?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:31 am
by pranav7478
this is definitely a great idea. hopefully airlines implement it eventually. they will be very useful. privacy should not be a complaint because they are everywhere on trains and buses and even in the airports. i think cathay pacific already has something like this

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:39 am
by HVN2HEL2LAX
canmau wrote:
This actually makes a lot of sense to me, if trains and buses have it, why not planes?


I could be wrong, but most cameras on those forms of public transportation are monitoring the passengers, not the operator.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:49 am
by c933103
Pretty sure there are now more aircraft with CCTV in cabin than in cockpit?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:11 am
by Toinou
pranav7478 wrote:
this is definitely a great idea. hopefully airlines implement it eventually. they will be very useful. privacy should not be a complaint because they are everywhere on trains and buses and even in the airports. i think cathay pacific already has something like this

I agree that this is already in use in many public transport, so planes shouldn't be treated differently.
I have my reservations about CCTV in public space whatever the type but I think it is part of a much larger debate on privacy that should take place. But this is clearly not the place.

I see only one specific issue with planes: CCTV regulations vary broadly in different states. This is not an issue on domestic flights (though it may be in the US but I don't know) which covers many planes and flights in large states like China or United States. It is much more complicated in places like Europe, where a large share of flights are international (and where most planes used on domestic flights are also used on international ones). I guess it could sometimes be tricky to respect laws from both the origin and destination points that can be contradictory (and I'm even wondering if the state in which airspace the aircraft is may not have a word to say too).

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:17 am
by Polot
Toinou wrote:

I see only one specific issue with planes: CCTV regulations vary broadly in different states. This is not an issue on domestic flights (though it may be in the US but I don't know) which covers many planes and flights in large states like China or United States. It is much more complicated in places like Europe, where a large share of flights are international (and where most planes used on domestic flights are also used on international ones). I guess it could sometimes be tricky to respect laws from both the origin and destination points that can be contradictory (and I'm even wondering if the state in which airspace the aircraft is may not have a word to say too).

It would probably be dependent on the regulations of the country of registration.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:27 am
by Bhoy
Aesma wrote:
To me the main thing pilots could do that would lead to trouble is talking during critical phases of flights, and there is already the CVR to pick that up.It has already been the downfall of pilots (when there was no accident or they survived). I really don't see what a camera changes to that equation. Are you worried someone will see you pick your nose ?

It's not like CVRs are listened to for no reason right now.

I also agree that for many investigations it wouldn't change anything, but removing some doubt when it exists, or not having to analyze the sound like crazy to know what the pilots did would help nonetheless.

Is the thinking behind Cameras in the Cockpit not so that in addition to audio of the CVR, if there had been a crash and the flight crew couldn’t be interrogated, it would help to establish what the crew had been focused on at the critical time - were they looking at dials or going through a QRH - how was the visibility in cases where smoke in the cockpit was reported etc.


As for actual implementation, I’m sure I was on a BA 320 last year that had an advisory notice about CCTV near the Cockpit door so the crew could verify who was trying to access the flight deck before unlocking it rather than using the spy hole. It was one of the Gatwick based second hand G-GAT* ones though, so may not be the usual BA configuration just now (think it had originally been delivered to Latam?)

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:42 am
by jamsco99
A few years ago I flew with tui and announced that the plane is fitted with cctv. It clearly wasnt.
I assume it is just a way to scare people to behave. I think it was a greek island to lgw flight

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:05 pm
by mmo
Bhoy wrote:
Is the thinking behind Cameras in the Cockpit not so that in addition to audio of the CVR, if there had been a crash and the flight crew couldn’t be interrogated, it would help to establish what the crew had been focused on at the critical time - were they looking at dials or going through a QRH - how was the visibility in cases where smoke in the cockpit was reported etc.


As for actual implementation, I’m sure I was on a BA 320 last year that had an advisory notice about CCTV near the Cockpit door so the crew could verify who was trying to access the flight deck before unlocking it rather than using the spy hole. It was one of the Gatwick based second hand G-GAT* ones though, so may not be the usual BA configuration just now (think it had originally been delivered to Latam?)


Just about every operator who uses a reinforced cockpit door has a video system. In fact, I worked for an Asian carrier who had several cameras over the cabin. As far as CCTV in the cockpit, what can you get that you can't get from listening to a CVR? I would argue the CVR is all you really need. They would be worthless in heavy smoke. What sort of privacy guidelines would you impose? I worked for a US 121 carrier who tried to get a CCTV system in the SIM and that did not sit well with ALPA. Why do you need video in a training environment? Also, it certainly isn't conducive to learning. Plus there are too many issues of "people wanting to know" in a large airline and the temptation might be too much for some people.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:05 pm
by InnsbruckFlyer
Some aircraft (E-Jets and 777s are the ones I know of, but there are probably more) already have cameras pointing from the cockpit doorway towards the cabin, and you can see the galley, entryway, and first few rows. It's a great idea, and I hope we see more cameras around airplanes soon. Safety over privacy anyday, imo.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:19 pm
by Eikie
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Some aircraft (E-Jets and 777s are the ones I know of, but there are probably more) already have cameras pointing from the cockpit doorway towards the cabin, and you can see the galley, entryway, and first few rows. It's a great idea, and I hope we see more cameras around airplanes soon. Safety over privacy anyday, imo.

These camera's are meant to be used to verify the area around the cockpit door is empty. If you can see a row of passengers it either only the legs of it is incorrectly installed.
It isn't taped and shouldn't be used to keep an eye on passengers/crew.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:24 pm
by moa999
As above, already cameras in key areas.

While I can see some benefit to extending their use - you've also got questions of who can access them. And often video is no good without audio.
- black box style after an incident
- police/ airport authorities after an onboard incident (like most public transport)
- captain/ fa after suspected smoking in toilets or loss of belongings on an overnight flight

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:32 pm
by DLPMMM
LABA wrote:

I believe not just the cockpit but even the passenger cabin should be under the lens - similar to public transit, trains etc. This will help not just with POV from a fellow passenger conflict but also provide a fuller picture. How many time we see a SJW posting a video without the underlying circumstances?
.


I don’t really see any major benefit to this idea versus the additional costs, but it brings up a bigger question..

SJW?

What is an SJW? ..Slack Jawed Wildebeest?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:44 pm
by Ziyulu
When I traveled in China, I see body cameras on crew.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:48 pm
by ethernal
Sorry but.. what problem are we trying to solve?

I think there is a valid debate around how much monitoring there should be on public transportation (I believe that recording audio goes too far but can see the value of cameras - unfortunately my city is now doing both). That said, there is a huge difference between public transportation and a plane.

First, public transportation is inherently accessible - right or wrong, there tends to be a lot more crime and problems on a train than on a plane. The barriers to entry - and, more importantly, the ability to ban - is far more effective on planes than on trains given that every passenger is known and ticketed for the specific flight.

Secondly, I don't know about you, but there is a huge difference between a 15 minute train ride and a 16 hour overnight flight. I'm not a huge fan of the trend towards "suites" in planes, but there is a reason why some people like it: it gives them a sense of privacy. I don't think most people want a permanent record of them drooling over a plane seat while asleep.

I just honestly don't know what problem statement we're trying to solve here. Like, is there a rash of pickpocketing taking place on planes that I'm not aware of?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:12 pm
by blandy62
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:25 pm
by mmo
blandy62 wrote:
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say


Really???? Can you provide a source for your statement? Let's see a CCTV system put into an operating room or even a voice recorder which also records any data from equipment hooked up!! Or how about putting a CCTV into an attorney's conference room or office! I think the current system works fine the way it is. Better yet, why don't we put a CCTV into the airline's CEO's office or board room. When that happens I will agree to put a CCTV in the cockpit.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:42 pm
by Insertnamehere
mmo wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say


Really???? Can you provide a source for your statement? Let's see a CCTV system put into an operating room or even a voice recorder which also records any data from equipment hooked up!! Or how about putting a CCTV into an attorney's conference room or office! I think the current system works fine the way it is. Better yet, why don't we put a CCTV into the airline's CEO's office or board room. When that happens I will agree to put a CCTV in the cockpit.


CCTV already exists in train cabs, buses, why not in cockpits or the rest of the aircraft.

The bigger issue is the technology aspect, Recording video takes up a lot of storage space, especially if you want to record a bunch of different angles at any decent resolution. While modern NVR equipment can have you be able to overwrite, its still going to need terabytes of storage space. Typical HDDs won't handle the vibrations and SSDs are overly expensive to deploy. These aren't impossible hurdles to cross by any stretch, they are solvable relatively easily, but they are expensive workarounds that I doubt airline, aircraft manufacturers, or even regulators want to deal with them until it becomes 100% necessary.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:16 pm
by SEA
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Some aircraft (E-Jets and 777s are the ones I know of, but there are probably more) already have cameras pointing from the cockpit doorway towards the cabin, and you can see the galley, entryway, and first few rows. It's a great idea, and I hope we see more cameras around airplanes soon. Safety over privacy anyday, imo.


I've seen it on Dreamliners too.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:02 pm
by danirich26
The A320's i fly (or at this point it's more like used to fly :roll: ) all have a camera system available for us to view in the cockpit, the cameras are watching from the cockpit door into the cabin and one each above L1/R1 to monitor, it's for when we want to go out or let someone in to check nobody is hiding around the corner, these are live feed only and have no recording feature. Other than that i'm not aware of any aircraft having CCTV in the cabin, other than the cameras that come installed in some new IFE systems (but are mostly disabled by airlines that have them)

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:13 pm
by mmo
Insertnamehere wrote:
CCTV already exists in train cabs, buses, why not in cockpits or the rest of the aircraft.

The bigger issue is the technology aspect, Recording video takes up a lot of storage space, especially if you want to record a bunch of different angles at any decent resolution. While modern NVR equipment can have you be able to overwrite, it's still going to need terabytes of storage space. Typical HDDs won't handle the vibrations and SSDs are overly expensive to deploy. These aren't impossible hurdles to cross by any stretch, they are solvable relatively easily, but they are expensive workarounds that I doubt airline, aircraft manufacturers, or even regulators want to deal with them until it becomes 100% necessary.


I am not so sure it is a prevalent as you think it is. I know several countries that don't have CCTV in the driver's cab of a bus. What about truck drivers, should we install it in the cabs? What about when they go to sleep or are on their rest break? Just because they have doesn't make it a good idea. As I used to tell my now-adult kids, "if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?" I am sorry, but I feel the CVR is good enough to capture what went on in the cockpit and CCTV would raise more questions than answer.
It doesn't need terabytes of storage, it is simply downloaded to the cloud or on a company server and stored for a specified number of days until it is either need or reaches the expiry date.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:15 pm
by Eikie
blandy62 wrote:
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say

Maybe where you live, but my country still has quite rigorous privacy laws.
You have to have very good reasons to install a camera on the work floor and do that so it minimzes the exposure of the workers.
And most often, those camera's are not in, for example, a break room or cafetaria. When on a break, a worker has some privacy, something a camera in the cockpit or galley doesn't provide.
Also in most/all transport, the camera's are not taping the staff, but (a part of) the passenger area.

So, at least here, there must be a really good reason to install Them, and frankly, I dont see it.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:16 pm
by NYCAAer
I thought JetBlue already had CCTVs on all its aircraft to monitor the cabin. It used to be in the press releases years ago after 9/11 because security was on everyone’s mind when flying back then. And if I’m not mistaken, I believe AA has them in the forward galley of the 787s.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:55 pm
by Insertnamehere
mmo wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
CCTV already exists in train cabs, buses, why not in cockpits or the rest of the aircraft.

The bigger issue is the technology aspect, Recording video takes up a lot of storage space, especially if you want to record a bunch of different angles at any decent resolution. While modern NVR equipment can have you be able to overwrite, it's still going to need terabytes of storage space. Typical HDDs won't handle the vibrations and SSDs are overly expensive to deploy. These aren't impossible hurdles to cross by any stretch, they are solvable relatively easily, but they are expensive workarounds that I doubt airline, aircraft manufacturers, or even regulators want to deal with them until it becomes 100% necessary.


I am not so sure it is a prevalent as you think it is. I know several countries that don't have CCTV in the driver's cab of a bus. What about truck drivers, should we install it in the cabs? What about when they go to sleep or are on their rest break? Just because they have doesn't make it a good idea. As I used to tell my now-adult kids, "if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?" I am sorry, but I feel the CVR is good enough to capture what went on in the cockpit and CCTV would raise more questions than answer.
It doesn't need terabytes of storage, it is simply downloaded to the cloud or on a company server and stored for a specified number of days until it is either need or reaches the expiry date.


You're equating pilots to truck drivers which doesn't make much sense. Pilots aren't living in the cockpit, they are working and are under the company's dime to fly an aircraft for a certain amount of hours, that is not the same as a truck driver who is living in the truck of a cab which, by the way, is being tracked 24/7 by the company under GPS. While not the same, it also provides a similar level of scrutiny of what the operators of the vehicle are doing with a company asset.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:42 pm
by pune
Insertnamehere wrote:
You're equating pilots to truck drivers which doesn't make much sense. Pilots aren't living in the cockpit, they are working and are under the company's dime to fly an aircraft for a certain amount of hours, that is not the same as a truck driver who is living in the truck of a cab which, by the way, is being tracked 24/7 by the company under GPS. While not the same, it also provides a similar level of scrutiny of what the operators of the vehicle are doing with a company asset.


If I'm not mistaken, there is/was supposed to be some sort of tamper-proof GPS in civil aviation aircraft by 2022. So any crashes and people and things are more accountable so that crashes like MH370 don't become a mystery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_ ... Flight_370

While I don't see much of an issue either installing it or not on domestic planes, on international flights, it maybe another thing altogether. Longer flights do have risk of flight rage and things like that. But it wouldn't stop any terrorist activity or anything like that. I am and would be more interested as to the status of the tamper-proof GPS which is supposedly going to be mandatory from next year or year after that.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:48 pm
by Insertnamehere
pune wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
You're equating pilots to truck drivers which doesn't make much sense. Pilots aren't living in the cockpit, they are working and are under the company's dime to fly an aircraft for a certain amount of hours, that is not the same as a truck driver who is living in the truck of a cab which, by the way, is being tracked 24/7 by the company under GPS. While not the same, it also provides a similar level of scrutiny of what the operators of the vehicle are doing with a company asset.


If I'm not mistaken, there is/was supposed to be some sort of tamper-proof GPS in civil aviation aircraft by 2022. So any crashes and people and things are more accountable so that crashes like MH370 don't become a mystery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_ ... Flight_370

While I don't see much of an issue either installing it or not on domestic planes, on international flights, it maybe another thing altogether. Longer flights do have risk of flight rage and things like that. But it wouldn't stop any terrorist activity or anything like that. I am and would be more interested as to the status of the tamper-proof GPS which is supposedly going to be mandatory from next year or year after that.


Its not going to stop terrorist activity, but it will also help these he-said/ she-said incidents where sexual assault goes unnoticed, or other small incidents that would be put to rest with CCTV or other camera systems in the aircraft.

I will agree though, always-on GPS (or even using other constellations such as GLONASS/Galileo/whatever China is building for redundancy) is going to do so much more in terms of tracking and helping with safety and recovery of aircraft.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:22 pm
by ltbewr
As to CCTV in the cockpit, I am quite sure some airlines have them, like possibly El Al due to extreme security needs and others due to draconian monitoring of pilots. I can understand the dislike of them as none of us want to be watched all the time at work.
As to CCTV in areas near the cockpit - no problem to see who might be entering or leaving the area with bad intentions, and before opening the cockpit door to authorized persons.
As to CCTV in passenger areas, recordings could be used for investigations of bad behavior like drunks or an overzealous crew.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:07 am
by mmo
Insertnamehere wrote:

You're equating pilots to truck drivers which doesn't make much sense. Pilots aren't living in the cockpit, they are working and are under the company's dime to fly an aircraft for a certain amount of hours, that is not the same as a truck driver who is living in the truck of a cab which, by the way, is being tracked 24/7 by the company under GPS. While not the same, it also provides a similar level of scrutiny of what the operators of the vehicle are doing with a company asset.


Ok, but not all truck drivers have sleeping facilities in their trucks. So, I guess I don't get your point. How about we try something like a surgeon having CCTV monitoring in the OR? Or better yet, install CCTV in the airline's CEO office. My point was there are already enough devices to monitor what happens in a cockpit. Installing a CVR would not provide any further improvements.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:40 am
by bluecrew
NYCAAer wrote:
I thought JetBlue already had CCTVs on all its aircraft to monitor the cabin. It used to be in the press releases years ago after 9/11 because security was on everyone’s mind when flying back then. And if I’m not mistaken, I believe AA has them in the forward galley of the 787s.

Not true.
It is not CCTV.
It is the same system described numerous times here. It is just a simple camera system to ensure the galley area is secure so the FD door can be opened. It doesn't record.


On a more broad note... what are half of you getting at, that this is some sort of critical thing needed on planes? For what? To prove someone wrong with a spotty, grainy camera that hardly shows anything going on? Think of the aspect you'd get from putting it on the cabin ceiling. You can't capture the seats, the bins are in the way. You could put it in the PSUs every few rows... that would only take, what... 100 cameras to cover the cabin?
And for what? So when someone posts a subjective video on YouTube you can fight it with an audio-less video showing half the altercation? This is a very stupid idea.
Not only that, but go talk to a flight attendant about this. I think you'll find 99% of them to be vehemently opposed. Nothing like bringing cameras into the workplace to enable more absurd performance management.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:14 am
by Toinou
Polot wrote:
Toinou wrote:

I see only one specific issue with planes: CCTV regulations vary broadly in different states. This is not an issue on domestic flights (though it may be in the US but I don't know) which covers many planes and flights in large states like China or United States. It is much more complicated in places like Europe, where a large share of flights are international (and where most planes used on domestic flights are also used on international ones). I guess it could sometimes be tricky to respect laws from both the origin and destination points that can be contradictory (and I'm even wondering if the state in which airspace the aircraft is may not have a word to say too).

It would probably be dependent on the regulations of the country of registration.


I guess it's a possibility. But it may cause some frictions when referring to some countries with "different" approach on privacy, like China. I know that if you are on a Chinese plane in another country, you are probably going to or from China, so it probably doesn't really matter to you if you're submitted to Chinese law a bit earlier but I'm trying to imagine what the debate would look like in some countries if some media start to talk about that. Legally speaking, it would be rather easy to sort out, politically, not so much.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:32 am
by Noshow
Passenger cabins and aisles/galleys today are monitored in flight per CCTV on many aircraft. Why shouldn't this be extended to the cockpit where it makes actual sense?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:18 am
by mmo
Noshow wrote:
Passenger cabins and aisles/galleys today are monitored in flight per CCTV on many aircraft. Why shouldn't this be extended to the cockpit where it makes actual sense?


Again, why? What is the overriding need? What information do you hope to get that can't be found in a CVR transcript?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:26 am
by Noshow
You can see where people looked to, you can see what switches and instruments they manipulated and how they worked together and what was their state of mind in general. However I am not promoting to sell these films to tv news. But there are a few accidents where a cockpit film would be helpful. Just think about the value of dashcams in cars.

Going further why not show permanent live-cockpit pictures and sounds (outside comms only) inside the cabin of the relevant flight? In every bus you can see what the driver is doing. Couldn't this be helpful against fear of flying and bring back the fascination of flight?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:53 am
by Eikie
Noshow wrote:
Passenger cabins and aisles/galleys today are monitored in flight per CCTV on many aircraft. Why shouldn't this be extended to the cockpit where it makes actual sense?

Because they aren't monitored.
At least, I know of no (western) airline which records camera's in the cabin or galley. In fact, I know of no airlines which has camera's aimed straight at or in the cabin, but I might be wrong there.

The reason camera's are pointes to the forward galley, is to see if the cockpit door area is clear. That is the only reason they are there, to improve safety after 9/11.
They aren't recorded so no use for unruly pax, theft, or any other reason.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:12 am
by blandy62
mmo wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say


Really???? Can you provide a source for your statement? Let's see a CCTV system put into an operating room or even a voice recorder which also records any data from equipment hooked up!! Or how about putting a CCTV into an attorney's conference room or office! I think the current system works fine the way it is. Better yet, why don't we put a CCTV into the airline's CEO's office or board room. When that happens I will agree to put a CCTV in the cockpit.


Most manufacturing outfits I know have CCTV to monitor what happens on the floor and it can be and it is used to track operator not performing for instance.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:33 am
by blandy62
Eikie wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
In most industry people are already under cctv monitoring, so why not airlines staff? Passengers, aren’t they already under it désulfites what airlines say

Maybe where you live, but my country still has quite rigorous privacy laws.
You have to have very good reasons to install a camera on the work floor and do that so it minimzes the exposure of the workers.
And most often, those camera's are not in, for example, a break room or cafetaria. When on a break, a worker has some privacy, something a camera in the cockpit or galley doesn't provide.
Also in most/all transport, the camera's are not taping the staff, but (a part of) the passenger area.

So, at least here, there must be a really good reason to install Them, and frankly, I dont see it.


We are going out of topic here but I totally get your point but on the other end we know that our employers are recording everything we do with our computers. Everything we do with our devices, credit cards .... is recorded too somewhere. So no images is recorded but our digital footprint is even worse

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:37 am
by Insertnamehere
mmo wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

You're equating pilots to truck drivers which doesn't make much sense. Pilots aren't living in the cockpit, they are working and are under the company's dime to fly an aircraft for a certain amount of hours, that is not the same as a truck driver who is living in the truck of a cab which, by the way, is being tracked 24/7 by the company under GPS. While not the same, it also provides a similar level of scrutiny of what the operators of the vehicle are doing with a company asset.


Ok, but not all truck drivers have sleeping facilities in their trucks. So, I guess I don't get your point. How about we try something like a surgeon having CCTV monitoring in the OR? Or better yet, install CCTV in the airline's CEO office. My point was there are already enough devices to monitor what happens in a cockpit. Installing a CVR would not provide any further improvements.


It really does though, we learn a lot of what people are thinking through their non-verbal actions that may not be picked up on a cockpit voice recorder. Again you are looking back at CCTV in offices and operating theaters. For one for surgery, HIPAA exists making that illogical at best, while many surgeries are filmed for educational purposes, these are opt-in situations. As for CEOs that involves perhaps disclosing trade secrets or other critical information making corporate security paramount.

As for CCTV in cockpits, that's not the same. I don't completely understand your arguments against CCTV in cockpits as it gives an extra factor of information in the decision making and mental state crew are in before/during an incident takes place.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:26 am
by mmo
blandy62 wrote:

Most manufacturing outfits I know have CCTV to monitor what happens on the floor and it can be and it is used to track operator not performing for instance.


And I would be willing to bet they are non-union facilities. And if they are used to justify a track operator not performing then that would precisely why they shouldn't be used in the cockpit. We are going to have "cockpit flows" scrutinized and people chastised for not performing them properly? That is a complete waste of time and money. As I pointed out before, I worked for a large 121 carrier with red tails who wanted to use CCTV in the simulator. That died a very quick death when ALPA dug it's heels in and determined the real reason was to use the videos for potential disciplinary action. And you are justifying the use of CCTVs for the exact same thing. As long as the number of takeoffs and landings are equal and no limits are busted, we can thank glass cockpits for the snitch function, what difference does CCTVs make? None!


Insertnamehere wrote:

It really does though, we learn a lot of what people are thinking through their non-verbal actions that may not be picked up on a cockpit voice recorder. Again you are looking back at CCTV in offices and operating theaters. For one for surgery, HIPAA exists making that illogical at best, while many surgeries are filmed for educational purposes, these are opt-in situations. As for CEOs that involves perhaps disclosing trade secrets or other critical information making corporate security paramount.



As for CCTV in cockpits, that's not the same. I don't completely understand your arguments against CCTV in cockpits as it gives an extra factor of information in the decision making and mental state crew are in before/during an incident takes place.


First of all, you are talking about an office which is many times larger than a cockpit. Body language is not a big factor in determining what people are thinking. The conversation tells many more tales than the body language does. You are bringing up HIPAA and saying my suggestion is "illogical at best". I would say it makes perfect sense, especially in a malpractice lawsuit. I would argue your objections are illogical also. You write as if there is some level of privacy in the OR which the flight deck doesn't deserve too. That very issue is why CVR tapes are protected so vigorously. There is a PRIVACY ISSUE. Just like the OR or an airline's CEO, there is a degree of privacy that needs to be protected. So, your justification in favor of is really a justification for not allowing.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:14 pm
by MIflyer12
Insertnamehere wrote:
[
CCTV already exists in train cabs, buses, why not in cockpits or the rest of the aircraft.


Why not? Because pilots (generally) don't want it. Performance monitoring is a very touchy subject. IMHO you won't get HD video and audio recordings for the duration of flight in the U.S. unless the FAA mandates it.

There's big variation in the nature of debate that has (or hasn't occurred) around the use of video in public. One could argue the UK uses it extensively but had done so without much debate. In other places the political system doesn't allow for open debate.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:45 pm
by zeke
MIflyer12 wrote:
Why not? Because pilots (generally) don't want it. Performance monitoring is a very touchy subject. IMHO you won't get HD video and audio recordings for the duration of flight in the U.S. unless the FAA mandates it.


I think you will find that the FAA does not want this (have a look at what their mandate is), the pilots have no real say.

No one has actually stated what the apparent issue/problem is to demonstrate that CCTV is actually a solution to that issue/problem.

One is far more likely to die driving to the airport than on a flight, yet we do not have CCTV in cars.

The other issue that no one has touched on is the international implications of the data, in many countries accidents and incidents are not investigated by safety focused organisations like the NTSB, they are handled by the police, and this first action after an accident/incident is for the crew to be arrested.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:56 pm
by LABA
Couple of points here. Storage is generally not the issue. With the current technology, stream the data real time from the flight and store in onboard and on land/cloud. With Wifi access becoming more popular, techies can comment on data compression and burst transmission.
Privacy is a different ball game and that might require a more regulated approach. But as I've stated in the other thread - It's a question of Safety v/s Privacy. All public places in most countries have CCTVs in place. It's a question of defining what an airplane in the sky is.
Lastly - FDR and CVR provide data and audio. An image is worth 1000 words.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:58 pm
by mmo
LABA wrote:
Lastly - FDR and CVR provide data and audio. An image is worth 1000 words.

Not really, especially in aviation. A CVR transcript is worth its weight in gold. It is fair and impartial. Plus, where is the need for a CVR?

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:07 pm
by readytotaxi
If airlines are going to install CCTV doubt they would be able to inforce no trip report photos by customers.

Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:23 pm
by LABA
mmo wrote:
LABA wrote:
Lastly - FDR and CVR provide data and audio. An image is worth 1000 words.

Not really, especially in aviation. A CVR transcript is worth its weight in gold. It is fair and impartial. Plus, where is the need for a CVR?


I presume here you refer to Cockpit Video Recorder? I've always believed a video is a better alternative to audio, all other parameters allowing. That is why you have reverse cameras (as opposed to audio signals), dashcams, public cctv, home security. Even space missions have cameras all over the place. Why are airplanes special?. As said before, technology is no longer a challenge. Cost is irrelevant as well. Agreed, all this needs to be tested and vetted, but should be an option. I fail to understand the reluctance to go ahead with this.