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TVNWZ
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:34 am

“For illustration only”
 
744SPX
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:43 am

Pratt & Whitney Canada is already all over this with their NGTP engine (8 blades) which they have been working on for a few years now. It's in the 6-8,000 shp range so it would be about perfect, also with an efficiency edge over GE's current offering in the market, the GE38.

This is good news. Have been waiting for the last 10 years for the long-awaited 90 seat turboprop. Hope this succeeds. Will destroy RJ's on efficiency, and no reason it can't be cruising at 450+ mph. The bulbous and comparatively draggy A400M can do 475 all day.
 
744SPX
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:46 am

sprxUSA wrote:
So a low wing ATR? ;)



This will be a LOT faster than the ATR series. Embraer already hinted at this a few years ago with its TPNG.
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:51 am

lightsaber wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
That fuselage profile doesn't look like it's a double-bubble like the E-Jet(notice how low the doors go), yet the cabin goes too far back to leave room for an aft baggage compartment. I wonder how the real plane will turn out.

I've been trying to figure out where the bags go and... I cannot.

Lightsaber

I'm assuming that this was a lazy render of the doors/windows, and that the cargo will in fact be in the rear. Of course, this is pure conjecture.
 
CowAnon
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:52 am

m1m2 wrote:
Pratt already has an engine capable of powering this, the PW150 (Q400 engine - 5071 SHP max) although I'm thinking Embraer would want something newer and more fuel efficient.


General Electric has a possible turboprop version of the GE38-1B (T408), which can put out 7,500 shp and is used on the Sikorsky CH-53K helicopter. It's also finishing up a turboshaft project with the Army that goes beyond the current capabilities of the T408.

https://www.mdscoating.com/app/uploads/2019/04/Flight_Article_on_GE38_Coating_Highlighted_29_Oct_2013.pdf
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/us-armys-future-affordable-turbine-engine-effort-to-finish-by-end-of-2020/140636.article
 
m1m2
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:23 am

7500 SHP sounds like overkill for the size of this design. Don't get me wrong, I like power but it also comes at a price, weight of the engine/gearbox and fuel burn. However, you could de rate it and save fuel that way while boosting reliability, but you still have the weight.

I read the articles posted above and it does sound like GE would seriously be in the running here, nice to see some new technology come to turboprops.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:43 am

Oh yeah!! I am thrilled to see Embraer going this route. I love the image of it. Would love to see more pics of it. I miss flying in the Embraer 120, and wouldn't hesitate to jump on this bird any day. I love Embraer, and I am hopeful they will survive these difficult times. Any renderings with the gear down and the front of the plane?
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:17 am

lightsaber wrote:
GE and Pratt will compete fiercely for the new engine. I like the concept. I was staring at it looking for design details.

That is an underside laminar flow wing.
The gear will be tall, I bet details still in review.

That wing looks too thin to be aluminum. Is it the angle or CFRP?

Lightsaber

Don't forget Rolls. They have a pretty robust Turbo program themselves.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:18 am

GSOtoIND wrote:
That fuselage profile doesn't look like it's a double-bubble like the E-Jet(notice how low the doors go), yet the cabin goes too far back to leave room for an aft baggage compartment. I wonder how the real plane will turn out.

Looks like below the deck baggage cargo, with below the wing loading?
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:34 am

Would be interesting to see who picks these up. If the efficiency is there, maybe we'll see turboprops return to the US3s Regional feed?
 
m1m2
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:44 am

"Would be interesting to see who picks these up. If the efficiency is there, maybe we'll see turboprops return to the US3s Regional feed?"

Don't forget that a lot of Americans seem to have an aversion to turboprops.
 
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zeke
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:00 am

Looks similar to their TPNG concept from a few years ago that was previously discussed on here. Unlike the TPNG concept which had exhaust similar to the GE Advanced Turboprop in the renderings, the significant aspect I see with the render is there is no exhaust from the engine.

Does this point to an electric engine ?
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kaneporta1
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:09 am

lightsaber wrote:
I've been trying to figure out where the bags go and... I cannot.
Lightsaber


In the wing to body fairing. That's why it's so damn big! :lol:
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:24 am

kaneporta1 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I've been trying to figure out where the bags go and... I cannot.
Lightsaber


In the wing to body fairing. That's why it's so damn big! :lol:

It's probably landing gear stowage, like ATR. Those engine pods as shown wouldn't hold them ala Dash-8. Unlikely a belly pod for this sized aircraft could hold enough bags for the pax load. Bags will probably go fore or aft fuselage, and the windows as shown won't be the same in reality. As noted, this is just an initial rendering.
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32andBelow
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:43 am

lightsaber wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
That fuselage profile doesn't look like it's a double-bubble like the E-Jet(notice how low the doors go), yet the cabin goes too far back to leave room for an aft baggage compartment. I wonder how the real plane will turn out.

I've been trying to figure out where the bags go and... I cannot.

Lightsaber

Prolly in the tail behind the passengers. I’m not sure if the cargo door is depicted or if that’s a passenger door. It’ll prolly need over wing exits which it isn’t showing there either
 
avier
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:06 am

m1m2 wrote:
One disadvantage of the low wing is adequate ground clearance for the prop so most likely a 6 or 8 blade will be used.

The supposed future turboprops, mean't to be much more fuel-efficient, show renderings of much longer blades (diameter) mounted on a typical high-wing turbo-prop.
I wonder how this low-wing aircraft will be able to use those modern turbo-prop engines, unless any engine manufacturer is specifically designing one for this model only.
The longer blades are apparently key in delivering the improved engine efficiencies in such category of aircraft.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:51 am

This was posted somewhere else a while ago, originally released in 2016:

Image

Same fuselage and empennage as the E-jet. The empennage has obviously been changed.


I think the latest renderings look pretty attractive. Underfloor cargo would make managing the CG during loading a dream. The E-jets tall and roomy fuselage will allow passengers to bring full-size carry on luggage. Forward entry door so you can connect a jet-bridge.


SXDFC wrote:
I wonder if they will do a freighter/ cargo version as a 120 replacement?


I doubt it, at least initially. The market is awash with cheap ATRs that are and will be candidates for easy cargo conversion.
 
n797mx
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:45 am

diverdave wrote:
Presumably the weight is being tailored to fit within US airline scope limits.


Talking out of my bum here, but the way things have trended in the US, the Turboprop is soon to be dead for passenger operations.

Public opinion is that they are old, noisy, and uncomfortable. Now try being the first carrier to say "Hey, you know those planes you used to hate? We're bringing them back."

I know many passengers who were glad when the last PDT Dash was parked.
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:12 am

Question. I note the ‘low wing for meeting crashworthiness standards’. Will someone explain why wing placement affects crashworthiness, all else being equal? Thank you/
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Noshow
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:25 am

I support the development of new turboprops for regional aviation. They are more efficient than jets and the slower cruise is no practical factor. They use proven available technology that can be maxed out and are way better (range, turnaround) as in more usable than all those fancy battery plane fantasies.
 
pythoniels
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:19 am

Interesting design, it looks a bit like the Jetstreat 41 combined with the Brasilia. One thing for sure, this livery is stunning. Would be interesting to see how this development goes.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:27 am

Looks like a cool bird, but I'm curious what the target market would be. Could it be a potential replacement of the Q400/ATR at airlines like Austrian, CSA, and Tarom?
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:31 am

Very cool! I thought propeller airliners were becoming a thing of the past. It would be wonderful if some of these made it into American markets.
 
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Re: EMBRAER releases first pictures of its NEW TURBOBROP

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Hmm

Looks like a big Brazilia


It does. The wing-body join fairing is a lot beefier though - maybe they're putting more fuel there, or landing gear?


I'm really interested to see the nose.

Is it 3 or 4 across? Looks wider, so I guess 4.


Embraer is saying 80-100 passengers- I'm gonna guess it will be 4 across like the -170/-75/-90/-95
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:37 pm

n797mx wrote:
diverdave wrote:
Presumably the weight is being tailored to fit within US airline scope limits.


Talking out of my bum here, but the way things have trended in the US, the Turboprop is soon to be dead for passenger operations.

Public opinion is that they are old, noisy, and uncomfortable. Now try being the first carrier to say "Hey, you know those planes you used to hate? We're bringing them back."

I know many passengers who were glad when the last PDT Dash was parked.

In all fairness, those PDT Dashes were old, noisy and uncomfortable.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Those Dashes may have been old, noisy and uncomfortable but they had an impressive safety record. Esp. considering the number of cycles per day and the age of the crews. For future turbo-prop's to succeed, I think the MFG and the Airlines need to stress the "green" aspect of their efficiency. ( call it a hybrid jet liner!). If the next Administration implements a significant Carbon reduction program, there you go.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    WayexTDI
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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:30 pm

    744SPX wrote:
    Pratt & Whitney Canada is already all over this with their NGTP engine (8 blades) which they have been working on for a few years now. It's in the 6-8,000 shp range so it would be about perfect, also with an efficiency edge over GE's current offering in the market, the GE38.

    This is good news. Have been waiting for the last 10 years for the long-awaited 90 seat turboprop. Hope this succeeds. Will destroy RJ's on efficiency, and no reason it can't be cruising at 450+ mph. The bulbous and comparatively draggy A400M can do 475 all day.

    Even if it destroy the RJs on efficiency, it might not be able to compete with the E2, A220 and lower-end of Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies. That, and the (irrational) hatred that Americans have against prop planes.
    I wish it the best though
     
    744SPX
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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:29 pm

    WayexTDI wrote:
    744SPX wrote:
    Pratt & Whitney Canada is already all over this with their NGTP engine (8 blades) which they have been working on for a few years now. It's in the 6-8,000 shp range so it would be about perfect, also with an efficiency edge over GE's current offering in the market, the GE38.

    This is good news. Have been waiting for the last 10 years for the long-awaited 90 seat turboprop. Hope this succeeds. Will destroy RJ's on efficiency, and no reason it can't be cruising at 450+ mph. The bulbous and comparatively draggy A400M can do 475 all day.

    Even if it destroy the RJs on efficiency, it might not be able to compete with the E2, A220 and lower-end of Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies. That, and the (irrational) hatred that Americans have against prop planes.
    I wish it the best though



    I'm willing to bet that as long as the turboprop engine core is the same tech level as the PW1000G, the significant improvement in fuel burn over the E2/A221 will get airlines attention.
     
    incitatus
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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:38 pm

    E-jets have a solid market on segments that are longer than 500 mi. This new prop would be the killer solution for efficiency in shorter routes.
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    lightsaber
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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:00 pm

    The larger variant might work for HA, except we are talking a 2028+ EIS... This project would be obsolete without a new engine and that will be the long lead item.

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    lightsaber wrote:
    GE and Pratt will compete fiercely for the new engine. I like the concept. I was staring at it looking for design details.

    That is an underside laminar flow wing.
    The gear will be tall, I bet details still in review.

    That wing looks too thin to be aluminum. Is it the angle or CFRP?

    Lightsaber

    Don't forget Rolls. They have a pretty robust Turbo program themselves.

    and SAFRAN if we want to be complete.

    Embraer will have zero issue on getting a risk sharing partner on board.

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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:16 pm

    744SPX wrote:
    WayexTDI wrote:
    744SPX wrote:
    Pratt & Whitney Canada is already all over this with their NGTP engine (8 blades) which they have been working on for a few years now. It's in the 6-8,000 shp range so it would be about perfect, also with an efficiency edge over GE's current offering in the market, the GE38.

    This is good news. Have been waiting for the last 10 years for the long-awaited 90 seat turboprop. Hope this succeeds. Will destroy RJ's on efficiency, and no reason it can't be cruising at 450+ mph. The bulbous and comparatively draggy A400M can do 475 all day.

    Even if it destroy the RJs on efficiency, it might not be able to compete with the E2, A220 and lower-end of Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies. That, and the (irrational) hatred that Americans have against prop planes.
    I wish it the best though



    I'm willing to bet that as long as the turboprop engine core is the same tech level as the PW1000G, the significant improvement in fuel burn over the E2/A221 will get airlines attention.

    It will compete until the lower flight speed costs too much.

    This looks to be a fast turboprop. So a 300 kts to 360 kts or Mach .52 to .62. Compare this to the 447kts to 470kts for the A230 (Mach .78 to .82).

    Turboprops have issues above mach .6 due to high blade tip speeds must be kept subsonic. (Turbofans have the blade tips supersonic with the shroud helping manage shock waves and the noise).

    So assuming a 344 kt cruise (Mach .6) vs 447 kts:
    An extra 20 minutes every 500nm vs. the A220. So this turboprop might compete some in the 500nm to 1000nm range. No more.

    There will be a market, nut a range limited market.

    For example, I used to (pre-Covid19) fly LAX (or better LGB) to PDX at 724 nm. That is a minimum 750nm to actually fly the route or an extra 30 minutes on a turboprop. I personally will fly the jet for 30 minutes. For 20 minutes, I do not care and I would pick purely on the fare.

    Lightsaber

    Late edit: If economics opens up a winter LAX-GJC
    direct flight (569nm, call it 600nm in the air), I would fly this new plane 4x a year.
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    texl1649
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:39 pm

    I dunno, Lightsaber, I think fares are going to be pretty high for the next 10 years at least. Realistically, most folks wind up looking on sites like Google flights, but then booking on AA or UA directly. Not too many will pay, for instance, more than a hundred bucks more to go on jets. Certainly, most business travelers (once that resumes!) won’t have that luxury on systems like SAP’s Concur.

    For example, DFW to EGE is what, 700 miles? (Not looking it up, lazy). If AA offered both a mainline E2 (today it’s mostly a CRJ700) and also this notional prop flight, some prestige travelers might prefer the cramped jet, but I’m not sure the profit per pax even then would be greater on the Skywest CRJ vs. the notional new EMB TP. But I’m not a revenue expert, and would be curious what the a.net folks do have to say.

    Finally, would this let, possibly, EMB layer in an E2/Turboprop strategy for sales to the US3? Fly the E2 (175 or 190/195) mainline, if a union approves the new TP for x%? It could get complicated if the space of the new model is significantly different vs. ATR.
     
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    JetBuddy
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:47 pm

    It reminds me of the SAAB 2000.
     
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    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:52 pm

    WayexTDI wrote:
    Even if it destroy the RJs on efficiency, it might not be able to compete with the E2, A220 and lower-end of Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies. That, and the (irrational) hatred that Americans have against prop planes. I wish it the best though


    I agree with you about about the irrational hatred that Americans have against prop planes.

    However, even if we see the American market as the main one, we must "spread the wings" and see the world as a whole.

    So, looking at the whole and not in parts, using airfleets.net as source , we have in operation today briefly (all versions):
    1568 ATRs;
    1281 Dash 8;
    227 Saab 340
    140 EMB-120 Brasília;
    112 Fokker F50
    21 Saab 2000

    And, we still have to increase the list some BAe ATP, Dornier 328, DHC-6, EMB-110 Bandeirante ...

    Nor I will consider Russian or Chinese models (which are closing in on their universe and industry, such as, for example, the ARJ bought in quantity by Chinese airlines at the expense of other more efficient options such as the E2 and A220).

    I believe that, in the not too distant future, many of these aircraft needed to be replaced by a modern, efficient, economical design and with competitive and convenient purchasing value ...
     
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    lightsaber
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:17 pm

    texl1649 wrote:
    I dunno, Lightsaber, I think fares are going to be pretty high for the next 10 years at least. Realistically, most folks wind up looking on sites like Google flights, but then booking on AA or UA directly. Not too many will pay, for instance, more than a hundred bucks more to go on jets. Certainly, most business travelers (once that resumes!) won’t have that luxury on systems like SAP’s Concur.

    For example, DFW to EGE is what, 700 miles? (Not looking it up, lazy). If AA offered both a mainline E2 (today it’s mostly a CRJ700) and also this notional prop flight, some prestige travelers might prefer the cramped jet, but I’m not sure the profit per pax even then would be greater on the Skywest CRJ vs. the notional new EMB TP. But I’m not a revenue expert, and would be curious what the a.net folks do have to say.

    Finally, would this let, possibly, EMB layer in an E2/Turboprop strategy for sales to the US3? Fly the E2 (175 or 190/195) mainline, if a union approves the new TP for x%? It could get complicated if the space of the new model is significantly different vs. ATR.

    I agree at first they would buy just on fares. But slower turboprops have higher labor costs. When a 1.5 hour flight becomes a 2 hour flight, that is another 1/2 hour pay for the pilots and flight attendants. The main advantage of turboprops is climb efficiency. There cost advantage goes away with range.

    Your 700 mile example is probably where most would accept the slower turboprop. But at 1000nm a SpaceJet would be cheaper (this is a SpaceJet thread...).

    I see a market for this plane. I am just bracketing the market. By the time it enters service, we will know the M100 fate.

    Lightsaber
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    texl1649
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:46 pm

    Ok, but LOL, the Spacejet M100 is about as likely this decade as the Rekkof, imho, based on the news this week. Mitsubishi is focusing on the new stealth fighter project.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mhi-r ... 7F0H6?il=0
     
    docmtl
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:16 pm

    Not to mention once again that Airbus is planning a disruptive -100 pax hydrogen-fueled turboprop in 2028, plus 2-3 years to entry-to-market. With all the changes in the environmental rules and regulations, it might just as well short-livr Embrear’s new tueboprop...
     
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:26 pm

    docmtl wrote:
    Not to mention once again that Airbus is planning a disruptive -100 pax hydrogen-fueled turboprop in 2028


    A long way to go before technology proves to be safe, reliable and efficient ...
     
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    lightsaber
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:05 pm

    EMBSPBR wrote:
    docmtl wrote:
    Not to mention once again that Airbus is planning a disruptive -100 pax hydrogen-fueled turboprop in 2028


    A long way to go before technology proves to be safe, reliable and efficient ...

    Agreed.

    EIS no earlier than 2035 in my opinion for a hydrogen powered plane. In my opinion, a methane powered fuel cell powered aircraft would be more carbon neutral (after shutting down coal plants offset by the wind and solar that would have made the hydrogen).

    I might seem pessimistic on this Embraer, but only because I see a certain finite sized market that should be about 2,000 aircraft. :wideeyed:

    The MD-12 would have ruled the skies if paper aircraft could meet all promises.

    Lightsaber
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    iceberg210
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    Re: EMBRAER releases first pictures of its NEW TURBOBROP

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:08 pm

    EMBSPBR wrote:
    “It is not with the turboprop yet. We are working on a new light military aircraft, which is being built with the Brazilian Air Force.
    It will be this plane that will have a hybrid-electric propulsion during the development stage of the project ”

    I wonder though if this could be a great platform for a regional airplane itself. It wouldn't be the first time that you had 20-40 seat aircraft be used in both civilian and military settings. I always thought the only way Embraer would get back into a 120 size aircraft would be as a replacement for the 110 and 120 at the Brazil Air Force. That could be 100 planes right there, you add to it some commercial orders and some more military orders for boarder patrol etc you'd actually have a shot at launching a clean sheet program. I can't tell you how excited I am for both of these projects they could be the two new prop families we've been all waiting years for!
    Erik Berg
    “Little by little, we advance with each turn. That's how a drill works!”
     
    CATIIIevery5yrs
    Posts: 192
    Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:11 pm

    I friggin’ love turbo props. Here’s to hoping they go to mainline.
     
    texl1649
    Posts: 1629
    Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:13 pm

    docmtl wrote:
    Not to mention once again that Airbus is planning a disruptive -100 pax hydrogen-fueled turboprop in 2028, plus 2-3 years to entry-to-market. With all the changes in the environmental rules and regulations, it might just as well short-livr Embrear’s new tueboprop...


    Even if Europe does decide to pay a fortune to install that infrastructure/requirement for air travel (which would just drive more travel to trains anyway), it wouldn’t impact the other 75 percent of the world, least of all in this category. Certainly, the US/North America isn’t going to similarly install such an onerous regulatory system, nor be willing to pay for it (on an ongoing basis), and I kinda doubt Asia/South America/Africa/Middle East/India will either.

    Folks at places like Leeham can wax poetically about how great it will be (before I gave up on that site I think Ferpe had written about 4 dozen pieces about it all), but that doesn’t mean it will be even a tenth as commercially successful as the A380 was. If anything, it has the potential to take a major competitor on the global stage off the board.
     
    9Patch
    Posts: 640
    Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:18 pm

    m1m2 wrote:
    "Would be interesting to see who picks these up. If the efficiency is there, maybe we'll see turboprops return to the US3s Regional feed?"

    Don't forget that a lot of Americans seem to have an aversion to turboprops.

    Often a turboprop is your only choice when fling to a small city, so people will fly them.
    The aversion is due to turboprops being cramped, slow, and noisy. Hopefully this new Embraer will address these issues.
    There is also a perception that they are less safe, but this has more to due with the commuter airlines and low-paid, poorly trained pilots operating them, not the aircraft itself.
     
    744SPX
    Posts: 374
    Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:38 pm

    lightsaber wrote:
    texl1649 wrote:
    I dunno, Lightsaber, I think fares are going to be pretty high for the next 10 years at least. Realistically, most folks wind up looking on sites like Google flights, but then booking on AA or UA directly. Not too many will pay, for instance, more than a hundred bucks more to go on jets. Certainly, most business travelers (once that resumes!) won’t have that luxury on systems like SAP’s Concur.

    For example, DFW to EGE is what, 700 miles? (Not looking it up, lazy). If AA offered both a mainline E2 (today it’s mostly a CRJ700) and also this notional prop flight, some prestige travelers might prefer the cramped jet, but I’m not sure the profit per pax even then would be greater on the Skywest CRJ vs. the notional new EMB TP. But I’m not a revenue expert, and would be curious what the a.net folks do have to say.

    Finally, would this let, possibly, EMB layer in an E2/Turboprop strategy for sales to the US3? Fly the E2 (175 or 190/195) mainline, if a union approves the new TP for x%? It could get complicated if the space of the new model is significantly different vs. ATR.

    I agree at first they would buy just on fares. But slower turboprops have higher labor costs. When a 1.5 hour flight becomes a 2 hour flight, that is another 1/2 hour pay for the pilots and flight attendants. The main advantage of turboprops is climb efficiency. There cost advantage goes away with range.

    Your 700 mile example is probably where most would accept the slower turboprop. But at 1000nm a SpaceJet would be cheaper (this is a SpaceJet thread...).

    I see a market for this plane. I am just bracketing the market. By the time it enters service, we will know the M100 fate.

    Lightsaber


    If the new engine uses open rotor technology (or even TP400 technology) there is no reason this can't cruise at 460-500 mph and do it with double digit efficiency gains over the E2 or 220. Just look at the numbers from NASA's advanced turboprop program. The program demonstrated that open rotor would maintain double digit efficiency over a comparable tech turbofan at speeds up to mach .9.

    It's all here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19890003194
     
    Nean1
    Posts: 457
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:53 pm

    744SPX wrote:
    lightsaber wrote:
    texl1649 wrote:
    I dunno, Lightsaber, I think fares are going to be pretty high for the next 10 years at least. Realistically, most folks wind up looking on sites like Google flights, but then booking on AA or UA directly. Not too many will pay, for instance, more than a hundred bucks more to go on jets. Certainly, most business travelers (once that resumes!) won’t have that luxury on systems like SAP’s Concur.

    For example, DFW to EGE is what, 700 miles? (Not looking it up, lazy). If AA offered both a mainline E2 (today it’s mostly a CRJ700) and also this notional prop flight, some prestige travelers might prefer the cramped jet, but I’m not sure the profit per pax even then would be greater on the Skywest CRJ vs. the notional new EMB TP. But I’m not a revenue expert, and would be curious what the a.net folks do have to say.

    Finally, would this let, possibly, EMB layer in an E2/Turboprop strategy for sales to the US3? Fly the E2 (175 or 190/195) mainline, if a union approves the new TP for x%? It could get complicated if the space of the new model is significantly different vs. ATR.

    I agree at first they would buy just on fares. But slower turboprops have higher labor costs. When a 1.5 hour flight becomes a 2 hour flight, that is another 1/2 hour pay for the pilots and flight attendants. The main advantage of turboprops is climb efficiency. There cost advantage goes away with range.

    Your 700 mile example is probably where most would accept the slower turboprop. But at 1000nm a SpaceJet would be cheaper (this is a SpaceJet thread...).

    I see a market for this plane. I am just bracketing the market. By the time it enters service, we will know the M100 fate.

    Lightsaber


    If the new engine uses open rotor technology (or even TP400 technology) there is no reason this can't cruise at 460-500 mph and do it with double digit efficiency gains over the E2 or 220. Just look at the numbers from NASA's advanced turboprop program. The program demonstrated that open rotor would maintain double digit efficiency over a comparable tech turbofan at speeds up to mach .9.

    It's all here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19890003194


    This will not happen. There are already many companies specialized in presenting revolutionary products, which will not reach the market and will consume shareholder money so that some engineers and enthusiasts will be happy.

    EMBRAER specializes in conventional products, designed, certified and sold on time, on budget and with performance above specifications.
     
    F9Animal
    Posts: 4508
    Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

    Re: Embraer releases first pictures of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:09 pm

    VSMUT wrote:
    This was posted somewhere else a while ago, originally released in 2016:

    Image

    Same fuselage and empennage as the E-jet. The empennage has obviously been changed.


    I think the latest renderings look pretty attractive. Underfloor cargo would make managing the CG during loading a dream. The E-jets tall and roomy fuselage will allow passengers to bring full-size carry on luggage. Forward entry door so you can connect a jet-bridge.


    SXDFC wrote:
    I wonder if they will do a freighter/ cargo version as a 120 replacement?


    I doubt it, at least initially. The market is awash with cheap ATRs that are and will be candidates for easy cargo conversion.


    I do like the look of it for sure. Really excited to see Embraer back in the prop business again. I never understood why they didn't jump on enhancing the 120. I wonder if they could have extended the 120 fuselage a bit to get 50 seats or more?
    I Am A Different Animal!!
     
    MavyWavyATR
    Posts: 232
    Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:18 pm

    Couldn't Embraer have just brought back the EMB-120 instead while stretching it and giving it modern technology instead of investing a ton of capital into a clean sheet design?
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9010
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:23 pm

    texl1649 wrote:
    Not too many will pay, for instance, more than a hundred bucks more to go on jets. Certainly, most business travelers (once that resumes!) won’t have that luxury on systems like SAP’s Concur.

    For example, DFW to EGE is what, 700 miles? (Not looking it up, lazy). If AA offered both a mainline E2 (today it’s mostly a CRJ700) and also this notional prop flight, some prestige travelers might prefer the cramped jet, but I’m not sure the profit per pax even then would be greater on the Skywest CRJ vs. the notional new EMB TP. But I’m not a revenue expert, and would be curious what the a.net folks do have to say.


    I don't think this will pencil out to $100/seat cheaper than an E75/CR9. Of course that depends on cost of fuel. DFW-EGE is 721 sm. Assume 60 seat-miles per gallon, so 913 gallons per flight and 12 gallons per seat. (Pilots/dispatch want to check my math?) Even more pilot and FA labor due to slower flight speeds. Will Americans pay $8 each way to go an a jet vs. a prop for a 2:20 flight? ALL FRICKIN' DAY.
     
    LDRA
    Posts: 330
    Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:00 pm

    How does this short range regional aircraft compete with (semi) self driving automotive in 2027?!
     
    User avatar
    lightsaber
    Moderator
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    Re: Embraer releases first rendering of its new turboprop

    Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:26 pm

    Nean1 wrote:
    744SPX wrote:
    lightsaber wrote:
    I agree at first they would buy just on fares. But slower turboprops have higher labor costs. When a 1.5 hour flight becomes a 2 hour flight, that is another 1/2 hour pay for the pilots and flight attendants. The main advantage of turboprops is climb efficiency. There cost advantage goes away with range.

    Your 700 mile example is probably where most would accept the slower turboprop. But at 1000nm a SpaceJet would be cheaper (this is a SpaceJet thread...).

    I see a market for this plane. I am just bracketing the market. By the time it enters service, we will know the M100 fate.

    Lightsaber


    If the new engine uses open rotor technology (or even TP400 technology) there is no reason this can't cruise at 460-500 mph and do it with double digit efficiency gains over the E2 or 220. Just look at the numbers from NASA's advanced turboprop program. The program demonstrated that open rotor would maintain double digit efficiency over a comparable tech turbofan at speeds up to mach .9.

    It's all here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19890003194


    This will not happen. There are already many companies specialized in presenting revolutionary products, which will not reach the market and will consume shareholder money so that some engineers and enthusiasts will be happy.

    EMBRAER specializes in conventional products, designed, certified and sold on time, on budget and with performance above specifications.

    I have to agree. Embraer will want the latest generation turboprop, but Pratt, GE, RE, or SAFRAN will have to provide a very efficient engine that has low risk.

    We should debate:
    1. Which engine vendor?
    2. What wing material (CFRF was made mainstream by the A220 and other projects. Embraer could hire spirit or Mitsubishi, the market is competitive now).
    3. What range? More is worse short range economics, but too little limits some customers. It needs to outfly the all electric planes. When they are (eventually) economical.
    4. How much baggage capacity? Most importantly, can it carry surfboards for Hawaiian? ;)
    5. What type of subsystems? I assume E2 level, but Embraer learns, so it could be more electrical which helps turboprop maintenance economics.

    I see a market, just not for years for this Embraer plane.

    Open rotor has issues. They aren't publicised because the engineers know the solutions reduce capability. Will it happen? When sn advocate invests the funds. It took Pratt 20+ years to get the GTF into service after the tech was ready. I worked on GTF technology that didn't enter service for 17 years after proving concepts and, more importantly, finding the failure modes and how to analyze to ensure that those failure modes couldn't be realized.

    The open rotor is missing failure modes testing.

    Lightsaber
    3 months without TV. The best decision of my life.

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