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Jetport
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France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:45 pm

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/france-b ... 48673.html

Surprised no one has started this thread. Merge if I missed it.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:48 pm

The main goal of the investment would be a carbon-neutral successor to the A320, Europe's best-selling jet, with hydrogen as an energy source instead of today's oil-based gas turbines. "Our target is to have a carbon-neutral airplane in 2035 instead of 2050, thanks especially to an (ultra-efficient) engine using hydrogen," Le Maire said.


Hindenburg 2.0
 
cpd
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:12 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
The main goal of the investment would be a carbon-neutral successor to the A320, Europe's best-selling jet, with hydrogen as an energy source instead of today's oil-based gas turbines. "Our target is to have a carbon-neutral airplane in 2035 instead of 2050, thanks especially to an (ultra-efficient) engine using hydrogen," Le Maire said.


Hindenburg 2.0


Uh, maybe you rephrase that to 4.0, the Russians had a TU-154 running on cryogenic fuels, then as a 3.0 NASA is backing a research project for similar.

All sounds a bit vague to me, probably the result will be an improved version of what we have now.

Edit: even Boeing is in on the hydrogen idea:

https://www.boeing.com/features/2015/02 ... 24-15.page

So maybe it is a Hindenburg 5.0?
Last edited by cpd on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:15 pm

Wow, it has been 25+ years since I worked hydrogen proposals for aircraft. To be blunt, the technology hasn't moved enough forward for a large team.

The only way is large fuel cells powering electric motors turning ducted fan (for over 750nm) or propellers (for Turboprop replacement).

I wish them well, but hydrogen is such a low energy density fuel, there is a huge challenge ahead.

With the global #3 economy (if EU is one economy) not subject to CO2 limits... is this the best investment?

Lightsaber
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kyu
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:18 pm

So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:33 pm

kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.


Reminds the Concorde saga
 
Noshow
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:40 pm

After the A380 they cannot afford the next illusion it seems.
The A350 was the right thing to do. This should be the base for the next narrow body. Like Boeing should have used the 787 as the model for the 737 follow on family.
Better let again the military sort out the radical technology changes first.
 
mxaxai
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:01 pm

kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.

The German and Spanish governments will do their best to support this plan. This is exactly in line with their own goals.

The Government is simply giving Airbus (and suppliers) money to conduct fundamental research on new, promising technologies. Hydrogen is just one aspect. Other projects aim for even more lightweight construction methods, improved manufacturing techniques, future operational concepts and other measures that provide a long-term improvement to the industry. Nobody is 'dictating Airbus which planes to develop'.



Also, half of the 15 billion € are already allocated to Air France as part of their recent bailout.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:05 pm

Flightglobal picked up the story too.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 53.article


kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop? Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?

Since companies began asking governments for funding to develop new technology :?:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Kilopond
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
[...]I wish them well, but [...]


... the crappy texts do not really say what it is all about: namely, operating hydrogen-based fuel cells with H2 tanks at a pressure of 700 bar which means the energy density is quite high. The pressure is expected to rise even higher to well over 1,000 atmospheres in the future.

At filling stations, 700 bar H2 has come down to € 9.50 per kg from € 14.00 within a few months.

https://h2.live/en
 
Dieuwer
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:40 pm

Kilopond wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
[...]I wish them well, but [...]


... the crappy texts do not really say what it is all about: namely, operating hydrogen-based fuel cells with H2 tanks at a pressure of 700 bar which means the energy density is quite high. The pressure is expected to rise even higher to well over 1,000 atmospheres in the future.

At filling stations, 700 bar H2 has come down to € 9.50 per kg from € 14.00 within a few months.

https://h2.live/en


aka a flying bomb.
I already have a number for the Airbus: A666. Sign of the Beast.
 
DFW17L
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:59 pm

Euro job program to keep highly-skilled personnel employed? Not a criticism.
 
kaitak744
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:04 pm

OH relax...... a plane not running on fossil fuels is inevitable. Can't hurt to push for its development. May end up not being hydrogen, but the R&D can still be applied to other things.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:02 am

Dieuwer wrote:
aka a flying bomb.

How's that different than a metal tube, carrying dozens of tons of JetA, moving at 500mph+......?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:09 am

Hydrogen is not a fuel, but rather an energy vector. Associated with a fuel cell, it may well be the future of electric propulsion, instead of heavy batteries. Provided it is produced in an eco-friendly manner (which is a challenge), hydrogen is full of promise.

Hindenburg used hydrogen for its low weight, in gaseous state. Indeed, liquid hydrogen is much safer to store than kerosene. Remember TWA800?

The French initiative does not come out of the blue. It is in line with the CleanSky EU research program.

http://www.cleansky.eu

The challenge is real. IMOO, unlikely to see a long range widebody using something else than kerosene, i.e/. jet A/A1. Which BTW we should stop calling it fossil fuel, there are very credible development on synthetic fuels. But we might see short range airplanes using hydrogen in the not too distant future.
 
luckyone
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:44 am

armagnac2010 wrote:
Hindenburg used hydrogen for its low weight, in gaseous state. Indeed, liquid hydrogen is much safer to store than kerosene. Remember TWA800?

Well, let’s compare how many 747s that weren’t operated by failing carriers with frayed wiring blew out of the sky. And then let’s remember the Hindenburg. The “n” doesn’t work in favor of hydrogen gas. Hindenburg also used hydrogen because the US wouldn’t sell helium to the German government of the day for a project that could become military in nature—can’t imagine why.

Let’s also consider the physical properties of H2 (assuming they’re haven’t figured out a way to extract hydrogen from another source or use non-elemental hydrogen). It boils at about -250C or 33K—a lot easier than kerosene. In order to stop that from happening you have to have a heavy and complex cooling operation or pressurize it to over 300 atmospheres. Have fun lifting that to 35,000ft.
 
kyu
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:36 am

mxaxai wrote:
kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.

The German and Spanish governments will do their best to support this plan. This is exactly in line with their own goals.

The Government is simply giving Airbus (and suppliers) money to conduct fundamental research on new, promising technologies. Hydrogen is just one aspect. Other projects aim for even more lightweight construction methods, improved manufacturing techniques, future operational concepts and other measures that provide a long-term improvement to the industry. Nobody is 'dictating Airbus which planes to develop'.



Devilfish wrote:
kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop? Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?

Since companies began asking governments for funding to develop new technology :?:


My excuses. I had read a German article that stated that in exchange for the funding, Airbus was obliged to do the following:
- Bring to market an A320 successor between 2033 and 2035 that is 30% more fuel efficient, with a demonstrator aircraft fielded between 2026 and 2028
- Bring to market a hybrid-propulsion regional aircraft, either electric or based on Hydrogen, in the year 2030, with a demonstrator aircraft fielded in 2028.

Your perspective sounds more reasonable.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:58 am

I don't know who came up with this (not Le Maire as he's a literature guy, not an engineer), however H2 fuel might make sense for long haul aircraft, not short haul ones. Worse, they mentioned 500Km long flights, but at the same time are trying to ban such short flights !

For 500Km hybrid/electric is the way. But I'm not sure there is a market, outside island countries maybe.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:00 am

I think what matters is "carbon neutral". Let the smart people figure out the best way to do it. Might need 10 times more billions, though.

It may be that for aviation the best way is synfuel made from electricity, heat, water and atmospheric CO2, with H2 as an intermediary.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:18 am

This states that an objective of the funding is to support Airbus purchases from AF and the French state:

"The bailout will help push through Air France orders of new Airbus planes, while it also includes new defence spending by the government on Airbus military products."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... air-france
 
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lugie
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:53 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't know who came up with this (not Le Maire as he's a literature guy, not an engineer), however H2 fuel might make sense for long haul aircraft, not short haul ones. Worse, they mentioned 500Km long flights, but at the same time are trying to ban such short flights !

For 500Km hybrid/electric is the way. But I'm not sure there is a market, outside island countries maybe.


Well they are banning such short flights right now when they're operated by emission-intensive fossil fuelled jet engines.

I don't think that anybody would be opposed to flying even short distance if such flights were operated by entirely carbon-neutral and emission-free H2 planes.

Such a ban will likely be reversed if(when) this technology sees the light of the day and is applied by airlines on a significant scale.
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Aesma
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:58 am

Except carbon neutrality will be extremely hard to get, unless you have a lot of "free" energy to start with (nuclear fusion maybe, one day ?). Flying might become carbon neutral, but it will always be energy intensive. If there is a ground alternative, that will be less energy intensive.

I also wonder what role "flying pods" will take if we go for electric/H2 flight. The future might be to take off from your garden/roof/local parking and land at your destination up to 500Km away without involvement of mass transport at all. If such a vehicle can cost a couple millions and be very cheap maintenance wise (unlike an helicopter), then it will make inroads. You wouldn't own it of course, just pay for the flight.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
planecane
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:56 am

Aesma wrote:
I think what matters is "carbon neutral". Let the smart people figure out the best way to do it. Might need 10 times more billions, though.

It may be that for aviation the best way is synfuel made from electricity, heat, water and atmospheric CO2, with H2 as an intermediary.


Or to simply that idea, invest in a viable biofuel replacement for Jet-A. Biofuel can use the same engine technology. This has the benefit of making the existing fleet carbon neutral and not having to replace it.

Hydrogen isn't used on modern rocket engines and it is a "good" solution in rocketry.

What about all the energy needed to get H2 to liquid state and keep it there.

Also, while H2 would eliminate CO2 it would put out a lot more water vapor at high altitude, whether used in turbines or fuel cells. Not sure what impact that would have.
 
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enilria
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:44 pm

Jetport wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/france-bets-green-plane-package-131648673.html

Surprised no one has started this thread. Merge if I missed it.

Cue Boeing and USA trade lawsuits.

I'm sure France will still hate Emirates for their "subsidies". ROTFL
 
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scbriml
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:56 pm

enilria wrote:
Jetport wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/france-bets-green-plane-package-131648673.html

Surprised no one has started this thread. Merge if I missed it.

Cue Boeing and USA trade lawsuits.


People in glass houses....
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:11 pm

planecane wrote:

Also, while H2 would eliminate CO2 it would put out a lot more water vapor at high altitude, whether used in turbines or fuel cells. Not sure what impact that would have.


You sure about the water vapor at that it will be a lot more?

In general, jet fueled turbines already release a lot of water vapor as all the Hs from CXHY molecules (kerosene normally ranges from C9 to C16) will be burned to H2O.

From this article: https://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/GF/GF_Paper_DLRK_09-09-08.pdf

Hydrogen has an energy content of 122.8 MJ/kg and a density of 70.8 kg/m3 in liquid state.


A typical energy content for kerosene is 42.8 MJ/kg¸ its density lies between 775 kg/m3 and 840 kg/m3 at 15 °C


This leads to

The combustion of 1 kg of hydrogen produces 9 kg of water vapor [...]


The combustion of 1 kg of kerosene uses 3.4 kg of aerial oxygen and produces 3.15 kg of carbon dioxide (CO2), 1.25 kg of water vapor (H2O) [...]


Which leads to the following conclusion

Hence, compared to the energy content of 1 kg of kerosene, the combustion of an energy-equivalent amount of hydrogen generates only 3.24 kg of water vapor [...]


So this is roughly 2.6 times more water vapor.

The article states:

The hydrogen propeller variant consumes less energy than the kerosene aircraft in an order of 5 %, and it is more environmentally friendly due to its significantly lower emissions (no carbon dioxide, 90 % less nitrogen oxides, more water but no contrails). Of course, an overall environmental benefit is highly depending on the way the hydrogen is produced.


So for a bit more than double the water vapor you have 0 carbon dioxide and 90% less NOx.

So i do not think it is a lot more water, just more water.
 
mxaxai
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
It may be that for aviation the best way is synfuel made from electricity, heat, water and atmospheric CO2, with H2 as an intermediary.

Synthetic fuels are not really viable. Filtering atmospheric CO2 is a lot of work due to its low concentration. It'd be easier to distill ocean water and convert it to hydrogen. As of today, the cost for automotive fuels is staggered as: fossile < electricity < biofuels < hydrogen < synfuels.
FluidFlow wrote:
The article states:

The hydrogen propeller variant consumes less energy than the kerosene aircraft in an order of 5 %, and it is more environmentally friendly due to its significantly lower emissions (no carbon dioxide, 90 % less nitrogen oxides, more water but no contrails). Of course, an overall environmental benefit is highly depending on the way the hydrogen is produced.


So for a bit more than double the water vapor you have 0 carbon dioxide and 90% less NOx.

So i do not think it is a lot more water, just more water.

The study focuses on a propeller aircraft at lower altitudes (6-8 km), so 'no contrails' would not hold true once you get to typical jet cruising altitudes.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:36 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Aesma wrote:
It may be that for aviation the best way is synfuel made from electricity, heat, water and atmospheric CO2, with H2 as an intermediary.

Synthetic fuels are not really viable. Filtering atmospheric CO2 is a lot of work due to its low concentration. It'd be easier to distill ocean water and convert it to hydrogen. As of today, the cost for automotive fuels is staggered as: fossile < electricity < biofuels < hydrogen < synfuels.
FluidFlow wrote:
The article states:

The hydrogen propeller variant consumes less energy than the kerosene aircraft in an order of 5 %, and it is more environmentally friendly due to its significantly lower emissions (no carbon dioxide, 90 % less nitrogen oxides, more water but no contrails). Of course, an overall environmental benefit is highly depending on the way the hydrogen is produced.


So for a bit more than double the water vapor you have 0 carbon dioxide and 90% less NOx.

So i do not think it is a lot more water, just more water.

The study focuses on a propeller aircraft at lower altitudes (6-8 km), so 'no contrails' would not hold true once you get to typical jet cruising altitudes.


That is of course correct but as the fuel stays the same, the amount of water vapor will also stay the same in higher altitudes, but for regional flying this could be negated by reducing the allowed altitude of aircraft to below 8km (24'000 feet).

Moreover, in the special case of the here regarded regional aircraft, the water vapor emissions have a smaller climate impact than those of longer range aircraft due to the relatively low cruise altitude of less than 8 km. Contrails usually only form above this altitude


For Intra-European flights <500nm this altitude restrictions would increase fuel consummation to a certain extent (I would need an expert here to calculate the difference) but reduce the impact on climate almost totally as no CO2 and no contrails independent of the engine type. This of course is only viable if the H2 is produced environmentally friendly, eq. with renewable energy.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:59 pm

enilria wrote:
Jetport wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/france-bets-green-plane-package-131648673.html

Surprised no one has started this thread. Merge if I missed it.

Cue Boeing and USA trade lawsuits.



Funding basic research is fine. Airbus has run into trouble with 'specific' tech subsidy, certain export subsidies, non-market equity investment, loan forgiveness, and infrastructure grants. Boeing runs into trouble with industry-specific tax breaks (WA State) - now repealed.

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/di ... s316_e.htm
 
Jetport
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm

lugie wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't know who came up with this (not Le Maire as he's a literature guy, not an engineer), however H2 fuel might make sense for long haul aircraft, not short haul ones. Worse, they mentioned 500Km long flights, but at the same time are trying to ban such short flights !

For 500Km hybrid/electric is the way. But I'm not sure there is a market, outside island countries maybe.


Well they are banning such short flights right now when they're operated by emission-intensive fossil fuelled jet engines.

I don't think that anybody would be opposed to flying even short distance if such flights were operated by entirely carbon-neutral and emission-free H2 planes.

Such a ban will likely be reversed if(when) this technology sees the light of the day and is applied by airlines on a significant scale.


Electric, Hydrogen and Hybrid aircraft are just silly. The energy density/kg in usable systems for aircraft of hydrogen and/or batteries is just too low. Kerosene is much too energy dense/kg in a usable system for aircraft to replace with anything in the foreseeable future. If you want to make aviation carbon neutral, use offsets or sequestration, it will be much cheaper than hydrogen or electric aircraft. Banning short flights will also cost lives. Air transport is safer than rail and far safer than auto or bus transport.
 
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BobleBrave
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:03 am

Quoted this morning in Les Echos : Guillaume Faury says :

"The 2035 objective for a “zero emission” aircraft is perfectly realistic. This implies launching a program in 2027 or 2028, which means starting to prepare the program in 2025. This therefore leaves us five years to prepare the necessary technologies. These technologies already exist.."

It's not impossible they'd start with a small short haul aircraft and several technology are on the table, among which hydrogen, fuel cell or synthetic fuel.

His first estimations about development costs is of several tens of billions of dollars.

Link to the article :: https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... e-20200609
Bob le Brave
 
Noshow
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:05 am

Didn't they just cancel their electric Avro demonstrator?
 
Baldr
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:23 am

Jetport wrote:
lugie wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't know who came up with this (not Le Maire as he's a literature guy, not an engineer), however H2 fuel might make sense for long haul aircraft, not short haul ones. Worse, they mentioned 500Km long flights, but at the same time are trying to ban such short flights !

For 500Km hybrid/electric is the way. But I'm not sure there is a market, outside island countries maybe.


Well they are banning such short flights right now when they're operated by emission-intensive fossil fuelled jet engines.

I don't think that anybody would be opposed to flying even short distance if such flights were operated by entirely carbon-neutral and emission-free H2 planes.

Such a ban will likely be reversed if(when) this technology sees the light of the day and is applied by airlines on a significant scale.


Electric, Hydrogen and Hybrid aircraft are just silly. The energy density/kg in usable systems for aircraft of hydrogen and/or batteries is just too low. Kerosene is much too energy dense/kg in a usable system for aircraft to replace with anything in the foreseeable future. If you want to make aviation carbon neutral, use offsets or sequestration, it will be much cheaper than hydrogen or electric aircraft. Banning short flights will also cost lives. Air transport is safer than rail and far safer than auto or bus transport.


Nonsense.

Liquid hydrogen (LH2) has only around 30 percent as much energy per volume, but Jet-B has only some 30 percent as much energy per mass. LH2 has to be stored in large rounded tanks in a fatter fuselage. The increased tank and fuselage weight, decreased fuel weight, and increased fuselage drag roughly balance out, so range and energy cost are similar to today’s.

The max flying altitude could for example be reduced to about 30,000 ft in order to avoid leaving water vapour (and some NOx) in the stratosphere — i.e. leading to only a slight reduction in efficiency.

Also, LH2 could be produced and liquefied at the airport itself.

It’s important to note that an airport environment is ideal to house massive photovoltaic facilities, because airports tend to have a lot of land available (including building roofs). Furthermore, the energy produced is directly consumed at the infrastructure itself and, therefore, there is no need to ship the LH2 over large distances. If the generation of LH2 cannot be fully met by the massive airport solar photovoltaic facilities, electricity from the grid would maintain hydrogen production via electrolysis using off-peak electricity.

BTW, here's a design concept for a liquid hydrogen turbo-electric transport aircraft:

https://www.dglr.de/publikationen/2018/480344.pdf

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2929/dd17179534adb4b9404bf1d217f107bc6a72.pdf
 
A380MSN004
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:49 am

Noshow wrote:
Didn't they just cancel their electric Avro demonstrator?

They did but now they gonna have Fresh cash to finalize this research demonstrator
 
VV
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:29 am

I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.
 
Baldr
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:56 pm

VV wrote:
I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.


"pragmatic": ???

"ideology": ???

"not achievable": IMJ, The EIS of a LH2-powered airliner is achievable by 2035.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:08 pm

Jetport wrote:
lugie wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't know who came up with this (not Le Maire as he's a literature guy, not an engineer), however H2 fuel might make sense for long haul aircraft, not short haul ones. Worse, they mentioned 500Km long flights, but at the same time are trying to ban such short flights !

For 500Km hybrid/electric is the way. But I'm not sure there is a market, outside island countries maybe.


Well they are banning such short flights right now when they're operated by emission-intensive fossil fuelled jet engines.

I don't think that anybody would be opposed to flying even short distance if such flights were operated by entirely carbon-neutral and emission-free H2 planes.

Such a ban will likely be reversed if(when) this technology sees the light of the day and is applied by airlines on a significant scale.


Electric, Hydrogen and Hybrid aircraft are just silly. The energy density/kg in usable systems for aircraft of hydrogen and/or batteries is just too low. Kerosene is much too energy dense/kg in a usable system for aircraft to replace with anything in the foreseeable future. If you want to make aviation carbon neutral, use offsets or sequestration, it will be much cheaper than hydrogen or electric aircraft. Banning short flights will also cost lives. Air transport is safer than rail and far safer than auto or bus transport.


If our economy survives to the end of the century (and I have my doubts) it will be because of initiatives like this. Short term, I have not been able to see what sort of carbon offsets would need to pay, and investing all of that money in BEV incentives, charging stations, solar and wind power, heat pumps and greater efficiency so aviation becomes carbon neutral. But there are huge sectors in which offsets could be applied.

Hybrid will be coming for flights less than 500 km, and that distance will grow.

There is reason to believe that rail, auto, and bus transport will become much safer.
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VV
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:57 pm

Baldr wrote:
VV wrote:
I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.


"pragmatic": ???

"ideology": ???

"not achievable": IMJ, The EIS of a LH2-powered airliner is achievable by 2035.


If you say so, but I do not believe it would happen in 2035.

They should use the money wisely.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:02 pm

Baldr wrote:
VV wrote:
I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.


"pragmatic": ???

"ideology": ???

"not achievable": IMJ, The EIS of a LH2-powered airliner is achievable by 2035.

As someone who has designed aircraft parts and currently in Integration and Test, I think 2035 is aggressive as engine technology I worked on in 1998 to 2001, entered service in 2016 and that was evolutionary technology. Fuel systems, when finished, seem simple, but gas fuel systems are so much more complicated than liquid and how is the fuel injector cooling being resolved? Liquid (fuel) cooling is far more effective than gas cooling.

Certification is far more involved today than 20 years ago. Everything going into commercial aircraft today, I can usually tell you some people who worked on the technology prior to 2000 that is in commercial aircraft. The exception being 3D printing.

In 2000, hydrogen was just grad student papers.

Lightsaber
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Baldr
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Baldr wrote:
VV wrote:
I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.


"pragmatic": ???

"ideology": ???

"not achievable": IMJ, The EIS of a LH2-powered airliner is achievable by 2035.

As someone who has designed aircraft parts and currently in Integration and Test, I think 2035 is aggressive as engine technology I worked on in 1998 to 2001, entered service in 2016 and that was evolutionary technology. Fuel systems, when finished, seem simple, but gas fuel systems are so much more complicated than liquid and how is the fuel injector cooling being resolved? Liquid (fuel) cooling is far more effective than gas cooling.

Certification is far more involved today than 20 years ago. Everything going into commercial aircraft today, I can usually tell you some people who worked on the technology prior to 2000 that is in commercial aircraft. The exception being 3D printing.

In 2000, hydrogen was just grad student papers.

Lightsaber


Why are you talking about "gas" fuel systems, presumably using compressed hydrogen, when I was talking about using liquid hydrogen?

Interestingly, with the arrival of MgB2 for low-cost superconducting magnets, liquid hydrogen cooling has become an interesting alternative to costly liquid helium. Liquid hydrogen is generally regarded as the most efficient coolant in cryogenics and, in particular, is well suited for cooling superconducting magnets (and cables).

Please do take the time to read the two papers linked to in reply #33:

https://www.dglr.de/publikationen/2018/480344.pdf

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2929/dd17179534adb4b9404bf1d217f107bc6a72.pdf

Here are some excerpts from the second link:

3.1 Propulsion Chain

The concept of a turboelectric propulsion system consists of a gas turbine, generator and electric motor driving two contra-rotating propellers. The two CRORs are used as propulsors, whereas the gas turbine is solely used to produce shaft power. The power generated by the turboshaft is transformed into electric energy through a high temperature superconducting (HTS) generator. The coupling between generator and electric motor acts as electric transmission, which allows both the gas turbine and the CRORs to run at their respective optimum speeds. Electrical cross-wiring between the generators and the electric motors, as seen in figure 3.1, enables all electric motors to continue to operate in case of a generator or gas turbine failure. To maintain the same speed ratio of electric motors and gas turbine, the variable-pitch propeller decreases the power loading at the same speed to match the reduced power provided by the remaining gas turbine.

Gas Turbine

Present gas turbine cycles reach their limits when it comes to an improvement of energy efficiency or thrust specific fuel consumption (TSFC) along with a reduction of NOx emission. Designing a gas turbine at high load levels for best core efficiencies causes high cycle temperatures. Parametric optimization of a two-spool turboshaft in GasTurb 13 shows, that high cycle temperatures require high overall pressure ratios (OPR) to attain best core efficiencies. An optimization of TSFC therefore pushes the formation of NOx, as formation mechanisms show an exponential dependency on cycle temperatures [8]. New gas turbine concepts are currently under investigation by numerous research centres and industrial partners. Regarding the 2045 time frame of Polaris, the intercooled recuperative aero engine (IRA) concept shows the most promising cycle technology [9]. Intercooling reduces the specific power demand of the high pressure compressor (HPC), as the mass flow is cooled down between compressor stages. The work needed by the HPC to enhance OPR is decreased as the temperature at its entry is falling [10]. Recuperation benefits from increasing spread in temperature between exhaust mass flow and compressor mass flow, thus enabling higher temperature levels in the combustion chamber without manipulating fuel flow [10]. IRA cycles show the ability of higher core efficiencies for an OPR of up to 40, see figure 3.2. As part of the project "Revolutionäre Arbeitsprozesse" (RE-VAP), multiple IRA cycles have been investigated using the key technologies intercooling, recuperation, isochoric combustion with a wave rotor or pulse detonation and sequential combustion [12]. They concluded, that intercooling and recuperation enables the thermal efficiency to increase by 7%-13% to the baseline of ηth,baseline = 42 % [12] for an overall engine. Although isochoric combustion may lead to even higher thermal efficiencies, this technology is neglected in the design process as there is insufficient performance simulation and poor knowledge about its negative impact on turbine behaviour due to unsteady exit conditions [13]. Contrary to the estimated values of the bare IRA cycle, presented in figure 3.2, these thermal efficiencies are calculated using a tailored engine model. This model is taking losses due to propulsor, component cooling and minimum tip height into account. For a more realistic assessment of gas turbine efficiencies, the following calculations will consider the values as concluded by REVAP.. As part of the program, an optimization of the IRA cycle performed by TU Dresden proved thermal efficiencies of ηth = 50.8 % for a moderate OPR of 40 and 1590 K TET. Reaching equal thermal efficiencies for a conventional Joule cycle, requires an OPR of 99 and 2000 K TET [14]. New combustion technology and the reduction of OPR and TET are main drivers for low NOx combustion [8]. Employing IRA into the Polaris concept yields some additional advantages regarding intercooler technology. Using LH2 as coolant exhibits high efficiencies of the intercooler, allowing its surfaces to be minimised. Intercooling during critical operating conditions, such as take-off and climb, remains possible with a LH2 cool- ing architecture, where otherwise the cooling air mass flow for conventional bypass architectures might not be sufficiently provided. More synergies are found regarding the reduction of bleed air temperature, therefore optimizing the cooling of hot components and simultaneously enabling a reduction of bleed air mass flow which raises core efficiency [10].


AND

Superconducting Technology

Cycle studies during the REVAP program proved the necessity of a separation of propulsor and power generation if engine architecture shall be optimized - which is therefore realized in the Polaris concept. As described above, decoupling the rotational speeds of gas turbine and propellers allows them to run in their respective optimum, as generator and electric motor are acting as “electrical gearbox” [15]. Furthermore, a turboelectric architecture enables an independent positioning of propulsion chain components. Incorporating conventional systems in turboelectric propulsion chain architecture is not practical for the Polaris concept, as power densities of electric motors and generators are too low; but superconducting technology becomes a key enabler for these systems [16], see figure 3.3. Moreover, using liquid hydrogen both as propellant and coolant for superconducting wires, cooling is practically free because liquid hydrogen must be evaporated before being burnt. HTS technology, discovered in 1986, exhibits high current densities at very low resistance. Fully superconducting machine designs , using HTS winding both on rotor and stator, show power densities up to 40kW/kg at rotational speeds of about 10,000 rpm [17]. Several institutions have already realized partially superconducting systems, thereunder General Electric’s Homopolar Inductor Alternator with a power density of 8kW/kg [18]. Partially superconducting machines use superconducting windings on the rotor where DC currents induce a DC magnetic field, interacting with copper stator windings which are excitated with alternating current. Current superconducting material like BSCCO and YBCO shows AC losses which make their use as stator windings impractical until now [16]. A lot of effort on research for low AC loss HTS material is done by several research centres and companies. According to the American Institute of Physics, MgB2 with a critical temperature of 39K and best performance under 30K, shows high potential to reduce AC losses when arranged as fine, twisted filaments [16]. Liquid hydrogen is on a temperature level well below the critical temperature of MgB2 thus improving its current carrying capacity [19]. Based on NASA’s technology roadmap, power densities of HTS machines - including generators and motors - are predicted to be as high as 33kW/kg [20]. Further calculations for the Polaris concept will use a more conservative value of 20 kW/kg.


AND

4.4 Fuel System

In comparison to kerosene tanks liquid hydrogen tanks must be able to fulfill more requirements. To the general task of keeping the fuel in its desired place, LH2 tanks have to keep the hydrogen in a liquid state. This means the inner temperature has to be kept at 21.7 K at a pressure of 1.4479 bar [43]. The tank configuration has next to storage reasons also operational and integrational causes. The final decision can be seen in figure 4.2. As you can see above we decided to use six tanks. Two of them are always arranged alongside and in a parallel way. If they are fully loaded with 2200 kg, the front tanks carry each 600 kg amount of LH2. The residual smaller ones carry 250 kg per tank. The segmentation has on the one side operational reasons and on the other hand weight and balance causes. Due to the relatively high impact of the tank weight on the OME, an extra short-range version is planned. Therefore, unnecessary tanks should be removable, in order to convert the aircraft. The second segmentation has its reason in the position of the wing. Its structure divides the aft tanks into two parts. This results in four smaller tanks. The aft ones close to the engine functions as a feeder tanks whereas the other ones can be removed if this is desired. The main driver for tank configurations are explained in more detailed beneath.

Volume

The basis to an effective tank configuration is to reach necessary storable volume, which is desired for the intended missions. With the known density of liquid hydrogen, this is a fixed value to deal with [44].

Shape

The second driver is the tank’s shape. Due to the very low density of LH2 the integration was the main problem when designing a hydrogen aircraft in the past. The ideal shape to store liquid hydrogen is a sphere because it reduces the surface area, which is the main reason for a high rate of vaporizing hydrogen. Of course, it is not possible to fit all fuel in one sphere. The logical conclusion, when looking at the fuselage is a cylindrical shaped tank. The pressure distribution is not as good, but with two hemispheres closing the cylinder, it is still feasible [44]. With respect to the available space in the fuselage the outer diameter of the cylinder is fixed and with it the resulting length of the tanks, too. Additional improvements can be gained by the use of a dished bottoms instead of the hemispheres. It small disadvantages in terms of surface area but a reduction of the tank’s length makes the choice reasonable [45]. Both the cylindrical shape and die dashed bottom help to reach the goal to place the tank in the lower fuselage and are quite easy to manufacture. This has big advantages concerning the aerodynamics compared to other projects which decide to attach them outside the fuselage [44]. There are two basic possibilities to integrate the tank in the fuselage. The chosen one is the non-integral way. Studies say integral tanks only have small weight advantage, which gets smaller if you increase the design life up to the service life of the aircraft [43]. Safety thoughts made the final decision. Damages at the fuselage structure don’t follow in a loss of all the fuel if you use non-integral tanks. On top of that they are removable which makes maintenance inspections much more easier and the short-range version possible.

Insulation

The wall structure of an LH2 tank is closely linked with to the selection of the insulation material. The chosen material is polyurethane, a from CO2 frothed up foam. It is easy to handle, cheap and has a low density. Other vacuum-based insulations turn out to be too dangerous in the case of a vacuum loss [44]. The structure can be seen in figure 4.6. Due to heat transfer effects the stored LH2 changes phase to GH2 which can diffuse through the tank wall. That makes the insulation neces- sary. The amount of diffused hydrogen by time mostly depends on the tank’s surface area and on the insulation layer thickness. This amount can be estimated by equations based on [45]. Although it is recommended to leave the hydro- gen in the aircraft even on ground over night, it might be possible to defuel when the aircraft is out of service. This might be the case if there is a major maintenance event coming up or the tanks need an inspection them self. Tanks need to be checked every 4000 flight hours. To inspect them from inside the LH2 has to be removed, purged and filled with breathable air. After defueling and purging there is still GH2 left in the tanks. The warm up procedure can be started and after reaching 77.6 K the fuel storage can be filled with dry nitrogen gas. This procedure removes nearly all left hydrogen. After flushing them with air to remove the nitrogen, the tank can be entered [43]. Refueling procedure is similar but in reverse order. By nitrogen air and CO2 are flushed out. Purging the tank from nitrogen is done by GH2. During that the chill-down process of the tank starts by the use of cold GH2 . Fueling a warm tank with LH2 must be conducted slowly at first to avoid over-pressurizing. The flow rate can be increased with decreasing a tank temperature. This whole process must be done over night, to prevent absence form service [43].

Fuel System Safety

In contrast to aircrafts with standard configurations, storing the fuel in the tanks, the hydrogen tanks are located in the belly of the fuselage. This means they are directly placed underneath the cabin. Therefore special considerations have to be made. In case of a damage of the tanks it must be proven that leakage does not interfere with passenger’s safety.

"In most cases a comparison of fuels will show hydrogen to be the safest and least devastating"
- Bhupendra Khandelwal et al in Hydrogen powered aircraft : The future of air transport, January 2013

Releases of LH2 out of tanks at a rate of 60 L/min were investigated under conditions of ignited and unignited leakage [47]. The unignited test showed that a pool of liquid and large solid deposits are produced. They kept stable in their phase and disappear after several minutes. Tests with ignition of the vapor above the solid deposit pointed out that a flame emerges but no explosion occurs [47]. In comparison to that kerosene fill out as much space a possible. LH2 is localized to the leak and vaporising in a controlled way [44]. In the ignited case turned out to be difficult. The clouds of H2 occurred after the leak of LH2 is difficult to ignite. The reason may be that the gas cloud is over-rich in hydrogen. In case of an successful ignition the hydrogen burned out in the form of a gentle jet flame from the release point about 1 meter high. It was discovered that hydrogen flames usually radiate less heat than hydrocarbon gases flames. While kerosene burned out in an uncontrolled way endangering the passengers with high risk for loss of lifes, LH2 is shone to flame out in a very controlled manner. No fire carpet will be formed [44]. Furthermore, flammability tests prove the liquid hydrogen to burn around 14 times faster than kerosene for the same fuel volume. Burn- ing 121L of propellant takes 27s or 7min respectively. The reduced time span will prevent the fuselage to collapse due to high heat levels [43].
 
Baldr
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:38 pm

VV wrote:
Baldr wrote:
VV wrote:
I think it is a good thing, especially if the fund is used to define products in a pragmatic way and is not driven by an ideology toward targets that are not achievable.


"pragmatic": ???

"ideology": ???

"not achievable": IMJ, The EIS of a LH2-powered airliner is achievable by 2035.


If you say so, but I do not believe it would happen in 2035.

They should use the money wisely.


Well, the A32Xneo series will be viable for the next 15 years, while the MAX appears to be in terminal decline.

Therefore, the question you should ask yourself is if Boeing would be using their money wisely if they would decide to launch an all new NSA and/or an A321neo competitor, with the risk of being faced with an Airbus zero CO2 emission single-aisle aircraft entering into service only a few years after their conventionally powered single-aisle Max replacement aircraft?
 
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Aesma
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:01 pm

Germany just announced a 9 billion euros hydrogen plan...

As for spending money wisely, at the moment tons of money are being spent on many things, including propping up financial markets, so any money going to research (medical also, of course), engineers and doctors, is money well spend in my book.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:46 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.


Reminds the Concorde saga


Amazing how much of a disconnect there is between the top-heavy EU governments and the needs of the "man on the street". Utility prices are already 4-5x what they are in North America. How much more can they burden the ordinary taxpayer with pie-in-the-sky nonsense ideas like this?
 
Vicenza
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:59 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.


Reminds the Concorde saga


Utility prices are already 4-5x what they are in North America. How much more can they burden the ordinary taxpayer with pie-in-the-sky nonsense ideas like this?


Not the last time I made utility payments in North America (US to be precise) they aren't.
 
Baldr
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:23 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
kyu wrote:
So is the French government attempting to dictate Airbus which planes to develop?
Since when do governments know which products are good for companies?
I really hope this plan hasn't been finalized yet and that the German and Spanish governments will kill it.


Reminds the Concorde saga


Amazing how much of a disconnect there is between the top-heavy EU governments and the needs of the "man on the street". Utility prices are already 4-5x what they are in North America. How much more can they burden the ordinary taxpayer with pie-in-the-sky nonsense ideas like this?


European residential electricity rates are roughly (on average) twice US rates, not 4-5 times higher as you claim.

The difference between the U.S. and Europe is that the costs of Europe’s transition to renewables are borne at least in part by the consumer while in the US it is not, or at least not directly. In the U.S. renewables expenditures are offset by adjustments to the federal budget and which ultimately get paid by the U.S. taxpayer.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/
 
VV
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:02 am

Baldr wrote:
...
Therefore, the question you should ask yourself is if Boeing would be using their money wisely if they would decide to launch an all new NSA and/or an A321neo competitor, with the risk of being faced with an Airbus zero CO2 emission single-aisle aircraft entering into service only a few years after their conventionally powered single-aisle Max replacement aircraft?



Why would they even consider doing that now?
It would be a very unwise way to spend money.
 
Baldr
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:10 pm

Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:08 pm

VV wrote:
Baldr wrote:
...
Therefore, the question you should ask yourself is if Boeing would be using their money wisely if they would decide to launch an all new NSA and/or an A321neo competitor, with the risk of being faced with an Airbus zero CO2 emission single-aisle aircraft entering into service only a few years after their conventionally powered single-aisle Max replacement aircraft?



Why would they even consider doing that now?
It would be a very unwise way to spend money.


Because Boeing don't have a viable competitor to the A321neo while their MAX program appears to be in terminal decline.

Also, as the grounding of the 737 MAX has now stretched beyond one year, more customers will be able walk away from orders without penalty due to material adverse change clauses in sales contracts that kick in if the plane maker fails to deliver within a year of the agreed date. Hence, Boeing appears to be in a much more precarious situation than Airbus thanks to the the double whammy of the MAX grounding and the impact on aviation from Covid-19.

When the economy pick up again (post 2022/2023?) many MAX customers are free to re-order single-aisles and quite a few of them just might go for the A320neo/A321neo family, rather than the sub-par MAX family.

The fact of the matter is that the current A320neo/A321neo will be viable until 2035 and as such will be able to function as a bridge to a ZERO CO2 emission single aisle aircraft, while the MAX programme is likely to suffer a premature ending -- long before any ZERO CO2 emission aircraft would enter into service.

What will Boeing do, say in the late 2020s, when their single aisle market share might drop down to a mid-teens level. Launch an all new conventionally powered single aisle aircraft or just walk away from the single aisle market, altogether.
 
Noshow
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Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:35 pm

The MAX has the same engine generation as the neo. Given that the problems are hopefully solved now it should live about as long as the competitor. Hydrogen aircraft are something for 2050. There is room for another generation of conventional aircraft in between. New, more efficient engines needed for the business case will be available in the second half of the 2020s it seems. That will be the moment Boeing cannot let pass.
 
Baldr
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:10 pm

Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:17 pm

Noshow wrote:
The MAX has the same engine generation as the neo. Given that the problems are hopefully solved now it should live about as long as the competitor. Hydrogen aircraft are something for 2050. There is room for another generation of conventional aircraft in between. New, more efficient engines needed for the business case will be available in the second half of the 2020s it seems. That will be the moment Boeing cannot let pass.


Yes, the reason why the MAX crashed twice is because it has the same engine generation as the Neo. Believing that the problems are now solved seems to be rather optimistic. Of course, the MAX could last along as the competition, but with ever decreasing market share worldwide.

Now, maybe it would suit Boeing better if liquid hydrogen powered aircraft only would arrive in the 2050s, but what will they do if Airbus develops a ZERO CO2 emission aircraft arriving in 2035?

I would not be surprised if this has been Airbus' plan all along; that is, replacing the A32Xneo family with a ZERO CO2 emission single aisle aircraft. However, they have very likely been planning on not to show their cards before Boeing would have gone ahead with launching yet another conventionally powered aircraft. Thanks to the Covid-19 pandemic and the massive hit to the airline and aerospace industries, what better way is there than to now start preparing for such an undertaking, thereby keeping thousands of engineers busy -- the same engineers who would also be inspired to stay on in the aerospace industry thanks to such a new and exciting programme.
 
VV
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Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: France Announces Huge Aerospace Support Plan

Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:54 pm

Baldr wrote:
...
Now, maybe it would suit Boeing better if liquid hydrogen powered aircraft only would arrive in the 2050s, but what will they do if Airbus develops a ZERO CO2 emission aircraft arriving in 2035?
...


Yeah, why not.

Airbus should spend the money on that.

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