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fcogafa
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Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:03 pm

Airbus is apparently asking Governments to fund the scappage of older aircraft to get airlines buy new Airbuses! Things are getting desparate.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ge-scheme/
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited title for clarity
 
trex8
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:06 pm

Like the cash for clunkers the US had after the GFC
 
DTVG
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:22 pm

Lol, the German‘s will probably present this as some kind of climate action program.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:33 pm

So....

Step 1) Threaten to sue airlines who cant' afford to buy planes right now
Step 2) Beg government to pay airlines to buy new planes they otherwise can't afford right now
Step 3) Any other suggestions?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:40 pm

How would a scrappage scheme work for an aircraft?

Normal scrappage would see airlines/leaseholders getting money for the aircraft being scrapped already. So what would this program do that's different from normal scrappage?
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kjeld0d
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:41 pm

"a programme that would encourage carriers to buy new jets and take older, less revenue-generating more polluting ones out of service"
 
Kilopond
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:47 pm

trex8 wrote:
Like the cash for clunkers the US had after the GFC


Programs like this had been started in many countries after the financial crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program

However, the source of the news has to be taken with a huge chunk of salt! There are no reports in French or German language, as of now. However, Les Echos report(s) that France might help out the domestic aviation manufacturers with € 10 bn, after the road vehicle sector and the tourism industry got 8 and 18 bn., respectively.

[FR] https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... es-1209033
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:57 pm

trex8 wrote:
Like the cash for clunkers the US had after the GFC


Are you aware, that the US introduced this very late, after their own economy already collapsed, while other countries had successful protected their industries with such programs months before? The north americans were just the copycats here!

This repeats just now, nearly all countries on the world protect their economies, while only in the US, the unemployment rate skyrockets...
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:35 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Airbus is apparently asking Governments to fund the scappage of older aircraft to get airlines buy new Airbuses! Things are getting desparate.

Except that thanks to their efforts to sell more airliners, they produced a lot more than is needed before to bridge the transition to their NEOs. Consequently, flooding the market with a surfeit of newish capacity which now set airlines in a quandary on how to put same into productive use in the current climate. Maybe the OEM should send governments (free, of course) a "green" aircraft or two for the states' use to demonstrate the eco-friendly qualities of their products and convince those of the earnestness of their crusade. :bigthumbsup:
Last edited by Devilfish on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A300neo
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:46 pm

Kilopond wrote:
However, the source of the news has to be taken with a huge chunk of salt! There are no reports in French or German language, as of now.

There was a Lufthansa press conference recently, where CEO Spohr also siad, that such a program would be really nice and new planes would safe so much CO2. Guess the whole airline industry would love to see sth like that.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 pm

A300neo wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
However, the source of the news has to be taken with a huge chunk of salt! There are no reports in French or German language, as of now.

There was a Lufthansa press conference recently, where CEO Spohr also siad, that such a program would be really nice and new planes would safe so much CO2. Guess the whole airline industry would love to see sth like that.

Government sponsored fleet renewals? Who wouldn’t sign up for that...
 
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william
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 pm

AIrbus has a 10 year backlog of A320s, why do they need this?.....................................Or is that 10 year backlog not so solid. And if not, how much of that 6000-7000 backlog is soft?
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
This repeats just now, nearly all countries on the world protect their economies, while only in the US, the unemployment rate skyrockets...


When did U.S. air carriers get support funds in 2020? When did LH, BA, JL, AFKL get their support funds? Specific dates, please.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:42 pm

DTVG wrote:
Lol, the German‘s will probably present this as some kind of climate action program.


Probably.

'Our new aircraft don't make a compelling case for themselves in operating cost reduction, so we'd like government subsidies to sell this stuff, please.'

This is absolutely the insane trying to run the asylum.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:45 pm

I apologise if my previous post offended anyone. It was mean to be completely sarcastic, but I guess that didn't come through.
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paperwastage
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:18 am

william wrote:
AIrbus has a 10 year backlog of A320s, why do they need this?.....................................Or is that 10 year backlog not so solid. And if not, how much of that 6000-7000 backlog is soft?


in order to stimulate/maintain that backlog demand.

a lot of carriers had placed down orders contributing to that backlog.
- some based on increasing passenger demand (which won't happen now for at least a few years)
- some based on replacing old fleet (replacement can be delayed, due to lower demand/low fuel cost, better to fly a paid-off plane than to buy a new one)

you hear a lot of saber rattling the past few days
Qatar wont buy planes if Boeing/Airbus refuse to defer orders
Airbus planning to sue customers if they don't take delivery - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447249

with scrappage scheme, at least some of the backlog will be fulfilled instead of being deferred (or held up in court through lawsuits), while others will be bought by airlines who scrapped planes and willing to take over the delivery slot
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 am

william wrote:
AIrbus has a 10 year backlog of A320s, why do they need this?.....................................Or is that 10 year backlog not so solid. And if not, how much of that 6000-7000 backlog is soft?


There is also the problem that a lot of airlines could defer orders with so many older models on the market...thus depressing resale values, unless they need planes to replace worn-out frames (an idea right now could be Air Canada getting a good deal on A20N/A21N frames if they decide to junk their B38M/B39M order). Airbus itself is an aircraft lessor as well. There will be a lot of A320s coming onto the market, such as 6E, which will not extend any A320 leases and move to just an A20N/A21N/AT76 fleet. Also basically worth nothing on the market are any A332s or A333s below 233t, A346s, and A388s. Existing A343s will likely continue to fly as they're in the 300-seat range. (The A321 has a freighter conversion program.)
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:51 am

Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:23 am

TonyClifton wrote:
A300neo wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
However, the source of the news has to be taken with a huge chunk of salt! There are no reports in French or German language, as of now.

There was a Lufthansa press conference recently, where CEO Spohr also siad, that such a program would be really nice and new planes would safe so much CO2. Guess the whole airline industry would love to see sth like that.

Government sponsored fleet renewals? Who wouldn’t sign up for that...

If attractive, every current order would be cancelled and re-ordered. Even more industry chaos. Perhaps airlines placing aircraft in temporary storage have been tipped off. Great for Airbus buybacks with A340's (stored, still being depreciated) and A380's (yet to come).
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:51 am

If this is true, allied with bullying of airlines, asking for government bailout, etc etc etc. It would be quite concerning.
Makes Airbus look like a cash strapped, "on the ropes" sort of company which would love a bit of Chapter 11 in their history.
Not saying that will happen but Airbus seems way too desperate even though it has a massive order backlog, cannot shift aircraft quick enough to meet demand and has its main rival in dire straits...

Boeing is not behaving this way (at least no publicly...) and has just come out of a failed JV and has still one of its main products (the main SH product) not even able to fly, let alone get more substantial orders...

I would really love to know what is really happening behind those Airbus rooms whether their Financial and Board Meetings are happening...
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:00 am

CO2 tax

Put that in place, then there is an incentive to renew fleets.
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:30 am

JoergAtADN wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Like the cash for clunkers the US had after the GFC


Are you aware, that the US introduced this very late, after their own economy already collapsed, while other countries had successful protected their industries with such programs months before? The north americans were just the copycats here!

This repeats just now, nearly all countries on the world protect their economies, while only in the US, the unemployment rate skyrockets...


No unemployment EXCEPT in the USA? You're kind of uninformed.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:08 am

9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.
Last edited by VSMUT on Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:30 am

william wrote:
AIrbus has a 10 year backlog of A320s, why do they need this?.....................................Or is that 10 year backlog not so solid. And if not, how much of that 6000-7000 backlog is soft?


The whole thing is softer than a jelly on a hot day. My sources tell me Airbus only has 17 really firm orders in their entire backlog. True.



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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:47 am

smartplane wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
A300neo wrote:
There was a Lufthansa press conference recently, where CEO Spohr also siad, that such a program would be really nice and new planes would safe so much CO2. Guess the whole airline industry would love to see sth like that.

Government sponsored fleet renewals? Who wouldn’t sign up for that...

If attractive, every current order would be cancelled and re-ordered. Even more industry chaos. Perhaps airlines placing aircraft in temporary storage have been tipped off. Great for Airbus buybacks with A340's (stored, still being depreciated) and A380's (yet to come).


There are sufficient ways to avoid such a behaviour, e.g that a purchase contract needs to have been in the books for x amount of time already, for every airliner scraped by airline xyv an amount of xxx EUR/USD is sponsored to finance a new aircraft,... don´t expect only morons to sit in authorities to decide about such schemes.

9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Yes. The moment you limit it to Airbus only you might as well go to court right away due to discrimatory behavior.

paperwastage wrote:
with scrappage scheme, at least some of the backlog will be fulfilled instead of being deferred (or held up in court through lawsuits), while others will be bought by airlines who scrapped planes and willing to take over the delivery slot


Correct. Such a scheme´s primary motivation would be to ensure airlines being able to take a certain number of aircraft from Airbus & Boeing & Embraer to ensure these companies keep a bit of steadyness and keep the supply chains active and effective, whilst at the same tiem reducing environmental footprints around airports by reducing the share of older and noisier planes (= increasing the share of quiet planes), which increases voter support down the line.

william wrote:
AIrbus has a 10 year backlog of A320s, why do they need this?.....................................Or is that 10 year backlog not so solid. And if not, how much of that 6000-7000 backlog is soft?


Neither Airbus nor Boeing nor Embraer will currently been able to answer you the question how firm their backlogs really are. Both Airbus and Boeing have in recent days taken the unusual way of reminding airlines publically about the consequences of signed contracts and the obligations for both parties resulting of firm contracts. Boeing used the Volga-Dnepr case, Airbus a more generic way. Both used the communication as a measure to protect their backlogs.

Devilfish wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Airbus is apparently asking Governments to fund the scappage of older aircraft to get airlines buy new Airbuses! Things are getting desparate.

Except that thanks to their efforts to sell more airliners, they produced a lot more than is needed before to bridge the transition to their NEOs. Consequently, flooding the market with a surfeit of newish capacity which now set airlines in a quandary on how to put same into productive use in the current climate. Maybe the OEM should send governments (free, of course) a "green" aircraft or two for the states' use to demonstrate the eco-friendly qualities of their products and convince those of the earnestness of their crusade. :bigthumbsup:


Catch 22. If you don´t produce another one will, worst a new competitor will enter the market. The decision has been right, and as long as clients demand your product you will manufacture if you can.
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:27 pm

It's more about protecting the aftermarket, so that when the recovery comes the number of parked planes is lower. They did miss a trick in not presenting this as a green program though. That's a sure way of getting lots of blind support even if it is a cynical and and ineffective use of taxpayers money.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:29 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Catch 22. If you don´t produce another one will, worst a new competitor will enter the market. The decision has been right, and as long as clients demand your product you will manufacture if you can.

I would add "and pay for" to that.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.


Well that's not certain. Usually there would be rules and enforcement mechanisms, like the WTO, to prevent playing favorites. But since a certain guy wearing a MAGA hat is tearing those apart, slapping tariffs left and right, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Airbus only scheme.
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:51 pm

Bricktop wrote:
It's more about protecting the aftermarket, so that when the recovery comes the number of parked planes is lower. They did miss a trick in not presenting this as a green program though. That's a sure way of getting lots of blind support even if it is a cynical and and ineffective use of taxpayers money.

Will the scrappage scheme keep parts off the market? If not, many vendors will be hurt at the benefit of the airframers

I agree this is cynical. Put a tax on non grown (ensure airlines buy "renewable") fuel.

As engine makers make their profits on overhauls, their mid-term prospects drop either way. I expect many old aircraft to be bought for green time engines.

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VSMUT
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.


Well that's not certain. Usually there would be rules and enforcement mechanisms, like the WTO, to prevent playing favorites. But since a certain guy wearing a MAGA hat is tearing those apart, slapping tariffs left and right, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Airbus only scheme.


Could be, but the EU rarely allows dirty play like that. Even if they did, it would likely be open to Canadian and Brazilian manufacturers as well, just not the American one.

But removing excess capacity from the market will benefit all manufacturers anyway.
 
Aither
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:25 pm

If governments really want to greenify the planet they should let the economy fall...
or invest in better technologies:

The cost per year in the world of air pollution on our societies is estimated around 4.5 trillions USD.
If true, and If through incentives in the transport industry you can reduce this by let say 1%, it makes a 45b USD investment per year worth it (if my math with all these zeros is correct :p )
Aviation if around 10-15% of the transport CO2 emissions. This makes 5b USD/year to incentivize airlines to renew their fleets something governments could consider.
I'm not sure about the figures. But it's not crazy to subsidize these things with billions.
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par13del
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:49 pm

Aither wrote:
If governments really want to greenify the planet they should let the economy fall...
or invest in better technologies:
.

So you do not think the current pandemic and governments all over the world falling over themselves to implement measures designed by the medical professionals which shut down national economies resulting in the waters in Venice, the climate in Europe, India, China etc. all clearing up while CO2 levels drop dramatically is not a sign of them doing something?

When I put on my tin foil hat the one thing that stands out is that everything taking place now in the aviation industry is exactly what the climate change activist have been pushing for, it has made the tax methods that the governments implemented with their carbon trading schemes irrelevant.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:14 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
So....

Step 1) Threaten to sue airlines who cant' afford to buy planes right now
Step 2) Beg government to pay airlines to buy new planes they otherwise can't afford right now
Step 3) Any other suggestions?

Maybe with EU governments not meeting their targets for defense spending they could get Airbus to produce some products these same governments want to buy for their own use, i.e. military aircraft, rather than paying to buy junk aircraft?
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:59 pm

Bricktop wrote:
It's more about protecting the aftermarket, so that when the recovery comes the number of parked planes is lower. They did miss a trick in not presenting this as a green program though. That's a sure way of getting lots of blind support even if it is a cynical and and ineffective use of taxpayers money.

I think they did present it as such...albeit not very strongly. :mrgreen: From the linked article.....

Quote:
"The pan-European plane maker has approached the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Beis) about a programme that would encourage carriers to buy new jets and take older, more polluting ones out of service.

Several other European countries have already ordered bailed-out ­airlines to upgrade to more carbon-friendly fleets as a condition of their rescue, and it is hoped that similar pressure in Britain could help protect many of Airbus’s 134,000 workers ­following a catastrophic plunge in ­demand."



However, that last part confirms your first point.



Revelation wrote:
Maybe with EU governments not meeting their targets for defense spending they could get Airbus to produce some products these same governments want to buy for their own use, i.e. military aircraft, rather than paying to buy junk aircraft?

So, where does the OEM get its "free" money from then? :stirthepot: Although, dedicated state transports could be loosely classified as "military aircraft" too, couldn't they? :wink2:
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:48 pm

Aither wrote:
If governments really want to greenify the planet they should let the economy fall...
or invest in better technologies:

The cost per year in the world of air pollution on our societies is estimated around 4.5 trillions USD.
If true, and If through incentives in the transport industry you can reduce this by let say 1%, it makes a 45b USD investment per year worth it (if my math with all these zeros is correct :p )
Aviation if around 10-15% of the transport CO2 emissions. This makes 5b USD/year to incentivize airlines to renew their fleets something governments could consider.
I'm not sure about the figures. But it's not crazy to subsidize these things with billions.


CO2 emissions aren’t harmful to human health. It’s pollutants like NOx, SO2, VOCs, and particulate matter that harm people and new commercial aircraft are no fix. The opportunity here to improve human welfare is zero. It’s a big business hand out searching for a justification.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
So....

Step 1) Threaten to sue airlines who cant' afford to buy planes right now
Step 2) Beg government to pay airlines to buy new planes they otherwise can't afford right now
Step 3) Any other suggestions?

Maybe with EU governments not meeting their targets for defense spending they could get Airbus to produce some products these same governments want to buy for their own use, i.e. military aircraft, rather than paying to buy junk aircraft?


A320 target drones? :-) just kidding....
 
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:44 pm

A spot of optimistic analysis to banish the doom and gloom..... :optimist: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/why-airlin ... 38.article
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ltbewr
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:13 pm

I suspect the scrap metal market prices have dropped to recent historic lows due to the slowdown in the economy of much of the world, especially China from the pandemic. That has like slowed the scrappage rate and new aircraft orders. Airbus is likely one of the largest manufacturing employers in Europe, especially with subcontractors, so politicians want to keep those jobs to get re-elected so try to mess with the demand for new planes by forcing more scrappage.
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
CO2 tax

Put that in place, then there is an incentive to renew fleets.


I agree. You could certainly read previously enacted regulation that way (a virtuous veneer on a plan to incentivise purchase of new aircraft).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... egulations

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... or-planes/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:37 pm

Devilfish wrote:
A spot of optimistic analysis to banish the doom and gloom..... :optimist: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/why-airlin ... 38.article

I think one does need to put on the rose colored glasses when reading the article:

The trend reflects an effort by airlines to realise the fuel-efficiency benefits of newer jets and to avoid the hefty expense of maintaining older aircraft, says Cirium head of valuations George Dimitroff.

“Despite what anyone may tell you – [that] low fuel prices mean older aircraft are going to be in vogue – it’s not happening,” Dimitroff says during an 8 June webcast hosted by financial services company Jefferies. “Older aircraft are being retired.”

Airlines are putting newer and more-efficient jets “to work first” as the industry begins a slow recovery, he adds. That strategy enables carriers to recognise benefits from both improved fuel efficiency and cheaper fuel expenses, Dimitroff adds.

I suppose if you presume Airbus can talk governments into buying and scrapping the old ones that's confirmation that the airlines would be happy to have governments buy the old ones, but we knew that already. Personally I doubt governments are ready to start doing so any time soon. There's already too many pigs at the trough of corporate welfare.

The main problem for Airbus is the airlines have a lot of parked airplanes to pick through before they accept the new ones parked in Toulouse. A new owned airplane is better than an old owned airplane but both are better than a new undelivered airplane.
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:


As engine makers make their profits on overhauls, their mid-term prospects drop either way. I expect many old aircraft to be bought for green time engines.

Lightsaber


That was one of the "features" of the Cash For Clunkers program. When turned in, the clunkers were subjected to a treatment that destroyed the engine, no matter how well it ran.The idea was to take the "clunker" and all of the parts on it, no matter how good they were, and eliminate them from the "system." This supposedly sped up the quicker elimination of the clunkers that weren't turned in, as parts wouldn't be as plentiful for them.
 
spartanmjf
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:08 am

Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.


Well that's not certain. Usually there would be rules and enforcement mechanisms, like the WTO, to prevent playing favorites. But since a certain guy wearing a MAGA hat is tearing those apart, slapping tariffs left and right, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Airbus only scheme.


Save your politics please.

By the way, how did the earth-loving super efficient A380 get built? Launch aid?
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Sokes
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:05 am

Aesma wrote:
CO2 tax

Put that in place, then there is an incentive to renew fleets.

:checkmark:
Not only would it remove old planes that consume too much fuel. A lot more money would flow into engine research. However your proposal is the long term solution. It doesn't address cash flow problems at the moment.

VSMUT wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Would this scheme apply to airlines that fly Boeing jets too?


Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.

I assume Boeing would be very happy if there had to be a scrapping offer for only Airbus planes. Important for Boeing is only that old capacity gets removed, from whatever manufacturer. As same is true for Airbus, why would they have an interest to have only their planes removed?
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VSMUT
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:48 am

Sokes wrote:
As same is true for Airbus, why would they have an interest to have only their planes removed?


Airbus makes very little money from 20+ year old A320's. It's water under the bridge. They are just clogging up the market for narrowbody aircraft, hogging demand that would otherwise be provided by Airbus building expensive brand new planes.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
Personally I doubt governments are ready to start doing so any time soon. There's already too many pigs at the trough of corporate welfare.

I think it's already beginning...wonder who would do much of the "hogging"..... :hyper:

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 49.article


Revelation wrote:
A new owned airplane is better than an old owned airplane but both are better than a new undelivered airplane.

Even if the new undelivered plane comes "essentially free" albeit with strings attached :?:
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:30 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Personally I doubt governments are ready to start doing so any time soon. There's already too many pigs at the trough of corporate welfare.

I think it's already beginning...wonder who would do much of the "hogging"..... :hyper:

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 49.article

Revelation wrote:
A new owned airplane is better than an old owned airplane but both are better than a new undelivered airplane.

Even if the new undelivered plane comes "essentially free" albeit with strings attached :?:

Yes, this is the kind of welfare I expected. The link did not mention repurchase of used aircraft, unless I missed it.

I'm also not seeing how it produces essentially free aircraft. It says there will be loan guarantees and delays on repayments but that isn't very helpful if you have more aircraft than you need. Buying old aircraft that are close to retirement would help a company with too many aircraft, but I don't see mention of that in this article.

Providing loan guarantees and deferring repayment are helpful but don't cause governments to have to lay out cash. Repurchasing aircraft would. It's a big ask from Airbus.
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Flying-Tiger
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Sokes wrote:
As same is true for Airbus, why would they have an interest to have only their planes removed?


Airbus makes very little money from 20+ year old A320's. It's water under the bridge. They are just clogging up the market for narrowbody aircraft, hogging demand that would otherwise be provided by Airbus building expensive brand new planes.


This has actually been one of the drivers why Airbus has been very keen on mass production in the past few years. (Paid) after sales support has never been a stronghold by Airbus and only turned in only 4% of the Airbus turnover and slightly more on EBIT level vs about 20% at Boeing (figures IIRC, can´t find them), however strongly expanding. Part of trying to expand the fleet was / is certainly the intention to build up more volume for after sales market chances.

DfwRevolution wrote:
CO2 emissions aren’t harmful to human health. It’s pollutants like NOx, SO2, VOCs, and particulate matter that harm people and new commercial aircraft are no fix. The opportunity here to improve human welfare is zero. It’s a big business hand out searching for a justification.


It´s always a question of quantity, and same applies to CO2, too. And what margin and to what effect remains up for discussion. However, I think you´ve forgotten one very large influencing factor re improving human welfare: noise, which is considered a major contributor the development of health. The A320neo´s engines are considered to be only half as loud as the A320ceo´s engines. Certainly an argument in favor of removing old planes.
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VSMUT
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:57 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
This has actually been one of the drivers why Airbus has been very keen on mass production in the past few years. (Paid) after sales support has never been a stronghold by Airbus and only turned in only 4% of the Airbus turnover and slightly more on EBIT level vs about 20% at Boeing (figures IIRC, can´t find them), however strongly expanding. Part of trying to expand the fleet was / is certainly the intention to build up more volume for after sales market chances.


That is true, but in a market where the manufacturers are having trouble pushing new aircraft out of the doors, sacrificing part of their aftermarket business is a small cost.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:08 pm

spartanmjf wrote:
Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Of course it would, just like the compensation could be put towards new Boeing aircraft. Removing cheap aircraft from the marketplace will benefit both manufacturers.


Well that's not certain. Usually there would be rules and enforcement mechanisms, like the WTO, to prevent playing favorites. But since a certain guy wearing a MAGA hat is tearing those apart, slapping tariffs left and right, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Airbus only scheme.


Save your politics please.


It's a political thread, there is "governments" in the title in case you missed it.

The French government's announcement will help Boeing, incidentally, since plenty of aerospace subcontractors that will get help are working for Boeing too.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Airbus wants governments to finance a scrappage scheme

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:11 pm

Once an expensive transportation unit has been produced the 'greenest' procedure is to use it until it wears out. Then replace with the newest most green model as opposed to moving from old, to newer green to newer green, and then to the most green. Some where on the internet there are probably graphs of how all this works. A kid needed a big hauler for a few thousand miles a year. He bought a cheapo used Sequoia and ran it until it needed some major maintenance.
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