Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:28 pm

Today's scanned photo of an AZ DC10-30 at LHR in 1975 got me looking a bit further into the type's history at Alitalia.

Of the 8 operated in total, 6 were acquired in 1973-1975, with the last two in 1982. They were withdrawn starting about 10 years later, with the last one gone by early 1986. AZ later operated 8 MD11's (I think just 3 in pax configuration and the rest cargo, or perhaps they were cargo conversions from original pax frames), but the MD11 would first appear at AZ in 1993.

Anyone know why the DC10 was relatively short lived at AZ? It wasn't uncommon for airlines operating the MD11 as a passenger plane to withdraw them early, but what was the story with the DC10 at AZ? The 14 A300s AZ operated starting in 1981 were not exactly a replacement for the DC10 in terms of range.

Was the DC10 too much plane for AZ, not enough or was the 747-200 fleet, which was fairly large for an airline of AZ's size the reason for the DC10's somewhat short service at AZ?
 
Airdolomiti
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:05 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:11 pm

I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.
 
MedFlyerArg85
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:32 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Today's scanned photo of an AZ DC10-30 at LHR in 1975 got me looking a bit further into the type's history at Alitalia.

Of the 8 operated in total, 6 were acquired in 1973-1975, with the last two in 1982. They were withdrawn starting about 10 years later, with the last one gone by early 1986. AZ later operated 8 MD11's (I think just 3 in pax configuration and the rest cargo, or perhaps they were cargo conversions from original pax frames), but the MD11 would first appear at AZ in 1993.


AZ was operating the MD11 at least in 1992. I flew Buenos Aires-Ezeiza to Rome-Fiumicino on April 1st, 1992.
Flown: B717 - B722 - B732 - B737 - B738 - B742 - B744 - B762 - B789 - MD82 - MD83 - MD11 - A306 - A320 - A321 - A319 - A330 - J32 - SF340 - ATR72-600
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:36 pm

Airdolomiti wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.


Thank you. I thought that might the reason. I flew on one of the AZ all pax MD-11s in 1994, from LAX to FCO.
 
xtra1
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:47 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:41 pm

When I was young, I remember taking an AZ DC-10, from Hong Kong to Tokyo and back. First Class was empty except for me and my mother. While Economy was only a quarter full, with Japanese tourists. We had a very 'demonstrative' and enthusiastic purser! While taxing and just before take-off (Runway 31) , I remember a rather glamorous woman walking into the cockpit. (Captain's wife or mistress?). The cockpit door remained open, throughout take-off with lots of cigarette-smoke streaming out! Those were the days !
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 924
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:59 pm

Assuming that it's a cabin outflow valve which I'm seeing just forward of the wing in that scanned pic, I must say that is quite a substantial nicotine stain flowing out behind it! (cough, cough).
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:26 pm

Alitalia and Continental Airlines had a marketing partnership in the 1990s where a CO DC10-30 was painted on one side in CO livery and on the other, in AZ livery. I don't recall if that aircraft was used exclusively on EWR-FCO or EWR-MXP flights, but I think the cabin interior was all standard CO. Not sure if an AZ crew staffed these flights or not during that time.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4616
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:13 pm

Airdolomiti wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.


Are we sure that is the case? Towards the late 70s and early 80s the 747 had become a more attractive plane for many airlines, with better CASM, range and more capacity than the DC-10 and in the case of AZ, it offered them the Combi version, which they used extensively. By that time, DC-10 sales had already peaked and would become almost non existent in the 80s, save for the KC-10 USAF project.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6993
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Was the DC10 too much plane for AZ, not enough or was the 747-200 fleet, which was fairly large for an airline of AZ's size the reason for the DC10's somewhat short service at AZ?


Not too much plane but rather no longer the right one. At the moment I can't remember in which older thread I posted informations regarding this, thus I'm not sure whether I recall it correctly or not. AZ DC-10 fleet should have grown to 12 or 13, including the first -30F manufactired and a couple of -30CFs. However, following the dark 1979 year for the DC-10, the recently confirmed orders were cancelled. Where I'm not 100% sure is whether they choose to move away due to bad press surrounding it or because the manufacturer, following the AA191 crash, decided to cancel the DC-10 Super 60s program while AZ needed to add larger aircraft.
 
Airdolomiti
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:05 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:38 pm

dcajet wrote:
Airdolomiti wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.


Are we sure that is the case? Towards the late 70s and early 80s the 747 had become a more attractive plane for many airlines, with better CASM, range and more capacity than the DC-10 and in the case of AZ, it offered them the Combi version, which they used extensively. By that time, DC-10 sales had already peaked and would become almost non existent in the 80s, save for the KC-10 USAF project.


I’m sure that was actually the main rationale for going back to 747s.

Like I said, the perceived safety issues were allegedly only *part* of the reason (if at all, I might add).

Before the decision to retire the fleet, there were plans to go all DC-10 for long-haul routes, replacing the 5 original 747s with another 6 DC-10s.
 
DouglasDC10
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 3:27 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:09 pm

dcajet wrote:
Airdolomiti wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.


Are we sure that is the case? Towards the late 70s and early 80s the 747 had become a more attractive plane for many airlines, with better CASM, range and more capacity than the DC-10 and in the case of AZ, it offered them the Combi version, which they used extensively. By that time, DC-10 sales had already peaked and would become almost non existent in the 80s, save for the KC-10 USAF project.


While the 747 has made some advances in the late 70s and early 80s, it was also the same time when many airlines realized that it was too much of a plane for them. Few US carriers in the early years of de-regulation topped up their fleets with new orders, some got rid of their early -100s (Delta, American) and sales were mostly boosted by emerging Asian carriers and European ones where range was important. At the same time in Europe, SAS and TAP retired their 747s in favour of DC-10s and L-1011s while I wonder if Swissair's orphan fleet would have made sense without the cooperation with KL/UT/SN. It would not have surprised me if Alitalia would have considered a similar step.

DC-10 sales in the late 70s/early 80s have been weak indeed, but this is also attributable to the more economical A300s and B767-200s on shorter routes and the unwilllingness from McDonnell - Douglas to launch the DC-10-60 and DC-10 Twin programs which finally (though late) became the MD-11.
 
SierraAir
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:00 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:12 pm

The DC-10s were never practical as combis versus the 747 because of the location of the main-deck cargo door. The 747 had it behind the wing, allowing for normal passenger ops while also loading cargo. The DC-10s main-deck door was between L1 and L2 so cargo loading would have to be done before or after passengers using jetbridges.

Alitalia had to have known this too, which is why their MD-11 Combis were the only MD-11s to feature a main-deck cargo door special-designed to go aft of the wings.

 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:12 am

Airdolomiti wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Airdolomiti wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the decision to remove them from the fleet was partly a reaction to the several issues and fatal crashes suffered by the DC-10 elsewhere in the world, so the new batch of 747s with CF6s ordered around 1979 effectively replaced both the DC-10s and the five original PW-equipped 747s.

Incidentally, the MD-11s operated years later included three full-pax aircraft and five combi models - the only MD-11 combis ever built. They were later converted to cargo aircraft.


Are we sure that is the case? Towards the late 70s and early 80s the 747 had become a more attractive plane for many airlines, with better CASM, range and more capacity than the DC-10 and in the case of AZ, it offered them the Combi version, which they used extensively. By that time, DC-10 sales had already peaked and would become almost non existent in the 80s, save for the KC-10 USAF project.


I’m sure that was actually the main rationale for going back to 747s.

Like I said, the perceived safety issues were allegedly only *part* of the reason (if at all, I might add).

Before the decision to retire the fleet, there were plans to go all DC-10 for long-haul routes, replacing the 5 original 747s with another 6 DC-10s.


Interesting. Thank you for noting this. I guess the DC10-30 would have been suitable for all of AZ's long haul markets at the time.
 
steman
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:02 am

The DC10s weren´t the only models Alitalia got rid of in a short time. The 727s had the same fate. 18 Series -243Adv were introduced from 1976 onward only to be retired in the early 80s when the MD-80s entered service. At the same time that they were getting rid of the DC10s and 727s they were introducing used A300Bs from Easter Airlines, not even of the same subtype they got new from Airbus and I recall the ex EA machines being hangar queens and having different configurations even among them.
I don´t know the reasoning behind this. Maybe it´s just bad management.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:14 am

IIRC the ex EA A300's were all economy used primarily on the Rome-Milan route.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6993
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:18 am

steman wrote:
At the same time that they were getting rid of the DC10s and 727s they were introducing used A300Bs from Easter Airlines, not even of the same subtype they got new from Airbus and I recall the ex EA machines being hangar queens and having different configurations even among them.


The used A300s arrived only in 1988 and 1989, that is later than the disposal of trijets, and two of them were indeed B2s instead of B4s.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Alitalia
 
steman
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:34 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
steman wrote:
At the same time that they were getting rid of the DC10s and 727s they were introducing used A300Bs from Easter Airlines, not even of the same subtype they got new from Airbus and I recall the ex EA machines being hangar queens and having different configurations even among them.


The used A300s arrived only in 1988 and 1989, that is later than the disposal of trijets, and two of them were indeed B2s instead of B4s.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Alitalia


You´re right, I just checked on the very good azfleet.info website. EA A300s, 6 of them, arrived in the 1988/1989 timeframe. The original 8 B4-203 bought directly from Airbus arrived starting in 1980. As for the 727, some had been in service just 2 or 3 years before being retired. They had all been bought new from Boeing and already when they were quite obsolete. Alitalia had actually optioned 20 Boeing 757 but this never turned into an actual order.
The history of Alitalia Fleet development is full of such weird/stupid decisions. The DC10s could have served well into the late 90s, just like they did at many other European Flag carriers.
AZ only had 5 or so 747 Combi, at one point their long haul fleet consisted only of Boeing 747-200 serving many destinations with multiple stops along the way. At the same time rival airlines like LH, AF, BA, IB, KL etc where also using DC10s, L1011s or 747 Combis.
I don´t know the real reason for the premature withdraw of the DC10s but I also recall it was at least in part linked to the bad reputation the model gained after the series of accidents in the late 70s. Other airlines reacted more pragmatically and cool headed and decided that the tragedies weren´t caused by inherent design deficiencies and went on using DC10s profitably for many more years.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6993
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:56 am

steman wrote:
I don´t know the real reason for the premature withdraw of the DC10s but I also recall it was at least in part linked to the bad reputation the model gained after the series of accidents in the late 70s. Other airlines reacted more pragmatically and cool headed and decided that the tragedies weren´t caused by inherent design deficiencies and went on using DC10s profitably for many more years.


AZ was state-owned and considered as badly managed, with mounting debt. If the government placed the wrong persons at the helm of such business, it's no wonder it went west. Regarding the DC-10, it had one major flaw that became apparent with the American crash. However American was also responsible for not following the proper maintenance procedures, which ended badly. Most European airlines kept their confidence in the trijet for another decade or more.
 
69bug
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:11 pm

posted this in an earlier thread .. sorry for the thread drift as this is an MD-11 tale.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405891&p=20784613&hilit=alitalia+combi+69bug#p20784613

69bug wrote:
A bit off topic but still on the MD-11

I remember observing an Alitalia turnaround somewhere in Africa (think it was Addis but I could be wrong). It was a charter flight and on arrival the APU could not be started. Much faffing about while they looked for a solution.. no luck as all the GPUs (ground power unit) were not working. Also the last air-start unit (required for starting) was unserviceable for a few months).

Now the thing about the MD11 is that in some conditions it has a tendency to tail-tip. Understandably the crew were reluctant to let the passengers off as the lightened front end was not desirable. Much discussion took place between the crew, loadmaster and engineer. All this while engine # 3 was running.

What they ended up doing was this
1. With engine #3 running, they proceeded to offload the main deck, once completed, the passengers were then allowed to disembark.
2. Start eng # 1, shutdown eng #3, and offload the lower fwd and aft holds.
3. Start eng #2, shutdown #1.. commence fuelling.
4. start #1, shutdown #2, load lower fwd and aft hold.
5. Start #3, shutdown #1, board passengers and maindeck freight.

Took around three hours to make the turn.

I remember this because I was waiting for the main-deck loader so I could start loading on my flight.

bug
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:16 pm

steman wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
steman wrote:
At the same time that they were getting rid of the DC10s and 727s they were introducing used A300Bs from Easter Airlines, not even of the same subtype they got new from Airbus and I recall the ex EA machines being hangar queens and having different configurations even among them.


The used A300s arrived only in 1988 and 1989, that is later than the disposal of trijets, and two of them were indeed B2s instead of B4s.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Alitalia


You´re right, I just checked on the very good azfleet.info website. EA A300s, 6 of them, arrived in the 1988/1989 timeframe. The original 8 B4-203 bought directly from Airbus arrived starting in 1980. As for the 727, some had been in service just 2 or 3 years before being retired. They had all been bought new from Boeing and already when they were quite obsolete. Alitalia had actually optioned 20 Boeing 757 but this never turned into an actual order.
The history of Alitalia Fleet development is full of such weird/stupid decisions. The DC10s could have served well into the late 90s, just like they did at many other European Flag carriers.
AZ only had 5 or so 747 Combi, at one point their long haul fleet consisted only of Boeing 747-200 serving many destinations with multiple stops along the way. At the same time rival airlines like LH, AF, BA, IB, KL etc where also using DC10s, L1011s or 747 Combis.
I don´t know the real reason for the premature withdraw of the DC10s but I also recall it was at least in part linked to the bad reputation the model gained after the series of accidents in the late 70s. Other airlines reacted more pragmatically and cool headed and decided that the tragedies weren´t caused by inherent design deficiencies and went on using DC10s profitably for many more years.
 
Pendennis
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:38 pm

Not forgetting that they ordered five 747-443s, they were picked up by Virgin Atlantic. They get no prizes for fleet planning!
 
steman
Posts: 1629
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:48 pm

Pendennis wrote:
Not forgetting that they ordered five 747-443s, they were picked up by Virgin Atlantic. They get no prizes for fleet planning!


Yeah that was a weird one too. They were actually intended as part of the alliance with KLM, which already had a substantial Boeing 747-400 fleet. Then the alliance broke up and AZ changed the order to 6 B777-200ER, leasing 4 more shortly afterwards. These are all still in service. They replaced the 747-200s.
They also got unlucky with orders when they chose the Fokker70, getting only 6 of 15 machines when Fokker went bankrupt.

In other cases they have been enthusiastic users of some models, like the MD-80s. At one point they had the biggest MD-80 fleet outside of the US and third biggest in the world after AA and DL. In total they got 90, the last ones delivered in 1995 when they were already obsolete.
The DC9-32s have also had a very long career at AZ from 1967 to 1996 circa.

AZ is not known for being an innovator or for setting the standards, but it was launch customer, together with LH, of the Airbus A321 and among the very first airlines to introduce the Embraer E-Jets into regular pax service.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:50 pm

steman wrote:
Pendennis wrote:
Not forgetting that they ordered five 747-443s, they were picked up by Virgin Atlantic. They get no prizes for fleet planning!


Yeah that was a weird one too. They were actually intended as part of the alliance with KLM, which already had a substantial Boeing 747-400 fleet. Then the alliance broke up and AZ changed the order to 6 B777-200ER, leasing 4 more shortly afterwards. These are all still in service. They replaced the 747-200s.
They also got unlucky with orders when they chose the Fokker70, getting only 6 of 15 machines when Fokker went bankrupt.

In other cases they have been enthusiastic users of some models, like the MD-80s. At one point they had the biggest MD-80 fleet outside of the US and third biggest in the world after AA and DL. In total they got 90, the last ones delivered in 1995 when they were already obsolete.
The DC9-32s have also had a very long career at AZ from 1967 to 1996 circa.

AZ is not known for being an innovator or for setting the standards, but it was launch customer, together with LH, of the Airbus A321 and among the very first airlines to introduce the Embraer E-Jets into regular pax service.


In 1997, AZ had selected KLM to be its principal international partner, over AF and SR and it was planned to be a significant tie up. The deal, billed as a virtual merger, was dropped in 2000 by KLM after 18 months as KLM had big concerns over state aid to AZ and its path to privatization at the time. There were also significant disputes around the role of MXP as a hub. I believe each airline ended up paying the other penalties over the failed deal in the $100MM-$250MM range. KLM essentially viewed AZ as toxic.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9860
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:45 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
steman wrote:
Pendennis wrote:

In 1997, AZ had selected KLM to be its principal international partner, over AF and SR and it was planned to be a significant tie up. The deal, billed as a virtual merger, was dropped in 2000 by KLM after 18 months as KLM had big concerns over state aid to AZ and its path to privatization at the time. There were also significant disputes around the role of MXP as a hub. I believe each airline ended up paying the other penalties over the failed deal in the $100MM-$250MM range. KLM essentially viewed AZ as toxic.


I always thought these two were, culturally, polar opposites and consequently, incompatible ... the gruff, no-nonsense Dutch and the disorganized, excitable Italians. It was really never going to work; even at governmental level, the Dutch and the Italians are often at loggerheads!

One of the miracles of AZ history is that it never lost an MD11 at Kai Tak ... they always seem to try very hard!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbIFgbYfsw
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:36 am

kaitak wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
steman wrote:


I always thought these two were, culturally, polar opposites and consequently, incompatible ... the gruff, no-nonsense Dutch and the disorganized, excitable Italians. It was really never going to work; even at governmental level, the Dutch and the Italians are often at loggerheads!

One of the miracles of AZ history is that it never lost an MD11 at Kai Tak ... they always seem to try very hard!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbIFgbYfsw


Not sure I would agree, or appreciate the over-generalized and stereotypes mentioned here. KLM was, and still is, a well managed company and I'd agree that AZ was not a good fit. The same reasons KLM walked away in 2000 exist today with other investors and airlines that have looked at AZ and decided to give it a pass. There is too much overlay with the Italian government within AZ and that goes back decades. The unions are another issue. Lastly, AZ offers a brand, yes, but little else is of real value. FCO doesn't work as a hub as it sits in a leisure destination, not a business one. AZ's MXP network is skeletal at best. The only real tangible value in AZ are the LIN slots.

As for the comment on AZ, the MD11 and Kai Tak, you should know that Alitalia has a solid safety record and is known for maintaining its planes very well, so the throw away comment isn't really fair, or warranted, nor is it accurate.
 
amc737
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:49 pm

The Alitalia 747-443s of course ended up with Virgin Atlantic, they would have had the registrations EI-CVG-K had they been delivered. As they were fairly advanced in construction they where delivered with what Alitalia ordered so had notices in the toilet in English and Italian and the in-flight entertainment was unique to these aircraft - i think Virgin called it "Nova"

Reference KLM and Alitalia, I believe at one point KLM routed there Australia flights via Milan and the AZ 747-400s would have flown down under. In the UK most KLM partners ended flying to Stansted, which Alitalia did using 146's and KLM UK started flights to Rome.

amc737
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:51 pm

The KLM 744's operated a W pattern: AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP and return.
The SYD-SIN-MXP sectors IIRC were only sold as AZ. Not sure if there were any AZ cabin crew onboard.

Edit: at one point the AZ DC-10's did serve SYD/MEL.
 
PresRDC
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:00 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:35 pm

I flew on an AZ MD-11 Combi from JFK to FCO in June 1997. Flight was supposed to be operated by a 763, but was swapped for an MD-11.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6993
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:22 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Edit: at one point the AZ DC-10's did serve SYD/MEL.


Indeed, I brlieve it was during their first few years with AZ before the service was switched to the 747s sometimes during the second-half of the '70s.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6993
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Alitalia's DC10s

Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:29 pm

kaitak wrote:
One of the miracles of AZ history is that it never lost an MD11 at Kai Tak ... they always seem to try very hard!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbIFgbYfsw


Yup, I remember seeing it back in 1999 on airdisaster.com shortly after hearing about the Mandarin MD-11 back flip. It surprised me that it didn't end with a MLG collapse, at the very least.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos