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afcjets
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The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:27 pm

Construction at CLT is still underway. The additional departure and arrival lanes are being added and the main terminal is getting high ceilings, pedestrian bridges, and it is being widened. The first A North concourse opened a couple of years ago but if AA shrinks or goes out of business, will the additional A North piers continue to be built? They are supposed to finish them in the next few years.
 
bigb
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:33 pm

AA isn’t shrinking CLT if they shrink as its one of AA highest Margin hubs in the system. Two, I don’t think AA is going anywhere.
 
bigb
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:36 pm

As for the future, well the The terminal head house is currently being widened to where the old vehicle drop off area was. They are building Concourse E E-35s and E38s extensions (this will be a welcomed change like the E14-E16 extensions with jetbridges.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:20 pm

CLT and DFW will remain the focal point of AA's growth, regardless of COVID19 and its impact on the industry and AA isn't going anywhere and neither are DL or UA. If pushed to the brink, they can all file Chapter 11, as they've all done before amid a crisis.
 
jplatts
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:13 pm

WN is going to be starting CLT-DEN nonstop service on December 17th.
 
USAirALB
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:40 pm

The project you are referring to (A North Phase II) doesn't have anything to do with AA.

The A North Phase II project is comprised of a new 10 gate Concourse north of the current A Gates, as well as a new Main Terminal headhouse building (most likely will be called Terminal 1) which will house ticketing and baggage claim facilities for all non-AA carriers at CLT. The new 10 gate concourse will allow DL to move their flights to the new A North gates, and was rumored to house a Delta Sky Club. DL is currently still occupying their existing gates in Concourse A. After DL moved to the new gates, AA would then take over all A1-A13 gates.

The project was ready to go IIRC and the airport recently approved plans to combine the Main Terminal headhouse project into the A North Phase 2 project. However due to COVID-19, the project has been postponed.

All existing projects continue, however, and construction is currently proceeding as planned for the Terminal Lobby expansion project.
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MIflyer12
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:04 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN is going to be starting CLT-DEN nonstop service on December 17th.


That's a fine fact but I don't think it's particularly relevant to the OP's question and the ~700 flights a day operated by AA (and regionals) prior to COVID-19. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1420609

Hub airports that lose their (single) hub carrier typically implode spectacularly in terms of destinations served and frequencies. (See PIT, MEM, CVG, CLE.) But, so long as AA is operating (outside or inside Ch 11) I don't think CLT has too much to worry about. AA has no good alternative to many of the routings offered thru CLT.
 
aaflyer222
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:22 pm

bigb wrote:
As for the future, well the The terminal head house is currently being widened to where the old vehicle drop off area was. They are building Concourse E E-35s and E38s extensions (this will be a welcomed change like the E14-E16 extensions with jetbridges.


when will concourse e extension be finished?
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jplatts
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:11 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Hub airports that lose their (single) hub carrier typically implode spectacularly in terms of destinations served and frequencies. (See PIT, MEM, CVG, CLE.) But, so long as AA is operating (outside or inside Ch 11) I don't think CLT has too much to worry about. AA has no good alternative to many of the routings offered thru CLT.


AA had completely dehubbed STL by 2010 with DFW, ORD, LAX, MIA, LGA, JFK, and DCA being the only remaining destinations that AA served nonstop from STL in Fall 2010. AA STL-DCA nonstop service went from a hub-to-spoke nonstop route with a hub on the STL end, to a point-to-point nonstop route, and then to a hub-to-spoke nonstop route with a hub on the DCA end. STL also regained AA nonstop service to CLT, PHL, and PHX with the AA-US merger.

WN has also added or re-added nonstop service to ATL, AUS, BOS, CHS, DSM, BDL, LAX, MKE, MSP, LGA, BNA, MSY, OAK, ECP, PNS, PIT, PDX, RDU, SMF, SLC, SAT, SFO, SEA, DCA, and ICT out of STL subsequent to the loss of the AA STL hub.
 
enplaned
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:12 pm

afcjets wrote:
Construction at CLT is still underway. The additional departure and arrival lanes are being added and the main terminal is getting high ceilings, pedestrian bridges, and it is being widened. The first A North concourse opened a couple of years ago but if AA shrinks or goes out of business, will the additional A North piers continue to be built? They are supposed to finish them in the next few years.


So long as there are even two legacy type carriers, CLT will be a hub. In the SE (putting Florida aside) there are only ATL and CLT as hubs. Charlotte is undersized relative to most metros that support a hub, but it's still the largest metro in the SE other than Atlanta, so it gets the second hub.

I could see AA go into another CH 11, liquidation is far less likely. In the incredibly unlikely event that AA were somehow disassembled in a liquidation or other scenario, the CLT hub would survive in the hands of (presumably) UA.

It's a unique asset.
 
jplatts
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:28 pm

enplaned wrote:
So long as there are even two legacy type carriers, CLT will be a hub. In the SE (putting Florida aside) there are only ATL and CLT as hubs. Charlotte is undersized relative to most metros that support a hub, but it's still the largest metro in the SE other than Atlanta, so it gets the second hub.

I could see AA go into another CH 11, liquidation is far less likely. In the incredibly unlikely event that AA were somehow disassembled in a liquidation or other scenario, the CLT hub would survive in the hands of (presumably) UA.

It's a unique asset.


I agree with your point, even though there are some nonstop routes that could be added by DL, UA, WN, AS, and NK out of CLT in the event of an AA liquidation or AA significantly downsizing its CLT hub, including CLT-BOS/LAX/SEA on DL, CLT-SFO on UA, CLT-ATL/MCO/PHX/STL/TPA on WN, CLT-PDX/SAN/SEA on AS, and CLT-ORD/DFW/DTW/LAS/MSY/TPA on NK.
 
afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:30 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
CLT and DFW will remain the focal point of AA's growth, regardless of COVID19 and its impact on the industry and AA isn't going anywhere and neither are DL or UA. If pushed to the brink, they can all file Chapter 11, as they've all done before amid a crisis.


And unlike with Pan Am and Eastern, their CEOs didn't say they will never lose money again, so you're probably right.
 
afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:36 pm

USAirALB wrote:
The project you are referring to (A North Phase II) doesn't have anything to do with AA.


If American emerges as a smaller airline they might need fewer gates or concourses at CLT.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:52 pm

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
The project you are referring to (A North Phase II) doesn't have anything to do with AA.


If American emerges as a smaller airline they might need fewer gates or concourses at CLT.


They will be smaller but the duration of that is yet to be determined. Most at risk will be things added more recently. Our economy has been growing since ~2010. If it took all the way until 2018/2019/2020 for something to be viable then in a weaker economy, it won't make sense again. One potential advantage, as has been discussed on the OAG threads, is that AA has maintained a lot more of its schedule than some peers so it's possible they can grab some share as others work to get just to the level AA is at today. MAYBE.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:19 pm

AA will definitely keep CLT as one of their key airports - it is very cheap for them to run, and they have a significant advantage geographically for north-south connections. However, I do not think that the hub (like most others) will fully recover from the downturn for a few years, so there’s definitely room for F9 or NK to open a sizable operation, by their standards. Currently, there’s not a lot of ULCC in CLT compared to RDU or ATL
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:32 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
Is just me or this topic appears every six months.


I thought so too but couldn't find it. If it has been six months or more though you're not supposed to respond without asking permission first for some reason. The reason this topic keeps coming up might be because people like you are curious enough to open it.
 
smflyer
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN is going to be starting CLT-DEN nonstop service on December 17th.

Hub airports that lose their (single) hub carrier typically implode spectacularly in terms of destinations served and frequencies. (See PIT, MEM, CVG, CLE.) But, so long as AA is operating (outside or inside Ch 11) I don't think CLT has too much to worry about. AA has no good alternative to many of the routings offered thru CLT.


Those hub airports imploded because local O&D traffic had abysmal yield. Most of those cities lie in the rust belt which has had decade over decade decline in jobs, population, and economic activity. CLT is backed by a city has strong healthcare, education, and banking sectors that drive business travel and high amount of residents with disposable income when compared to the other former hub airports. Even if AA closed CLT, either another airline would swoop in or other carriers would start a race to see who can build up CLT the fastest. In doing so you can expect it to become a hub once again, but probably with a lot more competition that there is currently.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:51 am

CLT will be fine, AA isn’t going anywhere. In fact they will be shy 500 flights again in July. My friend just went through last week and she said it was busier than she thought it would be.
 
n2dru
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:46 am

Anyone knows how CLT stack up against ATL in O&D traffic since both are prominent in the SE US hub arena.
 
dstblj52
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:26 am

n2dru wrote:
Anyone knows how CLT stack up against ATL in O&D traffic since both are prominent in the SE US hub arena.

atlanta is roughly twice as large a city as charlotte with similar demographics so I would predict charlotte has roughly half the O/D of Atlanta, but as Atlanta precovid was a much bigger airport with more flights at a higher gauge the percentage of OD might be higher at charlotte but im not at all sure about that
 
Kbud
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:10 am

USAirALB wrote:
The project you are referring to (A North Phase II) doesn't have anything to do with AA.

The A North Phase II project is comprised of a new 10 gate Concourse north of the current A Gates, as well as a new Main Terminal headhouse building (most likely will be called Terminal 1) which will house ticketing and baggage claim facilities for all non-AA carriers at CLT. The new 10 gate concourse will allow DL to move their flights to the new A North gates, and was rumored to house a Delta Sky Club. DL is currently still occupying their existing gates in Concourse A. After DL moved to the new gates, AA would then take over all A1-A13 gates.

The project was ready to go IIRC and the airport recently approved plans to combine the Main Terminal headhouse project into the A North Phase 2 project. However due to COVID-19, the project has been postponed.

All existing projects continue, however, and construction is currently proceeding as planned for the Terminal Lobby expansion project.

The New A North gates could have something to do with AA in the event they shrink at CLT. Commercial aviation will also take some time to rebound from Covid well after there is an immunization.

After looking at all the future plans in Charlotte I’ve never seen anything that shows there will be more than one terminal. The A and E extensions and any mods to B, C, D, and even the midfield idea all show still coming out of the main (presently being expanded) terminal. I hope that is wrong, but I’ve only seen the roadway coming up to one terminal building for baggage and ticketing being housed in this larger building.

Living in CLT, I’m happy to see the improvements coming. I think the one one terminal building is a major flaw for those living in CLT. Lastly the other challenge I see is connectivity. Imagine arriving at one of the ends of the E concourses and going all the way to the end of B? Or one of the new A concourses and just going to get your bag? They need some type of airport train. I somehow hope there will be more than one terminal, I just don’t see it from any of the diagrams and animations though.
 
afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:43 pm

Kbud wrote:
After looking at all the future plans in Charlotte I’ve never seen anything that shows there will be more than one terminal. The A and E extensions and any mods to B, C, D, and even the midfield idea all show still coming out of the main (presently being expanded) terminal. I hope that is wrong, but I’ve only seen the roadway coming up to one terminal building for baggage and ticketing being housed in this larger building.

A new terminal was in the original master plan but they changed the concourse part so perhaps the design and location of it will change too.

Image
 
USAirALB
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:45 pm

Kbud wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
The project you are referring to (A North Phase II) doesn't have anything to do with AA.
After looking at all the future plans in Charlotte I’ve never seen anything that shows there will be more than one terminal. The A and E extensions and any mods to B, C, D, and even the midfield idea all show still coming out of the main (presently being expanded) terminal. I hope that is wrong, but I’ve only seen the roadway coming up to one terminal building for baggage and ticketing being housed in this larger building.

It isn't publicly available on the CLT website but if you do some digging on the City of Charlotte website you can see the plans. It will be a 2 story facility with ticketing islands on the second level and 4-5 carousels (can't recall the specific number) on the lower level.

The design for the Phase II expansion came back with more than a 50% budget increase than Phase I, which makes me think they were going ahead with said Terminal 2 project.
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afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:14 pm

USAirALB wrote:
It isn't publicly available on the CLT website but if you do some digging on the City of Charlotte website you can see the plans. It will be a 2 story facility with ticketing islands on the second level and 4-5 carousels (can't recall the specific number) on the lower level.

The design for the Phase II expansion came back with more than a 50% budget increase than Phase I, which makes me think they were going ahead with said Terminal 2 project.


I wasn't able to find it, please post the link.
 
USAirALB
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:55 pm

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
It isn't publicly available on the CLT website but if you do some digging on the City of Charlotte website you can see the plans. It will be a 2 story facility with ticketing islands on the second level and 4-5 carousels (can't recall the specific number) on the lower level.

The design for the Phase II expansion came back with more than a 50% budget increase than Phase I, which makes me think they were going ahead with said Terminal 2 project.


I wasn't able to find it, please post the link.

http://www.charlotteairport.com/AboutCL ... 0FINAL.pdf

"The OAL terminal is located to the north of existing Concourse A. This area, referred to as A North, is part of a proposed new terminal and concourse development that extends from existing Concourse A into the area formerly occupied by the airport rental car facility. Depending on the airline mission allocations and the overall configuration of the alternative, A North is developed with or without an OAL terminal processor. The OAL terminal is positioned at the northern portion of the A North concourse and includes a dual-level arrivals and departures curbside roadway. The alternatives without the OAL terminal would either utilize an APM system or a system of dual moving walkways to move passengers to and from the existing main terminal to the A North aircraft gates."

The preferred Terminal Expansion Alternative (C-4B) ultimately includes:
1. New Hammerhead satellite with APM to replace Concourse E (scheduled for completion in mid-2030s)
2. New A North gates (partially complete, phase II postponed due to COVID).
3. New East Terminal concession area (complete)
4. New OAL Terminal as part of the A North expansion (planning complete, but project postponed due to COVID).
5. New International Swing gates on Concourse C
6. Renovation of D and FIS, as well as construction of 2 new baggage claim belts for a total of 6 in the FIS area (planning completed, but project postponed because of COVID).
6. Creation of Piers at the end of Concourse B and C

"Two alternatives were developed for the OAL Terminal, located within Concourse A North. The first alternative is a single level terminal facility and drop-off curb with an elevated concourse level. The second alternative is dual level facility, complete with dedicated ticketing and baggage claim levels and drop-off curbs. The single level OAL Terminal was initially developed to reduce construction costs. However, it was later determined that the dual level facility delivered a better overall value for the additional cost. The single level facility was estimated at $842 Million while the dual level facility was estimated at $937 Million in total construction costs."
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afcjets
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:23 pm

I didn't realize there is an option for an east/west runway south of the parallel runways. I wonder if 5/23 will stay open now that all this future construction might not be necessary.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:29 pm

USAirALB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
It isn't publicly available on the CLT website but if you do some digging on the City of Charlotte website you can see the plans. It will be a 2 story facility with ticketing islands on the second level and 4-5 carousels (can't recall the specific number) on the lower level.

The design for the Phase II expansion came back with more than a 50% budget increase than Phase I, which makes me think they were going ahead with said Terminal 2 project.


I wasn't able to find it, please post the link.

http://www.charlotteairport.com/AboutCL ... 0FINAL.pdf



For those that don't want to read a large document
The alternative & preferred airfield layout is on pg 283
The terminal layout & alternatives on pg 287
 
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janders
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:12 pm

n2dru wrote:
Anyone knows how CLT stack up against ATL in O&D traffic since both are prominent in the SE US hub arena.


I don't have 2019 numbers, but in 2018 CLT was 12,535,630 local O&D vs 34,735,406 at ATL.

Source of the data was a Boyd Group presentation
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
ahj2000
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:02 pm

janders wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Anyone knows how CLT stack up against ATL in O&D traffic since both are prominent in the SE US hub arena.


I don't have 2019 numbers, but in 2018 CLT was 12,535,630 local O&D vs 34,735,406 at ATL.

Source of the data was a Boyd Group presentation

These numbers, 10-20 years from now, will get closer. Not equal, but closer. CLT is growing like a weed, still, while Atlanta is growing like a tree(? whatever grows normally...). The whole Truist thing will also probably bring more traffic to CLT.
-Andrés Juánez
 
MIflyer12
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:11 am

ahj2000 wrote:
janders wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Anyone knows how CLT stack up against ATL in O&D traffic since both are prominent in the SE US hub arena.


I don't have 2019 numbers, but in 2018 CLT was 12,535,630 local O&D vs 34,735,406 at ATL.

Source of the data was a Boyd Group presentation

These numbers, 10-20 years from now, will get closer. Not equal, but closer. CLT is growing like a weed, still, while Atlanta is growing like a tree(? whatever grows normally...). The whole Truist thing will also probably bring more traffic to CLT.


The Charlotte CSA was 45% the population count of the Atlanta CSA in 1990, and estimated at 41% in 2019. It's certainly not catching up fast, growing at a rate of 16% 2010-2019 vs. Atlanta's 13%. (Yes, that means Atlanta blew Charlotte into the weeds in the 90s and 00s.)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:13 am

enplaned wrote:
Charlotte is undersized relative to most metros that support a hub, but it's still the largest metro in the SE other than Atlanta

Since when?

Charlotte/Concord/Gastonia isn't even in the top-5 metros for the Southeast.... nor is it second if discounting the Florida metros (which BTW makes no sense).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast ... ical_Areas
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flyinggoat
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Since when?

Charlotte/Concord/Gastonia isn't even in the top-5 metros for the Southeast.... nor is it second if discounting the Florida metros (which BTW makes no sense).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast ... ical_Areas


There isn't any consensus in what the term "Southeast" refers to. From the link you provided:

"The U.S. Geological Survey considers the Southeast region to be Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee, plus Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. There is no official Census Bureau definition of the southeastern United States; instead, they divide a larger region including Texas and Oklahoma designated as the "South" into three subregions none of which are conventionally considered to define the southeast. The nonprofit American Association of Geographers defines the southeastern United States as Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Maryland, Virginia, and West Virginia.[2] The OSBO (American small business support organization) uses the same states, but includes Arkansas and Louisiana. The state of Delaware plus the District of Columbia are also sometimes added in some definitions of the term."

I lived in North Carolina for 17 years, three of which were in Charlotte. Nobody I know would consider Baltimore or Washington DC metros as part of the "Southeast". It's all semantics, but if we were to use the U.S. Geological Survey's interpretation of what the Southeast is (which, in my experience, aligns with just about everybody's definition of "Southeast"), then the Charlotte metropolitan area would fall in at number 4, or second if you left out the Florida metros.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:51 am

flyinggoat wrote:
Nobody I know would consider Baltimore or Washington DC metros as part of the "Southeast".

Which isn't a particularly astute conclusion on their part, considering that that part of the country was once the actual capital of "the South," and it ain't the southcentral, nor southwest.....


flyinggoat wrote:
if you left out the Florida metros.

Which again, makes zilch sense, seeing as multiple Florida gateways handle plenty of domestic transfer all day every day.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
airlineworker
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:19 pm

Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.
 
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Polot
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:23 pm

airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.

Really the only way to fix that is to destroy the entire terminal complex and rebuild with a better design.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:05 pm

airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


One of the biggest changes proposed to alleviate this is closing the crosswind runway 5/23 and converting it to a taxiway. This would primarily benefit aircraft to and from concourses E and D.
 
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SLCUT2777
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:35 pm

Polot wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.

Really the only way to fix that is to destroy the entire terminal complex and rebuild with a better design.



As SLC is doing?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
JohanTally
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:56 pm

airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


Taxi time is way down right now with the reduced schedule. The biggest problem is flights on D and E-Concourse landing and taking off on 18C/36C and 18R/36L instead of 18L/36R which just can't handle the volume of AA regional jets during normal operations.
 
alasizon
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:05 pm

JohanTally wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


Taxi time is way down right now with the reduced schedule. The biggest problem is flights on D and E-Concourse landing and taking off on 18C/36C and 18R/36L instead of 18L/36R which just can't handle the volume of AA regional jets during normal operations.


The north wrap-around taxiway should help with that as it allows the aircraft to not have to wait for an opportunity to cross.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Roots1
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:38 am

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm

JohanTally wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


Taxi time is way down right now with the reduced schedule. The biggest problem is flights on D and E-Concourse landing and taking off on 18C/36C and 18R/36L instead of 18L/36R which just can't handle the volume of AA regional jets during normal operations.


Departures are given runway assignments based on direction of flight, not where they park, so this would happen anyway. Yes the wrap around taxiway will help.
 
bigb
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:17 pm

JohanTally wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


Taxi time is way down right now with the reduced schedule. The biggest problem is flights on D and E-Concourse landing and taking off on 18C/36C and 18R/36L instead of 18L/36R which just can't handle the volume of AA regional jets during normal operations.


The biggest roadblock to this issue is the way the airspace over CLT is handled between CLT approach and ALT center. Where westbound departures and arrivals use the side of the field and eastbound departures and arrivals use the east side of the field when the volume is high.

The ramp and terminal complex needs a complete redesign in my opinion to decrease taxi times and accommodate the ATC runways needs to handle high volume traffic above.
 
bigb
Posts: 1108
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:23 pm

alasizon wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
Is anything being done to shorten the time landing aircraft take to reach the gates? CLT has the longest ground time reaching gates I have ever experienced.


Taxi time is way down right now with the reduced schedule. The biggest problem is flights on D and E-Concourse landing and taking off on 18C/36C and 18R/36L instead of 18L/36R which just can't handle the volume of AA regional jets during normal operations.


The north wrap-around taxiway should help with that as it allows the aircraft to not have to wait for an opportunity to cross.


While this help, the bottleneck is the ramp coming to a stop during a major push or one of the widebodies pushing off the D gates. A lot of times what Ramp controllers will do what like I to call “dumping the airport” where they will push and get all of the departures taxing outboard before bringing inbounds to the gate. This process about 40-60 mins. This is very common for the E gates since there is only one way in and one way out.
 
Roots1
Posts: 55
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:29 pm

An east-west taxiway on the north side of the field -- where the parking lots and railroad tracks are -- would also help.
 
ahj2000
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:30 am

LAX772LR wrote:
flyinggoat wrote:
Nobody I know would consider Baltimore or Washington DC metros as part of the "Southeast".

Which isn't a particularly astute conclusion on their part, considering that that part of the country was once the actual capital of "the South," and it ain't the southcentral, nor southwest.....


flyinggoat wrote:
if you left out the Florida metros.

Which again, makes zilch sense, seeing as multiple Florida gateways handle plenty of domestic transfer all day every day.


The current North-South divide, culturally, is probably somewhere about 50-75 miles out of DC. Think the end of the Northern Virginia area.
However, we're talking georgraphy, not culture/the Confederacy here. The WAS airports are completely useless for intra-south travel. I would'nt want to fly BHM-ILM via IAD, but via CLT or ATL. Look at the position of IAH as a reference. Similar in utility. (I talked to a United loyalist who I lived near back when I was in CLT with family in Nola. It's apparently awful to go around your elbow to get to your thumb. He switched over to US pretty quickly.)
Similarly, MIA/FLL, TPA, and MCO/SFB are too far south to be Southeastern hubs. 95% of intra-southeast travel, say MSY-RIC, would be awful via MIA. There is still a need for something in Florida, the third most populous state in our Union, but it can't be a big domestic hub. It's why most of American's ops in MIA are for connections further south with some across the pond, not between small centers in the Southeast (exculding places like JAX, EYW, and GNV.
-Andrés Juánez
 
JohanTally
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:20 am

Roots1 wrote:
An east-west taxiway on the north side of the field -- where the parking lots and railroad tracks are -- would also help.


That would solve all the problems but with all the new construction, railroad tracks, and elevation change there just isn't any suitable real estate available. Closing the crosswind runway and creating taxiways will help but the end of D concourse will always create a bottleneck. They honestly need to get rid of D9-D12 once B and C get customs in their expansion.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:53 am

JohanTally wrote:
Roots1 wrote:
An east-west taxiway on the north side of the field -- where the parking lots and railroad tracks are -- would also help.


That would solve all the problems but with all the new construction, railroad tracks, and elevation change there just isn't any suitable real estate available. Closing the crosswind runway and creating taxiways will help but the end of D concourse will always create a bottleneck. They honestly need to get rid of D9-D12 once B and C get customs in their expansion.

Per the master plan, D9-13 will indeed close but there will be no new FIS area.

Instead, the current FIS area will be expanded to have additional inspection desks and additional baggage carousel, as well as an enlarged recheck/flight connections area.

A portion of the C Gates will be converted into "Swing" gates and a new international arrivals corridor will be built on top of the concourse that will lead incoming international arriving passengers towards and down into the current FIS area.

Honestly, the whole project seems like a cluster, especially the construction of the corridor on top of the present concourse. I wonder if the 1980s era building can withstand a new level on top of it.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
alasizon
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:49 am

USAirALB wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Roots1 wrote:
An east-west taxiway on the north side of the field -- where the parking lots and railroad tracks are -- would also help.


That would solve all the problems but with all the new construction, railroad tracks, and elevation change there just isn't any suitable real estate available. Closing the crosswind runway and creating taxiways will help but the end of D concourse will always create a bottleneck. They honestly need to get rid of D9-D12 once B and C get customs in their expansion.

Per the master plan, D9-13 will indeed close but there will be no new FIS area.

Instead, the current FIS area will be expanded to have additional inspection desks and additional baggage carousel, as well as an enlarged recheck/flight connections area.

A portion of the C Gates will be converted into "Swing" gates and a new international arrivals corridor will be built on top of the concourse that will lead incoming international arriving passengers towards and down into the current FIS area.

Honestly, the whole project seems like a cluster, especially the construction of the corridor on top of the present concourse. I wonder if the 1980s era building can withstand a new level on top of it.


There are ways to build the corridor on top such that the load can be supported by new side pillars as opposed to the existing frame. That being said, the initial building should be able to support a decent amount of the weight as is because it'll be spread across a pretty big area, it isn't like the weight of the entire corridor is on a single pillar.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13232
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Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:53 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Similarly, MIA/FLL, TPA, and MCO/SFB are too far south to be Southeastern hubs. 95% of intra-southeast travel, say MSY-RIC, would be awful via MIA.

And yet, it happened all day every day, at 4 different Florida gateways, by 4 (and for a long while, 5) different airlines.

With that in mind, I'm not really sure what your point here actually is.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Similarly, MIA/FLL, TPA, and MCO/SFB are too far south to be Southeastern hubs. 95% of intra-southeast travel, say MSY-RIC, would be awful via MIA.

And yet, it happened all day every day, at 4 different Florida gateways, by 4 (and for a long while, 5) different airlines.

With that in mind, I'm not really sure what your point here actually is.

Sure, and I know people that have flown SEA-SAN connecting via DEN on UA.

I am not sure what you are trying to beat around the bush. The sole Floridian hub for the US3 that exists today (MIA) is not designed for intra-Southeast travel. That doesn't mean that AA won't sell me an intra-southeast connection via MIA (hell I saw DCA-MIA-SEA the other day) but that isn't the purpose of the hub.

The only true "Southern" hubs are ATL and CLT.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13232
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The future of CLT Airport

Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:32 am

USAirALB wrote:
The only true "Southern" hubs are ATL and CLT.

False.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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