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DLHAM
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15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:49 am

Today exactly 15 years ago Continental Airlines flight 74 was almost halfway from Newark to Hamburg, it was the inaugural flight and the first transatlantic flight to my home city after 4 years.
The same year Continental launched 757 flights to Belfast, Berlin, Bristol and Stockholm. Already in 2004 they launched Edinburgh, in 2006 they would add Barcelona, Copenhagen and Cologne -- also on 757s.

This made me think about what had happened to all these flights, also given that the Hamburg flight got axed in 2018 after 13 years. I found out that most of these legacy CO flights to "secondary" markets do not exist anymore.

Edinburgh - still operating (Corona aside!)
Belfast - axed in 2017
Berlin - still operating
Bristol - axed in 2010
Stockholm - seasonal since 2015 (next one to go?)
Hamburg - seasonal in 2017, axed 2018
Barcelona - still operating
Copenhagen - axed 2012
Cologne - axed in 2008 already

Also Birmingham and Oslo were stopped a few years ago -- I dont know when they started. So for example except this seasonal 757 to Stockholm United left all of Scandinavia.

I wonder what went wrong with all of those routes? I can talk about my hometown Hamburg: the EWR-HAM flight worked very well for Continental. It even survived direct competition with Emirates on HAM-JFK, the financial crisis of 2008, sky high fuel prices back then, it survived Continental switching to Star Alliance and the United merger. In 2015 it has even been upgraded to 767. Passenger numbers between NY and HAM have doubled since 2005 -- and I am sure the development on these other discontinued markets is similar. Why cant United make flights work today that Continental could 15 years ago?

Also: what do you think how things will develop for secondary EU markets after corona? I think this whole crisis will turn out to be a big opportunity at the end for many of these markets to get back transatlantic services. The A321XLR will help a lot. After passenger numbers recovered they will be much higher than they used to be in 2004-2006 and given that the XLR is much more economical than the 757 it could even be possible to sucessful establish markets that failed quickly even with the 757, such as Cologne and Stuttgart.
I think Continental was very smart to fly their 757s to those secondary markets because they could charge an extra for offering a nonstop flight as many of these cities lacked direct competition to the US. I hope United will do the same with the XLR!

Continental Airlines first flight in Hamburg, June 10, 2005


Some of the 757s have not received their winglets back then, even with winglets that flight was a real stretch for the 757


Switched to the 767


With the beautiful 767-400 in high summer season


United was not entirely new to Hamburg, in fact they already operated 727 flights to London in the 1990s
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N766UA
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:05 am

CLE-LGW was a 757 all the way back in, what, 1998?
 
N649DL
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:06 am

The codeshares with SAS was likely the demise of the CPH and OSL flights. ARN is for sure next to go as SAS is just a household name at EWR these days.

HAM being upgraded then canned was a bit of a surprise. Just goes to show EWR isn’t a gateway for all Euro destinations. Even Rome was made seasonal for a bit (that shocked me.)

So in theory, no, I don’t think these secondary European destinations on CO from EWR were successful. They kept them around to backfill it’s TATL profile against NYC competition such as AA and DL in the 2000s. Once UA and CO merged and LH codeshare got involved, it was over for them on some of these secondary Euro routes.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:37 am

N766UA wrote:
CLE-LGW was a 757 all the way back in, what, 1998?


Theres been some 757 destinations in Europe before 2005 of course. LIS, DUS, STN, BRU(?). But the majority came from 2005.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:48 am

757s flew across the Atlantic, but 2005 sounds about right for Continentals revolution to smaller cities on 757s. Pretty profitable for them I think until fuel prices got too high then the per seat costs started to hurt more.
 
amc737
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 am

Arguably the first secondary EU city Continental served was Manchester which started in July 1995 with a 757. I believe Birmingham started in 1997 and Glasgow in 1998. Stansted was short lived in 2001 and Edinburgh, Bristol and Belfast have already been mentioned

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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:42 am

N649DL wrote:
The codeshares with SAS was likely the demise of the CPH and OSL flights. ARN is for sure next to go as SAS is just a household name at EWR these days.


Did they actually ever codeshare? From my impression their relationship with SAS after they started routes to Scandinavia never was very cozy

OSL did start in 2004, just after SAS cancelled their OSL-EWR route. When SAS restarted OSL-EWR, Continental didn't last long

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... 27_01.aspx
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:48 am

N766UA wrote:
CLE-LGW was a 757 all the way back in, what, 1998?

1995

I don't know where this 15yrs is coming from, CO was doing secondary cities TATL for 10yrs before that.

Also worth noting that they were nowhere near the first to do so (not saying that that's implied here).
BA, LY, and (IINM) TW had all offered scheduled 757 TATL service prior.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:27 am

I believe Continental launched Cleveland - Gatwick in June 1999 - it was billed as Cleveland's first daily transatlantic flight - I presume because JAT had flown there previously and Pan Am had 1-stop to London

In terms of Trans-Atlantic 757's excluding charter airlines like Air Europe who used theirs to Florida early on British Airways used 757's from Birmingham and Glasgow to JFK from January 1995, American Airlines also started a JFK to Manchester route at the same time Continental launched their 757 flight to Manchester in 1995 it didn't last long. TWA also flew 757's to JFK to Lisbon and Barcelona from 1998, I understand they also on occasion flew St Louis Gatwick.

I believe Iberia may have flown Malaga JFK with a 757 in the 1990's

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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:08 am

In the 90s, post Cold War and post Northern Irish peace deal optimism prompted American Trans Air to introduce a scheduled transatlantic 757 route, JFK Belfast Riga. The boss might have been Latvian which also made it something of a sentimental journey. Alas, also an unprofitable one. But full marks for effort.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:38 am

amc737 wrote:
Continental launched their 757 flight to Manchester in 1995 it didn't last long.


I assume you meant it didn't last long as a 757? It was indeed up-gauged to a DC-10 in 1996, but EWR-MAN was served continuously from July 1995 to March 2020. Of course most for the past 15 years or so it has been a 757 again, initially double daily EWR-MAN, then one daily with IAD-MAN added, and then down to a sole 757. Pre-Covid it was supposed to go up to a 767 this Summer.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:50 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Pre-Covid it was supposed to go up to a 767 this Summer.


Not just this summer but last summer too.

Summer 2019 was a B767-400, then switched to a B767-300 for winter and then supposed to be the - 300 this summer too. Winter 2020 sees it back as a - 400 and lastly back to the - 300 next summer (as things stand)
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:02 am

No I mean Americans 757 service in 1995 from JFK to Manchester didn't last long. They did return with a 757 in 2004 flying Boston Manchester, again this was short lived before more widespread 757 returned later in the 2000's and after the merge with US Airways.

In terms of Birmingham, Continental also flew a DC-10 at least 1 season and had 2 daily 757s at one stage

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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:34 am

Now I'm sad. Continental flying from Belfast was awesome and I finally had the chance to fly BFS-EWR and EWR-MCO on 757s when they had become United (my favorite airline). To this day, I still miss the route being available at BFS especially as we have no direct link to North America as Norwegian left.
I hold out hope that it may come back eventually but it is unlikely and the current situation would be the final nail on that coffin.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:52 am

DLHAM wrote:
This made me think about what had happened to all these flights, also given that the Hamburg flight got axed in 2018 after 13 years. I found out that most of these legacy CO flights to "secondary" markets do not exist anymore.

Edinburgh - still operating (Corona aside!)
Belfast - axed in 2017
Berlin - still operating
Bristol - axed in 2010
Stockholm - seasonal since 2015 (next one to go?)
Hamburg - seasonal in 2017, axed 2018
Barcelona - still operating
Copenhagen - axed 2012
Cologne - axed in 2008 already



Although a low yield market, calling BCN a "secondary" market is a bit of a stretch IMO, it is the biggest cruise port in the Med so BCN sustains non-stop service to multiple US cities by UA/DL/AA. If I recall good enough it is JFK, EWR, MIA, IAD, ATL and ORD. Also have to add DY and LV which have also served BCN-US in the recent past.

In the case of CGN, it hurts to be so close to DUS.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:54 am

CO operated CLE-CDG on the 757 for a few months in 2008 but it did not last long. CLE-LHR (it replaced CLE-LGW after Bermuda II was replaced) was cut in 2008 to move the LHR slot over to add an EWR-LHR frequency.

Occasionally, CO flew the 757 into GVA but it was a sub, not a regular service which was generally a 767-200ER alternating with the 767-400ER.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:04 pm

N649DL wrote:

HAM being upgraded then canned was a bit of a surprise. Just goes to show EWR isn’t a gateway for all Euro destinations.


The problem isn't EWR (nor NYC generally), it's HAM. For its size and its income it's just not a successful TATL destination (or origin).

With OP the asking why so many destinations failed, I would ask in return how he would define success? IMHO you can't even call some of the European destinations secondary, but tertiary. Bristol? That was a long-shot from the start. By definition, CO's use of 757s was for routes that had been marginal for 767s (or the early A330s). CO couldn't expect them all to be sustained - many new routes aren't: see UA 787s to secondary China, DL ATL-MAO, AA MIA-REC...

Fundamentally, CO was relying on:

- fare premiums for non-stop flights to NYC
- the lure of NYC as a leisure destination
- the lure of these European cities as destinations for Americans (and that goes a long way to explain why some worked and some didn't)
- connectivity of the EWR hub
- smaller increments of capacity allowing more frequent service and/or extensions to typical seasonal services, generating higher fares
- higher avg fares covering the higher CASM of a 757

If any Northeast U.S. hub could pull it off, it would have been EWR. (DL at JFK is a little down on domestic connectivity; PHL isn't in the same league as an international tourist destination.)

Observe that YYZ supports service to a lot of secondary and tertiary European destinations.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:08 pm

Bristol got dropped as I believe Continental/United got access to LHR.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:24 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I think Continental was very smart to fly their 757s to those secondary markets because they could charge an extra for offering a nonstop flight as many of these cities lacked direct competition to the US. I hope United will do the same with the XLR!

In fact, most of these cities had plenty of competition to the US, those being one-stop options, like what CO could offer to any destination other than NY, the only difference being which side of the Atlantic you would have to connect.

CO offered a real premium for people going from there European cities and NY (or the other way).
They also had an advantage to some extant to connect people between these cities and places with a link to EWR but not to European hubs, in which case they could offer they only one stop connection.
The question is how big are those two markets together. And the fact that most of those flight ended answers "too small".
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:32 pm

FWIW, I remember taking a YUL (ERJ-45) - EWR (757) - Cologne return flight back then.

Only paid like CAD$380 total (economy) and also earned a bundle of Onepass promo points.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The problem isn't EWR (nor NYC generally), it's HAM. For its size and its income it's just not a successful TATL destination (or origin).


I would definitely call this route sucessful at least until the desastrous CASM 3 class "AOG-767s" came in late 2015. Until then there were 11 summer seasons and 10 winter seasons with an average load of 89% in Summer and 78% in Winter -- overall 84% which is not too bad I think (actually even more than 84% because there were fewer flights in winter season). In fact after Emirates left HAM-JFK there were several years with a north of 90% loadfactor over the whole year. No Airline keeps a route that long - yearround - if its not sucessful.

Especially NYC-HAM is a very large market and even one of the largest unserved ones (or even the largest) between the US and Europe -- with 113.000 passengers in 2019 which is a PDEW of 155 or 186 from April through October. The drop compared to 2018 (we lost that UA flight) was only 8,8%. This shows how small the piece of the cake was that United was able to get on this market.
The only problems are January and February, but I think this the case for almost every TATL market. The share of US bound passengers on flights to Hamburg is lower than to many other european places. United had a close to 50% share of US passengers to Hamburg, I heard that they expected the share to be around 70% after the flight went seasonal. Hamburgs strenghts are different than US tourists -- but the result is that some of the strongest months on NYC-HAM are outside of that "summer seasonal timeframe" from May though early October.
Share of Business travelers is 25%, not as much as London maybe but okay I think. When United flew the 767 there was an average of around 22-23 passengers in Business Class -- this excludes upgrades and nonrevs. I think with a 29 seat capacity thats okay. Should be more than enough for 16 Business Class seats (or 15 with one for crew rest) on an A321XLR.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:38 pm

The US-EU market 15 years ago was dramatically different from the pre-COVID era (I say that because nobody knows how things will turn out from here). Bermuda II was still in effect, US-EU Open Skies didn't start until 3/30/08, low-cost competition was virtually nonexistent, the market was more fragmented because consolidation hadn't yet hit on either side of the Atlantic, alliances were quite different and the current construct of immunized joint ventures was still in its nascent stages.

Suffice to say, things have changed. In United's case, with capacity decisions being made jointly with A++ partners, long/thin EU routes ultimately didn't generate sufficient revenue to justify a dedicated flight rather than flowing connecting traffic over a high-volume JV hub. There was also an effort from 2015 and beyond to avoid scheduling 757s into continental EU, especially in the winter, due to frequent, well-publicized fuel stops on westbound legs.

In the UK, CO consolidated to LHR in 2009 (even CLE got a LHR flight for a season), dropping a single EWR-LGW 757, and BRS lost service after the GFC. Following the Brexit referendum and the expiration of some subsidies, UA dropped NCL/BHX/BFS and converted GLA to seasonal. EWR-LHR 757s went away in favor of all-767 service.

In Germany, CGN was dropped ahead of the Lufthansa partnership (around the time STR was added) and STR never came back in 2015 after MBUSA left its headquarters in Montvale, NJ. EWR-HAM was one of those business-oriented 'thin' routes, but captured a reasonable premium niche, though did not generate sufficient demand in the deep winter to be profitable with a widebody. My understanding is that the market wasn't really compatible with seasonal service, as (while quite lovely) it's not a major tourist region, and business travel required year-round service. The combination of required aircraft performance and the demand profile meant it needed to be a year-round service, or nothing.

In Scandinavia, CPH went away after the GFC. OSL and ARN stuck around longer, with ARN remaining on a seasonal basis, but profitability in these markets struggled with the influx of Norwegian capacity, rather than competition with SK.

Other longtime routes, like BRU, LIS, BCN, MAD, MAN, DUB, AMS, TXL, etc., have successfully transitioned to year-round widebody service.

United's TATL 757 strategy has shifted from year-round, low-volume business markets to seasonal leisure, and this summer flights from EWR were planned to KEF, OPO, SNN, GLA, EDI, ARN, plus a handful of others from ORD/IAD. Prior to COVID, most UA 752s were deployed in domestic premium markets, which is also a strategy shift from the CO era and means that fewer are available for TATL service. The transition is more a reflection of changing industry dynamics and trends rather than a binary "success or failure" question.
Last edited by codc10 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
CALMSP
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:39 pm

also had STR on the list. Certainly do miss those options to a number of locations, hopefully the 321XLR will be able to replicate for either new destinations or maybe some returns.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:43 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Although a low yield market, calling BCN a "secondary" market is a bit of a stretch IMO, it is the biggest cruise port in the Med so BCN sustains non-stop service to multiple US cities by UA/DL/AA. If I recall good enough it is JFK, EWR, MIA, IAD, ATL and ORD. Also have to add DY and LV which have also served BCN-US in the recent past.


This is why I used quotation marks in the Thread title. Hamburg also is close from a secondary City being the 7th largest in Europe, Berlin as well or even Cologne (has a population of more than 1 million (!), but suffers from being so close to DUS, FRA, AMS as you said). But from an aviation standpoint -- thats a different story.
Barcelona came a long way in the last 15 years. If I remember correctly in the 2000s there was not such a big run to Barcelona especially from the US, that developed afterwards. When Continental announced Barcelona in 2005 it could very well be considered secondary I think.

CALMSP wrote:
also had STR on the list. Certainly do miss those options to a number of locations, hopefully the 321XLR will be able to replicate for either new destinations or maybe some returns.


I concealed STR on purpose because it was started by United. But you are absolutely right -- but it didnt last long unfortunately.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:45 pm

CO was a much smaller airline and was laser-focused on EWR.

When you merge with a much larger airline, things that made sense before me not make sense now. There are also other priorities for the new larger airline.

These routes were obviously some-what successful for CO. They lasted a while.

But maybe UA, with other major gateways, wasnt interested in secondary cities on narrowbodies once a day to EWR?
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:55 pm

I think it's funny to call Berlin a secondary city. It's the largest city in, and the capital of the largest country and economy in Western Europe.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
I think it's funny to call Berlin a secondary city. It's the largest city in, and the capital of the largest country and economy in Western Europe.



But, in terms of TA travel, Berlin is secondary in Germany to FRA and MUC
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
I think it's funny to call Berlin a secondary city. It's the largest city in, and the capital of the largest country and economy in Western Europe.


Very true indeed. Seems Berlin can't sustain long hauls for the most part though. Perhaps that will change with BER opening but the CO/UA route between TXL and EWR is one of the few that has endured and seen upgauges.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:05 pm

codc10 wrote:
EWR-HAM was one of those business-oriented 'thin' routes, but captured a reasonable premium niche, though did not generate sufficient demand in the deep winter to be profitable with a widebody. My understanding is that the market wasn't really compatible with seasonal service, as (while quite lovely) it's not a major tourist region, and business travel required year-round service. The combination of required aircraft performance and the demand profile meant it needed to be a year-round service, or nothing.


Very interesting, informative post, thanks a lot for that! You are absolutely right about HAM. This market only works year-round, this is what many people dont want to understand ("does not even work seasonal" etc). In fact it worked yearround for 11 years and failed after only two seasonal summer seasons.
Hamburg lacks those hordes of American tourists flooding the City in the summer months -- a flight to HAM lives from Business travelers and also for a large part from VFR traffic, which is not only low yielding as well, but also some American tourists and a lot of German tourists of course (high GDP and Income in Hamburg!). But the first two groups do not only fly from Mai to early October -- especially Business travelers. For Business travelers the Summer is even a slower time. In fact October is the busiest month of the year on NYC-HAM, and United stops their seasonal flight on October 4/5. Also April and December are very busy, both not covered with that summer seasonal as well.

But the problem as you said are the winter months, to be precise January and February. The 757s struggled hard, but the XLR should do better, at least enough to reliably fly that route in winter.

Here you can see the amound of passengers each month on HAM-NYC in 2019, October really stands out, its like this every year. I think this is an overlap of the increasing Business travel after Summer and vacation in October.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
I think it's funny to call Berlin a secondary city. It's the largest city in, and the capital of the largest country and economy in Western Europe.


In aviation terms it is a secondary city, and it was even more in the early/mid 2000s. Even now Berlin can only sustain one yearround US flight. In fact the basic demand to North America from Berlin is around the same as from HAM and DUS. Berlin itself may be big but the Catchment is very small.

Cointrin330 wrote:
Very true indeed. Seems Berlin can't sustain long hauls for the most part though. Perhaps that will change with BER opening but the CO/UA route between TXL and EWR is one of the few that has endured and seen upgauges.


There is only room for one yearround route, all those other seasonal Berlin flights live from "rich" American tourists. But these tend to only appear in Summer.
BER will change absolutely nothing. It will just be a different place where the planes land and unload/load their passengers, the City will remain the same.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:16 pm

The real answer why these are no longer operating is the introduction of the JV with LH/LX/OS/AC. It's not UA's decision alone anymore but a joint decision among the partners. I'm sure that LH preferred routing the secondary markets in Europe through FRA/MUC/ZRH rather than direct from EWR. Coupled with the fact that the 757s were having trouble consistently making the westbound journey without a fuel stop and those 75s were needed on the transcon markets for the Business Class seating.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:17 pm

I was on that inaugural EWR - HAM and remember the water cannon salute so thanks for the pic. Cant believe it was 15 years ago. Also my first time on a 757 TATL and I recall upon boarding it felt odd to be on a narrowbody for an overnight flight to Europe.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:43 pm

Someone83 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The codeshares with SAS was likely the demise of the CPH and OSL flights. ARN is for sure next to go as SAS is just a household name at EWR these days.


Did they actually ever codeshare? From my impression their relationship with SAS after they started routes to Scandinavia never was very cozy

OSL did start in 2004, just after SAS cancelled their OSL-EWR route. When SAS restarted OSL-EWR, Continental didn't last long

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... 27_01.aspx


I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:54 pm

DLHAM wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The problem isn't EWR (nor NYC generally), it's HAM. For its size and its income it's just not a successful TATL destination (or origin).


I would definitely call this route sucessful at least until the desastrous CASM 3 class "AOG-767s" came in late 2015. Until then there were 11 summer seasons and 10 winter seasons with an average load of 89% in Summer and 78% in Winter -- overall 84% which is not too bad I think (actually even more than 84% because there were fewer flights in winter season). In fact after Emirates left HAM-JFK there were several years with a north of 90% loadfactor over the whole year. No Airline keeps a route that long - yearround - if its not sucessful.

Especially NYC-HAM is a very large market and even one of the largest unserved ones...


Loads don't matter. Full planes at garbage fares still lose money. Was any legacy carrier flying any route HAM-USA last year, year-round? I'll state it again - the problem is HAM. STR and MUC sustain year-round services. 'One of the largest unserved' still means unserved.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Loads don't matter. Full planes at garbage fares still lose money. Was any legacy carrier flying any route HAM-USA last year, year-round? I'll state it again - the problem is HAM. STR and MUC sustain year-round services. 'One of the largest unserved' still means unserved.


Non existance does not meant that it doesnt work. If this was the case there would be no new routes at all. Continental and also United showed that it works -- yearround with overall passenger numbers that were significantly lower. I dont think they were flying around garbage fares for 13 years. NYC-HAM is a market that can only work yearround with a full service carrier. Seasonal could maybe work with a LCC. We will see what the future will be like. I think the A321XLR will help markets like Hamburg a lot.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:34 pm

DLHAM wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Loads don't matter. Full planes at garbage fares still lose money. Was any legacy carrier flying any route HAM-USA last year, year-round? I'll state it again - the problem is HAM. STR and MUC sustain year-round services. 'One of the largest unserved' still means unserved.


Non existance does not meant that it doesnt work. If this was the case there would be no new routes at all. Continental and also United showed that it works -- yearround with overall passenger numbers that were significantly lower. I dont think they were flying around garbage fares for 13 years. NYC-HAM is a market that can only work yearround with a full service carrier. Seasonal could maybe work with a LCC. We will see what the future will be like. I think the A321XLR will help markets like Hamburg a lot.


I do think it will be a very long time though before a route like this comes back, be it seasonal or year-round, given the situation. Experimenting with secondary markets will likely take a while to come back and only once traffic recovers.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:46 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The codeshares with SAS was likely the demise of the CPH and OSL flights. ARN is for sure next to go as SAS is just a household name at EWR these days.


Did they actually ever codeshare? From my impression their relationship with SAS after they started routes to Scandinavia never was very cozy

OSL did start in 2004, just after SAS cancelled their OSL-EWR route. When SAS restarted OSL-EWR, Continental didn't last long

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... 27_01.aspx


I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.


SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:39 pm

N649DL wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Someone83 wrote:

Did they actually ever codeshare? From my impression their relationship with SAS after they started routes to Scandinavia never was very cozy

OSL did start in 2004, just after SAS cancelled their OSL-EWR route. When SAS restarted OSL-EWR, Continental didn't last long

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... 27_01.aspx


I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.


SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.


That's just a function of both being in Star Alliance. Anyone flying J on any Star carrier can use the Polaris lounge at the respective departing airport.

I don't believe that UA codeshares on Trans Atlantic SK flights, just short haul domestic sectors in Europe/US. But I could be wrong.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:11 pm

N649DL wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Someone83 wrote:

Did they actually ever codeshare? From my impression their relationship with SAS after they started routes to Scandinavia never was very cozy

OSL did start in 2004, just after SAS cancelled their OSL-EWR route. When SAS restarted OSL-EWR, Continental didn't last long

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... 27_01.aspx


I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.


SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.


That's just because they're both in *A. If you're Star Gold or higher, you can use any Star carrier's lounge if you're on an international itinerary, even if you're not flying that carrier (and indeed, they don't need to even codeshare on the flight you're taking or be anywhere on your itinerary). I've used LH's lounge while flying LHR-IAD on UA and LHR-ARN on SK, for example.

As far as I know, they don't codeshare at all. They certainly don't on SK's flight to IAD, which would be a prime candidate as UA doesn't fly CPH-IAD. I don't recall seeing SK codes on UA flights out of IAD as well.
Last edited by IADCA on Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:12 pm

Also there is a different between Codeshare and Joint Venture if I am not mistaken. But I am pretty sure SAS and United have no Joint Venture, but Lufthansa and United do.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:14 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Also there is a different between Codeshare and Joint Venture if I am not mistaken. But I am pretty sure SAS and United have no Joint Venture, but Lufthansa and United do.


Yes, but it's not really relevant here except that one reason UA and SK are not close is because of the A++ JV with the LH Group, which SK is not a part of.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:14 pm

airzim wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Bostrom wrote:

I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.


SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.


That's just a function of both being in Star Alliance. Anyone flying J on any Star carrier can use the Polaris lounge at the respective departing airport.

I don't believe that UA codeshares on Trans Atlantic SK flights, just short haul domestic sectors in Europe/US. But I could be wrong.


Dang you might actually be right. Why would UA not codeshare with SK on TATL flights? I always thought that was part of the reasoning why UA dropped EWR-OSL/CPH and made ARN seasonal.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:56 pm

IADCA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Bostrom wrote:

I don't think they code share, when I did a dummy booking OSL-EWR on United last year they suggested routes via Stockholm or Frankfurt. But the ARN route probably got a bit more breathing space when Delta closed the ARN-JFK route and even more when Norwegian closed the same route.


SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.


That's just because they're both in *A. If you're Star Gold or higher, you can use any Star carrier's lounge if you're on an international itinerary, even if you're not flying that carrier (and indeed, they don't need to even codeshare on the flight you're taking or be anywhere on your itinerary). I've used LH's lounge while flying LHR-IAD on UA and LHR-ARN on SK, for example.

As far as I know, they don't codeshare at all. They certainly don't on SK's flight to IAD, which would be a prime candidate as UA doesn't fly CPH-IAD. I don't recall seeing SK codes on UA flights out of IAD as well.

They do codeshare but not on the TA flights (and never have to my knowledge). UA have their code on SAS flights from Scandinavia to AMS/ZRH/BRU/CDG, whilst SAS have their code on some UA flights from EWR, IAD, ORD and SFO on short- and medium haul flights.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:16 pm

[/quote]

Although a low yield market, calling BCN a "secondary" market is a bit of a stretch IMO, it is the biggest cruise port in the Med so BCN sustains non-stop service to multiple US cities by UA/DL/AA. If I recall good enough it is JFK, EWR, MIA, IAD, ATL and ORD. Also have to add DY and LV which have also served BCN-US in the recent past.

In the case of CGN, it hurts to be so close to DUS.[/quote]

I think calling BCN a 'secondary' market has to be taken with a bit of historical context. Now, BCN has nonstops to all of these cities, but back in the mid 1990s, BCN to the US was a novelty idea. Flights to Spain in general were only available from a handful of cities (NYC, MIA, DFW) and almost everything went to MAD. IIRC ORD didn't get IB to MAD (with an AA codeshare) until 1998 or so. It was ORD's first nonstop to Spain, IINM.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
Tokushima
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:52 pm

Speaking of "secondary" cities, especially in Germany, have there ever been non-stop or even direct flights from NYC or any other US/North American city to HAJ? I know it only has about 1/4 the population of HAM and is quite close to many other German cities (only about 160 km/100 mi driving distance from HAM itself!), but it is certainly a well-known city. And yes, I did Google it to try to find the answer, but was unable to. Thank you in advance to anyone who can answer my question.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:12 pm

Tokushima wrote:
Speaking of "secondary" cities, especially in Germany, have there ever been non-stop or even direct flights from NYC or any other US/North American city to HAJ? I know it only has about 1/4 the population of HAM and is quite close to many other German cities (only about 160 km/100 mi driving distance from HAM itself!), but it is certainly a well-known city. And yes, I did Google it to try to find the answer, but was unable to. Thank you in advance to anyone who can answer my question.


AFAIK yes, if I remember correctly Condor operated flights from Hannover to Toronto with a stop in Moncton/Canada in the early 2000s -- flown with 757s. But that was only some low frequency charter thing and I think it didnt last very long.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:19 pm

SASViking wrote:
IADCA wrote:
N649DL wrote:

SAS and UA definitely code share (and I think SAS and CO did as well as they operated out of EWR in Terminal C in the 1990s for a bit.) I just watched a trip report yesterday of a traveler who flew SAS on ORD-CPH and went out of his way to use the Polaris Lounge at ORD since he was in J. If you're flying SAS and allowed to use the exclusive Polaris lounge, then that relationship between both airlines has to be somewhat cozy.


That's just because they're both in *A. If you're Star Gold or higher, you can use any Star carrier's lounge if you're on an international itinerary, even if you're not flying that carrier (and indeed, they don't need to even codeshare on the flight you're taking or be anywhere on your itinerary). I've used LH's lounge while flying LHR-IAD on UA and LHR-ARN on SK, for example.

As far as I know, they don't codeshare at all. They certainly don't on SK's flight to IAD, which would be a prime candidate as UA doesn't fly CPH-IAD. I don't recall seeing SK codes on UA flights out of IAD as well.

They do codeshare but not on the TA flights (and never have to my knowledge). UA have their code on SAS flights from Scandinavia to AMS/ZRH/BRU/CDG, whilst SAS have their code on some UA flights from EWR, IAD, ORD and SFO on short- and medium haul flights.


IIRC, EWR-DUS didn't work out for CO or UA either (on multiple tries) or LH.
 
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:19 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Edinburgh - still operating (Corona aside!)


No surprise there. Edinburgh has become an extremely popular tourist destination for Americans. In fact, it looks like EDI's passenger throughput doubled between 2002 and 2018. GLA, which I believe until the 2000's was Scotland's primary airport, seems to have stagnated during that same time.

DLHAM wrote:
Belfast - axed in 2017


I'm not sure Northern Ireland is a big draw for Americans (yet). Most of the folks in this country with the means to visit Europe and support a service like this probably remember "The Troubles" all too well...

DLHAM wrote:
Berlin - still operating


No surprise there either! Berlin may not have the corporate business traffic that other German cities have (yet), but is a massively popular tourist destination. Strong ties between UA and LH can't hurt either. Ditto for the new airport replacing TXL.

DLHAM wrote:
Bristol - axed in 2010


I'm surprised this one was added in the first place. Obviously it was a rather short-lived service, and that isn't surprising. I can't imagine there is much business and/or leisure traffic between the U.S. and Bristol.

DLHAM wrote:
Stockholm - seasonal since 2015 (next one to go?)


The demise of Norwegian long haul will probably save this service. I believe ARN may be getting U.S. Pre-clearance soon too? That may make it a very popular U.S. gateway from Europe, akin to DUB. Then again, it may just be easier to codeshare with SAS.

DLHAM wrote:
Hamburg - seasonal in 2017, axed 2018


Given the failure of secondary German markets like CGN, DUS and STR, the demise of this route really didn't come as a surprise.

DLHAM wrote:
Barcelona - still operating


Like Edinburgh and Berlin, Barcelona has only become more popular with American tourists since this service began. No surprise to see it thriving.

DLHAM wrote:
Copenhagen - axed 2012


I believe UA cut this route in favor of codesharing with SK? Even if they had not, this service probably wouldn't have survived the onslaught of Norwegian long haul service between CPH and the U.S.

DLHAM wrote:
Cologne - axed in 2008 already


DLHAM wrote:
Also Birmingham and Oslo were stopped a few years ago -- I dont know when they started.


Isn't Birmingham quite accessible from London? At some point travelers may prefer taking surface transport to the nearby hub that offers greater options (and likely also lower fares and planes with better product) rather than using a smaller airport like BHX.

OSL was probably a casualty of Norwegian's wildly unprofitable long haul expansion efforts.

DLHAM wrote:
So for example except this seasonal 757 to Stockholm United left all of Scandinavia.


Hardly surprising after Norwegian's reckless long haul expansion. It's not like AA and DL have had much luck in Scandinavia lately either!

DLHAM wrote:
Why cant United make flights work today that Continental could 15 years ago?


Times have changed. The 757 is an aging aircraft, and far less competitive to the 787s and A350s today than the 747s and 767s back then. Also, consider the fact that CO had few uses for its transatlantic 757s beyond EWR-Europe. There was only so much they could do in the CLE-Europe and IAH-Latin America realm...

UA, on the other hand, can use the transatlantic 757s on IAD-Europe and even ORD-Europe. Markets that you mentioned, like BCN and EDI, have benefited from the availability of 757s to bypass what was before the pandemic a chronically congested EWR hub. It will be very interesting to see what transatlantic services (and aircraft) do and don't come back.

DLHAM wrote:
Also: what do you think how things will develop for secondary EU markets after corona?


Very slowly. Americans will probably feel a lot more comfortable visiting a city like London or Paris, what with their world class healthcare institutions and myriad of flight options to return home, as oppose to the more obscure destinations like Belfast or Lyon.

DLHAM wrote:
I think this whole crisis will turn out to be a big opportunity at the end for many of these markets to get back transatlantic services. The A321XLR will help a lot. After passenger numbers recovered they will be much higher than they used to be in 2004-2006 and given that the XLR is much more economical than the 757 it could even be possible to sucessful establish markets that failed quickly even with the 757, such as Cologne and Stuttgart.


The A321XLR has the potential to be a game changer, but could just as easily "connect the dots" as they could foray into risky new markets. As was the case with the 757s, Latin America and Hawaii will also be competing against Europe for these resources.

DLHAM wrote:
I think Continental was very smart to fly their 757s to those secondary markets because they could charge an extra for offering a nonstop flight as many of these cities lacked direct competition to the US. I hope United will do the same with the XLR!


Are enough people willing to pay a premium, though? It's awfully tough to get more than a few people to pay for the convenience of, say, HAM when they can easily take a train or drive on the autobahn from FRA.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:28 pm

I flew on the EDI-EWR route with CO in 2004... must have been close to when they started the route. Great flight. Good crew and service. The chicken dish they served was some of the most succulent chicken I've ever eaten. I'm not making that up either.

On the way home I got to talking to the American tourist sitting beside me. They said they were glad there was now a direct flight to EDI from EWR. Previously they had to go through GLA and then make the 1 and a bit hour bus journey to their intended destination: Edinburgh.
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Re: 15 years ago: CO expands to "secondary" EU cities with 757s

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:47 pm

I remember CO started Belfast, Bristol, and another UK destination because they received subsidies. When those subsidies ran out and oil prices high, Belfast and Bristol were among the first to get the axe.
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