Ten days ago an interesting anniversary passed by quietly - 65 years since the first flight of the Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle on 27 May 1955. The Caravelle was the fourth jet airliner to fly (after the De Havilland DH-106 Comet on 27 July 1949, the Avro Canada C102 Jetliner on 10 August 1949, and the Boeing 367-80 on 15 July 1954, and just before the Tupolev Tu-104 on 17 June 1955), and entered service nearly four years later on 29th April 1959, becoming the fourth jet airliner to enter service (behind the Comet on 2 May 1952, the Tu-104 on 15 September 1956, and the Boeing 707 on 26 October 1958). Power was supplied by two Rolls Royce Avon turbojets in a pioneering tail-mounted configuration that would go on to be the model for many other aircraft types such as the Tupolev Tu-134, BAC One Eleven, and Douglas DC-9, to name but a few. The configuration to this day remains the default for business jets and a number of regional jets. Other distinctive features of the Caravelle included the aerodynamic nose (taken directly from the Comet) which now seems prescient of 21st century airliners, the triangular windows which maximised downward visibility for a given surface area, rounded tail fin, and the cruciform tail configuration, which was also adopted by the Dassault line of business jets and the Aérospatiale Corvette.

221 of the 282 Caravelles built were powered by the Avon, with one powered by the General Electric CJ805 aft-fan turbofan, and the remaining 60 by the Pratt & Whitney JT8D turbofans. Interestingly, Avon-powered aircraft continued to be produced after the introduction of the JT8D; the last Avon-powered Caravelle was msn 258, the 265th Caravelle built which first flew in June 1970. By my count, this would make the Caravelle the most widely produced turbojet-powered airliner (ahead of 202 707-120/-138/-220/-320s and 720s, 201 Tu-104s, 120 DC-8-10/-20/-30s and 113 Comets), and the last subsonic turbojet-powered airliner in production.

There were a number of variants produced throughout the production life of the Caravelle:

• Prototype - powered by Avon RA.26 Mark 522 turbojets with 44.5 kN (10,000 lbf) thrust each. 2 built.
• Series I - featured a 1.5m stretch from the prototype, and powered by Avon RA.29/1 Mark 522 turbojets with 44.5 kN (10,000 lbf) thrust each. 20 built.
• Series IA - powered by Avon RA.29/1 Mark 522A turbojets with 46.7 kN (10,500 lbf) thrust each. 12 built.
• Series III - powered by Avon RA.29/3 Mark 527 turbojets with 50.7 kN (11,400 lbf) thrust each. 78 built, plus the 31 surviving I and IA were upgraded to Series III (msn 14, a series I, was lost in an accident on 19 January 1960)
• Series VI-N - powered by Avon RA.29/6 Mark 531 turbojets with 54.3 kN (12,200 lbf) thrust and noise suppression exhausts. 53 built, plus 5 Series IIIs upgraded.
• Series VI-R - powered by Avon RA.29 Mark 533R or Mark 535R turbojets with 56.2 kN (12,625 lbf) thrust each, with thrust reversers. The series VI-R also introduced spoilers and larger cockpit windows which would be carried through to the Series 10A, Series 10B, Series 10R, Series 11R and Series 12. These changes were to meet the requirements of United Airlines, who ordered 20 Caravelle's in a major breakthrough into the American market. 56 built.
• Series VII - powered by CJ805-23C turbofans with 53.4 kN (12,000 lbf) thrust. Development switched to the 10A. 1 converted from a Series III, then converted back after testing ended.
• Series 10A - powered by CJ805-23C turbofans with 53.4 kN (12,000 lbf) thrust, with a number of changes: a 1m fuselage stretch forward of the wing (offsetting the increased weight of the engines), raised window line, modified wing with leading edge root extension, larger horizontal stabiliser with an aerodynamic bullet fairing behind it, and an APU in the tail cone. Developed for TWA, who went with the DC-9 instead, and was not further developed. 1 built.
• Series 10B3 - powered by JT8D-7 turbofans with 62.3 kN (14,000 lbf) thrust each, with the structural and aerodynamic enhancements of the 10A. 22 built.
• Series 10R - powered by JT8D-7 turbofans with 62.3 kN (14,000 lbf) thrust each, matched to the Series VI-R fuselage, wing and tail (i.e. no APU, no leading edge root extensions, no bullet fairing). 20 built.
• Series 11R - powered by JT8D-7 turbofans with 62.3 kN (14,000 lbf) thrust each, essentially a 10R with a 70cm stretch ahead of the wing, incorporating a cargo door to enable a combi configuration. Unlike the 10R, the 11R did have an APU. 6 built.
• Series 12 - powered by JT8D-9 turbofans with 64.5 kN (14,500 lbf) thrust each, essentially a 10B3 with the uprated engines and a total stretch of 3.23m compared to the the 10B3 (Looking at photographs and counting window spacing, I would estimate 2m ahead of the wing and 1.23m behind the wing, but I'm willing to be corrected on that). Designed for the charter market. 12 built.

The Series 10, 11, and 12 aircraft were collectively referred to as Super Caravelles (a name previously used for Sud's SST studies), and you will see some carried Super 10 or Super 12 branding. You will notice from photos that some Caravelles of different series have an extension from the fin along the top of the fuselage; this is a high frequency radio antenna, and is independent of the series. From photos it seems they were more common than not, although there were some notable exceptions including United's Series VI-Rs, Finnair's Series 10B3s, and the Series 12s.

By the time the final Caravelle (msn 280, a Series 12) took to the skies for the first time in Toulouse in March 1973, Sud Aviation had been merged with Nord Aviation and SAREB to form Aerospatiale, and both A300B1 prototypes were flying from the same airport. By the 1990s the Caravelle had mostly exited service, and Caravelle operations ended in 2004 with the loss of the final Caravelle in service, a Series 11R 3D-KIK, which landed on the 1000m x 23m strip at Gisenyi, Rwanda, 2km east of the 2000m x 45m runway at Goma, Democratic Republic of the Congo where it was supposed to land. The aircraft ran off the strip, broke up and burnt out.


I am hoping this thread will be an opportunity to share memories, stories, and information about the Caravelle, as well as highlighting new photos when they are published in the database here. There are a few useful resources on the web I have come across regarding the Caravelle:

• The De Havilland Comet & Sud Caravelle - Greg Goebel - AirVectors
• SudAviation.com - Everything related to the SE 210 Caravelle
• Remember the Caravelle - Vintage Aviation Photos by Michael Prophet
• Caravelle Specifications by Christopher Lea

If you know of other useful Caravelle resources please feel free to share them.

As a bit of a task over the coming months, I plan to make 282 posts over the course of this thread, detailing the history and showing photos of each Caravelle. In doing this I will be using a couple of production lists for sources:

• Airlinerlist: http://www.planelist.net/types.html#caravelle
• RZJets: https://rzjets.net/aircraft/?page=1&typeid=1

I feel a personal connection to this aircraft type, as it was one of the first I flew on in 1987, from Auckland to Noumea - Air Caledonie International's Series 10B3 F-GEPC (msn 184). A new photo of this aircraft was added just yesterday to the database here (the one I used to illustrate the Series 10B3 above).

I hope you will all enjoy this thread dedicated to La Belle Caravelle!

V/F

Perhaps it is interesting to add the operators of the Caravelle over the years:

Civil operators:
- Air Algérie
- Aerolíneas Argentinas (1962–1973)
- Austrian Airlines
- Belgian International Air Services
- SABENA
- Sobelair
- Cruzeiro do Sul
- Panair do Brasil
- VARIG
- Air Burundi
- Air Cambodge
- Air Centrafrique
- Lan Chile
- Air Afrique
- Aerotal Colombia
- Aerocesar Colombia
- Air Congo
- Waltair (DR Congo)
- Sterling Airways
- SAETA
- SAN Ecuador
- Egyptair (Leased from Sterling)
- Finnair
- Kar-Air
- Aerotour
- Air Charter International
- Air France
- Air Inter
- Air Provence
- Catair
- Corse Air
- Euralair
- Europe Aero Service
- Minerve
- Trans-Union
- Union des Transports Aeriens
- Air Gabon
- Gabon Express
- Aero Lloyd (1980)[11]
- LTU
- Special Air Transport (SAT)
- Indian Airlines
- Pushpaka
- Aerolinee Itavia
- Alitalia
- Altair
- Società Aerea Mediterranea
- Alia
- Royal Air Lao
- Air Liban
- Middle East Airlines
- Kingdom of Libya Airlines
- Luxair
- Air Mali
- Royal Air Maroc
- Air Martinique
- Air Caledonie International
- Transavia
- Filipinas Orient Airways
- Sterling Philippines Airways
- Transasian Airways
- TAP Air Portugal
- Aviaco
- Iberia Airlines
- TAE
- Transeuropa
- SAS
- Transwede
- Balair
- CTA
- SATA
- Swissair
- Air City
- Syrian Arab Airlines
- China Airlines
- Far Eastern Air Transport
- Thai Airways International
- Tunisair
- Istanbul Airlines
- Midwest Air Charter/Airborne Express
- United Airlines
- Avensa
- Air Vietnam
- Air Yugoslavia
- Inex Adria Aviopromet
- JAT Yugoslav Airlines
- Affro Cargo
- Air Zaire

Military and government operators:
- Algerian Air Force
- Argentine Air Force
- Central African Empire/Republic Government
- Chad Government
- French Air Force
- Gabon Government
- Mauritanian Government
- Mexican Air Force
- Rwanda Government
- Senegal Government
- Swedish Air Force
- Yugoslav Air Force

Source: Wikipedia........

An impressive jet airplane. Early design and long living. Even with early export success in the USA.
I remember them from Berlin. Air France used Caravelles for a long time. When they parked at the stand at Tegel they looked tiny. Any Pan Am 727-200 looked as big as a DC-10 for comparison. When Caravelles descended at idle for a landing in Berlin their engines trailed black smoked for a moment. Funny cabin window shape but safer than the Comet I's for sure.

A nice video of one of the later Caravelle operational flights to Libreville, in 1999.

https://youtu.be/TT3vioHx1g4

I plan to make 282 posts over the course of this thread

@ VirginFlyer

Thank you. A really interesting historical summary.

The best production quality film I’ve seen of Caravelles is in a Danish comedy from the 70’s. Olsens Banden film ‘Store Kup’ was filmed at CPH.

Here’s a snippet....
https://youtu.be/6OUqR7Xf3ps

factsonly wrote:

Perhaps it is interesting to add the operators of the Caravelle over the years:

Civil operators:
- Air Algérie
- Aerolíneas Argentinas (1962–1973)
- Austrian Airlines
- Belgian International Air Services
- SABENA
- Sobelair
- Cruzeiro do Sul
- Panair do Brasil
- VARIG
- Air Burundi
- Air Cambodge
- Air Centrafrique
- Lan Chile
- Air Afrique
- Aerotal Colombia
- Aerocesar Colombia
- Air Congo
- Waltair (DR Congo)
- Sterling Airways
- SAETA
- SAN Ecuador
- Egyptair (Leased from Sterling)
- Finnair
- Kar-Air
- Aerotour
- Air Charter International
- Air France
- Air Inter
- Air Provence
- Catair
- Corse Air
- Euralair
- Europe Aero Service
- Minerve
- Trans-Union
- Union des Transports Aeriens
- Air Gabon
- Gabon Express
- Aero Lloyd (1980)[11]
- LTU
- Special Air Transport (SAT)
- Indian Airlines
- Pushpaka
- Aerolinee Itavia
- Alitalia
- Altair
- Società Aerea Mediterranea
- Alia
- Royal Air Lao
- Air Liban
- Middle East Airlines
- Kingdom of Libya Airlines
- Luxair
- Air Mali
- Royal Air Maroc
- Air Martinique
- Air Caledonie International
- Transavia
- Filipinas Orient Airways
- Sterling Philippines Airways
- Transasian Airways
- TAP Air Portugal
- Aviaco
- Iberia Airlines
- TAE
- Transeuropa
- SAS
- Transwede
- Balair
- CTA
- SATA
- Swissair
- Air City
- Syrian Arab Airlines
- China Airlines
- Far Eastern Air Transport
- Thai Airways International
- Tunisair
- Istanbul Airlines
- Midwest Air Charter/Airborne Express
- United Airlines
- Avensa
- Air Vietnam
- Air Yugoslavia
- Inex Adria Aviopromet
- JAT Yugoslav Airlines
- Affro Cargo
- Air Zaire

Military and government operators:
- Algerian Air Force
- Argentine Air Force
- Central African Empire/Republic Government
- Chad Government
- French Air Force
- Gabon Government
- Mauritanian Government
- Mexican Air Force
- Rwanda Government
- Senegal Government
- Swedish Air Force
- Yugoslav Air Force

Source: Wikipedia........

Greetings everyone,

I remember flying Transeuropa to Palma - Majorca from the UK, many years ago. Another operator of the Caravelle for the list is Hispania who were based in Palma.

Keep safe,
IntaJET

If I remember correctly, early versions used a braking parachute after landing

Max Q wrote:

If I remember correctly, early versions used a braking parachute after landing

Max Q, that is very correct. Not exactly sure the model/years, but remember viewing pics showing deployment upon landing.

Everyone, take care, be safe.
IntaJET

We have a Caravelle at CMH as the fire fighter training plane. It is ex-United, ex-Airborne Express.

Good morning. My travels in the mid-1960's took me to the Middle East. I flew in a Middle East Airlines Caravelle and also
Royal Jordanian (I think that was their name) - 1966 to be exact. I think the Jordanian had the fan-jet engines. My records are
not nearby.
The late Airways Magazine editor John Wegg was an expert on the Caravelle. Always glad to have flown this relatively rare airliner.

skydiamond wrote:

The best production quality film I’ve seen of Caravelles is in a Danish comedy from the 70’s. Olsens Banden film ‘Store Kup’ was filmed at CPH.

Here’s a snippet....
https://youtu.be/6OUqR7Xf3ps

Wow, what a great clip, not just of the Caravelles but all the other fantastic 70's aircraft and airlines!

intaJET wrote:

Max Q wrote:

If I remember correctly, early versions used a braking parachute after landing

Max Q, that is very correct. Not exactly sure the model/years, but remember viewing pics showing deployment upon landing.

Everyone, take care, be safe.
IntaJET

Up to the Caravelle VIN were drag chute, the VIR was the first with reversers... It is in fact the major difference between the VIN and VIR: N for Normal and R for Reverser(or Retropropulsion in French sources)

Everything after the VI series had reversers.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Everyone,

I just wanted to acknowledge and THANK "VirginFlyer" (I should have done this earlier) for such a detailed start to a forum, no small effort, and highly appreciated. Also, all other respondents. Some of us who have been flying for years (more than we may care to remember), will remember fondly the lack of security checks and ease and excitement of flying (sadly gone).

Take care, safe travels.
IntaJET

When I was a child, I remember watching planes to take off at HEL while waiting my second filight ever, about 1977. Most were DC9, like the flight I was waiting to board, but time to time I saw different looking "DC9", with darker enginens and a little bit different tail to take off. Later I recognized plane to be Finnair's Super Caravelle. In childs eye, DC9 went up like rocket, but Caravelle was smoky and shallower climber. Is there real difference in take off performance between Super Caravelle and DC9? I flew in DC9-10 but I think I saw all types of Finnair DC9 to take off with similar rocet like attitude.

What a beautiful little regional jet. Shh just yanking chains! In all actuality, what a beautiful

SHORT-HAUL jetliner

• Just because an aircraft seats less than 100 seats does NOT make it an “RJ” and
• Just because an aircraft is not built by Boeing or Airbus likewise or sit 6 abreast does NOT make it a “regional jet.”
Similarly,
• Just because an aircraft has jet engines (be it turbofan or turbojet) does NOT make it a short-haul jetliner.

Caravelle - A short haul jetliner or a jetliner used upon short - haul routes

A220 - NOT a “regional jet” and not a “jetliner,” but is a short - medium range turbofan powered airliner.
BAE 146 - configured 6 abreast a “regional airliner,” configured 5 abreast a “short - haul jet airliner” often used upon specialized routes

So just clarifying CARAVELLE is not a “regional jet.” A JETLINER used upon short - haul route yes, but calling it a regional jet is like calling Concorde a subsonic jet instead of an SST.

Thanks VirginFlyer. Glad to see that one of my favorite types is not yet forgotten!
I tried to get to fly on one in the 90s, had a few opportunities but in the end I never managed, still one of the things I regret most.

Some minor feedback on your story:
- Indeed strange that airlines still took delivery of Avon engined Caravelles as late as 1970. Probably the JT8D ones were more expensive or it was inefficient for an airline like Air France to operate both subtypes so they took the extra fuel burn and noise for granted at the time.
- I always thought the amount of JT8D engined Caravelles was more like 100-120, suprised to see it's only 60. Probably because these were the only ones I still saw flying in Amsterdam and Orly around 1990 I thought there were more.
- Thankfully the crash of 3D-KIK wasn't the end of Caravelle flying. Waltair of Congo continued with 9Q-CPI (169) til july 2005, so the type flew just a bit more than 50 years. Fun fact, this aircraft was the prototype 10B3.

Caravelle and Concorde got the aesthetics of jet travel right,

and there is no going back to the aesthetics of unrefined slow looking lines if you wish to compete and prosper in air travel at a significant level.

Air travel sales speed.
Speed comes at a price.
There are those who can afford air travel in “real jets” and then there is the illusion of the rest of us.
Illusions are important be it real or simply that.

We even learned this even back in the days of the DC3.

Caravelle was Varig's first jet, when the PP-VJC arrived in Brazil in September 1959, inaurating the longest Caravelle flight, from Buenos Aires to New York via Porto Alegre, São Paulo Congonhas, Rio de Janeiro Galeão, Belém, Port of Spain, Nassau and finally Idlewild.

Cruzeiro do Sul flew seven VI-R in 1962/1963, four ordered from Sud Aviation and three leased from Panair do Brasil after the bankcrupty. The subsidiary LASA flew one VI-N to aerophotogrammetry services in Amazon, in UA basic colors. I suppose this birds is CMH as describe by Pudelhunde.

Panair got four VI-R between 1962 and 1965, one written-off after a almost mid-collision near Recife and three went to Cruzeiro do Sul. Panair's Caravelle was the first model to fly only in domestic routes in Brazil.

Vasp was to become the fourth Caravelle operator in Brazil, they ordered six models, but they didn´t get funding for them. Some of them eventually went to Finnair. It would be its first jet.

Summary:
1959-1963 - Varig
PP-VJC - First brazilian jet - to Air Vietnam in 1964;
PP-VJD - Crashed after landing @ BSB, 1961, no fatal injuries;
PP-VJI - ex-Air Algerie, replaced PP-VJD - to Avensa Venezuela in 1964;
All of them were I and in 1961 they were changed to III.

1962-1965 - Panair do Brasil
PP-PDU - Written-off after a almost mid-collision over Recife, 1962;
PP-PDV - to Cruzeiro do Sul;
PP-PDX - to Cruzeiro do Sul;
PP-PDZ - to Cruzeiro do Sul;
All of them were VI-R.

1962-1975 - Cruzeiro do Sul
PP-CJA
PP-CJB
PP-CJC
PP-CJD
PP-PDV - written off after landing in Manaus Ponta Pelada Airport, DEC1973, no fatalities;
PP-PDX - crashed in São Luis Airport (SLZ), SEP1973, no survivors;
PP-PDZ
All VI-R.

1971-1973 - LASA
PP-DUW - First UA's Caravelle, ex-N1001U. VI-R.

Why did UAL only operate the Caravelle for such a short period of time? Did it burn too much fuel or were they maintenance nightmares?

My brother and I were scheduled to fly a UA bird from ATL to CLE in 1969 but at the gate was a brand new 737-200. I am suprised that no other outfit picked them up in the States like a regional carrier. Interesting that DHL operated them - Federal Express went with the Falcon 20's.

UAL operated the Caravelle with 3 pilots. were there any European operators that used 3 crew as well?

First jet I ever saw, in the winter of 1959/60 if my memory serves. There was a Caravelle in United markings at the South Bend, Indiana airport (KSBN) and my dad drove me over to see it. What a beauty. There's one at Pima Air & Space museum in kind of shabby shape. Needs paint pretty badly.

I flew Royal Air Maroc Caravelles six times in the late sixties between London Gatwick / Tangiers. After all this time, I still have a memory of a possible braking device which rose up on two legs from the wing surface. This comprised an approx.2 metre long metal plate wth round holes in it. Is my memory correct some fifty years later? Thank you.

skydiamond wrote:

The best production quality film I’ve seen of Caravelles is in a Danish comedy from the 70’s. Olsens Banden film ‘Store Kup’ was filmed at CPH.

Here’s a snippet....
https://youtu.be/6OUqR7Xf3ps

Thank you for that link. Wonderful footage. Many great classics there. No clue what the movie was about, though, but that's secondary to the airplanes.

And now some controversy.

I saw a documentary a long time ago that said that Douglas had signed a deal with Sud to build Caravelles in the US, got the plans as a result, then reneged on the deal and copied the plans to make the DC-9.

Here is a video showing the special features of the Caravelle III from a pilot's perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1lluZJIJsA

I flew on Italian charter operator SAMIT from Malpensa to Luton in 1974-so they operated at least one Caravelle. I think my last Caravelle flight was in 1982 or 1983, operated by SAN ( Ecuador) on a Quito to Guayaquil run.

Great post, thank you! I have always been fascinated by those triangular windows. Was it simply an interesting design, or they really market the concept of maximum downward visibility that you mention?

20207 wrote:

I still have a memory of a possible braking device which rose up on two legs from the wing surface. This comprised an approx.2 metre long metal plate wth round holes in it. Is my memory correct some fifty years later? Thank you.

Your memory is 100% correct. I was also puzzled by those round holes in the spoilers. 45 years since my first flight on a Caravelle, and I still have no clue what was the purpose of those holes. Maybe someone can help us here?

Don't know whether those perforated spoilers were on all Caravelles. I saw them on -10B.

skydiamond wrote:

The best production quality film I’ve seen of Caravelles is in a Danish comedy from the 70’s. Olsens Banden film ‘Store Kup’ was filmed at CPH.

Here’s a snippet....
https://youtu.be/6OUqR7Xf3ps

smithbs wrote:

Thank

you for that link. Wonderful footage. Many great classics there. No clue what the movie was about, though, but that's secondary to the airplanes.

Great to meet the Egon Olsen Gang here! Perhaps that had been the greatest moovie sequel ever dwarfing any Hollywood production.

Aesma wrote:

And now some controversy.

I saw a documentary a long time ago that said that Douglas had signed a deal with Sud to build Caravelles in the US, got the plans as a result, then reneged on the deal and copied the plans to make the DC-9.

I've heard that said several times. It was probably the case where some details and techniques were learned, but the DC-9 certainly isn't a copy of the Caravelle. I would guess that Douglas became aware of some issues and techniques from Sud Aviation, allowing them to design around them earlier and more efficiently and to quickly bypass some trouble areas. It probably also saved Douglas valuable time on the front end by confirming the correctness of a rear-engine clean-wing regional jet. I think the following compares the two aircraft:

- DC-9 wing is newer. The Caravelle wing is definitely a 1950s design (sweep profile and wing fences), whereas DC-9 is a newer design. Wing design moved fast in this era and a few years could see a lot of changes, and these two are good examples.

- DC-9 tail plane is also newer. If I was to take a wager, I bet Douglas learned about tail plane issues (sizing, forces, stall behavior, etc) from Sud Aviation and Douglas came up with the top-mounted "flying" design as a result of this lesson. The Douglas tail plane seems unique and is definitely not a Caravelle design, and also seems distinct from the more similar VC-10, Il-62 or Trident either. If anything it looks closest to a 727 tailplane, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the DC-9 and 727 tailplanes were the only ones of its generation that were all-moving.

- DC-9 fuselage is a double bubble and is likely a 147 inch DC-8 fuselage shrunk down to 132 inches. This would probably be the best path for Douglas since their DC-8 design could bootstrap the DC-9 design (structure, stress, loads, etc). From what I can find, I think the Caravelle fuselage was 115 inches and a pure circle.

- Maybe Sud Aviation told Douglas the best way to design a cockpit was to get someone else's? I'm sure Douglas engineers thought, "Yeah, we know where we can get a cockpit."

- Maybe Sud Aviation helped drive the DC-9's two-man cockpit? It seems odd that Boeing's convincing of a two-man cockpit for 767 was such an issue in the late 1970s when the DC-9 and Caravelle had been doing it for nigh on two decades previously.

- I also guess that Douglas learned a bit from Sud Aviation about rear-mounted engines, their issues, and the structure to support them, but Douglas took the lessons and made their own design of it.

And of course, aesthetics mean the most. DC-9 is, well, utilitarian in appearance (is that putting it nicely enough?). Caravelle was beautiful.

Aesma wrote:

And now some controversy.

I saw a documentary a long time ago that said that Douglas had signed a deal with Sud to build Caravelles in the US, got the plans as a result, then reneged on the deal and copied the plans to make the DC-9.

I've heard this too although I'm not sure if they actually *copied* the plans- but it's no coincidence that the DC-9 ended up with the same configuration l.

Does anyone know for sure what went on?


Jonas

Was the caravelle the firs French airplane with throttles/thrustlevers that we’re standard with the rest of the world?

Throttles on French planes were reversed until a point in time the caravelle was born. Forward was idle and pulling them back was full power. Trying to figure the first French production plane built in Had normal throttles..Normal =. Forward was full power.

Cheers?

Thanks for all the positive comments everyone, it is great to see there are plenty of people who appreciate this fantastic aircraft!

prebennorholm wrote:

20207 wrote:

I still have a memory of a possible braking device which rose up on two legs from the wing surface. This comprised an approx.2 metre long metal plate wth round holes in it. Is my memory correct some fifty years later? Thank you.

Your memory is 100% correct. I was also puzzled by those round holes in the spoilers. 45 years since my first flight on a Caravelle, and I still have no clue what was the purpose of those holes. Maybe someone can help us here?

Don't know whether those perforated spoilers were on all Caravelles. I saw them on -10B.

My understanding from what I have read is the spoilers were introduced on the Series VI-R, and then would have been standard for the Series 10B3, 10R, 11R, 12. I don't know if they were present on later-build IIIs or VI-Ns.

MEA-707 wrote:

Thankfully the crash of 3D-KIK wasn't the end of Caravelle flying. Waltair of Congo continued with 9Q-CPI (169) til july 2005, so the type flew just a bit more than 50 years. Fun fact, this aircraft was the prototype 10B3.

I've seen conflicting information on this. At the time of 3D-KIK's accident I recall it being referred to as the final Caravelle in service, and I've seen a number of references to this online. But Airlinerlist does show msn 169 9Q-CPI as:

repo s11.09.03 wfu but conf in svc 11.03 by owner, wfu 07.05 (presum made final ever Caravelle flight?) repo 10.05 "can be flown out if buyer is found", scrapped from ca 07.2007

RZJets also agrees with this.

Does anyone have some more firm information on this? The more I look the more this seems to be correct, so it would be good to resolve this, and if 9Q-CPI was the last one, I'll have to see if the moderators have the ability to update the opening post so it doesn't perpetuate an incorrect story. I do hope this turns out to be true - it would be great to think the type flew for more than half a century. I wish I had looked more deeply into this before posting!

V/F

Nothing says Caravelle more than Sterling Airways. The color scheme had to have been specifically designed for the Caravelle. Such fond memories!

smithbs : I agree that the DC-9 doesn't look like a copy at all, but if they indeed got the Caravelle plans, they could have learned many things.

About the "spoilers with holes", I've seen those on fighter jets and sailplanes, so I did some digging. It seems they're airbrakes (aérofreins) and not spoilers : https://www.lavionnaire.fr/CelluleFreinsSpoilers.php (in French).

They are specifically designed to not affect lift too much. They are quite small on the extrados, and the drag surface is a distance away from the wing to not affect the boundary layer. They're bigger on the intrados. As for the holes, they create more drag.

Pictures :

Anyone have access to the Discovery Wings episode featuring the Caravelle? Long ago I had it on VHS but it’s since lost.

Aesma wrote:

smithbs : I agree that the DC-9 doesn't look like a copy at all, but if they indeed got the Caravelle plans, they could have learned many things.

About the "spoilers with holes", I've seen those on fighter jets and sailplanes, so I did some digging. It seems they're airbrakes (aérofreins) and not spoilers : https://www.lavionnaire.fr/CelluleFreinsSpoilers.php (in French).

They are specifically designed to not affect lift too much. They are quite small on the extrados, and the drag surface is a distance away from the wing to not affect the boundary layer. They're bigger on the intrados. As for the holes, they create more drag.

Pictures :

Thank you for sharing this - very interesting! It looks like these were present on earlier types too - the photo you have there is a Series III, and there a couple of photos showing them on VI-Ns as well:



V/F

Thank you, VirginFlyer for your very interesting history. I love this old airplane, one of the most beautiful airliners. I have very fuzzy memories of flying aboard one or two of these as a very young child - I believe an Air France and an Alitalia example. Several years ago, when I was visiting Columbus, Ohio, the very kind airport fire department allowed me to board their example and take as many pictures as I wanted. This was a treat beyond words. My shots on Flickr are here:
https://flic.kr/p/ecJvSK.

For the model builders out there, Lindbergh has reissued their classic kit. It comes with a complete interior, working control surfaces (flaps, ailerons, elevators, and rudder), and retractable landing gear. I hear it is a beast to build, but certainly a Caravelle nerd's delight

The Caravelle is such a beautiful aeroplane!

As promised, here is the first of 282 daily posts detailing the history of each Caravelle and showing each photo of that airframe currently in the Airliners.net database. By my count this will take us through to mid-March 2021, so settle back and enjoy the journey.

MSN 01 - Caravelle Prototype
First flight: 27 May 1955

Operator: Sud Aviation
Registration: F-WHHH
Re-registered: F-BHHH (23 May 1956)

MSN 01 was the first Caravelle prototype. In 1957 it was painted in SAS colours, and at some stage it also carried Air France colours:


Photographs from this excellent postcard website, which I really recommend you visit for more unique Caravelle images: http://famgus.se/Postcards/Aviation/Air ... -Test.html

It was later returned to Sud Aviation colours, and carried out various tests including of autoland systems:


Final flight: May 1966

MSN 01 was subsequently stored at Orly, where it was displayed in an Aeroports de Paris colour scheme, and later in Air Inter colours. RZJets reports it also carried Air France colours during this time, but I haven't found any photographs of this.



Sadly MSN 01 was broken up in October 1986. I think everyone would agree that it is a real shame that the first Caravelle was not able to be saved.

V/F

Still, in my view, the most beautiful and elegant airliner ever made.

BravoOne wrote:

UAL operated the Caravelle with 3 pilots. were there any European operators that used 3 crew as well?

United operated the 737 with 3 pilots as well Frontier was the first to do it with 2 pilots for which UA ALPA Never forgave them and got revenge for in later years.

There is a Caravelle parked at Arlanda airport if anybody is in Sweden and would like to see one for real.

http://sudaviation.com/?p=1043

Jerry

smithbs wrote:

Aesma wrote:

And now some controversy.

I saw a documentary a long time ago that said that Douglas had signed a deal with Sud to build Caravelles in the US, got the plans as a result, then reneged on the deal and copied the plans to make the DC-9.

I've heard that said several times. It was probably the case where some details and techniques were learned, but the DC-9 certainly isn't a copy of the Caravelle. I would guess that Douglas became aware of some issues and techniques from Sud Aviation, allowing them to design around them earlier and more efficiently and to quickly bypass some trouble areas. It probably also saved Douglas valuable time on the front end by confirming the correctness of a rear-engine clean-wing regional jet. I think the following compares the two aircraft:

- DC-9 wing is newer. The Caravelle wing is definitely a 1950s design (sweep profile and wing fences), whereas DC-9 is a newer design. Wing design moved fast in this era and a few years could see a lot of changes, and these two are good examples.

- DC-9 tail plane is also newer. If I was to take a wager, I bet Douglas learned about tail plane issues (sizing, forces, stall behavior, etc) from Sud Aviation and Douglas came up with the top-mounted "flying" design as a result of this lesson. The Douglas tail plane seems unique and is definitely not a Caravelle design, and also seems distinct from the more similar VC-10, Il-62 or Trident either. If anything it looks closest to a 727 tailplane, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the DC-9 and 727 tailplanes were the only ones of its generation that were all-moving.

- DC-9 fuselage is a double bubble and is likely a 147 inch DC-8 fuselage shrunk down to 132 inches. This would probably be the best path for Douglas since their DC-8 design could bootstrap the DC-9 design (structure, stress, loads, etc). From what I can find, I think the Caravelle fuselage was 115 inches and a pure circle.

- Maybe Sud Aviation told Douglas the best way to design a cockpit was to get someone else's? I'm sure Douglas engineers thought, "Yeah, we know where we can get a cockpit."

- Maybe Sud Aviation helped drive the DC-9's two-man cockpit? It seems odd that Boeing's convincing of a two-man cockpit for 767 was such an issue in the late 1970s when the DC-9 and Caravelle had been doing it for nigh on two decades previously.

- I also guess that Douglas learned a bit from Sud Aviation about rear-mounted engines, their issues, and the structure to support them, but Douglas took the lessons and made their own design of it.

And of course, aesthetics mean the most. DC-9 is, well, utilitarian in appearance (is that putting it nicely enough?). Caravelle was beautiful.

Having worked on both ghe Caravelle and the DC9-10 and 15F there is very little that resembles one plane and the other. except the JT8D-7's

VirginFlyer wrote:

I've seen conflicting information on this. At the time of 3D-KIK's accident I recall it being referred to as the final Caravelle in service, and I've seen a number of references to this online. But Airlinerlist does show msn 169 9Q-CPI as:

repo s11.09.03 wfu but conf in svc 11.03 by owner, wfu 07.05 (presum made final ever Caravelle flight?) repo 10.05 "can be flown out if buyer is found", scrapped from ca 07.2007

RZJets also agrees with this.

Does anyone have some more firm information on this? The more I look the more this seems to be correct, so it would be good to resolve this, and if 9Q-CPI was the last one, I'll have to see if the moderators have the ability to update the opening post so it doesn't perpetuate an incorrect story. I do hope this turns out to be true - it would be great to think the type flew for more than half a century. I wish I had looked more deeply into this before posting!

V/F

It's confirmed Waltair flew their Caravelle 9Q-CPI after september 2004 and permanently parked it in july 2005. Pity an exact date of its and the Caravelles last flight has never been confirmed. This information is from John Wegg's excellent Caravelle book, the definitive source of information. I would recommend you to get hold on one as you like the Caravelle so much. By the way I make the Airlinerlist sheet and RZJets used my information and I got this one from Wegg, but I remember the owner of Waltair was also active in a yahoo group, a Belgian who liked his Caravelles and gave some answers, but didn't want too nosy people inside his operation, no doubt questionable during the Congo civil war.

MEA-707 wrote:

VirginFlyer wrote:

I've seen conflicting information on this. At the time of 3D-KIK's accident I recall it being referred to as the final Caravelle in service, and I've seen a number of references to this online. But Airlinerlist does show msn 169 9Q-CPI as:

repo s11.09.03 wfu but conf in svc 11.03 by owner, wfu 07.05 (presum made final ever Caravelle flight?) repo 10.05 "can be flown out if buyer is found", scrapped from ca 07.2007

RZJets also agrees with this.

Does anyone have some more firm information on this? The more I look the more this seems to be correct, so it would be good to resolve this, and if 9Q-CPI was the last one, I'll have to see if the moderators have the ability to update the opening post so it doesn't perpetuate an incorrect story. I do hope this turns out to be true - it would be great to think the type flew for more than half a century. I wish I had looked more deeply into this before posting!

V/F

It's confirmed Waltair flew their Caravelle 9Q-CPI after september 2004 and permanently parked it in july 2005. Pity an exact date of its and the Caravelles last flight has never been confirmed. This information is from John Wegg's excellent Caravelle book, the definitive source of information. I would recommend you to get hold on one as you like the Caravelle so much. By the way I make the Airlinerlist sheet and RZJets used my information and I got this one from Wegg, but I remember the owner of Waltair was also active in a yahoo group, a Belgian who liked his Caravelles and gave some answers, but didn't want too nosy people inside his operation, no doubt questionable during the Congo civil war.

Well given the degree of trust I put into the sourcing of Airlinerlist's information, that is sufficient for me. I very much appreciate the hard work that goes into those! I'll get in touch with the moderators about inserting some details into the opening post, along the lines of:

By the 1990s the Caravelle had mostly exited service, but at least two aircraft survived in operation in Africa until the early 2000s, ensuring the Caravelle reached 50 years of flight:

• 3D-KIK, a Series 11R, MSN 251 which was written off on 27 August 2004 when it landed on the 1000m x 23m strip at Gisenyi, Rwanda, 2km east of the 2000m x 45m runway at Goma, Democratic Republic of the Congo where it was supposed to land. The aircraft ran off the strip, broke up and burnt out.
• 9Q-CPI, a Series 10B3, MSN 169, which flew with Waltair in the Democratic Republic of the Congo until July 2005 (the exact date of the final flight is not known). Seen here with previous operator Aero Jet:

V/F

Great thread, thank you!
Lots of memories from my early travels: My first jet flight took place in 1960 (sic) on board Finnair's newly acquired Caravelle with my parents.. the last Caravalle flight was in 1984 with my wife (flight to Innsbruck with Sterling).
Smooth rides and landings, big wings, no slats, interesting speed brakes.
AY had 10 Super Caravelles 10B in use between 1964-1983. Did almost half of that type end up with AY? According to your list, only 22 were built. I did not know that Avon powered Caravelles were built that long in spite of the early introduction of P&W.
Between 1960-1963 AY had 4 Caravelle IIIs, often referred to as "steam Caravelles"
factsonly: I can't remember that KAR-AIR the small Finnish airline ever operated Caravelles (although Isaw they were listed in Wiki), at least not with their livery.

Question for strfyr51 - as a United employee do you recall why UA retired them so early? Were they hard to maintain?