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HNLSLCPDX
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Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:40 pm

Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:44 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.

Wouldn’t it be easier just to get a codeshare with someone.
 
WN732
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:48 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.


The only reason Aloha did that was due to LAS and PHX being too far for their 73G to handle nonstop. Now we have A321NEO with extra tanks and fuel efficiency that can make them nonstop.

And you cannot be a Hawaii based carrier and serve the mainland without flying to LAS.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:09 pm

WN732 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.


The only reason Aloha did that was due to LAS and PHX being too far for their 73G to handle nonstop. Now we have A321NEO with extra tanks and fuel efficiency that can make them nonstop.

And you cannot be a Hawaii based carrier and serve the mainland without flying to LAS.


Well that would be the same point of connecting places such as DEN and SLC.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:09 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:25 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
MIflyer12 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.


PAE, BLI, EUG, FAT? Those are the only ones that come to mind as far as secondary markets that would make sense and are doable with the A321neo.
 
flyoregon
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:45 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
MIflyer12 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.


PAE, BLI, EUG, FAT? Those are the only ones that come to mind as far as secondary markets that would make sense and are doable with the A321neo.


I would say MFR or even RDM before EUG.

I know G4 tried it with 757's a few years back out of EUG, not sure how well it did. RDM/MFR are both growing and the Bend area is pretty affluent. That said, I think it's still many, many, many years away if at all.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:53 am

Whats the point. Waste a bunch of money with random tag flights?

Unless they base aircraft on the mainland and really want to make a go of things, a random flight or two will hardly do anything more than lose money as they will have virtually zero pricing power or market position to utilize.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:29 am

I think a better plan would be having 1-2 nonstops a week with code-shares the other days. However, I feel like AS has better leverage than HA to do something like that with 100% their own (including express) aircraft. Of course, the 321NEO has more range, so some of those places like GEG would be better suited to A321s than 737s. Either way, I agree with the sentiment that tag-on flights from LAX/LGB/SNA/SAN/etc to small mountain west cities would likely be money losers; there would probably be little to no O&D traffic on the tag on flights without a major sacrifice on yields.
 
seat1a
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:15 am

Will HA be back in the SMF, OAK and SJC markets to all the neighbor islands with NEO's? I believe these would be a priority over tags, or even moves into SLC or DEN (with NEO or code-share?). Does anyone know what west coast markets are key for them? (Presume it's LAX, SFO and SEA being those see A330's).
 
WN732
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:54 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
WN732 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.


The only reason Aloha did that was due to LAS and PHX being too far for their 73G to handle nonstop. Now we have A321NEO with extra tanks and fuel efficiency that can make them nonstop.

And you cannot be a Hawaii based carrier and serve the mainland without flying to LAS.


Well that would be the same point of connecting places such as DEN and SLC.


I'm not sure if that's possible for the NEO. It barely makes PHX as it is. The minimum is still the 757 for those routes.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:12 am

LAXintl wrote:
Whats the point. Waste a bunch of money with random tag flights?

Unless they base aircraft on the mainland and really want to make a go of things, a random flight or two will hardly do anything more than lose money as they will have virtually zero pricing power or market position to utilize.

The only thing I can see is feeding their a330s at some gateway and then connecting a bunch of people. But a codeshare seems better for this.
 
jonair8
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:14 am

HA actually did this in the mid 2000s with the ONT route. They routed HNL-ONT-LAS and LAS-ONT-HNL toward the final days of them operating it because the loads weren't good enough in a D10 or 763 for them in ONT. It was their final attempt at trying to make ONT work, and even with a LAS tag it couldn't be done, and ONT was dropped shortly after. Especially after this experiment, I think they found that it isn't really in HA's best interest.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:07 am

HA costs are so high compared to everyone else flying around the inter mainland theirs no way it would work.
Their best bet is codeshare.

AQ tried small inter mainland was horrible.
Be for they shutdown they lobbied for 2 Daily DCA slots to fly 2 SNA-DCA one morning and one daily Red eye. If awarded SNA-SMF and SNA-RNO were on the chopping block.

Flyguy
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hawaiian717
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:12 am

jonair8 wrote:
HA actually did this in the mid 2000s with the ONT route. They routed HNL-ONT-LAS and LAS-ONT-HNL toward the final days of them operating it because the loads weren't good enough in a D10 or 763 for them in ONT. It was their final attempt at trying to make ONT work, and even with a LAS tag it couldn't be done, and ONT was dropped shortly after. Especially after this experiment, I think they found that it isn't really in HA's best interest.


And before ONT and before they served HNL-LAS nonstop as a scheduled service (they did it as Vacations Hawaii charters), they did HNL-LAX-LAS and back.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:35 am

I think the best thing HA could do is get some A321XLRs. WN is the biggest new threat HA has faced in years and one way to meet that threat is to offer something WN can't - nonstop service deeper in to the Lower 48. HA seemed to do well with JFK and BOS. Perhaps something like 4x weekly to PHL and IAD (or BWI since HNL-IAD is covered by UA) with an A321XLR? Smaller cities such as AUS, STL, CLE, etc 2x weekly, especially if tour operators get on board? People pay a premium for nonstop service and WN's passengers would need to connect from any of these cities.

They can also be used for AKL and BNE during times of lower demand.

HA offering their own connecting service at LAX or wherever doesn't offer anything unique.
FLYi
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:09 am

Of course it is possible, but I would be absolutely shocked if HA were to do this rather than codeshares. The only tag ons I can recall with Hawaiian were 2x daily LAS-LAX with DC-10s back in the day which I don't think they even sold tickets on, otherwise Hawaiian has not been a fan of that kind of flying. Aloha, however, had a handful of routes like OAK-RNO\LAS and some others and actually did sell tickets on them. I have several Aloha safety cards just because friends flew them on those routes from OAK.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:47 am

Chasensfo wrote:
Of course it is possible, but I would be absolutely shocked if HA were to do this rather than codeshares. The only tag ons I can recall with Hawaiian were 2x daily LAS-LAX with DC-10s back in the day which I don't think they even sold tickets on, otherwise Hawaiian has not been a fan of that kind of flying. Aloha, however, had a handful of routes like OAK-RNO\LAS and some others and actually did sell tickets on them. I have several Aloha safety cards just because friends flew them on those routes from OAK.


HA has flown a LAX-PDX scheduled flight before on a DC-10 & it was once a week on Fridays at 5:15 am - 7:45 am am out of LAX as flight 25 (the usual flight # PDX-HNL). - http://www.departedflights.com/PDX95p1.html
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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ADent
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:20 am

DEN was 2x HNL and 1x KOA, LIH, OGG pre-Covid.

I assume HA is a better experience than UA, but changing planes in LGB at a scissor hub doesn’t seem like a way to steal money from UA.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:24 pm

flyPIT wrote:
I think the best thing HA could do is get some A321XLRs. WN is the biggest new threat HA has faced in years and one way to meet that threat is to offer something WN can't - nonstop service deeper in to the Lower 48. HA seemed to do well with JFK and BOS. Perhaps something like 4x weekly to PHL and IAD (or BWI since HNL-IAD is covered by UA) with an A321XLR? Smaller cities such as AUS, STL, CLE, etc 2x weekly, especially if tour operators get on board? People pay a premium for nonstop service and WN's passengers would need to connect from any of these cities.

They can also be used for AKL and BNE during times of lower demand.

HA offering their own connecting service at LAX or wherever doesn't offer anything unique.


I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?
 
WN732
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:35 pm

flyfresno wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
I think the best thing HA could do is get some A321XLRs. WN is the biggest new threat HA has faced in years and one way to meet that threat is to offer something WN can't - nonstop service deeper in to the Lower 48. HA seemed to do well with JFK and BOS. Perhaps something like 4x weekly to PHL and IAD (or BWI since HNL-IAD is covered by UA) with an A321XLR? Smaller cities such as AUS, STL, CLE, etc 2x weekly, especially if tour operators get on board? People pay a premium for nonstop service and WN's passengers would need to connect from any of these cities.

They can also be used for AKL and BNE during times of lower demand.

HA offering their own connecting service at LAX or wherever doesn't offer anything unique.


I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:50 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
The only tag ons I can recall with Hawaiian were 2x daily LAS-LAX with DC-10s back in the day which I don't think they even sold tickets on, otherwise Hawaiian has not been a fan of that kind of flying.


LAX-LAS was available for sale on HA without continuing to/from HNL.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:35 pm

WN732 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
I think the best thing HA could do is get some A321XLRs. WN is the biggest new threat HA has faced in years and one way to meet that threat is to offer something WN can't - nonstop service deeper in to the Lower 48. HA seemed to do well with JFK and BOS. Perhaps something like 4x weekly to PHL and IAD (or BWI since HNL-IAD is covered by UA) with an A321XLR? Smaller cities such as AUS, STL, CLE, etc 2x weekly, especially if tour operators get on board? People pay a premium for nonstop service and WN's passengers would need to connect from any of these cities.

They can also be used for AKL and BNE during times of lower demand.

HA offering their own connecting service at LAX or wherever doesn't offer anything unique.


I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


That's sort of what I figured...
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:18 pm

flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.
FLYi
 
WN732
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:35 pm

flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Count me as mistaken - but no thank you on that flight.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:16 pm

flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


These numbers are the best of circumstances. The 737-900ER should theoretically have no trouble on LAX-HNL, but they are often restricted in the winter...I've seen up to 40 seats blocked. So, again, is it practical?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:27 pm

flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Max Q
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:46 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.




That can’t be correct, at Continental and United we flew the 764 non stop, year round between EWR and HNL and didn’t have an issue, I had a flight time of 12.5 hours once in the winter



Furthermore, the 763 has more range than the 764 so your contention makes no sense
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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flyPIT
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:49 pm

flyfresno wrote:
These numbers are the best of circumstances. The 737-900ER should theoretically have no trouble on LAX-HNL, but they are often restricted in the winter...I've seen up to 40 seats blocked. So, again, is it practical?

In the case of a PHL-HNL route with an A321XLR you still have over 400nm to work with. Using your example of a B739ER and blocking off seats, the fact that they continue do it answers your question about practicality in that scenario.

Varsity1 wrote:
Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

ETOPS alternates will be closer to the airplane than the destination airport until crossing your final ETP, and in many cases it will still be closer until well past the final ETP. In the case of West Coast-HNL your alternate will be either OGG, KOA, or ITO, all of which are closer than HNL if coasting out anywhere from SAN to SEA.

Adding another 500-600 miles to dodge weather? That's well over an additional hour of flying time you are taking the liberty to add for a lateral deviation. Deviating 500-600nm north or south does not mean the flight is extended by that amount.


So lets say there is the rare fuel stop westbound in the winter. I don't think that by itself will make or break a route decision. Bare in mind my example of PHL-HNL was using a more extreme one near the airplane's maximum range but there are plenty of other cities west of the eastern seaboard that can be served. I still think the A321XLR can have a significant role at HA.
FLYi
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:18 pm

flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
These numbers are the best of circumstances. The 737-900ER should theoretically have no trouble on LAX-HNL, but they are often restricted in the winter...I've seen up to 40 seats blocked. So, again, is it practical?

In the case of a PHL-HNL route with an A321XLR you still have over 400nm to work with. Using your example of a B739ER and blocking off seats, the fact that they continue do it answers your question about practicality in that scenario.

Varsity1 wrote:
Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

ETOPS alternates will be closer to the airplane than the destination airport until crossing your final ETP, and in many cases it will still be closer until well past the final ETP. In the case of West Coast-HNL your alternate will be either OGG, KOA, or ITO, all of which are closer than HNL if coasting out anywhere from SAN to SEA.

Adding another 500-600 miles to dodge weather? That's well over an additional hour of flying time you are taking the liberty to add for a lateral deviation. Deviating 500-600nm north or south does not mean the flight is extended by that amount.


So lets say there is the rare fuel stop westbound in the winter. I don't think that by itself will make or break a route decision. Bare in mind my example of PHL-HNL was using a more extreme one near the airplane's maximum range but there are plenty of other cities west of the eastern seaboard that can be served. I still think the A321XLR can have a significant role at HA.


ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% more fuel. The OGG-LAS flight was determined to be about as far as HA can comfortably operate their 321's & that's with a 4;30 am arrival & a 6 am departure at LAS.
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friendlyskies22
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:27 pm

No one, including HA is going to expand any flying until the HI governor decides to stop the 14 day quarantine.
They just extended it another 30 days (July 31) which kills the summer business and probably the 4Q as well.
I feel sorry for all the restaurant, hotel, retail and other visitor-related employees out of work.
Maybe they'll get back into sugar cane?
Aloha (maybe in 2021...)
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:21 pm

RWA380 wrote:
ETOPS 180 requires an additional 10% more fuel. The OGG-LAS flight was determined to be about as far as HA can comfortably operate their 321's & that's with a 4;30 am arrival & a 6 am departure at LAS.


Unless it has changed ETOPS reserves are the greater of standard reserves or Critical Point fuel. I searched my company's manual, I didn't see any mention of a 10% fuel reserve for ETOPS 180 above and beyond what is already required.

Are you talking about the ability to use a reserve of 10% of enroute fuel under Flag Ops? If so, using a redispatch point before coasting out (such as SFO), you only need 10% of ~5 hours, or approximately 30 minutes. This of course does not include your alternate fuel.

Remember, the manufactures range specs already include a standard 45 minute fuel reserve.
FLYi
 
seat1a
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:33 am

Varsity1 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.


Slightly different question, can the 321NEO or NEWO XLR do Honolulu to Tahiti, Auckland or Sydney?
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:09 am

seat1a wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:



The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.


Slightly different question, can the 321NEO or NEWO XLR do Honolulu to Tahiti, Auckland or Sydney?

Kind of doubt it. Apparently, it's doable from the 4,700nm range Airbus advertises: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=4700nm%40h ... U=mi&E=180
But these sticker ranges are seldom the same as the real world (winds/alternates/etc.)
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seat1a
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:16 am

SumChristianus wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.


Slightly different question, can the 321NEO or NEWO XLR do Honolulu to Tahiti, Auckland or Sydney?

Kind of doubt it. Apparently, it's doable from the 4,700nm range Airbus advertises: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=4700nm%40h ... U=mi&E=180
But these sticker ranges are seldom the same as the real world (winds/alternates/etc.)


Thank you. Agreed, sure looks like it. I wonder if a slightly more premium configuration would make it doable.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:24 pm

flyPIT wrote:
In the case of a PHL-HNL route with an A321XLR you still have over 400nm to work with. Using your example of a B739ER and blocking off seats, the fact that they continue do it answers your question about practicality in that scenario.


1) This happened three winters ago. Over the last two winters, the vast majority of those flights switched back to the 757, so yeah, it does.
2) I think you are focusing way too much on the range distance number, as if we are talking about cars on a road, when time (and fuel burn) is actually way more important. JFK-HNL, for example, is usually scheduled at 1:30 longer than the other direction, but I've seen it block well over 11:30, more than 3:00 longer than the HNL-JFK leg (which is in turn shorter, of course, than normal), on multiple occasions over a winter season. Thats a huge hit on fuel you need to take, so you then either sacrifice range or passengers (and/or cargo). You also have to factor in that range decreases with additional fuel since you have to burn more to climb with and carry that extra fuel, plus you often can't make it up to your max altitude initially when you are carrying that much fuel, so that can also increase fuel burn, among other things. Airbus is using those numbers to try to sell the plane, they are the absolute best of situations.
3) This person appears to have done a fairly exhaustive analysis of the 321XLR, and they don't even see ORD-HNL as feasible in the winter (but do see it as capable of doing Texas, and other similar distance routes). https://epsilonaviation.wordpress.com/2 ... 321xlr-do/
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:30 pm

No one, including HA is going to expand any flying until the HI governor decides to stop the 14 day quarantine.
They just extended it another 30 days (July 31) which kills the summer business and probably the 4Q as well.
I feel sorry for all the restaurant, hotel, retail and other visitor-related employees out of work.
Maybe they'll get back into sugar cane?
Aloha (maybe in 2021...)


Exactly! Not to thread drift too far, but HA can't even seriously consider options like the thread starter is asking about until the quarantine is ended. I mean, they can I suppose, but...

The State of Hawaii has been served with several lawsuits over the past week concerning the quarantine, right to travel between the several states, and the unfairness of not allowing vacation rentals to be open, yet resorts are allowed to be open (quarantining customers). We shall see if the 14 day quarantine survives those suits.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:57 pm

flyfresno wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
In the case of a PHL-HNL route with an A321XLR you still have over 400nm to work with. Using your example of a B739ER and blocking off seats, the fact that they continue do it answers your question about practicality in that scenario.


1) This happened three winters ago. Over the last two winters, the vast majority of those flights switched back to the 757, so yeah, it does.
2) I think you are focusing way too much on the range distance number, as if we are talking about cars on a road, when time (and fuel burn) is actually way more important. JFK-HNL, for example, is usually scheduled at 1:30 longer than the other direction, but I've seen it block well over 11:30, more than 3:00 longer than the HNL-JFK leg (which is in turn shorter, of course, than normal), on multiple occasions over a winter season. Thats a huge hit on fuel you need to take, so you then either sacrifice range or passengers (and/or cargo). You also have to factor in that range decreases with additional fuel since you have to burn more to climb with and carry that extra fuel, plus you often can't make it up to your max altitude initially when you are carrying that much fuel, so that can also increase fuel burn, among other things. Airbus is using those numbers to try to sell the plane, they are the absolute best of situations.
3) This person appears to have done a fairly exhaustive analysis of the 321XLR, and they don't even see ORD-HNL as feasible in the winter (but do see it as capable of doing Texas, and other similar distance routes). https://epsilonaviation.wordpress.com/2 ... 321xlr-do/


No need for the aerodynamics lesson. I already stated perhaps PHL is an extreme example yet there are plenty of potential unserved markets west of the Eastern Seaboard. Furthermore, from the blog you linked:
"In flight entertainment, lie flat beds and amenities to cater on such flights make the aircraft heavier. As a rule of thumb we will assume that the aircraft is 10kg heavier per passenger and 100kg per lie flat bed."
So right off the bat those numbers are compromised because HA A321s do not have seat back IFE and it would remain to be seen if they would have lie flat seats.

The A321LXR has a published range of 1,000nm more than HA's A321NEO. The airplane isn't even in service yet; often performance guarantees are exceeded as improvements are made going forward. My greater point is that the A321XLR would open up a lot of new opportunities for HA. It would also allow them to fly deeper in to the US without using a widebody. This in turn can give them an advantage over WN which will need to connect passengers on the west coast. If you can't see this then there is nothing else to be said.

The blogger you linked also agrees it would make a lot of sense:
"Hawaiian Airlines already operates the A321neo. Therefore an A321XLR order would make a lot of sense given fleet commonality."

I didn't even think about GUM and Japan. I think the A321XLR would be even a greater addition for HA today than I did yesterday.
Last edited by flyPIT on Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FLYi
 
simairlinenet
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:05 pm

A quick (and hopefully gentle) reminder from the vocabulary police:
Inter = between, e.g., inter-island is between islands
Intra = within, e.g., intra-city is within a city

What we're talking about here is intra-mainland service
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:27 pm

I could see them with a bit from SFO to western/Midwest cities and then onward to the islands. Given AS continuing to downsize SFO even per covid, there is an opportunity for a carrier once travel picks up.
 
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aloha73g
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:53 pm

AQ’s routes from SNA to RNO, PHX, and SMF served a dual purpose. The main reason they existed was because SNA was AQ’s most profitable destination but they were limited on how many aircraft could park there overnight; hence the tags to other destinations (late departure from SNA, overnight elsewhere, morning flight back to SNA).

They stimulated bit of connecting traffic and some O&D but the main reason was to increase SNA O&D to Hawai‘i.

-Aloha!
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PhilMcCrackin
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:36 pm

Max Q wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:



The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.


Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.




That can’t be correct, at Continental and United we flew the 764 non stop, year round between EWR and HNL and didn’t have an issue, I had a flight time of 12.5 hours once in the winter

Furthermore, the 763 has more range than the 764 so your contention makes no sense




Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. Condor was running a 763 from FRA-PHX last summer and that's 700 miles longer than EWR-HNL.
 
BeachBoy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:12 am

Compared to North American tag-on flts w/ the A321neo, I thought it was gonna be more likely that HA would start triangle South Pacific routes like HNL-PPT-RAR-HNL, HNL-PPG-APW-HNL, HNL-MAJ-KWA-HNL, HNL-NAN-TBU-HNL.

I guess the market is not there.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:36 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.

Hawaiian is a US Domestic and International Carrier. They really don't Need approval to fly into any US mainland airport unless the airport is slot controlled and all the slots are filled. I think I just read where LGB has open slots with no takers. So depending on what the slot times are? HA Could go in here right now.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:38 am

BeachBoy wrote:
Compared to North American tag-on flts w/ the A321neo, I thought it was gonna be more likely that HA would start triangle South Pacific routes like HNL-PPT-RAR-HNL, HNL-PPG-APW-HNL, HNL-MAJ-KWA-HNL, HNL-NAN-TBU-HNL.

I guess the market is not there.

Aren't those Micronesia Routes already being flown by United?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:50 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.




That can’t be correct, at Continental and United we flew the 764 non stop, year round between EWR and HNL and didn’t have an issue, I had a flight time of 12.5 hours once in the winter

Furthermore, the 763 has more range than the 764 so your contention makes no sense




Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. Condor was running a 763 from FRA-PHX last summer and that's 700 miles longer than EWR-HNL.

is it the distance? OR how much time would be spent going westbound into the wind in the ETOPS environment with an A321't going to work? They would be calculating their fuel reserves 30 minutes before the reach the west coast for entry into ETOPS territory. Were not talking about a widebody here. Comparing it to a 767 isn't going to work. Can a 737 do it? even the -800 or 900ER? would you want to Try?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:17 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Normal reserves are 45 min, ETOPS alternates are usually far more depending on the ETP and weather. Dodging another weather system over the middle of the US could easily add another 5-600 miles.

It could probably do it under ideal weather conditions, in the spring and winter it wouldn't be reliable. Even HA's 767's couldn't make JFK-HNL reliably in the winter, and they have a published range of 6,000nm.




That can’t be correct, at Continental and United we flew the 764 non stop, year round between EWR and HNL and didn’t have an issue, I had a flight time of 12.5 hours once in the winter

Furthermore, the 763 has more range than the 764 so your contention makes no sense




Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. Condor was running a 763 from FRA-PHX last summer and that's 700 miles longer than EWR-HNL.


Once again, it's not distance. It's the open water segment over the pacific. Hawaii doesn't have diversion points like the North Atlantic or North Pacific.

Also winds are less in summer.

If you read the media around when HA took delivery of the A330-200's, it explains the struggles with the 767's.
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cathay747
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:10 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Back in the mid 2000's Aloha Airlines offered flights within mainland U.S. Was thinking if HA could pull off the same thing. Some routes that come to mind are using either LAX or LGB (especially if B6 pulls out and if slots become available) simply as a connection point as well as for a hub for flights such as LAX-DEN/SLC/AUS/DFW/etc., or even they could potentially go into smaller markets and airports and avoid competition and offer connections onto HNL and OGG (via LAX or LGB) from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG, etc. Just curious as to what others thoughts are because it seems people are wanting to see HA expand in the mainland U.S. but the A321neo cannot reach many of these cities and the A330 is too big. Wonder if HA doing something similar to what Aloha did is their answer for going into new markets on the mainland.

Hawaiian is a US Domestic and International Carrier. They really don't Need approval to fly into any US mainland airport unless the airport is slot controlled and all the slots are filled. I think I just read where LGB has open slots with no takers. So depending on what the slot times are? HA Could go in here right now.


HA already serves LGB and it's with the 321neo. I don't remember when it started.
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cathay747
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:13 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
Compared to North American tag-on flts w/ the A321neo, I thought it was gonna be more likely that HA would start triangle South Pacific routes like HNL-PPT-RAR-HNL, HNL-PPG-APW-HNL, HNL-MAJ-KWA-HNL, HNL-NAN-TBU-HNL.

I guess the market is not there.

Aren't those Micronesia Routes already being flown by United?


Yes MAJ is, and I seriously doubt another carrier could be supported; if it could, UA would increase their frequency. But note that service to KWA was suspended as I believe all the U.S. military ops there were finally shut down, so there's no reason to stop there any longer; and UA (originally Air Mike of course) was the only airline that ever served KWA. Those of us who've never yet flown the Island Hopper sadly now can't have KWA as one of the pins in our map.
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cathay747
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:35 pm

IIRC there was talk in another thread about HA and possible new Mainland routes (which do pop up somewhat regularly!) of maybe AUS-HNL, which is a very interesting possibility and would be a monopoly-market. Possibly ABQ could work too. And I believe that's the main element needed...any Mainland expansion by HA really needs to be into markets with no existing nonstop service, like how they started BOS; but with the focus being roughly west of Chicago/Texas. IMHO east coast markets are already served to their max potential. I commented in that thread that maybe a small sub-fleet of 321XLR's would be good, as they could also be used to replace 330's on PPT & PPG to increase freq. and then also add some additional SoPac island, but my thinking was somewhat shot down.
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