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hawaiian717
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:48 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
I think I just read where LGB has open slots with no takers. So depending on what the slot times are? HA Could go in here right now.


LGB’s most recent round of slots released by JetBlue have been fully reallocated and Hawaiian picked up a second slot. I would have assumed the plan was for LGB-OGG with the second slot. However that reallocation round started before the COVID cuts so it’s unclear how many of those slots (including Hawaiian’s) will end up being used and how many will go up for reallocation again.

Where LGB has unused available slots is for regional aircraft, think CRJ-700 or smaller.
 
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klm617
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:21 pm

flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.



This would be the perfect plane for DTW-HNL say 2 or 3 times weekly.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:11 pm

klm617 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I'm not completely up to speed on this, but can the XLR operate from the East Coast to HI? With normal alternates / ETOPS alternates? When they start routing aircraft down south of Memphis or up north of Duluth because of a massive cold front of thunderstorms in the Midwest? When there's a "Northeastern" and the closest usable alternate to PHL is Norfolk?


WN732 wrote:
There's no way that would be possible. The NEO barely makes PHX work as it is, the XLR would probably make it far enough to get to ABQ or DEN but again it would be an issue of high altitude.


The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.



This would be the perfect plane for DTW-HNL say 2 or 3 times weekly.


I don’t see HA adding DTW for a long time, if ever. I can think of several cities that would get HA before DTW ever would such as AUS, SLC, DEN, BLI, IAH, MSP, CLT, FAT, RNO, DFW, YVR, IAD, etc.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:42 pm

Could they do 5th freedom routes?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:17 am

Max Q wrote:
That can’t be correct, at Continental and United we flew the 764 non stop, year round between EWR and HNL and didn’t have an issue

As a recurring issue, no... but those flights are redispatched @CA and have stopped for fuel before on the westbound.



Max Q wrote:
Furthermore, the 763 has more range than the 764 so your contention makes no sense

Until you factor in that HA's 763ERs had two dozen more seats than CO/UA's 764ERs, and weren't max weight variant.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:56 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
LAX-LAS was available for sale on HA without continuing to/from HNL.


RWA380 wrote:
HA has flown a LAX-PDX scheduled flight before on a DC-10 & it was once a week on Fridays at 5:15 am - 7:45 am am out of LAX as flight 25 (the usual flight # PDX-HNL). - http://www.departedflights.com/PDX95p1.html


Cool good info, thanks! I thought I remembered not seeing it listed in the 1998 OAG LAX-LAS-LAX, just as "1 stop" from LAS-HNL and HNL-LAS, but maybe I remembered wrong. Did not know about PDX-LAX being sold on a DC-10, very cool!
 
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cathay747
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:41 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Could they do 5th freedom routes?


What do you mean by this? We are speaking of U.S. domestic flying (within the 48 state "Mainland" specifically) in this thread, not international.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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cathay747
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:52 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:



The A321XLR has a published range of 4,700nm in a two class configuration, which takes in to account normal reserve requirements. HNL-PHL is under 4,300 nm.



This would be the perfect plane for DTW-HNL say 2 or 3 times weekly.


I don’t see HA adding DTW for a long time, if ever. I can think of several cities that would get HA before DTW ever would such as AUS, SLC, DEN, BLI, IAH, MSP, CLT, FAT, RNO, DFW, YVR, IAD, etc.


HA isn't likely to ever fly to SLC, DEN, or IAH as there is established nonstop service on those routes; CLT is highly unlikely as not enough O&D traffic, with no connecting feed to compensate; IAD existing O&D handled by UA's nonstop (+ zillions of connections) plus again, they'd have no feed to support it...remember that at JFK & BOS they have their partnership with B6, they wouldn't have that at CLT or IAD; no WAY they'd do DFW and go up against AA's multiple flights to the Islands, that would be pure suicide; YVR maybe, I could see that perhaps, and the rest I also think would be possible good picks, 321neo could handle some, but the XLR would be needed for AUS & MSP of course. And I wouldn't discount DTW...DL seems somewhat wishy-washy on maintaining that route IIRC, so I'd rate that as a possible too.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:07 pm

Forget YVR- every non Canadian carrier that tried it failed. The market is too ex Canada POS.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:35 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Could they do 5th freedom routes?


What do you mean by this? We are speaking of U.S. domestic flying (within the 48 state "Mainland" specifically) in this thread, not international.


For example, can HA fly HNL to LAX to DFW and just sell segments from LAX to DFW? Or even internationally, HNL to JFK to LHR.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Whats the point. Waste a bunch of money with random tag flights?

Unless they base aircraft on the mainland and really want to make a go of things, a random flight or two will hardly do anything more than lose money as they will have virtually zero pricing power or market position to utilize.

Agreed. Regional names help when flying to/from the region, than they hurt brand awareness.

HA legally could, but they would lose money. Best to buy longer range A321xLR to open a few more routes.

This is a tough market for HA. Competing with stops means going up against the US3's connections. That is a no won situation. It is better to partner.

Lightsaber
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chunhimlai
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:30 pm

If Hawaii have enough money, aircraft and slot, it can base anywhere they wish like AS
 
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Polot
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:14 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Could they do 5th freedom routes?


What do you mean by this? We are speaking of U.S. domestic flying (within the 48 state "Mainland" specifically) in this thread, not international.


For example, can HA fly HNL to LAX to DFW and just sell segments from LAX to DFW? Or even internationally, HNL to JFK to LHR.

Yes. HA is a US carrier, they have all the same rights as all the other US carriers. They are not operating under any special status just because they are based in a state (equivalent to all the 49 other states in terms of legal status) separated from the rest of the mainland. HA could decide they want to challenge DL’s dominance in ATL and start a regional hub there completely disconnected from their HNL base if they were so inclined.
 
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Laulau
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:38 pm

I always laugh at some of the posters that speculate on Hawaiian that are totally clueless to route choices at Hawaiian. Hawaiian is a DESTINATION carrier that means they serve the Hawaiian tourism market. There have been no plans or announcements by Peter Ingram the current CEO to do other wise. Hawaiian has been trying to pick up cargo flying from Asia to the US but there are only a handful of flights ICN/NRT to West Coast. The rest of the schedule is SEA/SFO/LAX (also cargo) with passengers in addition to inter island.
Until the state of Hawaii lifts the 14 day quarantine for visitors there will be NO flying to previous routes that were served by the nor will there be new routes within the continental US.
Before the pandemic hit in March there was speculation that HNL-AUS would be a route that Hawaiian would be adding in the near future but that was nixed with the lockdown.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:11 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.

And? Pray tell? Why NOT? they have every right and could fly on the mainland were they to have an operation on the mainland. Hawaiian has previously owned Hangars at Macon Georgia. And have flown to CLT and RDU. It is not inconceivable that they could again operate successfully on the mainland, If Spirit and Frontier can do it? So can HA! and they can do it in good fashion I'll bet.
 
alpine1989
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:05 am

TZ had no range issues operating the L1011-500 JFK-HNL
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:32 am

chunhimlai wrote:
If Hawaii have enough money, aircraft and slot, it can base anywhere they wish like AS


Make ONT or LGB a hub.
 
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Laulau
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:03 am

strfyr51 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.

And? Pray tell? Why NOT? they have every right and could fly on the mainland were they to have an operation on the mainland. Hawaiian has previously owned Hangars at Macon Georgia. And have flown to CLT and RDU. It is not inconceivable that they could again operate successfully on the mainland, If Spirit and Frontier can do it? So can HA! and they can do it in good fashion I'll bet.



Like I said-There has been no indication or press releases indicating HAL starting to fly in the mainland between those cities mentioned. Second-Hawaiian has no orders or options for A321XLRʻs. The 16th and final airframe arrived last month and there are no announcements of picking up ANY options.
Just because we owned hangers in Macon GA in the 80ʻs doesn't mean that thereʻs a chance of flying again in that market. Different era and different management team in place that has has a good track record.
I will add that given the current state of the airline and industry in general-I DO NOT see any carrier let alone Hawaiian trying to establish new routes and investing needed capital in unknown markets. Its about just surviving at this point.
 
KFTG
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:07 am

The Macon operation that Hawaiian ran was a cargo operation with Electras. Truly bizarre that it is being discussed here with respect to potential passenger service.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:45 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
If Hawaii have enough money, aircraft and slot, it can base anywhere they wish like AS


Make ONT or LGB a hub.
LGB is a hub with B6 connecting to HA, but it's got limited connections & B6's two biggest hubs are served by HA daily non-stop before the event, which means no.

HA does one thing very well, well several things, but for my point, this is the business "taking people to/from those beautiful Islands" this they know & do a good enough job in most markets they command a premium. HA by means of survival could not, nor would their BOD allow such a venture. I bet Hawaii is going to continue with quarantines until they can breathe safely.

The one think I want for the four main islands are level 4 or better trauma hospitals, but there would never be enough bed rooms built & Hawaii would be overwhelmed. Too much packed in together on Oahu
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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KFTG
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:16 am

RWA380 wrote:
I bet Hawaii is going to continue with quarantines until they can breathe safely.

Wear a mask. There, I solved their problem.
Re-open.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:54 am

RWA380 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
If Hawaii have enough money, aircraft and slot, it can base anywhere they wish like AS


Make ONT or LGB a hub.
LGB is a hub with B6 connecting to HA, but it's got limited connections & B6's two biggest hubs are served by HA daily non-stop before the event, which means no.

HA does one thing very well, well several things, but for my point, this is the business "taking people to/from those beautiful Islands" this they know & do a good enough job in most markets they command a premium. HA by means of survival could not, nor would their BOD allow such a venture. I bet Hawaii is going to continue with quarantines until they can breathe safely.

The one think I want for the four main islands are level 4 or better trauma hospitals, but there would never be enough bed rooms built & Hawaii would be overwhelmed. Too much packed in together on Oahu

and other than climate? Honolulu and New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Los Angeles are different How in Density? You're not making a real good argument here. HA could expend without a doubt and it's not like they shouldn't. The Matter is? the Airplanes and the route structure on the mainland. . They could also form alliances with carriers like B6, and F9, as that would give them petty much an instant Network and give the other 2 carriers access to Asia and possibly Europe as HA will now have B787's with Longhaul capability. It would be a win-win for all of them until HA can do it on their own.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:24 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:

Make ONT or LGB a hub.
LGB is a hub with B6 connecting to HA, but it's got limited connections & B6's two biggest hubs are served by HA daily non-stop before the event, which means no.

HA does one thing very well, well several things, but for my point, this is the business "taking people to/from those beautiful Islands" this they know & do a good enough job in most markets they command a premium. HA by means of survival could not, nor would their BOD allow such a venture. I bet Hawaii is going to continue with quarantines until they can breathe safely.

The one think I want for the four main islands are level 4 or better trauma hospitals, but there would never be enough bed rooms built & Hawaii would be overwhelmed. Too much packed in together on Oahu

and other than climate? Honolulu and New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Los Angeles are different How in Density? You're not making a real good argument here. HA could expend without a doubt and it's not like they shouldn't. The Matter is? the Airplanes and the route structure on the mainland. . They could also form alliances with carriers like B6, and F9, as that would give them petty much an instant Network and give the other 2 carriers access to Asia and possibly Europe as HA will now have B787's with Longhaul capability. It would be a win-win for all of them until HA can do it on their own.


in the time I lived there, in the late 90's granted 20 years ago & the couple of acres on Kauai & decades of trips over, there have been multiple discussions on Hawaii's ability to medically handle a widespread pandemic, or large scale crash of two large aircraft, or (name the tragic situation here).

Hawaii flat out does not have the capacity to heal at this rate, & with a sudden influx, hospitals that can handle even a heart attack existon on Oahu & Maui only, others are medivaced out, if stable to fly.
While Oahu also has the Army's Tripler Hospital, even the generous (population wise) rooms Oahu has, are not capable of the extreme explosion this could bring.

It is likely killing businesses & that crushes me, I think of the poor, the homeless & the massive amounts of unemployment. Even if they opened up in a week, to the Hawaiians, they are getting the first taste of what limited tourism could look like. I doubt it's their biggest rush.

To try & answer your question, if you consider the densest parts only, of course the density is relatively similar in that all have multiple high rise options in the highest densities. But hospitals are built based on population of the metro areas served, for instance in Chicago, hospitals that serve the area, are not just in Chicago, but in the suburbs. That in fact applies to Atlanta, Los Angeles & NYC.
So yes indeed, my point makes sense, it also is why Hawaii has been as cautious as they have been. No one should expect them to be anything but cautious, the last diseases washing up on their shores, wiped out swaths off their ancestors.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pm

RWA380 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
LGB is a hub with B6 connecting to HA, but it's got limited connections & B6's two biggest hubs are served by HA daily non-stop before the event, which means no.

HA does one thing very well, well several things, but for my point, this is the business "taking people to/from those beautiful Islands" this they know & do a good enough job in most markets they command a premium. HA by means of survival could not, nor would their BOD allow such a venture. I bet Hawaii is going to continue with quarantines until they can breathe safely.

The one think I want for the four main islands are level 4 or better trauma hospitals, but there would never be enough bed rooms built & Hawaii would be overwhelmed. Too much packed in together on Oahu

and other than climate? Honolulu and New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Los Angeles are different How in Density? You're not making a real good argument here. HA could expend without a doubt and it's not like they shouldn't. The Matter is? the Airplanes and the route structure on the mainland. . They could also form alliances with carriers like B6, and F9, as that would give them petty much an instant Network and give the other 2 carriers access to Asia and possibly Europe as HA will now have B787's with Longhaul capability. It would be a win-win for all of them until HA can do it on their own.


in the time I lived there, in the late 90's granted 20 years ago & the couple of acres on Kauai & decades of trips over, there have been multiple discussions on Hawaii's ability to medically handle a widespread pandemic, or large scale crash of two large aircraft, or (name the tragic situation here).

Hawaii flat out does not have the capacity to heal at this rate, & with a sudden influx, hospitals that can handle even a heart attack existon on Oahu & Maui only, others are medivaced out, if stable to fly.
While Oahu also has the Army's Tripler Hospital, even the generous (population wise) rooms Oahu has, are not capable of the extreme explosion this could bring.

It is likely killing businesses & that crushes me, I think of the poor, the homeless & the massive amounts of unemployment. Even if they opened up in a week, to the Hawaiians, they are getting the first taste of what limited tourism could look like. I doubt it's their biggest rush.

To try & answer your question, if you consider the densest parts only, of course the density is relatively similar in that all have multiple high rise options in the highest densities. But hospitals are built based on population of the metro areas served, for instance in Chicago, hospitals that serve the area, are not just in Chicago, but in the suburbs. That in fact applies to Atlanta, Los Angeles & NYC.
So yes indeed, my point makes sense, it also is why Hawaii has been as cautious as they have been. No one should expect them to be anything but cautious, the last diseases washing up on their shores, wiped out swaths off their ancestors.


HA really needs to expand its domestic footprint beyond Hawaii. Reminds of when B6 had their meltdown in the upper northeast in the mid 2000s and JFK was severely affected. It of course led to Neeleman’s ousting. B6 did not (and you can argue they still do not) have a strong operation beyond that area. If HA for example has another focus such as the L.A. area, Wasatch Front area or somewhere else, then they could still possibly be making money if something causes the islands to come to a stand still.
Last edited by HNLSLCPDX on Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
BusBlitz
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pm

ADent wrote:
DEN was 2x HNL and 1x KOA, LIH, OGG pre-Covid.


In the summer it was 2x daily HNL, but outside of that it's 1x of each, KOA, LIH, OGG, HNL. They can't keep that up forever. The 757s are leaving and so are the domestic 772s that operate from Denver. The A321XLRs are going to EWR and IAD. So Denver is going to be either load restricted or one stop thru LAX or SFO.

HA could fill the gap with a one stop thru LGB or LAX. F9 could be a great candidate for codeshare, if Hawaiian had a good low fare option, even if only to beat Southwest in Hawaii. F9's planes can't make it to Hawaii due to payload. That way, HA gets access to many secondary airports in the Lower 48, while Frontier extends Leisure travel to include the many people who want to go to Hawaii.
 
seat1a
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:59 pm

BusBlitz wrote:
ADent wrote:
DEN was 2x HNL and 1x KOA, LIH, OGG pre-Covid.


In the summer it was 2x daily HNL, but outside of that it's 1x of each, KOA, LIH, OGG, HNL. They can't keep that up forever. The 757s are leaving and so are the domestic 772s that operate from Denver. The A321XLRs are going to EWR and IAD. So Denver is going to be either load restricted or one stop thru LAX or SFO.

HA could fill the gap with a one stop thru LGB or LAX. F9 could be a great candidate for codeshare, if Hawaiian had a good low fare option, even if only to beat Southwest in Hawaii. F9's planes can't make it to Hawaii due to payload. That way, HA gets access to many secondary airports in the Lower 48, while Frontier extends Leisure travel to include the many people who want to go to Hawaii.


The UA flights ex-DEN to HNL and OGG are 777's? The flights to LIH and KOA are 757s. Didn't think the 757 had that range!
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:01 am

Well, if Alaska does Inter-mainland service...
:D
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:11 am

strfyr51 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
from BOI, PVU, RNO, GEG...


We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.

And? Pray tell? Why NOT? they have every right and could fly on the mainland ...


They're a domestic carrier. The domestic market has been deregulated for ~40 years. They can fly anywhere they want - and lose a ton of money. It was explained above that infrequent tag-ons can't compete with hub connections, as, among other reasons, the plane isn't going to be full at good fares on the tag leg (low frequency doesn't earn big money in short-haul domestic). Things like GEG/BOI/RNO-HNL are pretty thin markets. UA - as an example - aggregates HNL-bound traffic from dozens of origins all over the country. You need a long, firm lesson in hub economics.

The OP got feedback and didn't like the answers he got. Go take fifteen college-level economics, statistics, and finance classes and get jobs in Revenue Management (at AA, DL, AS...). The answer will be clear to you in the first month.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:22 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

We will return to having five carriers with one-stop services HNL/OGG-BOI/SLC/RNO/GEG. HA is not going to win as the sixth carrier in the market. IMHO, they need to (continue to) look at secondary West Coast destinations, non-HNL/OGG destinations, and then secondary-to-secondary. I wouldn't even be looking at a subfleet of 321XLRs. HA is too small to tolerate much fleet fragmentation.

And? Pray tell? Why NOT? they have every right and could fly on the mainland ...


They're a domestic carrier. The domestic market has been deregulated for ~40 years. They can fly anywhere they want - and lose a ton of money. It was explained above that infrequent tag-ons can't compete with hub connections, as, among other reasons, the plane isn't going to be full at good fares on the tag leg (low frequency doesn't earn big money in short-haul domestic). Things like GEG/BOI/RNO-HNL are pretty thin markets. UA - as an example - aggregates HNL-bound traffic from dozens of origins all over the country. You need a long, firm lesson in hub economics.

The OP got feedback and didn't like the answers he got. Go take fifteen college-level economics, statistics, and finance classes and get jobs in Revenue Management (at AA, DL, AS...). The answer will be clear to you in the first month.


Take it easy.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3469
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:09 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
HA really needs to expand its domestic footprint beyond Hawaii.


No, they don’t. Hawaiian has identified the market they wish to serve, and that’s the needs of residents and visitors to Hawaii.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4974
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:24 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
and other than climate? Honolulu and New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Los Angeles are different How in Density? You're not making a real good argument here. HA could expend without a doubt and it's not like they shouldn't. The Matter is? the Airplanes and the route structure on the mainland. . They could also form alliances with carriers like B6, and F9, as that would give them petty much an instant Network and give the other 2 carriers access to Asia and possibly Europe as HA will now have B787's with Longhaul capability. It would be a win-win for all of them until HA can do it on their own.


in the time I lived there, in the late 90's granted 20 years ago & the couple of acres on Kauai & decades of trips over, there have been multiple discussions on Hawaii's ability to medically handle a widespread pandemic, or large scale crash of two large aircraft, or (name the tragic situation here).

Hawaii flat out does not have the capacity to heal at this rate, & with a sudden influx, hospitals that can handle even a heart attack existon on Oahu & Maui only, others are medivaced out, if stable to fly.
While Oahu also has the Army's Tripler Hospital, even the generous (population wise) rooms Oahu has, are not capable of the extreme explosion this could bring.

It is likely killing businesses & that crushes me, I think of the poor, the homeless & the massive amounts of unemployment. Even if they opened up in a week, to the Hawaiians, they are getting the first taste of what limited tourism could look like. I doubt it's their biggest rush.

To try & answer your question, if you consider the densest parts only, of course the density is relatively similar in that all have multiple high rise options in the highest densities. But hospitals are built based on population of the metro areas served, for instance in Chicago, hospitals that serve the area, are not just in Chicago, but in the suburbs. That in fact applies to Atlanta, Los Angeles & NYC.
So yes indeed, my point makes sense, it also is why Hawaii has been as cautious as they have been. No one should expect them to be anything but cautious, the last diseases washing up on their shores, wiped out swaths off their ancestors.


HA really needs to expand its domestic footprint beyond Hawaii. Reminds of when B6 had their meltdown in the upper northeast in the mid 2000s and JFK was severely affected. It of course led to Neeleman’s ousting. B6 did not (and you can argue they still do not) have a strong operation beyond that area. If HA for example has another focus such as the L.A. area, Wasatch Front area or somewhere else, then they could still possibly be making money if something causes the islands to come to a stand still.

Good Point! HA is not some Podunk carrier. They serve primarily Hawaii But they could also serve the mainland as well as anybody. All they need is the will to do so. along with the capital to do it!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4974
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:45 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
And? Pray tell? Why NOT? they have every right and could fly on the mainland ...


They're a domestic carrier. The domestic market has been deregulated for ~40 years. They can fly anywhere they want - and lose a ton of money. It was explained above that infrequent tag-ons can't compete with hub connections, as, among other reasons, the plane isn't going to be full at good fares on the tag leg (low frequency doesn't earn big money in short-haul domestic). Things like GEG/BOI/RNO-HNL are pretty thin markets. UA - as an example - aggregates HNL-bound traffic from dozens of origins all over the country. You need a long, firm lesson in hub economics.

The OP got feedback and didn't like the answers he got. Go take fifteen college-level economics, statistics, and finance classes and get jobs in Revenue Management (at AA, DL, AS...). The answer will be clear to you in the first month.


Take it easy.

I need a lesson? REALLY? I've got 38 years in Airline operations and management. I also have my degree in Aviation maintenance management and Operations.
My opinion is every BIT as valid as yours, and All you're spouting is some Bogus opinions about why they Can't do it which are NOT based on any Facts!
So?? Tell us why they Can't do it ? You've presented nothing but some BOGUS Opinion but why they shouldn't do it. I think you have another Agenda here as I think you're "shilling" for some other Airline to start service and you might NOT want Hawaiian to cut in on their "Hustle"... I see this quite a bit on this board and it's more Bogus every time, as? HA hasn't made any moves to expand their mainline Service to any great extent. this argument sounds like the SAME Dimwit that didn't want United to try and establish a Southeastern Hub in South Florida. When they never even said they wanted to. So what is your REAL point?
Are you running Laps or are you going someplace with this line of reasoning? And? Just what makes you such an expert that you can tell anybody they have a bad Idea?
 
HNLSLCPDX
Topic Author
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:15 am

strfyr51 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

They're a domestic carrier. The domestic market has been deregulated for ~40 years. They can fly anywhere they want - and lose a ton of money. It was explained above that infrequent tag-ons can't compete with hub connections, as, among other reasons, the plane isn't going to be full at good fares on the tag leg (low frequency doesn't earn big money in short-haul domestic). Things like GEG/BOI/RNO-HNL are pretty thin markets. UA - as an example - aggregates HNL-bound traffic from dozens of origins all over the country. You need a long, firm lesson in hub economics.

The OP got feedback and didn't like the answers he got. Go take fifteen college-level economics, statistics, and finance classes and get jobs in Revenue Management (at AA, DL, AS...). The answer will be clear to you in the first month.


Take it easy.

I need a lesson? REALLY? I've got 38 years in Airline operations and management. I also have my degree in Aviation maintenance management and Operations.
My opinion is every BIT as valid as yours, and All you're spouting is some Bogus opinions about why they Can't do it which are NOT based on any Facts!
So?? Tell us why they Can't do it ? You've presented nothing but some BOGUS Opinion but why they shouldn't do it. I think you have another Agenda here as I think you're "shilling" for some other Airline to start service and you might NOT want Hawaiian to cut in on their "Hustle"... I see this quite a bit on this board and it's more Bogus every time, as? HA hasn't made any moves to expand their mainline Service to any great extent. this argument sounds like the SAME Dimwit that didn't want United to try and establish a Southeastern Hub in South Florida. When they never even said they wanted to. So what is your REAL point?
Are you running Laps or are you going someplace with this line of reasoning? And? Just what makes you such an expert that you can tell anybody they have a bad Idea?


Thank you! I could not agree more. Way to answer back!
 
ScottB
Posts: 6986
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:49 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Whats the point. Waste a bunch of money with random tag flights?

Unless they base aircraft on the mainland and really want to make a go of things, a random flight or two will hardly do anything more than lose money as they will have virtually zero pricing power or market position to utilize.


Honestly, I cannot understand why this thread has extended by 75 (so far) posts beyond this excellent explanation, unless it's just about the fever dreams of enthusiasts. Yes, there are no legal reasons why HA couldn't fly routes in the continental U.S. or Alaska -- they have the same status as other U.S. carriers. But it would ultimately be a disaster unless they were willing to commit hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to build up a presence in the market, akin to Virgin America's deep losses for years. They'd also be risking their frequent flyer partnerships with AA/DL/UA which help fill the interisland flights.

strfyr51 wrote:
I need a lesson? REALLY? I've got 38 years in Airline operations and management. I also have my degree in Aviation maintenance management and Operations.
My opinion is every BIT as valid as yours, and All you're spouting is some Bogus opinions about why they Can't do it which are NOT based on any Facts!


That's great, but being an expert in airline operations and maintenance doesn't necessarily make you an expert in revenue management or network planning. Most doctors are really smart people and do an amazing job at healing people and saving lives. But a lot of them are absolutely horrible at running a business.

If you think, based on your experience in the industry, HA should do something like this, then give some cogent financial reasons why they should rather than just could. Don't leave out potential competitive responses from the incumbents on the mainland and the potential impact of heavy losses on the enterprise as a whole. Incoherent rambling about opposing a United hub in Florida (which would indeed be a woeful waste of capital) doesn't cut it.

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
HA really needs to expand its domestic footprint beyond Hawaii. Reminds of when B6 had their meltdown in the upper northeast in the mid 2000s and JFK was severely affected. It of course led to Neeleman’s ousting. B6 did not (and you can argue they still do not) have a strong operation beyond that area. If HA for example has another focus such as the L.A. area, Wasatch Front area or somewhere else, then they could still possibly be making money if something causes the islands to come to a stand still.


Or... they could lose a ton of money competing on the mainland and end up putting the entire business back in bankruptcy.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4974
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:30 am

ScottB wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Whats the point. Waste a bunch of money with random tag flights?

Unless they base aircraft on the mainland and really want to make a go of things, a random flight or two will hardly do anything more than lose money as they will have virtually zero pricing power or market position to utilize.


Honestly, I cannot understand why this thread has extended by 75 (so far) posts beyond this excellent explanation, unless it's just about the fever dreams of enthusiasts. Yes, there are no legal reasons why HA couldn't fly routes in the continental U.S. or Alaska -- they have the same status as other U.S. carriers. But it would ultimately be a disaster unless they were willing to commit hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to build up a presence in the market, akin to Virgin America's deep losses for years. They'd also be risking their frequent flyer partnerships with AA/DL/UA which help fill the interisland flights.

strfyr51 wrote:
I need a lesson? REALLY? I've got 38 years in Airline operations and management. I also have my degree in Aviation maintenance management and Operations.
My opinion is every BIT as valid as yours, and All you're spouting is some Bogus opinions about why they Can't do it which are NOT based on any Facts!


That's great, but being an expert in airline operations and maintenance doesn't necessarily make you an expert in revenue management or network planning. Most doctors are really smart people and do an amazing job at healing people and saving lives. But a lot of them are absolutely horrible at running a business.

If you think, based on your experience in the industry, HA should do something like this, then give some cogent financial reasons why they should rather than just could. Don't leave out potential competitive responses from the incumbents on the mainland and the potential impact of heavy losses on the enterprise as a whole. Incoherent rambling about opposing a United hub in Florida (which would indeed be a woeful waste of capital) doesn't cut it.

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
HA really needs to expand its domestic footprint beyond Hawaii. Reminds of when B6 had their meltdown in the upper northeast in the mid 2000s and JFK was severely affected. It of course led to Neeleman’s ousting. B6 did not (and you can argue they still do not) have a strong operation beyond that area. If HA for example has another focus such as the L.A. area, Wasatch Front area or somewhere else, then they could still possibly be making money if something causes the islands to come to a stand still.

ir Numbers o
Or... they could lose a ton of money competing on the mainland and end up putting the entire business back in bankruptcy.[/quote

Well? Since you asked? is a well run carrier with a pretty impeccable safety record. Just because they're Hawaiian does in NO means say they don't know what they're doing if they so choose to In the same way United has other Airlines on their flights and I believe I made a point to say they're flying B787's and could stand to interline with Non-Hawaii flying carriers to partner in offering services they don't offer as the 787 can make it from any hub in the Mainland to either Europe OR Asia where F9, B6 or any other network carrier could in fact interline with and put their flight number ON the flight the same way as other Star Alliance partners put their numbers on United Flights. So If United could do it? Then why not Hawaiian? And they could do it until Hawaiian can no longer support the relationship due to Lack of capacity.
your supposition is they CAN'T or Shouldn't? Wel then Why NOT? Do you know for A fact THAT THEY CAN'T? Or? Are you hoping they won't? And? If they Do? then? What's your skin in the Game? The Us Airline industry was born FOR competition, and it's competition that makes and Keeps us sharp! Because you're a Naysayer? Is of little or no consequence. But I still ask? What's your skin in the came that says they shouldn't? Especially? If they haven't EVEN SAID they would or Might? I get Aviation week, Airline Business, and www.Airlinepilot Central, Nowhere Have I heard or read where Hawaiian might do anything of what you're saying they shouldn't DO. So? What's your Source? And Why is it you put the doubt out in the first place??
 
ScottB
Posts: 6986
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines inter-mainland service possible?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
your supposition is they CAN'T or Shouldn't? Wel then Why NOT? Do you know for A fact THAT THEY CAN'T? Or? Are you hoping they won't? And? If they Do? then? What's your skin in the Game? The Us Airline industry was born FOR competition, and it's competition that makes and Keeps us sharp! Because you're a Naysayer? Is of little or no consequence. But I still ask? What's your skin in the came that says they shouldn't? Especially? If they haven't EVEN SAID they would or Might?


If you had read my post, you'd know that I believe they shouldn't. I acknowledged that I think they have the legal authority to do it, but that I also think it would be a terrible idea for them. What's my skin in the game? I don't work for them or any of their competitors. I don't have stock in them or any of their competitors. But I'd prefer not to see them go out of business and leave thousands of employees jobless.

Delta and United certainly face no legal obstacles to buying used A380a at a bargain price. They're not yet bankrupt so they have the cash to buy some. Do I think they should? Hell no. I could invest my life savings in Avatar Airlines or Baltia. Is that a good idea? Hell no. Do I think HA should fly intra-mainland or from the mainland to Asia or Europe? Hell no.

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