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Galwayman
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Dreadful third world type idea. The employees of Austrian must be very well connected to have such ridiclous privledge and protection. The Austrian tax payer is being insulted and impovrished by this stupidity
 
Galwayman
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:29 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
armagnac2010 wrote:
Curious to see if it passes EU rules, setting a minimum price is generally not acceptable.

Also curious how Austrian customers will be able to redeem their Miles and More flights.

At this point, it is safe to say that the EU is dead, it is every nation for themselves now.


If the EU allows this nonsense its definitely corrupt
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:47 pm

mileduets wrote:
Stop thinking day travel. Take a night train and save on hotel accommodation. Leave in the evening and arrive early in the morning. Sleeping on a train in a two person compartment is actually pretty comfortable. The network is growing again after almost all connections were abandoned (Trenitalia, SBB, DB...). Austria's ÖBB is actually offering the most connections of any European train operators.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/dam/jcr:6a8 ... z-2020.pdf


Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. ÖBB doesn't have any trains going east and why would anyone fly to VIE and then take a train back west? Might as well fly to MUC.

mxaxai wrote:
As a long haul traveler you would probably connect at a different airport when heading for some nearby destinations like BTS or LNZ, LH will happily route you through their other hubs. However, the new regulations specifically take the ground travel time to/from Vienna airport into account so flights like VIE - LJU or VIE - ZAG can still be offered despite the short distance.


As an AC FF I would most likely connect either at YYZ to AC898 or at YUL to OS74, arriving to VIE. If VIE - KSC is unaffected, I'm OK.

Dieuwer wrote:
I only traveled once by night train, from Warsaw to Kosice. It was horrible. Dirty, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable.


I don't think there is a train connection between Warsaw and Kosice at all now.
But the 2 x daily WAW-KSC flights make LO a viable alternative when traveling from YXU to KSC. Especially considering the reasonably priced J tickets.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
smartplane
Posts: 1562
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:49 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Seem to me they want a minimum amount of tax and fees to be paid no matter the base fare. It makes sense and may be necessary to maintain facilities fee revenues and general tax income to the country.

Also a recurring theme / suggestion at CORSIA workshops initially based on distance bands. The ultimate would be based on distance and the actual aircraft used. Austria is putting a stake in the ground.
 
mxaxai
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Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:53 pm

Some people have a very odd view of what the EU can and cannot do.
This regulation ultimately forbids carriers to sell tickets for less than 0 €. Similar anti-dumping regulations are common for many other products.


The only airlines affected are LCCs, who have a habit of luring customers in by giving away tickets at a loss and earning their profit through ancillary revenue. 99% of travellers will not be affected.
 
RvA
Posts: 445
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:54 pm

“The EU is dead”. Lol. Not sure what the big deal is here.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:19 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Dreadful third world type idea. The employees of Austrian must be very well connected to have such ridiclous privledge and protection. The Austrian tax payer is being insulted and impovrished by this stupidity


Aye AUA is most certainly well connected in Austria, and the way how MOL conduct business can't be too well received either (threats rather than good will engaging is almost like hard brexiteers sometimes), but it really isn't outrageous to forbid selling tickets below the cost of tax and fees, we've seen similar anti-dump measures in many industries.

As for new flight tax of 12 EUR/30 EUR, come on too many countries have similar tax already in place, Swedes didn't stop going on holidays, they just use trains more. Even the UK APD has officially stated one of the benefits is to offset the environmental impact of air travel. We all know what that means for DUB boom but hey even the devolved Scottish government cannot drop it (ironically in that case FR quits GLA and blame APD sorely).
 
usa330300
Posts: 70
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:42 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Seem to me they want a minimum amount of tax and fees to be paid no matter the base fare. It makes sense and may be necessary to maintain facilities fee revenues and general tax income to the country.

What should concern all of us is this is a hard right to Socialism. Not good for society as a whole as where does it end with government interference.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:19 am

Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


Absolutely disagree. A 'legacy' airline offers no more of transportation infrastructure than any other airline, inc LCC's. In fact, if I want to fly between secondary cities then I find it much easier on LCC's!
 
Sokes
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:23 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Anti-dumping regulation aside, Austria introduced a 12 EUR flight tax immediately, and a 30 EUR tax for short flights.
AUA flies around 150 weekly flights to destinations within 350 km,
GRZ
SZG
KLU
PRG
BUD
KSC
KRK
ZAG
If OS drops many of those flights in favour of trains as they currently do with LNZ - VIE on ÖBB, with the Lufthansa guarantee of VIE grows in line with FRA/MUC, unless FRA/MUC drops routes, OS will have to add capacity somewhere else.


350 km by road or air distance?


According to post # 18 by air. Dropping some of these flights in favour of trains would be idiotic. There is no reasonable railway connection between VIE and KRK. Railway connection to KSC (which is by the way 351km from VIE according to gcmap) sucks as well. If somebody thinks that I'll be traveling another 8 hours by train and changing trains twice after spending a night flying, he's out of his mind. And I'm off to fly LO.

The 350 km criteria is made up. The link of the OP says
"So soll die AUA künftig Kurzstreckenflüge auf die Bahn verlagern, sofern eine adäquate Infrastruktur bereitsteht und eine direkte Erreichbarkeit deutlich unter drei Stunden nach Wien Flughafen sichergestellt ist. "
https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... e-branche/

= "In future short flights should be transfered to rail, provided there is adequate infrastructure and a direct connection from Vienna airport significantly below three hours is assured"
I believe that word "significantly" doesn't fit.


Night trains are a good idea.

Image
source: https://www.zugreiseblog.de/nightjet-sc ... iegewagen/

Image
source: https://www.polrail.com/en/warsaw-vienna-train-travel

Here a map from night trains from Austria and their routing.
https://www.nightjet.com/en/dam/jcr:6a8 ... z-2020.pdf
Vienna to Berlin is via Poland, not Prague, and takes 12 hours. It's obviously for people who think the journey is the destination, but I would love it.

I believe at night the tracks belong to goods transport. In Germany the train would have to travel at 90-120 km/ h. I guess the limited time/ day forces the railway to drive goods unnecessary fast. Vienna to Hamburg should be all good tracks. On the highway it's nearly 1000 km and the night train takes 12 hours, 37 minutes, so average speed seems to be less.
Last edited by Sokes on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Vicenza
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:24 am

armagnac2010 wrote:
Curious to see if it passes EU rules, setting a minimum price is generally not acceptable.

Also curious how Austrian customers will be able to redeem their Miles and More flights.


Setting a minimum price, and selling 'below cost' are two very different things. This forum screamed blue murder when the likes of Ryanair were selling fares below the level of taxes and fees......so, what's the difference now, and why are many of you now supporting it?
 
Sokes
Posts: 2133
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:33 am

Vicenza wrote:
Setting a minimum price, and selling 'below cost' are two very different things. This forum screamed blue murder when the likes of Ryanair were selling fares below the level of taxes and fees......so, what's the difference now, and why are many of you now supporting it?

The answer to the second part of your question is already in the thread.
Dieuwer wrote:
Full blown Marxist behavior.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Varsity1
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:54 am

Vicenza wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


Absolutely disagree. A 'legacy' airline offers no more of transportation infrastructure than any other airline, inc LCC's. In fact, if I want to fly between secondary cities then I find it much easier on LCC's!


That makes no sense, you can't connect on most LCC's.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:03 am

The EU will probably do nothing against it, because they will claim it is meant to reduce emissions.
 
Blerg
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:23 am

For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:39 am

It was a huge mistake to use government money to keep the LH group alive. the market should have been left to fend for itself.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 738
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:40 am

Blerg wrote:
For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


Especially when LX next door is also very profitable. Before a lot of money is poured into OS, LX will get a WB fleet renewal.
 
lowwkjax
Topic Author
Posts: 47
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:19 am

Blerg wrote:
For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


As long as LH only uses OS to keep IAG and others from setting foot in the DACH-market while pushing transfers through MUC and - remember - THEIR Terminal there, OS and VIE will be kept on a leash. Wait, what was the reason again that UA didn’t start VIE on their own metal? Oh I remember - LH voting against it so they can route pax through FRA and MUC on their own planes...

The market is there and the fact that both non-Star-carriers (KE and others) as well as LCC have flooded VIE recently proves that. This wouldn’t have been possible the same way with a strong OS brand and big(ger) OS-hub. Others are only coming to pick up what isn’t being taken care of. But at the same time LH keeps telling OS that they need to be more profitable in order to get newer planes, while preventing UA and others from starting VIE and sending transfer pax for OS there (and partly freeing up OS metal for other destinations, increasing income..).

There’s more to this than most of us know and Austria tends to protect “my Austrian”, and LH obviously isn’t going to say no to free cash (remember the 500 Mio. Euros that LH was basically given when they took over OS?).
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 am

usa330300 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Seem to me they want a minimum amount of tax and fees to be paid no matter the base fare. It makes sense and may be necessary to maintain facilities fee revenues and general tax income to the country.

What should concern all of us is this is a hard right to Socialism. Not good for society as a whole as where does it end with government interference.

To be fair government interventions are everywhere the now, US3/AF-KL/LHG all got life line injection from their governments, and I don't think they are all free money without any conditions made by the Governments.
Anti-dump doesn't make it socialism, didn't very right wing Trump want AD tariff on C Series?
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:40 am

Blerg wrote:
For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


It would be funny if Austrian government hands over 450 million and not asking for safeguards that taxpayers money will be spent in their view what's beneficial for Austria. For me it's amusing that you'd pop up at every chance to have a go at OS, perhaps you could start a thread for that purpose. MUC/FRA/ZRH are all profitable, yet LH/LX asked for even more cash to survive, and when government is involved you do realise it's no longer just about profitability but also jobs and many other aspects come into play.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:58 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Blerg wrote:
For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


Especially when LX next door is also very profitable. Before a lot of money is poured into OS, LX will get a WB fleet renewal.


Not to mention that there is LO on the other side which is also in expansion mode. There are also no signs of them giving up on their BUD hub. Maybe the Austrian government has realized how much other governments are supporting their airlines, mostly to the detriment of OS.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:04 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
For me the funniest part of all this is that the Austrian government expect LH Group to expand VIE at the same rate as FRA and MUC. What planet are they on? Austrian Airlines is struggling financially and its home market is currently under attack by the LCCs. Not to mention that Wizz Air just announced a new round of destinations from VIE while Ryanair is not going to kill the Lauda brand. So what makes them think that OS will miraculously reach profitability and become a stable business?

Lufthansa's operations in Munich and Frankfurt are extremely profitable for the airline so expanding those hubs makes sense. Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


It would be funny if Austrian government hands over 450 million and not asking for safeguards that taxpayers money will be spent in their view what's beneficial for Austria. For me it's amusing that you'd pop up at every chance to have a go at OS, perhaps you could start a thread for that purpose. MUC/FRA/ZRH are all profitable, yet LH/LX asked for even more cash to survive, and when government is involved you do realise it's no longer just about profitability but also jobs and many other aspects come into play.


It's also funny how you also show up to defend a decaying business which has little prospects at becoming profitable. Those are facts, I am sorry if they hurt you.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:13 am

Blerg wrote:
It's also funny how you also show up to defend a decaying business which has little prospects at becoming profitable. Those are facts, I am sorry if they hurt you.


Where did I defend OS in this thread? I defend anti-dump policy and discussed what routes could be impacted by new tax. How would OS fare post Covid, well they might do well, they might do worse, I have no idea.

Your facts of LO expanding or BUD hub building have nothing to do with this thread where people are talking about the new law. And 'facts' of OS is a decaying business is merely an informed opinion at best. It seems you cannot get over the FACT that Austria saved OS and LH agreed to guarantee VIE hub.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:16 am

Austria's decision to provide aid to OS in return for strict new 'green' regulations, is the new normal in Europe and the wider world.
Sweden, France, The Netherlands, Austria and the UK are all going down this route and more nations will follow as ICAO progresses with Corsia.

As governments must meet the Paris Climate Agreement, there is only limited space for the 'below true cost pricing' offered by the likes of Wizzair, Ryanair, Laudamotion.

Aviation enthusiasts and particularly some old-school, "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE can we have UNLIMITED air transport GROWTH' A.nutters, better get used to it.

ICAO (Corsia) and particularly the EU are very likely to adopt several more stringent green measure restricting the 'unbridled' growth of air transport.


https://www.icao.int/environmental-prot ... fault.aspx
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:17 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
It's also funny how you also show up to defend a decaying business which has little prospects at becoming profitable. Those are facts, I am sorry if they hurt you.


Where did I defend OS in this thread? I defend anti-dump policy and discussed what routes could be impacted by new tax. How would OS fare post Covid, well they might do well, they might do worse, I have no idea.

Your facts of LO expanding or BUD hub building have nothing to do with this thread where people are talking about the new law. And 'facts' of OS is a decaying business is merely an informed opinion at best. It seems you cannot get over the FACT that Austria saved OS and LH agreed to guarantee VIE hub.


I said that each time there is a critical comment of OS you show up there to defend them. LO in BUD (or WAW) is very much related to this thread because it will impact the future of OS, look at the wider picture buddy.

And how exactly isn't OS a decaying business? Look at their financial results and you will see what I am talking about.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:32 am

Blerg wrote:
I said that each time there is a critical comment of OS you show up there to defend them. LO in BUD (or WAW) is very much related to this thread because it will impact the future of OS, look at the wider picture buddy.

And how exactly isn't OS a decaying business? Look at their financial results and you will see what I am talking about.


You could read Lauda's book and try to be more balanced.

It's really pointless to talk about BUD/WAW hub, OS has only limited long haul flying and is mainly supported by local traffic. Real money making routes like FRA/LHR simply will not be threatened by LO because they are not based in Vienna. If you have to talk about other EU hubs, it's actually good news for OS that they will not be lagging behind FRA/MUC/ZRH further, they could at least maintain current market share within LHG, which is at the heart of DACH business.

Now can we go back to the topic of the thread?
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:47 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I said that each time there is a critical comment of OS you show up there to defend them. LO in BUD (or WAW) is very much related to this thread because it will impact the future of OS, look at the wider picture buddy.

And how exactly isn't OS a decaying business? Look at their financial results and you will see what I am talking about.


You could read Lauda's book and try to be more balanced.

It's really pointless to talk about BUD/WAW hub, OS has only limited long haul flying and is mainly supported by local traffic. Real money making routes like FRA/LHR simply will not be threatened by LO because they are not based in Vienna. If you have to talk about other EU hubs, it's actually good news for OS that they will not be lagging behind FRA/MUC/ZRH further, they could at least maintain current market share within LHG, which is at the heart of DACH business.

Now can we go back to the topic of the thread?


OS' network mostly relies on transfers from eastern and south-eastern Europe, a market in which LO has considerably expanded over the past few years creating additional competition for OS and VIE. It also doesn't help that OS is shrinking its long-haul fleet so we will have to see what is resumed in the coming months. As for keeping up, I'll believe it when I see it. I highly doubt that LHG will introduce turbo expansion so that Kurz and his government can feel good about themselves. That will only increase losses at OS. What we will most likely see is the current network size kept, without further shrinking.

Yes, we can go back to the topic.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:07 am

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I said that each time there is a critical comment of OS you show up there to defend them. LO in BUD (or WAW) is very much related to this thread because it will impact the future of OS, look at the wider picture buddy.

And how exactly isn't OS a decaying business? Look at their financial results and you will see what I am talking about.


You could read Lauda's book and try to be more balanced.

It's really pointless to talk about BUD/WAW hub, OS has only limited long haul flying and is mainly supported by local traffic. Real money making routes like FRA/LHR simply will not be threatened by LO because they are not based in Vienna. If you have to talk about other EU hubs, it's actually good news for OS that they will not be lagging behind FRA/MUC/ZRH further, they could at least maintain current market share within LHG, which is at the heart of DACH business.

Now can we go back to the topic of the thread?


OS' network mostly relies on transfers from eastern and south-eastern Europe, a market in which LO has considerably expanded over the past few years creating additional competition for OS and VIE. It also doesn't help that OS is shrinking its long-haul fleet so we will have to see what is resumed in the coming months. As for keeping up, I'll believe it when I see it. I highly doubt that LHG will introduce turbo expansion so that Kurz and his government can feel good about themselves. That will only increase losses at OS. What we will most likely see is the current network size kept, without further shrinking.

Yes, we can go back to the topic.


OS and VIE do have a relatively large eastern Europe flying, but western flying is still the absolute majority, be it yields or volume.
In 2019 VIE top 20 destinations includes just one eastern Europe route - Bucharest.

FRA 1.1 million, TXL 966k, CDG 944k, AMS 943k, ZRH 940k, LHR 833k, DUS 771k, HAM 720k, BCN 640k, OTP 634k
TLV 596k, MAD 564k, FCO 558k, STR 556k, MUC 531k, PMI 479k, CPH 455k, BRU 454k, MXP 447k, DXB 415k
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_In ... #Passenger (you can also find top 25 long haul routes numbers here)

P.S. Keeping VIE growing in line with FRA/MUC is written in the agreement, there is 150 million penalty otherwise.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:02 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:

You could read Lauda's book and try to be more balanced.

It's really pointless to talk about BUD/WAW hub, OS has only limited long haul flying and is mainly supported by local traffic. Real money making routes like FRA/LHR simply will not be threatened by LO because they are not based in Vienna. If you have to talk about other EU hubs, it's actually good news for OS that they will not be lagging behind FRA/MUC/ZRH further, they could at least maintain current market share within LHG, which is at the heart of DACH business.

Now can we go back to the topic of the thread?


OS' network mostly relies on transfers from eastern and south-eastern Europe, a market in which LO has considerably expanded over the past few years creating additional competition for OS and VIE. It also doesn't help that OS is shrinking its long-haul fleet so we will have to see what is resumed in the coming months. As for keeping up, I'll believe it when I see it. I highly doubt that LHG will introduce turbo expansion so that Kurz and his government can feel good about themselves. That will only increase losses at OS. What we will most likely see is the current network size kept, without further shrinking.

Yes, we can go back to the topic.


OS and VIE do have a relatively large eastern Europe flying, but western flying is still the absolute majority, be it yields or volume.
In 2019 VIE top 20 destinations includes just one eastern Europe route - Bucharest.

FRA 1.1 million, TXL 966k, CDG 944k, AMS 943k, ZRH 940k, LHR 833k, DUS 771k, HAM 720k, BCN 640k, OTP 634k
TLV 596k, MAD 564k, FCO 558k, STR 556k, MUC 531k, PMI 479k, CPH 455k, BRU 454k, MXP 447k, DXB 415k
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_In ... #Passenger (you can also find top 25 long haul routes numbers here)

P.S. Keeping VIE growing in line with FRA/MUC is written in the agreement, there is 150 million penalty otherwise.


You do realize that transfer passengers don't stay in Vienna, they continue their journey and a lot of them end up flying from Vienna to all those western European destinations you listed. Without these transfers one has to wonder how much lower those numbers would be. As for penalties, unless they clearly defined what are the parameters they will be following while keeping up then LHG could come up with all sorts of excuses to justify their actions.
 
SueD
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:12 am

Galwayman wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
armagnac2010 wrote:
Curious to see if it passes EU rules, setting a minimum price is generally not acceptable.

Also curious how Austrian customers will be able to redeem their Miles and More flights.

At this point, it is safe to say that the EU is dead, it is every nation for themselves now.


If the EU allows this nonsense its definitely corrupt


Your usual EU bashing then !

Domestic taxation rules are national sovereign decisions within each of the individual states - Always have been.
Only proviso they shouldn’t be discriminating.

VAT other duties and general taxes vary widely right across the EU.
 
GLANKG
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:40 am

Blerg wrote:
You do realize that transfer passengers don't stay in Vienna, they continue their journey and a lot of them end up flying from Vienna to all those western European destinations you listed. Without these transfers one has to wonder how much lower those numbers would be. As for penalties, unless they clearly defined what are the parameters they will be following while keeping up then LHG could come up with all sorts of excuses to justify their actions.


Transfer passengers in VIE counts for about 22%, much lower than ZRH/MUC/FRA.
Passengers number to/ from west Europe is 4 times of east Europe.
LO/BUD can't hurt OS as much as you thought because they can't take away more premium local passengers, OS business is based on local traffic, east Europe transfers is a niche, not core, yield not great either.

And yes there are clear parameters, similar to what ZRH got from LHG.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:53 am

Not sure about this. Maybe if they add €5 - €10 max to the cheap tickets as an extra tax. I would be fine with it. But once you set the minimum prices for the actual tickets. Then it's not gonna work out.
 
SQ325
Posts: 1305
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:54 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:14 am

In general I think this is a good move.
It s ridiculous that a Train ticket to your next city is more expensive than a flight from Germany to Mallorca.
First it is an environmental decision and second will make the life harder for Carriers like WIZZ and Ryanair with their strange concepts of employment.
Biggest fault of the EU in my eyes to allow LCC their way of employment, this should be corrected ASAP.
 
Toinou
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:16 am

ewt340 wrote:
Not sure about this. Maybe if they add €5 - €10 max to the cheap tickets as an extra tax. I would be fine with it. But once you set the minimum prices for the actual tickets. Then it's not gonna work out.


Once again, the question is not exactly how you put it.
Generally speaking, has not a complete ban on selling at a loss, and this is difficult to assess in the case of a service, which air transport is.

Here, the question is that in Austria, like in any country, there is a number of fixed (and this is important) taxes that are to be paid when you buy a plane ticket. Austria decided that the airline cannot bill less than this amount. So, as I understand it, airlines can sell with zero revenue (not even profit), just matching the tax price. I'm pretty sure that there is no ruling about such a case, but it would be interesting.

It is absolutely not setting a price. It is just saying that the tax has to be paid by the customer.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:21 am

ewt340 wrote:
Not sure about this. Maybe if they add €5 - €10 max to the cheap tickets as an extra tax. I would be fine with it. But once you set the minimum prices for the actual tickets. Then it's not gonna work out.


The greens phrased it as “minimum price”, while they actually Want to forbid negative prices.

Additionally they announced (already early this year) to increase APD to 12€ (for all flight distances, currently short haul is lower (3.5€)).

For example VIE-MXP, there are a lot of returns for 25€ available. However taxes/fees alone are ~50€. So the Airline loses 25€ just for the taxes. Even if they sell a bulk load of ancillaries they are a far cry from breaking even.

There have been calls, forcing all airlines to show fare calculation (separate ticket price and taxes), as taxes are refundable. If they would enforce this more with LCCs, they wouldn’t need to regulate the negative prices now.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:25 am

GLANKG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
You do realize that transfer passengers don't stay in Vienna, they continue their journey and a lot of them end up flying from Vienna to all those western European destinations you listed. Without these transfers one has to wonder how much lower those numbers would be. As for penalties, unless they clearly defined what are the parameters they will be following while keeping up then LHG could come up with all sorts of excuses to justify their actions.


Transfer passengers in VIE counts for about 22%, much lower than ZRH/MUC/FRA.
Passengers number to/ from west Europe is 4 times of east Europe.
LO/BUD can't hurt OS as much as you thought because they can't take away more premium local passengers, OS business is based on local traffic, east Europe transfers is a niche, not core, yield not great either.

And yes there are clear parameters, similar to what ZRH got from LHG.


LO and BUD can affect those 22% which is not negligible, it's almost a quarter of all traffic. For Austrian Airlines those transfers matter because they help them fill some seats in markets where they face fierce competition from LCCs. I can only imagine how happy OS management was to find out Wizz Air is launching Bucharest and Brussels, two very important markets for them. You make it sound as if nothing matters as nothing can negatively impact Austrian Airlines.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5246
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Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:17 am

Varsity1 wrote:
LCC's killing the legacies off is a long term problem. The legacies provide a transportation infrastructure that is vital to the country and economy. If I need to travel between two secondary cities in Europe, it quickly becomes impossible on LCC air service alone.


Then these airlines should have remained state owned. These carriers all wanted to be privatized and run for profit. If this is going to be the result then these carrier should return to State ownership as they were before. These investors want the best of both worlds and you can't have it that way. If Austrian can't compete under Lufthansa's ownership that let it die. That's how the free market works.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8495
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:29 am

Sokes wrote:
The 350 km criteria is made up.


If it's made up, Reuters made it up with respect to the new surcharge, not minimum ticket price.

If you have a better source - like the decree or legislation directly - please share.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:30 am

I don't think Govt in many countries even want to be owning an airline
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:53 am

DUSZRH wrote:
For example VIE-MXP, there are a lot of returns for 25€ available. However taxes/fees alone are ~50€. So the Airline loses 25€ just for the taxes. Even if they sell a bulk load of ancillaries they are a far cry from breaking even.

Ancillary revenues can be up to 50% of a LCC's overall revenue. On individual tickets it can be even more than that. Don't underestimate the willingness of people to pay money for addons to 'free' services.

Example with Ryanair:

Return ticket -25 EUR + 50 EUR taxes
Checked bags 50 EUR
Seat reservation 6 EUR
Drinks on board 10 EUR
Snack on board 12 EUR

Overall revenue 53 EUR for a rock-bottom fare return flight.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:17 pm

78 EUR per person for a round trip in ancillaries might happen for a small number of customers - but I suspect that's very much at the high end of the scale. I suspect that somewhere around 35 or 40 EUR per round trip flight is closer to the average
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:51 pm

Austrian is the new Sabena? Both bankrupt and gone?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:16 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
78 EUR per person for a round trip in ancillaries might happen for a small number of customers - but I suspect that's very much at the high end of the scale. I suspect that somewhere around 35 or 40 EUR per round trip flight is closer to the average

On average, perhaps. But I don't think 50-70 EUR in ancillaries are that unusual.
One checked bag is already 50 EUR per round trip. Sure, some people are okay with just a backpack (free) or a large carry-on luggage (24 EUR) but if you're a family with kids going on vacation you will need checked bags, as well as an obligatory reservation.

The average Ryanair ticket is sold at a loss, with a price of 37 EUR. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesasqui ... the-world/
The average ancillary revenue per ticket is 19 EUR, or 38 EUR per roundtrip. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.4072333
 
Blerg
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:27 pm

According to this link, these are the long-haul destinations Austrian Airlines will be resuming in July.

Vienna – Bangkok 2 weekly 767-300ER
Vienna – Chicago O’Hare 3 weekly 767-300ER
Vienna – Newark 2 weekly 767-300ER
Vienna – Washington Dulles 2 weekly 767-300ER

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-08jun20/

If I am not wrong, missing are: JFK, YUL, LAX, CPT, HKG, PEK, MRU (?)
 
Sokes
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
The 350 km criteria is made up.


If it's made up, Reuters made it up with respect to the new surcharge, not minimum ticket price.

If you have a better source - like the decree or legislation directly - please share.

My apologies, I somehow missed that information.
post 18: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23F1EN
However I referred to the comment of WildcatYXU that flights till 350 km will be dropped:

Sokes wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Blerg wrote:

350 km by road or air distance?


According to post # 18 by air. Dropping some of these flights in favour of trains would be idiotic. There is no reasonable railway connection between VIE and KRK. Railway connection to KSC (which is by the way 351km from VIE according to gcmap) sucks as well. If somebody thinks that I'll be traveling another 8 hours by train and changing trains twice after spending a night flying, he's out of his mind. And I'm off to fly LO.

The 350 km criteria is made up.
...

Will flights will be dropped if the train takes eight hours, just because there is extra tax? There may be reduced frequency. The criteria for dropping city pairs is three hours rail travel from Vienna airport railway station.
But agreed, I was wrong. There is a 350 km criteria.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:08 pm

Budapest to Vienna airport rail station takes over 3 hours. Places like Prague, Poland, Croatia or Slovenia take significantly more
It is remarkable that VIE-MUC is 359 km, or just over 350 km. This therefore means that Austrian can continue to fly to Munich without breaching any rules
Furthermore, the train from Vienna airport to Graz city centre takes exactly 3h00 - not sure if this is categorised as "continue as normal" or "must be taxed heavily". I think the rule applies only to routes with a train to VIE *under* 3 hours, so Vienna-Graz would not be affected for now. And I imagine OBB, the Austrain train company will not choose to make the VIE-Graz timetable faster until 2027 when the Semmering Base Tunnel opens - cutting VIE-Graz to about 2h30

If I was not so cynical, I would say the 350 km and 3h00 rules have been chosen very precisely with specific routes in mind... namely that VIE-Salzburg may end up being the only route to lose air service
The fact that Salzburg has a direct train every hour to Vienna airport (and thus LH/OS would perhaps prefer passengers to go by train and not to have to Q400s on this route - which are all due to be sent to the scrapper in 2021) is of course purely coincidental

Or - to be more blunt - this is a load of green-wash to make the Austrian Govt look good in public, while enforcing in law the plans that LH/OS had wanted to put in place anyway
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:27 pm, edited 7 times in total.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:13 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The proposed law makes absolute sense, unless you subscribe to the deeply anti-social thought that carriers should be allowed to sell seats below cost, in order to drive out the incumbent carrier at an airport. I'm sorry, but that only makes sense if you're the CEO of socially irresponsible companies such as Ryanair and Wizz, who doesn't give a flying so-and-so about their employees, their suppliers or the society that enables them to have a business in the first place.

The proposed law says that if the total taxes are e.g. 40EUR, you can't offer a ticket for sale at 39EUR inclusive of taxes. Please tell me what's wrong with that idea.


I was ready to be outraged when I saw the thread title but when I read what the law actually is, I was shocked that airlines have been selling tickets with essentially negative fares. Even US airlines don't do that.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:40 pm

mileduets wrote:
Take a night train and save on hotel accommodation. Leave in the evening and arrive early in the morning. Sleeping on a train in a two person compartment is actually pretty comfortable.


I took a night train from Frankfurt Flughafen to Vienna last year. It was OK, but (1) I wasn't time-constrained (I wanted to see Bratislava, as a leisure traveller, after 8 WEEKS in Europe on business), and (2) I wouldn't exactly describe it as restful to sleep in a chair, regardless of how well-padded, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go to a business meeting right after arriving in Vienna. IIRC, the cost of an actual bed on the train, as opposed to a seat, was exhorbitant.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:49 pm

Blerg wrote:
Vienna on the other hand... OS reminds me a bit of Iznogoud. I want to be Lufthansa in stead of Lufthansa.


Re-phrase in plain German, please?
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 999
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Austria to introduce minimum price for plane tickets

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:12 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
This will benefit Bratislava. LH might not want to continue with the OS brand. And people will not want to travel to Vienna for a weekend getaway.

People will not want to travel to Vienna, because the air fare has a minimum price of 40,00 EUR? What kind of people are we talking about? Poor people or budget conscious people? I think Vienna would do perfectly fine without those people.

From Amsterdam, the airport I used to fly out before the corona problems, Austrian and KLM usually offer 109,00 EUR return tickets to Vienna. I would happily pay these fares instead of looking for cheaper tickets on LCC's.

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