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GLANKG
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:32 am

https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/ ... nitor.html
Average FR fare in spring 2019 is 59 EUR, Easyjet 56 EUR, Wizz 50 EUR.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 am

SueD wrote:
That said ground travel times within Austria and to neighbouring countries even East to West within the borders can be pretty long !

Its 4 ½ hours by train from Vienna to Munch while Vienna to Milan takes about 14 hours ( change in Switzerland) and Vienna to Berlin about 9 hours , even Vienna to Zurich is the best part of 8 hours .

Yes trains in Europe are all TGVs ( myth !) - Much of the European rail network is conventional at top speeds more closely to the 100 to 150 Kms range. Even those classy ICE trains in Germany spend much of their time on the conventional network .

Might seem a small and central country on a typical map however geographical and geological elements can make for ground travel difficulties and well somewhat time consuming- Oh and Vienna is right at the wrong end of the country when it comes to the rest of the EU .

Air travel from and to Vienna is the only viable way of doing business imho.


One thing follows the other. Investments in proper rail infrastructure need to be viable, and as long as airlines are undercutting railways, it just won't happen. Flights need to be curbed to make rail investments viable.

Every single point you listed was valid for Germany, France and Switzerland as well. They took the necessary steps, and now nobody flies between Frankfurt and Köln or Zürich and Lugano.
 
dfpinto
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:21 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Ryanair has been trying to promote BTS as the alternative to VIE for well over 10 years. It has some routes, but it never really made much impact on the Vienna market. Every time I flew Ryanair between London and Bratislava, passengers were speaking Slovak or English and not German.


I'm glad it didn't work. I can only see disadvantages for Bratislava to have the LCC traffic from VIE. Increased noise levels in a rather calm city, increased pollution levels in a rather "clean" city and, probably most annoying of all, more stag parties from gentlemen from Western countries that don't know how to behave like normal human beings.

I see only two benefits coming out of this shift:
    Shorter trip time for Bratislava residents, although, I don't know anyone from Bratislava that is unhappy with the 5 EUR / 45 min trip to VIE
    More jobs, although, a lot of Slovak citizens already work in VIE and probably with much better salaries

Let's not forget as well VIE was key for the economical growth of Bratislava region, especially in the shared services industry. In my opinion, traffic should stay where it is.
 
jhz94
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:25 am

I find it quite reasonable, the ticket prices in Europe has been way to low to sustainably support the airlines unless a race to the bottom in regard to working conditions has been running. It is ridiculous that you for the same price as taking the train or a taxi to the airport can fly from Scandinavia to the Canaries nowadays.
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B777LRF
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:25 am

The proposed law makes absolute sense, unless you subscribe to the deeply anti-social thought that carriers should be allowed to sell seats below cost, in order to drive out the incumbent carrier at an airport. I'm sorry, but that only makes sense if you're the CEO of socially irresponsible companies such as Ryanair and Wizz, who doesn't give a flying so-and-so about their employees, their suppliers or the society that enables them to have a business in the first place.

The proposed law says that if the total taxes are e.g. 40EUR, you can't offer a ticket for sale at 39EUR inclusive of taxes. Please tell me what's wrong with that idea.

OSL777FLYER wrote:
LH might not want to continue with the OS brand. And people will not want to travel to Vienna for a weekend getaway.


Since Germany already has a similar law in place, are you suggesting the LH Group also discontinues the LH and Eurowings brands?
Signature. You just read one.
 
LJ
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:45 am

Blerg wrote:
Is the railway system really that competitive in Europe? I remember some years ago I had to travel to northern Netherlands (Franker) and then to the south (Maastricht). Both times I flew into AMS from where I took a train to my final destination. Personally, it was horrible with so many stops, change of trains and so on.


You do realise that Franeker is not located in an area where one would expect intercity trains? It's a small town and is even lucky to have a railways station. Rail service to Franeker isn't representative of Dutch railway service, especially when you go to one of the most Southern points of The Netherlands

The train is competitive. The company I work for sends almost all its employees by train to Paris from The Netherlands. Brussels by plane is a no no and by car it regulary takes more time than by train (traffic jams in Brussels are really problematic). From a price perspective, the Thalys isn't expensive when you take the off peak trains and price isn't an issue when travelling on business.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:17 am

Intetesting and extensive analysis of minimum pricing in Austria. Article is in German but if you put it through Chrome or Google Translate it is very readable

https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... gezeichen/

Separately, Austrian is to cease flying their Vienna-Salzburg route, encouraging pax to take the train (express to VIE airport runs direct every 2 hours and takes about 2h50)
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:03 am

IWMBH wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


I don’t agree, I think there is a market for both. But, even if this is the case than the LCC have every right to do so. If there is a market for travel between two “secondary cities” than an airline will open the route. If not, good riddance.


why LH or SK should pay airport taxes and FR or EZ receive funds to fly to an airport? it's just not fair competition.
 
Sokes
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:06 am

The article says that each city within three hours with train from Vienna Airport railway station can't be served by train anymore. My opinion: That's why the deal says that Vienna has to grow in percent as much as Frankfurt. The article gives the example for a flight from Linz to New York. Those who don't want to take the train to Vienna in future will have to fly via e.g. Frankfurt. Good: It allows bigger planes with less CASM for Linz-Frankfurt. Naturally the Austrian government wants some hub traffic for Vienna in exchange. I find that regulation very good.
What does it mean that tickets can't be sold below fees/ taxes? It doesn't make sense to sell a ticket below fees unless it includes some fees like (landing fee/ number of seats).

Can a free market supporter support fixed minimum ticket prices in times of Corona?
I have excess planes whose capital cost I have to pay anyway. I have employees who I have to pay anyway. So I may be happy to get just enough to pay for fuel, maintenance and fees.
However once I decide to send a plane on a certain route, should I sell unsold seats at marginal cost?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_cost

Until Corona gets under control I find it good politics to stop airlines from selling tickets for marginal cost. At least better than to discuss state aid. 40 Euros is not enough.
Take the cost of a flight including capital costs and everything else and divide it by the number of seats. 30% of that cost sounds like a reasonable minimum price. There is still a huge price variation to prevent that everybody wants to fly at the same time. At the same time it is helping the airlines to cover costs.
Once airlines are profitable again one can make free markets again.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
IWMBH
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:31 am

Kikko19 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


I don’t agree, I think there is a market for both. But, even if this is the case than the LCC have every right to do so. If there is a market for travel between two “secondary cities” than an airline will open the route. If not, good riddance.


why LH or SK should pay airport taxes and FR or EZ receive funds to fly to an airport? it's just not fair competition.


Ryanair pay less fees at smaller airports because they’re often their only client. LH and SK are free to also use these airports. But, they won’t. Because their businessmodel relies on customers that want to pay extra to land at an airport closer to the city. I don’t see why this is unfair.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:31 am

Sokes wrote:
Can a free market supporter support fixed minimum ticket prices in times of Corona?


Google 'Pigou, externalities'

It's clear that flights have unpriced externalities: noise, airport congestion that limits aircraft movement efficiency, CO2 emissions -- to start. If you want to cut CO2 emissions, make CO2-emitting transport more expensive. Trains are a reasonable short-haul alternative where the network is in place, use a lot less energy per passenger mile, and some places (Germany, for one) already get ~50% of electricity from renewable resources.

Pricing in externalities is a lot different from mandating prices near average cost: you're rolling back 25 years of airline deregulation in Europe (and about 40 years in the U.S.)

Sokes wrote:
Once airlines are profitable again one can make free markets again.


You may not be trying to be ironic but you've largely succeeded -- there would be enormous push-back from entrenched interests (investors, employees) against the efficiency discipline imposed by free markets. They would get accustomed to easy money and easy jobs: see Sabena, Alitalia, SAA... They just bleed money forever but politicians lack the will to cut off funds. You might never get free markets back - and consumers would be overpaying for air travel indefinitely.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aviator2000
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:47 am

IWMBH wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

I don’t agree, I think there is a market for both. But, even if this is the case than the LCC have every right to do so. If there is a market for travel between two “secondary cities” than an airline will open the route. If not, good riddance.


why LH or SK should pay airport taxes and FR or EZ receive funds to fly to an airport? it's just not fair competition.


Ryanair pay less fees at smaller airports because they’re often their only client. LH and SK are free to also use these airports. But, they won’t. Because their businessmodel relies on customers that want to pay extra to land at an airport closer to the city. I don’t see why this is unfair.


Plus in the cases when LCCs do get paid to offer those flights, it's because the region needs them (for whichever reasons) and the "regular" airlines don't think or can't make those flights profitable with the subsidies, whilst LCCs can.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:53 am

aviator2000 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:

why LH or SK should pay airport taxes and FR or EZ receive funds to fly to an airport? it's just not fair competition.


Ryanair pay less fees at smaller airports because they’re often their only client. LH and SK are free to also use these airports. But, they won’t. Because their businessmodel relies on customers that want to pay extra to land at an airport closer to the city. I don’t see why this is unfair.


Plus in the cases when LCCs do get paid to offer those flights, it's because the region needs them (for whichever reasons) and the "regular" airlines don't think or can't make those flights profitable with the subsidies, whilst LCCs can.


I don’t see why that would be a problem. As long as there is a equal playing field when airlines can bid on these tenders.
 
airhansa
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:53 am

I think some are getting too carried away with the importance of VIE as a hub and of OS as an airline. It's existence is mostly due to domestic demand and transit passengers remain minimal. It's likely that these passengers aren't going to flee to an entirely different country speaking a different language, and VIE vs MUC is already a thing.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:32 pm

In my mind cheap fares are cheap before taxes. In France I'm pretty sure you can't have a fare below the cost of taxes. Even "free" tickets redeemed with miles have to pay the taxes.

Now should there be a maximum price to go with a minimum price ? In hotels for example the hotel has to decide what is the "normal" price of the room, and can discount it, or go over it, but only in proportion of that normal price, with limits.

I'm sure people would like if yield management was a bit less extreme, with two people seated next to each other having paid vaslty different sums.
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mxaxai
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:43 pm

Currently, flights are subject to fees and taxes of ~35 €. Example with LH, VIE-SZG (Edit: OS just announced today that VIE-SZG will not be resumed but for the sake of this argument you can still buy tickets):

International/Domestic Surcharge 5,00 EUR
Passenger Security Charge 8,32 EUR
Air Transport Levy 3,50 EUR
Passenger Service Charge (PAX) 18,51 EUR

So it's a bit unclear whether the overall cost with the new regulation would be at least 35 EUR (0 EUR fare + 35 EUR fees & taxes) or at least 70 EUR (35 EUR fare + 35 EUR fees & taxes, "fare == fees & taxes"). The former seems like a pretty valid request.

Sadly, Ryanair is less forthcoming regarding the composition of their ticket prices. But with fees & taxes at 35 EUR, one wonders how they can offer tickets for <20 EUR...
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:53 pm

Full blown Marxist behavior.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:06 pm

The APD in London is a flat rate tax correct?

Why can't Austria introduce this tax at all airports in Austria? How would that be illegal?
 
Sokes
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Pricing in externalities is a lot different from mandating prices near average cost: you're rolling back 25 years of airline deregulation in Europe (and about 40 years in the U.S.)

30% is not close to average, which may be 103%.
But yes, it may set a bad precedent.

MIflyer12 wrote:
You may not be trying to be ironic but you've largely succeeded -- there would be enormous push-back from entrenched interests (investors, employees) against the efficiency discipline imposed by free markets. They would get accustomed to easy money and easy jobs: see Sabena, Alitalia, SAA... They just bleed money forever but politicians lack the will to cut off funds. You might never get free markets back - and consumers would be overpaying for air travel indefinitely.

Free markets means mostly equal treatment for all. Limiting foreign competitors is anti free market, not my proposal.
People would overpay because everybody has to pay at least 30% of his share? One may also argue that those who pay a lot at the moment overpay.
Where did my proposal include state aid to airlines? I said a minimum fee (which at 30% of cost isn't high) is better than state aid to airlines.
Nothing is indefinitely.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:41 pm

So the politicians created an economic crisis by bluntly shutting down the economy, and when businesses like airlines as a result need to be rescued, politicians have the nerve to demand a pound of flesh??
 
AA747123
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:00 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


Isn't that what competition is all about? Adapt and survive or dont?
 
Sokes
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
Now should there be a maximum price to go with a minimum price ? In hotels for example the hotel has to decide what is the "normal" price of the room, and can discount it, or go over it, but only in proportion of that normal price, with limits.

While you support my argument, I have to disagree.
Tunesia in winter is too cold for swimming. If a hotel sends workers home for four months they may loose work discipline. Also to prevent fungi and probably for indirect jobs it's better to keep hotels open. I met retired people who stayed from Nov to Feb. They said they can't afford heating and other expenses in Germany. So in these four months they were able to save some money for the remaining eight months in Germany. I believe they paid around 15 Euro/ day.
Similar a Mo - Fr holiday package has to be attractive for retired people who should free the rooms for working population during the weekend.
I find free market quite fair here. It's not like some people pay four times what others pay at this time. There is just no demand from normal holiday makers at that time. In Tunesia the most expensive two weeks may be five times the price, but then it fits the demand.
Similar if a flight in the morning has strong demand it's right the airline charges much more. But if in the same plane some people pay 300 Euro and others 40 Euro, that's overdoing it.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Vio
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:18 pm

If it was up to me, I'd do away with LCC. As an airline employee, I'm not okay with the fact that the people who end up "paying" for these low fares are workers and their families. Argue all you want, it won't change my mind. I've been doing this thing (aviation) for a while now. The RACE TO THE BOTTOM (pay / benefits wise) is a thorn in my @r$e.
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Blerg
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:25 pm

GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


350 km by road or air distance?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:42 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


Isn't that what competition is all about? Adapt and survive or dont?



And air service goes from being useful business commerce to only shuffling thousands of cheap tourists to holiday destinations?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:01 pm

Sokes wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Now should there be a maximum price to go with a minimum price ? In hotels for example the hotel has to decide what is the "normal" price of the room, and can discount it, or go over it, but only in proportion of that normal price, with limits.

While you support my argument, I have to disagree.
Tunesia in winter is too cold for swimming. If a hotel sends workers home for four months they may loose work discipline. Also to prevent fungi and probably for indirect jobs it's better to keep hotels open. I met retired people who stayed from Nov to Feb. They said they can't afford heating and other expenses in Germany. So in these four months they were able to save some money for the remaining eight months in Germany. I believe they paid around 15 Euro/ day.
Similar a Mo - Fr holiday package has to be attractive for retired people who should free the rooms for working population during the weekend.
I find free market quite fair here. It's not like some people pay four times what others pay at this time. There is just no demand from normal holiday makers at that time. In Tunesia the most expensive two weeks may be five times the price, but then it fits the demand.
Similar if a flight in the morning has strong demand it's right the airline charges much more. But if in the same plane some people pay 300 Euro and others 40 Euro, that's overdoing it.


I think we're in agreement. For the hotel room you can have high season/low season pricing.

And for plane tickets I was also thinking of a range that could be large, just not from 1 to 10 for the same service. Maybe 1 to 5 ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
airbazar
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:42 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
armagnac2010 wrote:
Curious to see if it passes EU rules, setting a minimum price is generally not acceptable.

Also curious how Austrian customers will be able to redeem their Miles and More flights.

At this point, it is safe to say that the EU is dead, it is every nation for themselves now.


That has never changed. The EU is not a country. Each member nation has always maintained their sovereignty and ownership of their own laws and regulations.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:10 pm

EU is essential as ever for air travel.

Everywhere in the world, post Covid-19 return to normal operation is starting with domestic flights. Look at China. It will help operators in large countries, with a significant domestic market, such as the US, Canada, China, Russia or Australia etc. International flights will resume at a later date; the return will be slower.

In Europe, even the largest countries such as France Germany or Italy cannot offer the required domestic market required for this purpose (and within each countries rail is generally providing the services). The EU is however providing the framework to have domestic operations at the scale of the continent. This is the very purpose of the EASA/ECDC guidelines.

For the UK, this is a different story... No domestic market, 14 days quarantine. But you got what you vote for, folks.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:43 pm

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


350 km by road or air distance?


According to post # 18 by air. Dropping some of these flights in favour of trains would be idiotic. There is no reasonable railway connection between VIE and KRK. Railway connection to KSC (which is by the way 351km from VIE according to gcmap) sucks as well. If somebody thinks that I'll be traveling another 8 hours by train and changing trains twice after spending a night flying, he's out of his mind. And I'm off to fly LO.
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hohd
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:47 pm

I think it makes good sense, the pricing of some operators is too low even for the ULCC's to make any money. This drives the non-LCC carriers to struggle and drives the entire industry down.

Just look at Indonesia, India and Thailand, almost all operators there are losing money and the airport infrastructure is struggling to cope up. Anyway 40 euros is not much, it wont affect most of the LCC's any way.
 
Blerg
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:08 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


350 km by road or air distance?


According to post # 18 by air. Dropping some of these flights in favour of trains would be idiotic. There is no reasonable railway connection between VIE and KRK. Railway connection to KSC (which is by the way 351km from VIE according to gcmap) sucks as well. If somebody thinks that I'll be traveling another 8 hours by train and changing trains twice after spending a night flying, he's out of his mind. And I'm off to fly LO.


Maybe the government doesn't care as much about these destinations because so far they were mostly used by transfers which can be transferred to other LH Group hubs? I think OS gets subsidies from KSC so they can be transferred to Lufthansa from Munich. So is this 350 km a final thing or is it still in the negotiation phase?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:18 pm

Blerg wrote:

Maybe the government doesn't care as much about these destinations because so far they were mostly used by transfers which can be transferred to other LH Group hubs? I think OS gets subsidies from KSC so they can be transferred to Lufthansa from Munich. So is this 350 km a final thing or is it still in the negotiation phase?


I personally wouldn't care if the KSC flights would be transferred from VIE to MUC or FRA. As a matter of fact, it would be better for me. But let's see what happens. As far as KSC subsidizing OS is concerned, it is the first time I hear that. But if they do, they might as well subsidize LH instead of OS.
Unfortunately, I don't know if the 350 km is a done thing.
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davidjohnson6
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:18 pm

It would be very much in the interests of Austria if there are flights between Vienna and places like Kosice, Krakow, Prague or Zagreb . Geographical relative proximity suggests there are likely to be trade links between the two cities which benefit each other. Is there perhaps some applicable "train travel must be less than 3h" clause that is being missed here ?
Great Circle Mapper shows VIE-KSC to be about 354 km - so maybe this is deemed exempt
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:21 pm

Train from Vienna to Zagreb takes forever. Laughable to suggest this is acceptable to business travelers instead of a flight.
But this is what you get if Virtue Signaling is more important than common sense.
 
GLANKG
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:55 pm

Those flights won't all go away, but surely less frequency, business travellers won't be too bothered with 30 EUR extra.
Personally I hope there would be high speed rail between Vienna - Prague (- Berlin) and Vienna - Budapest in the future.
 
bhill
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:03 pm

I am curious, if this truly is a "Green" initiative, do we know how much carbon this will shift to the ground? Trains take electricity which does need to be generated or fossil fuels to operate, as do buses and cars, or is this a job saving ploy to garner votes? This seems like something China would do to prop up industries.
Carpe Pices
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:41 pm

Vio wrote:
If it was up to me, I'd do away with LCC. As an airline employee, I'm not okay with the fact that the people who end up "paying" for these low fares are workers and their families. Argue all you want, it won't change my mind. I've been doing this thing (aviation) for a while now. The RACE TO THE BOTTOM (pay / benefits wise) is a thorn in my @r$e.


So you work in an industry where margins are getting pushed tighter and tighter then they were before back in some heyday and now new entrants to the market offer customers more at better prices? Get in line with the rest of us in the modern commercial world. Oh btw, those really paying for the fares ,with their wallet, are who keep the industry going.


Reality is a pigovian tax should only be placed at an amount of the real cost to society of the carbon/noise etc, and not a penny more. Sometimes qualitative yes, but sometimes very quantitative. Unfortunately this tax discussed again looks like a simple brush of the stroke figure from a politician who is not really taking into consideration the actual cost to society, just what they think they can get away with politically, suits their beloved OS, and raises a bit for the exchequer. Sad thing is people here saying taxes should be higher because 'the taxi to the airport costs me $x'. Has anyone thought maybe the taxi should cost less, but is exorbitant because of excessive tax on domestic fuel? Point is it's all relative. If governments globally put a fair figure from scientists to the cost to our society of CO2 production, and this was imposed unilaterally by everyone, then we would see an ultimate fair market in the taxes imposed on air fares, and fuelling personal cars etc that no one could argue with. Instead we get idiotic slapstick figures designed just to raise cash and protect incumbent airlines. BS over the top tax levels help no one. It distorts the market, affecting employment to the industry, and costing the travelling public. I'm not versed in Austrian law but I hope there is the equivalent of a judicial review on its implementation level.
 
mileduets
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:03 pm

bhill wrote:
I am curious, if this truly is a "Green" initiative, do we know how much carbon this will shift to the ground? Trains take electricity which does need to be generated or fossil fuels to operate, as do buses and cars, or is this a job saving ploy to garner votes? This seems like something China would do to prop up industries.


Austria's electricity is primarily renewable energy based (75%); Swiss railway operator SBB, which operates the densest railway network in Europe, entirely relies on hydroelectric power. French SNCF mostly on nuclear energy. Germany shifted from predominantly coal based- to wind and solar based electricity.
But even in countries that still rely heavily on fossil fuels, operating trains is over all considerably greener than commercial aviation, particularly on short flights, as most energy is consumed in the take-off and climb phase of a flight.
From a "green" point of view it makes perfect sense to tax short haul flights, as kerosene is tax exempted.

Austria is renowned for its well functioning night train connections to various European cities. These are currently extended to more destinations. They offer a good alternative to flights, particularly for business travelers, as they arrive in the early morning and depart after business hours.
https://www.nightjet.com/en/reiseziele
Last edited by mileduets on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 482
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:06 pm

GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


Flights inside Austria,to GRZ,KLU,SZG and to BUD,PRG could certainly be replaced with trains..I dont know for sure about the VIE-INN line..Also what is the usual travel time by train on the VIE-LJU? Not all countries support a good and fast rail network so they should be careful with their decision...I once did GRZ-Maribor-Venice by train and it took me more than 15h with constant changes..Distance is only about 300km but no direct trains and a lot of changes in Slovenia and Italy..Better if i had gone to VIE to fly
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:13 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
Also what is the usual travel time by train on the VIE-LJU?


Train: 8 hours. Flix Bus: 5 hours.
 
DTVG
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:15 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Vio wrote:
If it was up to me, I'd do away with LCC. As an airline employee, I'm not okay with the fact that the people who end up "paying" for these low fares are workers and their families. Argue all you want, it won't change my mind. I've been doing this thing (aviation) for a while now. The RACE TO THE BOTTOM (pay / benefits wise) is a thorn in my @r$e.


So you work in an industry where margins are getting pushed tighter and tighter then they were before back in some heyday and now new entrants to the market offer customers more at better prices? Get in line with the rest of us in the modern commercial world. Oh btw, those really paying for the fares ,with their wallet, are who keep the industry going.


Reality is a pigovian tax should only be placed at an amount of the real cost to society of the carbon/noise etc, and not a penny more. Sometimes qualitative yes, but sometimes very quantitative. Unfortunately this tax discussed again looks like a simple brush of the stroke figure from a politician who is not really taking into consideration the actual cost to society, just what they think they can get away with politically, suits their beloved OS, and raises a bit for the exchequer. Sad thing is people here saying taxes should be higher because 'the taxi to the airport costs me $x'. Has anyone thought maybe the taxi should cost less, but is exorbitant because of excessive tax on domestic fuel? Point is it's all relative. If governments globally put a fair figure from scientists to the cost to our society of CO2 production, and this was imposed unilaterally by everyone, then we would see an ultimate fair market in the taxes imposed on air fares, and fuelling personal cars etc that no one could argue with. Instead we get idiotic slapstick figures designed just to raise cash and protect incumbent airlines. BS over the top tax levels help no one. It distorts the market, affecting employment to the industry, and costing the travelling public. I'm not versed in Austrian law but I hope there is the equivalent of a judicial review on its implementation level.


Excellent input, I'm afraid a lot of people here lack your rational view
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:43 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Train from Vienna to Zagreb takes forever. Laughable to suggest this is acceptable to business travelers instead of a flight.
But this is what you get if Virtue Signaling is more important than common sense.


Losing a day on a train is not acceptable for a North American VFR traveler either. Time is at premium when we are over there.
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mileduets
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:59 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Train from Vienna to Zagreb takes forever. Laughable to suggest this is acceptable to business travelers instead of a flight.
But this is what you get if Virtue Signaling is more important than common sense.


Losing a day on a train is not acceptable for a North American VFR traveler either. Time is at premium when we are over there.


Stop thinking day travel. Take a night train and save on hotel accommodation. Leave in the evening and arrive early in the morning. Sleeping on a train in a two person compartment is actually pretty comfortable. The network is growing again after almost all connections were abandoned (Trenitalia, SBB, DB...). Austria's ÖBB is actually offering the most connections of any European train operators.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/dam/jcr:6a8 ... z-2020.pdf
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:04 pm

mileduets wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Train from Vienna to Zagreb takes forever. Laughable to suggest this is acceptable to business travelers instead of a flight.
But this is what you get if Virtue Signaling is more important than common sense.


Losing a day on a train is not acceptable for a North American VFR traveler either. Time is at premium when we are over there.


Stop thinking day travel. Take a night train and save on hotel accommodation. Leave in the evening and arrive early in the morning. Sleeping on a train in a two person compartment is actually pretty comfortable. The network is growing again after almost all connections were abandoned (Trenitalia, SBB, DB...). Austria's ÖBB is actually offering the most connections of any European train operators.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/dam/jcr:6a8 ... z-2020.pdf


I only traveled once by night train, from Warsaw to Kosice. It was horrible. Dirty, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable. .
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:06 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


Flights inside Austria,to GRZ,KLU,SZG and to BUD,PRG could certainly be replaced with trains..I dont know for sure about the VIE-INN line..Also what is the usual travel time by train on the VIE-LJU? Not all countries support a good and fast rail network so they should be careful with their decision...I once did GRZ-Maribor-Venice by train and it took me more than 15h with constant changes..Distance is only about 300km but no direct trains and a lot of changes in Slovenia and Italy..Better if i had gone to VIE to fly


I don't think VIE-LJU will be an issue for anyone since no one is flying the route since Adria went bankrupt. Austrian Airlines already said they are not interested and that they would rather focus on Graz. Now, if Graz goes away... who knows.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:12 pm

GLANKG wrote:
Those flights won't all go away, but surely less frequency, business travellers won't be too bothered with 30 EUR extra.
Personally I hope there would be high speed rail between Vienna - Prague (- Berlin) and Vienna - Budapest in the future.

Prague - Berlin is currently being upgraded to 200 km/h (partially up to 350 km/h) with a planned completion date of 2033-2035. This would reduce the travel time between those cities to ~2:30h. Now all you need is a high-speed line Vienna - Prague and you could probably travel Vienna - Berlin in < 4 hours.
WildcatYXU wrote:
Losing a day on a train is not acceptable for a North American VFR traveler either. Time is at premium when we are over there.

As a long haul traveler you would probably connect at a different airport when heading for some nearby destinations like BTS or LNZ, LH will happily route you through their other hubs. However, the new regulations specifically take the ground travel time to/from Vienna airport into account so flights like VIE - LJU or VIE - ZAG can still be offered despite the short distance.

TBH I could even see the Austrian regions benefit from this regulation. The economic benefit of a flight to VIE is relatively low considering that alternative transportation can get you there almost as fast. But added capacity to destinations (hubs) further away like London, Frankfurt or Paris provides a unique additional service.
 
mileduets
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:18 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
mileduets wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:

Losing a day on a train is not acceptable for a North American VFR traveler either. Time is at premium when we are over there.


Stop thinking day travel. Take a night train and save on hotel accommodation. Leave in the evening and arrive early in the morning. Sleeping on a train in a two person compartment is actually pretty comfortable. The network is growing again after almost all connections were abandoned (Trenitalia, SBB, DB...). Austria's ÖBB is actually offering the most connections of any European train operators.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/dam/jcr:6a8 ... z-2020.pdf


I only traveled once by night train, from Warsaw to Kosice. It was horrible. Dirty, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable. .


I traveled several times Basel-Hamburg, Basel-Berlin, Basel-Cologne, Zürich-Vienna, Zürich-Rome. Practically all of them were much more enjoyable than my overnight long distance flights. That was mostly back in the 90-ies. Todays modern trains are supposedly much more comfortable.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:22 pm

GRZ/LNZ/SZG will have good connection with at least one LH hub, they just don't transfer via VIE anymore, in return LH guarantees VIE grow proportionately to FRA/MUC so they will have to make up capacity somewhere else, regional ports have good ÖBB service, cheaper, greener and not much longer, nobody really loses here.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Dreadful third world type idea. The employees of Austrian must be very well connected to have such ridiclous privledge and protection. The Austrian tax payer is being insulted and impovrished by this stupidity
 
Galwayman
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:29 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
armagnac2010 wrote:
Curious to see if it passes EU rules, setting a minimum price is generally not acceptable.

Also curious how Austrian customers will be able to redeem their Miles and More flights.

At this point, it is safe to say that the EU is dead, it is every nation for themselves now.


If the EU allows this nonsense its definitely corrupt

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