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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:33 pm

bkmbr wrote:

Image
keesje
This is a huge airplane, almost the size of a 737-800NG or an Antonov AN-12. I don't know if the market would be able to accept a turboprop this big.


An empty paper over a drawing board (or an AutoCad in this days) accepts anything ...
 
Vicenza
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:44 pm

Noshow wrote:
As I know/have heard, the rotor engine combination is just to loud for the civil market and latest with next tightening up of laws and global agreements in 2025/2027? or so, it will not any more applicable for new build civil passenger planes. This tightening up of laws and agreements regarding loudness will likely also kill other projects like the propfan developments.


That's interesting. Killing new, more efficient technologies in the name of environmental protection.


Yes, but "new, more efficient technologies" only benefit those making money from them, and they couldn't care less about the much wider effects.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:53 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
It reminded me of a new entrant back to 70´s fighting Boeing, Mcdonnell-Douglas and Lockheed ...


If you have massive government funding as Airbus had the things gets a lot easier.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:20 am

bkmbr wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think Embraer has witnessed that if you go head to head with Airbus or Boeing you better have a lot of time, political back-up and money.

Image
keesje

So far Embraer has been smart enough to stay away there. Even to make the KC390 a succes, they realize they might need a partner.


This is a huge airplane, almost the size of a 737-800NG or an Antonov AN-12. I don't know if the market would be able to accept a turboprop this big.


This concept would be some kind of "kiss of death" to almost any aircaft constructor.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:29 am

bkmbr wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Time to think bigger. Otherwise, as I said, we will continue to "eat at the edge of the plate".
I don´t believe anymore in this stuff "niche markets": as the word means, niche is just a small portion, when you think "niche" you think "small niche money" ...
The KC-390 was a big step up and ahead for Embraer. And it is there ...


I don't see why to be honest. To think bigger you need to take bigger risks and bigger risks means that if something went wrong you can bankrupt the company, take Lockheed and its L-1011 for example. Bigger is not always better, is better to be a third place with a solid market position than to try to be first and end up bankrupting the company down the road. Bombardier learned this lesson in a very bitter way.

EMBSPBR wrote:
The 73X it will need a replacement project in 10 yers or less. Maybe for the A32X family in 15 ou 20 years.
For the MC-21 and C919, both will sell to their sphere of political influence. It hurts mainly Boeing and Airbus.


And all four you mention also have governments willing to put large sums of money in those companies to keep them afloat even if the project doesn't succeed, but that's not the case with Embraer. IMHO there's no significant gain to be made in this market now and in the near future, so why commit the future of the company in a project like that? Embraer doesn't have de money to enter in an adventure like that at the moment, so trying to compete with Boeing and Airbus head on is a suicidal proposal.

EMBSPBR wrote:
Nope. Lots of second hand aircrafts to be or being converted from passenger to freighters ...


The civilian KC-390 would have advantages that no converted plane could offer, like the rear loading ramp. The only real competitor for the civilian KC-390 would be the Lockheed L-100J and the KC-390 have a clear advantage compared to it. The kind of loads a KC390 could handle are completely different from the loads of converted passenger airplanes could handle.


Embraer probably could do an A320/22 competitor in less time than Boeing using half of the budget. If all competitors use taxpayers money why Brazil could not learn one or two tricks? Why not wellcome well paid jobs?
 
bkmbr
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:52 am

Embraer undoubtedly has the technical capacity to make such a plane, but today it has nowhere near the financial support needed to do this. The Brazilian government and economy has been in bad shape lately and this would require a very large support that serves as a safety net for the company, and I don't know if with the current government in power this would be feasible. In fact, I believe more and more that at end this is what Boeing wanted, a subcontractor with competence to develop the NSA / FSA while it could focus on the NMA.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:07 am

bkmbr wrote:
Embraer undoubtedly has the technical capacity to make such a plane, but today it has nowhere near the financial support needed to do this. The Brazilian government and economy has been in bad shape lately and this would require a very large support that serves as a safety net for the company, and I don't know if with the current government in power this would be feasible. In fact, I believe more and more that at end this is what Boeing wanted, a subcontractor with competence to develop the NSA / FSA while it could focus on the NMA.


If you think that a broken cristal could be repaired... I don't.
After Covid19, USD 3 billions became peanuts.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:35 am

Even though I still think that the Embraer-Boeing JV would still be beneficial for both sides, even after everything that happened, I know that this ship has sailed. The chances of this agreement coming back, even in new financial terms, are zero. I never had that illusion.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:12 am

T4thH wrote:
Second: Turboprops above 90 PAX lose the benefit in comparison to jets and turboprop engines for above 100 PAX planes do not work any more. This is just physic, please just believe it, it will be pages after pages to explain it in detail (and this I will not do). So, if Embraer will construct a new turboprop, it will be an ATR-42/72 competitor most likely so for the 50 to 90 PAX market.


I do not believe without evidence. Where is the physics?
I know that propellers lose their advantage at longer ranges, but why the size? Is it just the typical correlation between size and range?

Most 737 flights are about 1 hour and at those distances the speed is not yet that decisive. Keep in mind the huge ecological pressure (quite justified, IMO) that may lead to banning short flights in favour of trains. Flying more ecological planes may be the only way so save flying.

Sure there is an engineering gap as PW150 may be too weak and old and civilized Europrop would make sense only for >200 pax propliners, but there should be some incentives to develop a suitable engine.
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:00 pm

YIMBY wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Second: Turboprops above 90 PAX lose the benefit in comparison to jets and turboprop engines for above 100 PAX planes do not work any more. This is just physic, please just believe it, it will be pages after pages to explain it in detail (and this I will not do). So, if Embraer will construct a new turboprop, it will be an ATR-42/72 competitor most likely so for the 50 to 90 PAX market.


I do not believe without evidence. Where is the physics?
I know that propellers lose their advantage at longer ranges, but why the size? Is it just the typical correlation between size and range?

Most 737 flights are about 1 hour and at those distances the speed is not yet that decisive. Keep in mind the huge ecological pressure (quite justified, IMO) that may lead to banning short flights in favour of trains. Flying more ecological planes may be the only way so save flying.

Sure there is an engineering gap as PW150 may be too weak and old and civilized Europrop would make sense only for >200 pax propliners, but there should be some incentives to develop a suitable engine.


There is a bigger TP under development for years already by Pratt Canada. ~4,500-7,000shp, delivering up to 20% lower fuel burn than "current engines". I assume Embraer, LM, Leonardo were seen as possible launching customers. https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 01.article. Embraer planned to use the E-jet fusealge for a fast, 100 seat TP.

Image
https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/24/pw-ca ... certainty/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:10 pm

A really green TP, even better with hybrid technology (recover energy during approach similar to a ram-air turbine) and then using the excess energy again during take off) would be a perfect fit for the European market, especially if it sits 150 people. Most trunk routes are really short and with future restrictions and enough fuel savings and emission reduction a lean TP could serve the following markets perfectly:
LHR-CDG
LHR-AMS
LHR-DUB
LHR-MAN
LHR-EDI
LHR-GLA
LHR-BFS
LHR-AMS
LHR-ZRH
LHR-MUC
LHR-BCA

and that is only really big routes from LHR. If you reduce operating costs by 30+% the additional 15-30min of flying will not be a big deal. The market is there but the efficiency gains have to be large enough and certain commonality would be good.

Is it remotely possible to have cockpit commonality of a TP with an E90 or an A220 (depending on who will build one)?
 
sailsail
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:10 pm

UPNYGuy wrote:
sailsail wrote:
I flew a TBM from DFW to Houston cheaper than AA and no TSA to worry about.


To me, TBM = tunnel boring machine. I had an interesting mental picture to go with this statement, that is for sure. :bouncy:

Lol.

But seriously I feel the 135 world might make a big comeback.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:18 pm

Well, after BBD's utter failure, if Embraer feels ready to go, please, try. However unpleasant were some of EMBSPB's comments about the CSeries, I wish you success. Embraer can hardly be as mismanaged as BBD was.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:51 pm

Please some specifics on BBD mismanagement? True, the C-Series was launched from a very small capital base and the company was seriously under capitalized for its ambition. The Lear 85 was the real mistake and should never have been launched.

That aside, the A220 with Airbus’ supply chain muscle and capital should make it long-term success. The design turned out to meet all the original specs. It proved the systems and FBW for the Global7500.

There wasn’t much to do with the CRJ, so it reached a dead end. Now, if they’d launched the BRJ-X, they would have had E170 before the E170.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:48 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Please some specifics on BBD mismanagement? True, the C-Series was launched from a very small capital base and the company was seriously under capitalized for its ambition.


You ended up answering your question. Knowing how big a project you can do based on the capital you have at hand is a basic thing for any responsible business administrator. This, in fact, is one of the things that Embraer has shown so far that it does very well, does not try to take steps bigger than its own legs. The C-Series may be a technically very good plane, but in terms of management it was a monstrous failure since, in practice, it led Bombardier to bankruptcy even though it sold the project to Airbus.
 
ewt340
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:34 am

FluidFlow wrote:
A really green TP, even better with hybrid technology (recover energy during approach similar to a ram-air turbine) and then using the excess energy again during take off) would be a perfect fit for the European market, especially if it sits 150 people. Most trunk routes are really short and with future restrictions and enough fuel savings and emission reduction a lean TP could serve the following markets perfectly:
LHR-CDG
LHR-AMS
LHR-DUB
LHR-MAN
LHR-EDI
LHR-GLA
LHR-BFS
LHR-AMS
LHR-ZRH
LHR-MUC
LHR-BCA

and that is only really big routes from LHR. If you reduce operating costs by 30+% the additional 15-30min of flying will not be a big deal. The market is there but the efficiency gains have to be large enough and certain commonality would be good.

Is it remotely possible to have cockpit commonality of a TP with an E90 or an A220 (depending on who will build one)?


On such short routes. The flying time might actually be the same as A320 or B737.
Flight duration for 1-2 hours flights would only have 5-10 minutes longer flight time at most.

15-30 minutes is a bit of a stretch.
 
ELBOB
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:44 am

TonyClifton wrote:
Need something with more robust icing capabilities than the ATR. Ultimately are a get out of jail card, but not something you want to hang all day in upstate New York in a blizzard on.


The ATR series meets or exceeds all icing certification. Can you show otherwise?

Yes, if you operate an aircraft in extreme icing beyond any sensible limits it will fail. The same applies for the CRJ; Bombardier has extensive procedures for managing icing and, of course, placarded limits. I can think of one TO accident with the CRJ that involved wing ice, without even searching.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:54 pm

bkmbr wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Please some specifics on BBD mismanagement? True, the C-Series was launched from a very small capital base and the company was seriously under capitalized for its ambition.


You ended up answering your question. Knowing how big a project you can do based on the capital you have at hand is a basic thing for any responsible business administrator. This, in fact, is one of the things that Embraer has shown so far that it does very well, does not try to take steps bigger than its own legs. The C-Series may be a technically very good plane, but in terms of management it was a monstrous failure since, in practice, it led Bombardier to bankruptcy even though it sold the project to Airbus.


And sometimes the gamble is worth it, sometimes not. A320 vs. A380
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:06 pm

Image
keesje

“This concept would be some kind of "kiss of death" to almost any aircraft constructor.” This quote is so correct.

A modern turboprop jetliner, this aircraft concept may be, but it is NOT by any means “a modern LOOKING turboprop jetliner, passengers will “embrace” over a EMB 175 E2 short-haul jet airliner, Boeing, or A220.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:19 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Image
keesje

“This concept would be some kind of "kiss of death" to almost any aircraft constructor.” This quote is so correct.

A modern turboprop jetliner, this aircraft concept may be, but it is NOT by any means “a modern LOOKING turboprop jetliner, passengers will “embrace” over a EMB 175 E2 short-haul jet airliner, Boeing, or A220.


KlimaBXsst, nobody is claiming this to be a "a modern LOOKING turboprop jetliner, passengers will “embrace”. I don't know where you got that qoute from.

I put a TP around two Existing Europrops for fun, more than a decade ago. Years later the same with a 7 abreast standing cabin ECR-20. Just fun.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:09 pm

It is very unlikely that we will see any day such enormous capacity gap. From 70 passenger ATR-72 to a Turboliner with 170 seats, using a very complex engine. It seem more sensible a family (Embraer 180/5) adopting a new generation PW turboprop and employing the E2 fuselage. Maybe two versions: A.High performance 76 seats and B.Best CASM with 100 seats.
 
Sokes
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:10 pm

Nean1 wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think Embraer has witnessed that if you go head to head with Airbus or Boeing you better have a lot of time, political back-up and money.

Image
keesje

So far Embraer has been smart enough to stay away there. Even to make the KC390 a succes, they realize they might need a partner.


This is a huge airplane, almost the size of a 737-800NG or an Antonov AN-12. I don't know if the market would be able to accept a turboprop this big.


This concept would be some kind of "kiss of death" to almost any aircaft constructor.

Why?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:22 pm

Sokes wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
bkmbr wrote:

This is a huge airplane, almost the size of a 737-800NG or an Antonov AN-12. I don't know if the market would be able to accept a turboprop this big.


This concept would be some kind of "kiss of death" to almost any aircaft constructor.

Why?


Because of 1. obvious engine inadequacy (maintenance and noise) and 2.lack of family communality regarding fuselage. 3. Unknow consumer aceptance in competitive routes.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:53 pm

ELBOB wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Need something with more robust icing capabilities than the ATR. Ultimately are a get out of jail card, but not something you want to hang all day in upstate New York in a blizzard on.


The ATR series meets or exceeds all icing certification. Can you show otherwise?

Yes, if you operate an aircraft in extreme icing beyond any sensible limits it will fail. The same applies for the CRJ; Bombardier has extensive procedures for managing icing and, of course, placarded limits. I can think of one TO accident with the CRJ that involved wing ice, without even searching.

Certification yes, but the ATR has undeniably had more icing issues than any modern jet family. A future turboprop aiming for a market in the US would need something more robust than boots. I’m leaning towards electrical like the 787.
 
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JBo
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:29 pm

My biggest question: Are they looking at a clean-sheet design, or a design based off of the E120?

I would think that something based off of the 120 would be cheaper to develop, and there WILL be a niche for smaller turboprop airliners in the coming years.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:46 pm

JBo wrote:
My biggest question: Are they looking at a clean-sheet design, or a design based off of the E120?

I would think that something based off of the 120 would be cheaper to develop, and there WILL be a niche for smaller turboprop airliners in the coming years.


They were looking at using the 4 abreast, double bubble E-jet fuselage & cockpit.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:48 pm

ELBOB wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Need something with more robust icing capabilities than the ATR. Ultimately are a get out of jail card, but not something you want to hang all day in upstate New York in a blizzard on.


The ATR series meets or exceeds all icing certification. Can you show otherwise?

Yes, if you operate an aircraft in extreme icing beyond any sensible limits it will fail. The same applies for the CRJ; Bombardier has extensive procedures for managing icing and, of course, placarded limits. I can think of one TO accident with the CRJ that involved wing ice, without even searching.


While the ATR has de-icing capabilities, it has issues with icing where other props like the Dash 8 and jets have. Hence is one of the many reasons why US carriers ended up dumping their ATR fleet.
 
bkmbr
Topic Author
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:08 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And sometimes the gamble is worth it, sometimes not. A320 vs. A380


The A380 may have been a failure but it alone would not cause Airbus to go bankrupt, but in the case of the A320, at the time it was launched it could have caused Airbus to go bankrupt. It would be the same type of risk that, for example, Embraer would have if it decided tomorrow to produce a competitor of the 787 or A350. Not even China with all the money it has taken to take the risk on the CR-929 project, for example.
 
bkmbr
Topic Author
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:20 pm

bigb wrote:
While the ATR has de-icing capabilities, it has issues with icing where other props like the Dash 8 and jets have. Hence is one of the many reasons why US carriers ended up dumping their ATR fleet.


The problem with the ATR in the US market is more than a de-icing capability issue, the american market has a very visible prejudice against turboprops because of the bad reputation the media outlets caused for this type of aircraft. Since the Electra II crashes in the 60s the "bad reputation" of TPs has increased a lot thanks to the media circus created in each accident or incident with TPs in the US. For many people who have little or no knowledge about airplanes TPs are seen as real flying death traps thanks to the fear created by a media more concerned with selling newspapers than reporting the facts.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:33 pm

bkmbr wrote:
bigb wrote:
While the ATR has de-icing capabilities, it has issues with icing where other props like the Dash 8 and jets have. Hence is one of the many reasons why US carriers ended up dumping their ATR fleet.


The problem with the ATR in the US market is more than a de-icing capability issue, the american market has a very visible prejudice against turboprops because of the bad reputation the media outlets caused for this type of aircraft. Since the Electra II crashes in the 60s the "bad reputation" of TPs has increased a lot thanks to the media circus created in each accident or incident with TPs in the US. For many people who have little or no knowledge about airplanes TPs are seen as real flying death traps thanks to the fear created by a media more concerned with selling newspapers than reporting the facts.


It isn't just a public image issue. The safety records os turboprops ARE worse, for some real tecnnical problems. The new generaton TP should adress the critical questions and I supose that FBY could be very helpfull.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 198
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:56 pm

Nean1 wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
bigb wrote:
While the ATR has de-icing capabilities, it has issues with icing where other props like the Dash 8 and jets have. Hence is one of the many reasons why US carriers ended up dumping their ATR fleet.


The problem with the ATR in the US market is more than a de-icing capability issue, the american market has a very visible prejudice against turboprops because of the bad reputation the media outlets caused for this type of aircraft. Since the Electra II crashes in the 60s the "bad reputation" of TPs has increased a lot thanks to the media circus created in each accident or incident with TPs in the US. For many people who have little or no knowledge about airplanes TPs are seen as real flying death traps thanks to the fear created by a media more concerned with selling newspapers than reporting the facts.


It isn't just a public image issue. The safety records os turboprops ARE worse, for some real tecnnical problems. The new generaton TP should adress the critical questions and I supose that FBY could be very helpfull.

Yep, the ATR and EMB-120 had numerous high profile crashes in the 90s that didn’t help to dispel the image, rightly or wrongly.

If people are willing to pay for jet service, airlines operate them.
 
planewasted
Posts: 542
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:17 pm

If they want to gamble they should make a 20 seat, short range, electric prop.
 
bigb
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:24 am

bkmbr wrote:
bigb wrote:
While the ATR has de-icing capabilities, it has issues with icing where other props like the Dash 8 and jets have. Hence is one of the many reasons why US carriers ended up dumping their ATR fleet.


The problem with the ATR in the US market is more than a de-icing capability issue, the american market has a very visible prejudice against turboprops because of the bad reputation the media outlets caused for this type of aircraft. Since the Electra II crashes in the 60s the "bad reputation" of TPs has increased a lot thanks to the media circus created in each accident or incident with TPs in the US. For many people who have little or no knowledge about airplanes TPs are seen as real flying death traps thanks to the fear created by a media more concerned with selling newspapers than reporting the facts.


Hence my statement of one of the many reasons.....
 
Sokes
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:23 am

What are landing speeds of turboprops compared to jets?
I believe flaps work mostly by increasing the camber. Even though: Is wing area calculated different for a wing with extended flaps and slats?
If yes, how is the wing loading of turboprops compared with turbofans that have their flaps and slats deployed?

The Electra was successful in military use as P3-Orion.
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion

I assume a maritime surveillance aircraft is o.k. in rough weather. But then it had short wings and four engines.
Would one big engine have had the same effect or isn't that possible?
Why is the Orion replaced with a B737? Isn't a turboprop for surveillance (Patrol speed Orion: 206 kn (237 mph; 382 km/h) at 1,500 ft (457 m) and 110,000 lb (49,895 kg)) much better?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
bigb
Posts: 1109
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:02 am

Sokes wrote:
What are landing speeds of turboprops compared to jets?
I believe flaps work mostly by increasing the camber. Even though: Is wing area calculated different for a wing with extended flaps and slats?
If yes, how is the wing loading of turboprops compared with turbofans that have their flaps and slats deployed?

The Electra was successful in military use as P3-Orion.
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion

I assume a maritime surveillance aircraft is o.k. in rough weather. But then it had short wings and four engines.
Would one big engine have had the same effect or isn't that possible?
Why is the Orion replaced with a B737? Isn't a turboprop for surveillance (Patrol speed Orion: 206 kn (237 mph; 382 km/h) at 1,500 ft (457 m) and 110,000 lb (49,895 kg)) much better?


Turboprops will have lower Vref speed vs jets 9 times out of 10.

The P3 was replaced by the P8 due to its age. And the P8 patrol speed will be able to easily perform the same missions that the P3 will be able to do and then some. The results will remain the same though, unable to locate submarines.
 
blandy62
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:01 am

IWMBH wrote:
Seems risky to start a project like this in the current market situation. Even if they find a partner it would be a risk for Embraer. I don’t think it’s the best idea to take such a risk in the current situation.


There is always a risk when you start a project. You never know what the market condition will be when your product reaches the market. But on the other hand, if you start a project when conditions are bad, you have the chance to reach the market when things are picking up.
 
blandy62
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:21 am

Sokes wrote:

The Electra was successful in military use as P3-Orion.


The Tu-95 is also (in its own ways) an impressive prop machine for military use
 
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keesje
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:01 am

bigb wrote:
Sokes wrote:
What are landing speeds of turboprops compared to jets?
I believe flaps work mostly by increasing the camber. Even though: Is wing area calculated different for a wing with extended flaps and slats?
If yes, how is the wing loading of turboprops compared with turbofans that have their flaps and slats deployed?

The Electra was successful in military use as P3-Orion.
Image
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion

I assume a maritime surveillance aircraft is o.k. in rough weather. But then it had short wings and four engines.
Would one big engine have had the same effect or isn't that possible?
Why is the Orion replaced with a B737? Isn't a turboprop for surveillance (Patrol speed Orion: 206 kn (237 mph; 382 km/h) at 1,500 ft (457 m) and 110,000 lb (49,895 kg)) much better?


Turboprops will have lower Vref speed vs jets 9 times out of 10.

The P3 was replaced by the P8 due to its age. And the P8 patrol speed will be able to easily perform the same missions that the P3 will be able to do and then some. The results will remain the same though, unable to locate submarines.


It's been a long time since I flew in a P3C, but I remember it could hang out for up to 17-18 hrs, speed was not really relevant. And the P3 was pretty fast if needed. Having oil going hot, or taking a seagull wasn't much of an issue for the 4 hauler. Of course everyone is uniting behind the P8, but..

A long time ago I put up a more flexible MPA design, it was a three hauler & significant smaller the a P3 or P8.

Image

Obviously it didn't make 2020 :bored:
Last edited by keesje on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Antaras
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:06 am

A electrical quad-turboprop with the size of a A319/A320/B739 would be a perfect plane.

And I guess that I need to wait for some more 10-20 years :D
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bkmbr
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Antaras wrote:
A electrical quad-turboprop with the size of a A319/A320/B739 would be a perfect plane.

And I guess that I need to wait for some more 10-20 years :D


I would say that we will have to wait for some more 40-50 years.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:32 pm

Actually the Electra II (the modified ones) had a pretty impressive and long career. They were flying well into the late 70's with Eastern and with passenger carriers in Brazil. It remained in service into the 2000's as freighters. I don't recall many accidents. It's safety record (the II) was much better than early 4 engine jets (707/DC-8/CV880).
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    bkmbr
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:41 pm

    Yes, but the 1959 Braniff and the 1960 Northwest crashes made the Electra gain the "Killer Airliner" nickname by the american media, this and the appearance of 707 they made Electra quickly go out of service in American companies and, IMHO, it is the source of all the problems that TPs still have in the USA in terms of bad reputation.
     
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    admanager
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:35 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Actually the Electra II (the modified ones) had a pretty impressive and long career. They were flying well into the late 70's with Eastern and with passenger carriers in Brazil. It remained in service into the 2000's as freighters. I don't recall many accidents. It's safety record (the II) was much better than early 4 engine jets (707/DC-8/CV880).

    And still flying in 2020 in Canada.
     
    AleksW
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:49 pm

    Sokes wrote:
    What are landing speeds of turboprops compared to jets?

    There are few YouTube cockpit videos with Azure's ATR 72's. Approach / flare speed was very close to 120 knots. Of course it depends on landing weight as well. I suspect that the Q400 might be a bit faster though.
     
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    william
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:47 pm

    keesje wrote:
    I think Embraer has witnessed that if you go head to head with Airbus or Boeing you better have a lot of time, political back-up and money.

    Image
    keesje

    So far Embraer has been smart enough to stay away there. Even to make the KC390 a succes, they realize they might need a partner.


    Nice work Keejse almost as good as your EcoLiner. But what is the difference between this and the Boeing 7J7?

    Image
     
    Sokes
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:31 am

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Actually the Electra II (the modified ones) had a pretty impressive and long career. They were flying well into the late 70's with Eastern and with passenger carriers in Brazil. It remained in service into the 2000's as freighters. I don't recall many accidents. It's safety record (the II) was much better than early 4 engine jets (707/DC-8/CV880).

    I know you speak of modified ones. Even though, that's an optimistic way to look at it:
    "Of the total of 170 Electras built, as of June 2011, 58 have been written off because of crashes and other accidents."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... _incidents

    The English Wiki doesn't tell about accidents of the Constellation series. The German Wiki has an article that says of both civilian and military Super Constellations 111 planes had to be written of (19%). In 58 accidents with loss of life 1094 people died.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von ... stellation

    If we remove weather radar from A320s/ B737s we should see more accidents with them as well. "Teething trouble" of commercial aviation, so to say.
    Nevertheless that may explain partly why Turboprops are not trusted. The 50s and 60s had no shortage of plane crashes.
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

    Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:50 am

    In fairness to the Electra II, thats over almost 50 years of operations. Most of the losses were the 3 crashes shortly after IOC (American, Braniff and NWA). Eastern never lost one IIRC. Many of the them were operated at the end by small cargo outfits (Zantop was my favorite). If you add in the record of the P-3's operating as patrol aircraft and hurricane hunters they were a very robust aircraft.
    As you mention, 707's were crashing every 3rd month or so in the early 60's - see Air France.
      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
       
      bkmbr
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      Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

      Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:57 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      In fairness to the Electra II, thats over almost 50 years of operations. Most of the losses were the 3 crashes shortly after IOC (American, Braniff and NWA). Eastern never lost one IIRC. Many of the them were operated at the end by small cargo outfits (Zantop was my favorite). If you add in the record of the P-3's operating as patrol aircraft and hurricane hunters they were a very robust aircraft.
      As you mention, 707's were crashing every 3rd month or so in the early 60's - see Air France.


      Electras were very popular in Brazil where they operated the so-called "Ponte Aérea" for Varig for over 30 years and never had any incident or accident.
       
      GalaxyFlyer
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      Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

      Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:03 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      In fairness to the Electra II, thats over almost 50 years of operations. Most of the losses were the 3 crashes shortly after IOC (American, Braniff and NWA). Eastern never lost one IIRC. Many of the them were operated at the end by small cargo outfits (Zantop was my favorite). If you add in the record of the P-3's operating as patrol aircraft and hurricane hunters they were a very robust aircraft.
      As you mention, 707's were crashing every 3rd month or so in the early 60's - see Air France.


      EA lost one to a massive bird strike at KBOS.
       
      docmtl
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      Re: Embraer's has projects for a new turboprop plane [June/2020]

      Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:17 pm

      Hi, folks

      The French government has created a program to support a new regional aircraft to be delivered by 2030, within a $15 billion budget.

      "The government has also outlined the creation of a new highly-efficient regional aircraft – using either hybrid electric or hydrogen technology – to enter service around 2030, following a demonstrator in 2028."

      https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 53.article

      Tough call for EMBRAER if it has to compete head-to-head with Airbus big bucks on the regional market...

      docmtl

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