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Italianflyer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:24 pm

Here is an archived thread about the UA Caravelles that may answer your questions.

viewtopic.php?t=279097

During my UA days I asked about the exotic experiment. I was told that the supply chain was so stretched (being the only USA based operator) that a plane that should have gone tech for 48 hours was out of service for a week due to parts procurement.

I think UA picked them up as a competitive response to AAs 1-11s and EA & TWs DC9s that made small/medium sized markets viable. Once they reached critical mass with the 737-100s the Caravelles became an expensive redundancy.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:34 pm

Good vid of UA Caravelle training flights at PUB

https://youtu.be/N2iF6o_U6vg
 
BravoOne
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:43 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
UAL operated the Caravelle with 3 pilots. were there any European operators that used 3 crew as well?

United operated the 737 with 3 pilots as well Frontier was the first to do it with 2 pilots for which UA ALPA Never forgave them and got revenge for in later years.



Yes I know that as I flew the 737 with 3 at WAL. Not sure about your revenge remarks? As I recall Aloha was the airline with the most resistance to this manning issue, followed later by Wein.
 
LucaDiMontanari
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:25 pm

Great thread, perfect to sweeten a Sunday evening :cool:

Stumbled over this a few months ago: if you plan a stay in France, there is the possibility to not just visit but actually sleep in a Caravelle. In a town called Moyenpal some 90km west of Mulhouse, there is a hotel/farm stay that has such a bird converted into hotel rooms. I do not have any relations to that, so no commercial interests here, but this gem has to be shared with aviation fans in my opinion. I have no idea, why this is so unknown among AvGeeks and I definitively need to spend a night there some day, especially as it is just a two hour drive from my home :eek:

Here is some information, unfortunately in french only:

http://nuitsinsolites.com/#hebergements
 
CRJ900
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:28 pm

Great thread. In the 1980s I remember Sterling Airways Caravelle 10Bs flying over my house as I lived close to Gardermoen airport (GEN) which is today's OSL. Sterling had its Norwegian base there and was a well-known charter carrier - many of us flew them when going on holidays. I really wanted to be a FA with them but sadly they went bust before I was old enough to apply for a job there. I never flew their Caravelle but did fly on their B727-200Adv - loved it! Both my older sisters flew on the Caravelle when going on holidays and they didnt like it, the plane felt very old and worn. Several decades later I became an FA with Norwegian and there I had many colleagues who were FAs and pilots with Sterling Airways - and boy, did I ask thousands of questions and they answered with great pleasure, because they all loved working for Sterling Airways. So my information about Caravelle is mostly from Sterling Airways FAs who worked onboard this lovely aircraft.

Sterling Airways started operating the Caravelle 10B in 1965 in a one-class layout with 105-109 seats at 29/30 inch pitch. Sterling operated the -10B until 1992, so 27 years of reliable service. The 10B had enough range to fly Oslo/Stockholm - southern Spain and Greek islands with 109 pax nonstop. 105/109 seats was enough to make money and was right-sized for a lot of holiday routes in the 1970s-1980s year-round. FAs liked working onboard the -10B as it had big aisle-facing galleys forward and aft with enough room for two FAs to work efficiently. The forward galley had all the passenger meals - there was one oven to warm bread rolls and crew food, passengers received a cold meal. The aft galley was located between the lavatories and the tail exit and was filled to the brim with duty free products and drinks carts. The huge onboard duty free sales was the main reason the airline existed for so long, many flights had an extra FA onboard to help pack all the duty free orders - some flights were only 90 minutes long (CPH-STN) but had normal service: drinks, meal and duty free shopping. The FAs were often sweaty and still wearing their serving vests/aprons during landing after working very hard to deliver the full inflight service in 90 minutes.

Sterling also leased some series III with 93-99 seats during busy seasons.

In 1971 Sterling was launch customer of the Caravelle 12. They ordered 12 aircraft but took only 7. The remaining 5 went to Air Inter. The first four -12 had 140 seats at 28 inch pitch and was able to fly to most Mediterranean destinations from CPH, their main base. The last three had 131 seats with 29/30 inch pitch. In the mid-1970s cracks were found in the wings or wing-to-fuselage section and the -12 were grounded for some time. A fix was implemented but took 6 months per aircraft, which led to lost orders from other airlines. In the early 1980s the 182-seat B727-200Adv was more useful and flexible for Sterling as it could fly non-stop Scandinavia - Canary islands/Morocco/Egypt and pax numbers increased every year. The -12 were phased out of Sterling's fleet in 1983 and found a new home with French carriers Air Provence and Air Inter and flew into the early 1990s.

Sterling used their -10B and -12 on charter flights to Sri Lanka and Goa with 2-3 fuel stops. They also flew to Florida and Caribbean with fuel stops at KEF and BGR. I'm guessing Sterling used the 131-seat -12 on these flights as they offered slightly better legroom on such longer flights, but won't be surprised if anyone say they used the 140-seaters.
I like that Sterling used their Caravelles to their max potential - it proved that the aircraft were great and durable and worked well for 27 years.

A Sterling -10B had its left main gear collapse when landing in 1992, and Sterling grounded their -10B fleet after that and then retired it. The airline was struggling financially and probably found that the AD's required was not worth it. Sterling closed shop in 1993. Sterling European rose from the ashes in 1994 using only B727-200Adv.

Danish Museum of Science and Technology in Helsingør has an ex-SAS Caravelle III that is open to the public, I have been there several times and like it. There is also a big exhibition there with Sterling's history, including a mini-mock-up of their Caravelle 12.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:18 pm

Great thread from V/F

Here are two photos that sum up the Caravelle for me

Firstly, note the absolutely flat approach. What you cannot appreciate from the photo is that those large wings ( = low wing loading) meant that the SE-210 floated gracefully on to the runway, unlike their contempories (DC-9s and 737s) which always seemed to arrive in a hurry.


And of course, this photo always guarantees a smile.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:46 pm

The Caravelle was not a regional jet, not even a short haul jet. It was conceived as a medium range aircraft, to serve routes such as Paris-Casablanca, with a full payload. Interestingly, Super Caravelles served transatlantic charter flights with Sterling, a Danish operator.

The initial capacity (75 pax) is to be compared with DC-6s or Super Constellation, the norm when the Caravelle was launched in 1952.

It shared a lot with the Comet; SNCASE bought the design of the nose, and even the 2 cockpit sections of the prototypes were manufactured by de Havilland. However, even before the Comet 1 grounding, French engineers indentified some obvious shortcomings in the de Havilland structure design; for instance stringers had discontinuity, etc. de Havilland expertise was obviously wooden, not metallic construction. In the end, the Caravelle could nearly do as much as the Comet, with 2 Avons instead of 4...

Sud Aviation (SNCASE merged with SNCASO in 1957) entered commercial agreements with de Havilland then Douglas. Douglas helped a lot with the design of the Super Caravelle 10B with the PW engines and promoted sales in the Americas (a contract was signed with TWA but never materialised), but then decided they were better off with a new short product of their own, the DC-9. It was bitterly resented in Toulouse, but was logical. The Caravelle design had some shortcomings, one of them being the circular fuselage cross section offering little cargo space. The DC-9 fixed that with a bi-lobed cross section.

The other issue is that Sud Aviation embarked in the supersonic direction and did not develop its subsonic airliner range. The Caravelle replacement was taken over by Dassault with the Mercure, a nice aircraft but a commercial disaster. Then Airbus came.

Please refer to John Wegg book, Caravelle, the complete story, the definitive history on this aircraft.
 
Jalap
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:58 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
as well as highlighting new photos when they are published in the database here.

Here you are :)



Very nice one added today.
I've got 2 Sabena Caravelle (OO-SRF and OO-SRI) slides scanned already but not yet uploaded. Found them in my family archive.
Also got a few others I did shoot myself, perhaps in honour of this thread I should do some uploading again soon :)
Even if none of those are the quality of Mr.Parkhouse's Luxair Caravelle...
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:59 am

MSN 02 - Caravelle Prototype
First flight: 6 May 1956

Operator: Sud Aviation
Registration: F-WHHI
Re-registered: F-BHHI (19 March 1957)

MSN 02 was the second Caravelle prototype.


Final flight: 1968

MSN 02 was subsequently stored at Vilgenis (the site of Air France's technical school, just outside of Orly Airport), before being broken up in 1976. The nose section is on display at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace at Le Bourget. Sections of the forward fuselage previously served as entrances to the museum, but are now derelict (you can find a photo at another aviation photography website by searching for the registration F-BHHI).



You can see some more great photos of F-BHHI at:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
DavidByrne
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:39 am

My one and only Caravelle flight was in mid-1988 when I took the Air Caledonie flight SYD-NOU. I vividly recall it for two reasons: First, I sat in the last row, which had no window. Hmmm. The second reason was that, being so close to those very noisy engines, my ears rang for hours and hours afterward.

But all of that was more than compensated for by the fact of actually travelling on that rare (by 1988) aircraft.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
SR100
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 am

This thread brings back wonderful memories - I flew as a child on Swissair, Austrian, Iberia, TAP Caravelles in the 60s, on Air France and SATA Caravelles in the 70s, and finally on CTA Caravelles in the 80s.

There are two awesome videos starring the Caravelle on YouTube, however both are not in English, but still they are worth watching.

The older one, in French, is from 1962 and it is - what we would call today - a trip report of a SABENA Caravelle flight from Brussels to Madrid, on to Lisbon and then to Las Palmas. It is called "Sabena Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Travelogue - 1962".
There are many impressions of the journey, the cabin, the galleys and the service provided on a such typical inter-European multi-stop flight, but also from the flight deck. The scenes are clearly not staged and they bring back the groove of air travel in the early 60s, including some heavy cigarette smoke while a flight attendant was interviewed in-flight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAX-V_7S9g

The other one, in German, is about how to become a hostess - that's what these female only flight attendants were called by Austrian Airlines in the mid-60s.

The header is "Alle Tage in der Luft". The entire hiring and training process is shown, from interviews to various trainings including a scene in which the Caravelle L1 door slide is deployed - well, I rather should say some plastic was rolled down and needed to be hold by crew members, then you see work on a Vickers Viscount domestic flight and finally to a trip report on an Austrian Caravelle from Vienna through Istanbul to Beirut - with a total of five FAs for a total of less than 100 passengers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eunn5WV6yTk
Flown all types and variants of Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, Bombardier, DC, Embraer, Fokker, ATR, plus BAe146-1/2/3, Britannia, Caravelle, Comet, Concord, CV440/990, M404, Herald, Avro, Trident-1/2/3, IL-18/62, SWM, Viscount, VC-10, Tu-104/134/154, YS-11
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:24 am

Thank you for this great thread about the most elegant airliner ever built.

I am lucky enough to work where they were once assembled, and to live nearby 2 beautiful surviving airframes.

One of them is the last Caravelle ever built (Caravelle 12 F-BTOE n°280), now on display outside the great Aeroscopia museum (right next to the Concorde) in its beautiful Air Inter livery (refreshed in 2014, previously painted with an Aerospatiale livery). Here she is crossing the road between A380 assembly line and Aeroscopia museum:



The other one is even more interesting, it's a Caravelle 10B3 F-GHMU n°249 with an Air Toulouse livery displayed right next to the museum, and belongs to the Ailes Anciennes association. Originally delivered to Danish charter airline Sterling, it became the personal aircraft of Emperor Bokassa of the Central African Republic in 1975. Five years later, it returned to Europe and was operated by Europe Air Service in France, until sold to Air Toulouse in 1992. It clocked a total flying time of 41,038hrs and 23,000 take-offs and landings. (source: https://aatlse.org/en/appareils/se-210-10b3-caravelle/)



I will read each of your 282 posts with great interest.
Caravelle lover
 
Pendennis
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:56 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
UAL operated the Caravelle with 3 pilots. were there any European operators that used 3 crew as well?

United operated the 737 with 3 pilots as well Frontier was the first to do it with 2 pilots for which UA ALPA Never forgave them and got revenge for in later years.


Please remember the cockpit of the Caravelle came straight from the DH Comet; that had a flight engineer's station and all the Caravelles I flew on (in the jump seat) had two pilots plus an engineer.

I believe at the time of introduction of the 737-200 there was a weight limit for the use of a two-man crew (85,000lbs rings a bell, being a US regulation it used imperial measurements) and the 737 was above the limit; the BAC 111 and DC-9-10 were designed to remain below the limit.
 
BravoOne
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:39 pm

The FE panel on the Comet (4C) was from the floor to the ceiling so no way it would have been part of the Caravelle design other than as stated, the nose section. (Beautiful). I was once in the cockpit of a UAL Caravelle while parked at the gate in MSP. As I recall the FE/SO sat on a rather small seat with minimal switches and gauges to use while performing his duties.

I think 80,000# was the crossover weight regarding the requirement to have an FE. Rather arbitrary, but things were a lot simpler in those days. The DC6, and 049 Constelleations and B307 were the first airliners to require the FE, although you could actually ferry the DC6 under certain conditions without an FE.
 
hitower3
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:06 pm

Dear a-netters,

One of my very first flights was on the Caravelle. Back in 1982, we went home from Gran Canaria Island to Cologne CGN. I remember it had a green cheatline and vertical stabilizer. Does anyone know which airline it could have been?
 
AY104
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:17 pm

Thank You for starting this wonderful thread. An excellent tribute to a very fine aircraft indeed. Having worked for various airlines for over 25 years, I remember the Caravelle as being one of the most reliable aircraft. I served for Finnair at Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam, Netherlands from 1972 - 1975. Finnair at the time operated the Sud Aviation SE 210 Caravelle 10B (Super-Caravelle). After 45 years, I still remember the configuration for scheduled flights: 12F 72Y or 12F 67Y. Depending upon cargo loads, a row of seats could be removed and a curtained cargo area immediately aft of the front passenger door, either side of the aisle was fitted. In particular, one flight AY846, which operated AMS-GOT-HEL was a nightmare for the cargo representatives. The aircraft was very tail heavy, and the main cargo out of AMS, bound for GOT was fresh flowers, and the boxes were so light. If there was a light passenger load, as much cargo as possible was to be loaded in the front cargo pits and also cargo area 5, in the front of the passenger cabin. If the passenger load was 35 or less, all passengers had to be seated in the first 7 rows of Y for takeoff and landing. In spite of these restrictions, the Caravelle was very spacious and comfortable. Even on charter flights, in an all 97Y configuration, very comfortable. And I can recall very few delays. Two daily flights were operated out of SPL daily, one was AY846 AMS-GOT-HEL and the other AY854 AMS-HAM-HEL. Up until about 1972, AY854 actual operated ORY-AMS-HAM-HEL. Leaving HEL as AY853 early in the morning, routed HEL-HAM-AMS-ORY. Meal service from HEL-HAM and AMS-ORY.

The Super Caravelle was also the main equipment on many domestic flights. It was operated as all Y configuration, using F seats for Y class. No meal service, and I can remember no beverage service either on domestic. The longest domestic flight being 55min on the Super Caravelle.

We also did occasional handling for Sterling Airways, operating a Super Caravelle, when they stopped at AMS for refueling, enroute from Spain or other southern holiday destinations. I never did get onboard to see the exact cabin layout, but they fitted in a couple of extra rows of seats from the Finnair layout.

The Finnair charter flights to and from HEL normally stopped at LUX for refueling.

Finnair operated during this time 8 Super Caravelle aircraft, each one named after a Finnish city: Helsinki, Turku, Tampere, Jyvaskyla, Kuopio, Oulu, Lahti, Rovaniemi.
Last edited by AY104 on Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
Noshow
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:18 pm

Dear a-netters,
One of my very first flights was on the Caravelle. Back in 1982, we went home from Gran Canaria Island to Cologne CGN. I remember it had a green cheatline and vertical stabilizer. Does anyone know which airline it could have been?


Germania.
https://www.google.com/search?q=SE+Cara ... aFhNyEbt4M:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(airline)
 
AY104
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:28 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
Great thread. In the 1980s I remember Sterling Airways Caravelle 10Bs flying over my house as I lived close to Gardermoen airport (GEN) which is today's OSL. Sterling had its Norwegian base there and was a well-known charter carrier - many of us flew them when going on holidays. I really wanted to be a FA with them but sadly they went bust before I was old enough to apply for a job there. I never flew their Caravelle but did fly on their B727-200Adv - loved it! Both my older sisters flew on the Caravelle when going on holidays and they didnt like it, the plane felt very old and worn. Several decades later I became an FA with Norwegian and there I had many colleagues who were FAs and pilots with Sterling Airways - and boy, did I ask thousands of questions and they answered with great pleasure, because they all loved working for Sterling Airways. So my information about Caravelle is mostly from Sterling Airways FAs who worked onboard this lovely aircraft.

Sterling Airways started operating the Caravelle 10B in 1965 in a one-class layout with 105-109 seats at 29/30 inch pitch. Sterling operated the -10B until 1992, so 27 years of reliable service. The 10B had enough range to fly Oslo/Stockholm - southern Spain and Greek islands with 109 pax nonstop. 105/109 seats was enough to make money and was right-sized for a lot of holiday routes in the 1970s-1980s year-round. FAs liked working onboard the -10B as it had big aisle-facing galleys forward and aft with enough room for two FAs to work efficiently. The forward galley had all the passenger meals - there was one oven to warm bread rolls and crew food, passengers received a cold meal. The aft galley was located between the lavatories and the tail exit and was filled to the brim with duty free products and drinks carts. The huge onboard duty free sales was the main reason the airline existed for so long, many flights had an extra FA onboard to help pack all the duty free orders - some flights were only 90 minutes long (CPH-STN) but had normal service: drinks, meal and duty free shopping. The FAs were often sweaty and still wearing their serving vests/aprons during landing after working very hard to deliver the full inflight service in 90 minutes.

Sterling also leased some series III with 93-99 seats during busy seasons.

In 1971 Sterling was launch customer of the Caravelle 12. They ordered 12 aircraft but took only 7. The remaining 5 went to Air Inter. The first four -12 had 140 seats at 28 inch pitch and was able to fly to most Mediterranean destinations from CPH, their main base. The last three had 131 seats with 29/30 inch pitch. In the mid-1970s cracks were found in the wings or wing-to-fuselage section and the -12 were grounded for some time. A fix was implemented but took 6 months per aircraft, which led to lost orders from other airlines. In the early 1980s the 182-seat B727-200Adv was more useful and flexible for Sterling as it could fly non-stop Scandinavia - Canary islands/Morocco/Egypt and pax numbers increased every year. The -12 were phased out of Sterling's fleet in 1983 and found a new home with French carriers Air Provence and Air Inter and flew into the early 1990s.

Sterling used their -10B and -12 on charter flights to Sri Lanka and Goa with 2-3 fuel stops. They also flew to Florida and Caribbean with fuel stops at KEF and BGR. I'm guessing Sterling used the 131-seat -12 on these flights as they offered slightly better legroom on such longer flights, but won't be surprised if anyone say they used the 140-seaters.
I like that Sterling used their Caravelles to their max potential - it proved that the aircraft were great and durable and worked well for 27 years.

A Sterling -10B had its left main gear collapse when landing in 1992, and Sterling grounded their -10B fleet after that and then retired it. The airline was struggling financially and probably found that the AD's required was not worth it. Sterling closed shop in 1993. Sterling European rose from the ashes in 1994 using only B727-200Adv.

Danish Museum of Science and Technology in Helsingør has an ex-SAS Caravelle III that is open to the public, I have been there several times and like it. There is also a big exhibition there with Sterling's history, including a mini-mock-up of their Caravelle 12.


Great to read your post about Sterling Airways. When I worked for Finnair at SPL, we occasionally handled their flights, when they made a fuel stop returning back from Spain or some other southern holiday destination.
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:56 pm

:cry: Why did UAL only operate the Caravelle for such a short period of time? Did it burn too much fuel or were they maintenance nightmares?
My dad worked at UA back in the day, and his take on the caravelle was NO room for bags and cargo. He said they were doing good to get all the checked bags on the same flight as the pax. Somedays they didn't. I can't say whether fuel costs and 3 in the cockpit weren't the real reason for their early departure from the UA fleet, but wasn't it about the same time they got the agreement for 2 pilot 73S?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
LucaDiMontanari
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:31 pm

We should not forget, that the Caravelle was a first generation jetliner, which was pretty much outdated by 1970. Aviation technology advanced in a incredible fast pace back then and UA probably just did had no more reason to keep this small and technically obsolete orphan fleet alive. Fuel consumption on the other hand wasn't that much of a deal before the 1973 oil crisis.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:17 pm

Some unusual pictures of Caravelle III msn 116 used by the Centre d'Essais en Vol (CEV) and undergoing in-flight evacuation test using the rear stair.

Image

Image

This evacuation method was never used in service. There are however unconfirmed rumors those tests were not just for evacutation and Caravelles might have been used to drop agents in various exotic parts of the world...
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:15 pm

armagnac2010 wrote:
Some unusual pictures of Caravelle III msn 116 used by the Centre d'Essais en Vol (CEV) and undergoing in-flight evacuation test using the rear stair.

This evacuation method was never used in service. There are however unconfirmed rumors those tests were not just for evacutation and Caravelles might have been used to drop agents in various exotic parts of the world...


Great set of pictures, I had never seen those before. Thanks for sharing them!
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
teva
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:17 pm

During my service time, in 89/90, my job was to check-in passengers for the 3 French Air force Caravelles based in Polynesia. I learned how to load them, and how to make weight and balance calculations. One of them was called Teva (PT). And guess what... loading planes is still my job today...
The 3 Caravelles we had were -11R .We used them in a kind of quick change/combi mode. The first rows of seats were on pallets. Then, in 10/15 minutes, we could have a full pax, or 1 PAG pallet and 72 pax or 2 PAG and 56 pax.
That was fascinating.
I was in NTTX, and we had flights to/from NTAA and NTTO.

And of course, I've been a passenger several times. I will never forget the arrival in Tahiti observed from the cockpit.

These 3 Caravelles have been sold to a Belgian company, Eureka, And Eureka sold them to Africa (Gabon Express and Malu/Waltair). they were the last 3 flying Caravelles.


Do you know that an Air Inter Caravelle was the first commercial aircraft in the world to perform a Cat III landing, in 69?

In April 59, an Air France Caravelle glided between Paris and Dijon to demonstrate the capabilities before entry in service.

A Caravelle has been used between 84 and 95 as a Zero G aircraft.

I agree with some of you: DC9 is not an exact copy from the Caravelle. However, after the failure of the contract with Sud, they kept at least the concept of rear mounted engines and the ventral stairs. (that made Caravelle autonomous and with the most silent cabin in the 60s)
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VirginFlyer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:15 am

MSN 1 - Caravelle III (converted from Caravelle I)
First flight: 18 May 1958
Test registration: F-WHRA

Operator: Air France
Delivery Date: 3 April 1959
Registration: F-BHRA
Name: Alsace

F-BHRA conducted Air France's first revenue Caravelle service on 6 May 1959, flying Orly to Rome (Ciampino) to Athens to Istanbul and return. F-BHRA was converted to Series III specifications in 1960, and gave over 16 years of service to Air France before retirement in 1975.




Final flight: December 1975

After retirement from flight, F-BHRA served as an instructional airframe at Vilgénis until 2006 when Air France shifted their technical training to CDG. Iin 2011 the aircraft was purchased by Dutchman Piet Smedt, and shifted by road to Baarlo in the Netherlands, where it is now on display.





For more information about F-BHRA:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:36 am

teva wrote:
Do you know that an Air Inter Caravelle was the first commercial aircraft in the world to perform a Cat III landing, in 69?
Good catch!

I was sufficiently intrigued by your comment that I checked your claim, and found the following.
Autoland Cat 1
Flight BE 343 on 10 June 1965, with a Trident 1 G-ARPR, from Paris to Heathrow with Captains Eric Poole and Frank Ormonroyd

Cat 2
The HS Trident was certified to Cat II on 7 February 1968.

Cat 3 (also styled "IIIa" )
The first aircraft to be certified to Cat III standards, on 28 December 1968 was the Sud Aviation Caravelle

Cat IIIb
Hawker-Siddeley HS.121 Trident was certified in May 1972 (Cat 3 or IIIa) and to Cat IIIb during 1975.

I've also seen a quote that we had to wait until 1981 for the first Cat IIIb Autoland in commercial service, and that wasn't a Trident either! (BA L-1011 @ LHR).

At times I'm not sure what to believe anymore. :old:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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ntehrani
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:34 pm

Here's a really interesting take: Quora user Isaac Low makes the case that Airbus's 'notched' cockpit windows in the A300 (and related) and A320 nose are an aesthetic feature going back to the first Sud-Aviation produced Caravelle noses (which had larger windows than the first, Comet-derived noses). A cool read!

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-last-c ... rs-cut-off
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:14 pm

Cat II was certified on the Caravelle on 25 September 1964.

Cat IIIA was certified on the Caravelle at the end of 1968. The first ever real Cat IIIA landing in commercial service was accomplished by an Air Inter crew on 9 January 1969 (many had been done before in 'normal' visual conditions, for certification training demonstration purposes).

Please bear in mind this requires aircraft certification, but also ground equipement and operator approvals, including crew training.

On the British side, BOAC got Cat II approval for the VC-10 in 1969; BEA got it for the Trident during the 1970/71 winter, Cat IIIA followed in 1972 and IIIB in 1975.

Source: John Wegg, Caravelle, the complete story.
 
hitower3
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:41 pm

Noshow wrote:


Tank you very much!
It's always a pleasure when old memories are "attached" to some actual facts.

Best regards,
Hendric
 
enplaned
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:23 pm

As a kid I flew the Caravelle from Gothenburg to Stockholm in winter 73. No thrust reversers and there was snow - I was disappointed when we did not deploy the parachute out the back. Triangular windows, so cool.

Same trip involved a Trident from LHR to ORY and another from HAM to LHR. And a 737-100 from CPH to HAM. ORY international terminal also burned down while we were in Paris, just to make things exciting. And the same week there was a general strike. It was a full-on 1970s experience.
 
hitower3
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:32 pm

Quick and stupid question: Why didn't any aircraft manufacturer use triangular windows past the Caravelle?
 
Trk1
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:44 pm

I loved taking the United Caravelle from Cleveland many times. Was configured in first class only and had great meals on short trips
such as Cleveland to Chicago and Newark. Anyone have pictures of the United configuration??
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:23 pm

hitower3 wrote:
Quick and stupid question: Why didn't any aircraft manufacturer use triangular windows past the Caravelle?


Probably the better question is why would you think triangular windows would make sense? If you think about the typical way a fuselage was constructed at that time, with vertical ribs and horizontal longerons and stringers, triangular windows don't fit well into that paradigm.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:48 pm

In flight, passengers are looking down; hence the triangular shape for the window was retained because it was perceived it optimised both the visibilty and weight (windows are heavier than metal structure).

Windows had large radius thus avoiding stress concentration.

A business jet, the North American Sabreliner adopted the same shape for its windows.
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:08 am

MSN 2 - Caravelle III (converted from Caravelle I)
First flight: 4 March 1959
Test registration: F-WHRB

Operator: Air France
Delivery Date: 19 March 1959
Registration: F-BHRB
Name: Lorraine

F-BHRB was the second Caravelle for Air France, but was actually delivered before -BHRA. It conducted a demonstation flight with VIPs on board on 1 May 1959, flying the same Orly to Rome (Ciampino) to Athens to Istanbul and return route that service would start on the following week. F-BHRB was converted to Series III specifications in 1961, and gave over 18 years of service to Air France before retirement in 1977.





Final flight: December 1977

After retirement from flight, F-BHRB was broken up in January 1978.

For more information about F-BHRB:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:09 am

In yesterday's post about F-BHRA, I failed to include this great little piece about F-BHRA and the Caravelle from Air France, including a wonderful video: https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/news/caravelle-years

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
tnair1974
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:52 pm

SFOThinker wrote:
I flew United’s Caravelles quite a few times when I was young and had the cards issued to college students, allowing half fare flying on standby. They were all first class, if I recall. I don’t recall, but I suspect I paid half of coach fare on those flights.
I never flew the United “Executive Flights” that operated between LGA and ORD featuring cigars, but limited to males only, operated with Caravelles. Times certainly have changed!

Times changed quickly :checkeredflag: at that! Only a short time after United's Executive Flights ended in 1970 (same year UA retired their Caravelles), UA hired their first female pilot. The late Gail Gorski started flying in 1978 and decades later capped off her career as a UA 744 Captain.

Did UA's Executive Flights use only Caravelles or were other aircraft utilized?

As a side note, Convair designed their 880 around all first class seating. IIRC, only DL ordered their 880s in this layout and even they later reconfigured their 880s with a mixed class layout. Perhaps a sign that as more ordinary Joes and Janes started flying, all first class service like UA Executive service and DL's first class 880s were becoming less relevant.
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:28 am

I flew on quite a few Airborne Express SE-210 Caravelle cargo flights as loadmaster, I remember taxiing at IAH and Air France
was on the next taxiway over and they said on ground freq with French accent "My God it;s a Caravelle"
We flew MIA-TPA and getting off the plane an FBO line person asked me what kind of DC-9 is that? I kinda chuckled but
it was likely the first time he saw a Caravelle!

Nice riding airplane and loved flying on it! Sadly all ABX SE-210's were parked late 84 due to noise rules. Several planes
were donated to airports as fire trainers or museum planes CVG, CMH and BDL come to mind.
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:09 am

Four new Caravelle photos have been uploaded into the database:




V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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ro1960
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:45 am

keesje wrote:
A nice video of one of the later Caravelle operational flights to Libreville, in 1999.

https://youtu.be/TT3vioHx1g4

I plan to make 282 posts over the course of this thread


:bigthumbsup:


Nice video indeed. Love the detail shots and the landing!

Anyone knows why the main door is on the right?
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:52 am

MSN 3 - Caravelle III (converted from Caravelle I)

Operator: Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS)
Delivery Date: 10 April 1959
Registration: LN-KLH
Name: Finn Viking

LN-KLH was the first Caravelle for Scandinavian Airlines System, and flew the first revenue Caravelle flight on 26 April 1959.






Final flight: 26 September 1974

After retirement from flight, LN-KLH was donated to the Norwegian Air Museum at Gardemoen, Oslo, Norway. It was outdoors until 1985, when it was moved to the new Norsk Teknisk Museum (Norwegian Museum of Science and Technology) at Kjelsås, north of Oslo, where it remains on display today.

For more information about LN-KLH:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:55 am

Max Q wrote:
If I remember correctly, early versions used a braking parachute after landing


Only on the models with no reversers. Used only on wet runways I believe, though.
You may like my airport photos:
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:09 pm

ro1960 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A nice video of one of the later Caravelle operational flights to Libreville, in 1999.

https://youtu.be/TT3vioHx1g4

I plan to make 282 posts over the course of this thread


:bigthumbsup:


Nice video indeed. Love the detail shots and the landing!

Anyone knows why the main door is on the right?

I believe it is because the door on the left is part of the cargo door on the Series 11R - it appears it may not go all the way to floor level. This photo shows it well:



V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
Archer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:18 pm

Someone mentioned a freight airline earlier. A while back there was a Caravelle at the New England Air Museum on Bradley Field that serves Hartford, Ct. and Springfield, MA. Not sure it's still there.
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:59 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Anyone knows why the main door is on the right?

I believe it is because the door on the left is part of the cargo door on the Series 11R - it appears it may not go all the way to floor level. This photo shows it well:



V/F


Thanks. Indeed you see the outline of the cargo door. Was there many cargo Caravelles? I never saw any.
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:42 pm

ro1960 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Anyone knows why the main door is on the right?

I believe it is because the door on the left is part of the cargo door on the Series 11R - it appears it may not go all the way to floor level. This photo shows it well:



V/F


Thanks. Indeed you see the outline of the cargo door. Was there many cargo Caravelles? I never saw any.

There were six Series 11Rs: MSNs 215, 219, 240, 251, 261, 264.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
eagleTM
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Great thread. There should be more threads of those 'second row' aircraft (Trident, Mercure) that are somehow never forgotten but also never really remembered if this makes sense.
The Caravelle itself is a gorgeous plane and I wish I had the chance to get to see one 'as new' but most rescued planes are in bad shape, at least compared to their best time back in the days.

I do not have anything myself to contribute but I was wondering if anyone could lend me his/her knowledge about the Caravelle's cabin dimensions. From what limited info about this small field of interest I could gather, it had usually 5-abreast and that's about it. Anyone has this type of info on width and length of the cabin of the three different sizes of Caravelles?

Thanks.
 
Metz727
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:41 pm

I had the pleasure to fly the SE210 three times, all on Sterling Airways including the farewell flight from Copenhagen - Luxembourg / return on 15 January 1992. Unfortunately I do not have the registration number for that flight but maybe somebody here can help ?? Would be much appreciated.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:37 pm

I had the pleasure to fly the SE210 three times, all on Sterling Airways including the farewell flight from Copenhagen - Luxembourg / return on 15 January 1992. Unfortunately I do not have the registration number for that flight but maybe somebody here can help ?? Would be much appreciated.


Msn 265 / OY-STI, flight NB092
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:08 am

MSN 4 - Caravelle III (converted from Caravelle I)

First flight: 15 April
Operator: Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS)
Delivery Date: 25 April 1959
Registration: SE-DAA
Name: Eskil Viking

SE-DAA was the second Caravelle for Scandinavian Airlines System, entering service on 15 May 1959.



It was converted to Series III specification in April 1960. Comparing the photos above and below gives a good impression of the different engine configuration on the Series I and Series III.



From 21 June 1970 to 1 October 1970 it was leased to Thai Airways, then returned to service with SAS until July 1974, for a total of just over 15 years in service.



Final flight: 28 July 1974

After retirement from flight, SE-DAA served as a fire and ground handling trainer at Stockholm-Arlanda, where it remains today, apparently now used as a cabin crew trainer by Novair since 2013.








The nose was cut off in mid-1998 and taken to the Finnish Aviation Museum for restoration, however it has remained derelict and is now on private property in Joroinen, 200km north-east of Helsinki.



For more information about SE-DAA:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Re: The Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle Thread

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:11 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
MSN 3 - Caravelle III (converted from Caravelle I)

Operator: Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS)
Delivery Date: 10 April 1959
Registration: LN-KLH
Name: Finn Viking

LN-KLH was the first Caravelle for Scandinavian Airlines System, and flew the first revenue Caravelle flight on 26 April 1959.






Final flight: 26 September 1974

After retirement from flight, LN-KLH was donated to the Norwegian Air Museum at Gardemoen, Oslo, Norway. It was outdoors until 1985, when it was moved to the new Norsk Teknisk Museum (Norwegian Museum of Science and Technology) at Kjelsås, north of Oslo, where it remains on display today.

For more information about LN-KLH:

V/F

My apologies, yesterday I missed a couple of important pieces of detail for LN-KLH, which are given on the Famgus site. It first flew on March 23 1959, and was converted to Series III specification in October 1960.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh

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