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apodino
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Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:22 am

There was an internal memo sent to Air Wisconsin employees today that I am not privy to and have not seen, but I have seen some discussion on it. It sounds like Air Wisconsin is trying to add the CRJ-700 and the CRJ-550 to their certificate in order to be able to fly the type in the future. This was shared with employees today. My own experience shows that if Air Wisconsin puts out something like this, something is in the works as Air Wisconsin is more secretive than the people who know what goes on in Area 51. If this is true and happens it raises some questions.

1. Where would 700 flying come from? Scope is maxed out as it is, and SkyWest and Republic seem pretty secure. I suppose if something happens to Mesa? But that's a big if.

2. With the CRJ-550 being mentioned, are the days numbered for GoJet? Trans States holding has already folded two airlines this year, and with this possibly happening, might Hulas just pull the plug completely?

3. How much longer can Air Wisconsin keep the CRJ-200s flying? Much of the fleet is nearing 20 years old as it is, not to mention 50 Seat RJ's are pretty much relics these days?

4. Air Wisconsin also mentioned in the same email that they will be furloughing. It seems pretty strange to add a new type to the certificate and Furlough. What is going on here?

5. Is this possibly a hail mary to try to save Air Wisconsin from going under?

All questions this raises. But I find the memo interesting. And this seems like a bit of an unusual move for a company that's as risk averse as Air Wisconsin has traditionally been.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:04 am

As for #4 on your list, Air Wisconsin (ZW) used to have four domiciles: ORD, MKE, IAD & CAE. However, checking the latest update on Airline Pilot Central it seems that they have closed IAD and CAE. Perhaps United has informed ZW that they are going to reduce their IAD hub going forward? If this is the case, it might explain the possible furloughs.

As for #2 & #5, since ZW is wholly dependent on United for their current business and Go Jet's parent company is near-collapse, maybe United is offering ZW the CRJ700 and CRJ550 flying that is currently being done by G7?
 
n797mx
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:27 am

apodino wrote:
1. Where would 700 flying come from? Scope is maxed out as it is, and SkyWest and Republic seem pretty secure. I suppose if something happens to Mesa? But that's a big if.


The Mesa CRJ's were already slated to be transferred to GoJet for conversion to 550s IIRC.

apodino wrote:
3. How much longer can Air Wisconsin keep the CRJ-200s flying? Much of the fleet is nearing 20 years old as it is, not to mention 50 Seat RJ's are pretty much relics these days?


They already had some retired because they were timing out. I can't imagine the rest of the fleet is too far behind. They are older frames that were used on shorter routes historically.

apodino wrote:
5. Is this possibly a hail mary to try to save Air Wisconsin from going under?


If it is, it's a stupid one IMO. The only reason I could see saving ZW be worth it is to recoup any money that was sunk due to the Aviate program. Even if GoJet was to fold, I doubt transferring their fleet to ZW would be worth the hassle.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
jonair8
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:53 am

To answer number 4 and 5:
In the internal memo, Rob Binns emphasized that there is currently no request by UA or any other potential partner for ZW to operate the CR5 or the CR7. That being said, it would behoove ZW to pursue adding these to the certificate though if they want to stay in business. Their business plan of an all CR2 fleet flying for only UA will not be financially sound anymore post covid as UA, their only partner right now, has expressed a new interest in drawing down more CR2s in favor of ER4s. The only way for ZW to remain competitive in that case is to set themselves up to one day hopefully operate the CRJ-550 and even the CRJ-700 since they right now only do 50 seater flying.

That being said, to try to answer your other points, no telling where the CR7s would come from as they’re really just trying to position themselves to be in a better situation for the future, GoJet’s contract with the CR5 is new so they’ll be busy for a while, and ZW’s -200s are definitely getting long in tooth so with UA trying to shift toward the ER4s over the CR2s, they’ll have to make some fleet changes.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:54 am

Hulas has stated that the TSA company Infrastructure cannot go on forever running just a handful of 550’s.
I would not be at all surprised to see that flying go elsewhere in the future.

Air Wisconsin knows that the 200’s days are numbered, especially in the current environment. A 700 program at least gives them options for future flying. (Especially considering the Expressjet saga.)
 
dstblj52
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:04 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Hulas has stated that the TSA company Infrastructure cannot go on forever running just a handful of 550’s.
I would not be at all surprised to see that flying go elsewhere in the future.

Air Wisconsin knows that the 200’s days are numbered, especially in the current environment. A 700 program at least gives them options for future flying. (Especially considering the Expressjet saga.)

TSH not TSA but yeah it seems to me that someone at airwhisky suddenly realized what the rest of us have known for a good little while that 50 seaters are not going to be around forever and they need to find a way to stay in business and going after the crj550 flying might just happen.It would be a mostly one for one replacement of their current fleet they can add it through just a differences course for pilots maintenance is not wildly different and so it might just work as a replacement.
 
JohnAudiR18
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:08 am

I'm not surprised this is happening, it's sad by all means, but it would seem the industry as a whole is shifting. I wasn't born in time, but it seems the CJ2's and eventually my personal favorite E140 and 45's are going away like the turbo props that used to hold 14-37 people and used to be staples of the "regional" airlines of the time. The CJ550 is at best a "temporary fix" for scope clause as United overall is struggling to fill seats on it's mainline aircraft and needing more 76 seater RJ's to even attempt to remain on par with their legacy competitors.But to this topic, I sadly wouldn't be surprised if GoJet goes belly up within 6-8 months of this post, if not a tad longer. Air Wisconsin might be the next up to take over the flying as only Mesa would be the other alternative (I doubt SkyWest would necessarily want to take over that flying, but i'm not surprised if they did) if Air Wis didn't take over the flying.
 
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Chasensfo
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:12 am

Rumored the jets will come from Gojet. Airline's don't add a type to their certificate if they don't plan on actually flying it.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:41 pm

jonair8 wrote:
To answer number 4 and 5:
In the internal memo, Rob Binns emphasized that there is currently no request by UA or any other potential partner for ZW to operate the CR5 or the CR7. That being said, it would behoove ZW to pursue adding these to the certificate though if they want to stay in business. Their business plan of an all CR2 fleet flying for only UA will not be financially sound anymore post covid as UA, their only partner right now, has expressed a new interest in drawing down more CR2s in favor of ER4s. The only way for ZW to remain competitive in that case is to set themselves up to one day hopefully operate the CRJ-550 and even the CRJ-700 since they right now only do 50 seater flying.

That being said, to try to answer your other points, no telling where the CR7s would come from as they’re really just trying to position themselves to be in a better situation for the future, GoJet’s contract with the CR5 is new so they’ll be busy for a while, and ZW’s -200s are definitely getting long in tooth so with UA trying to shift toward the ER4s over the CR2s, they’ll have to make some fleet changes.


Be careful reading too much into ZW's upper management's disclaimer in this memo ("Don't get your hopes up, gang! We're just spitballing ideas."). It is tough to imagine that this proposed plan to add CRJ-550's and CRJ-700's to their operating certificate isn't inspired by some sort of UA inquiry (their only customer). I also imagine UA has made this inquiry to OO and YV, too.

The G7 contract for CRJ-550 flying predates the recent collapse of the other two airlines that were part of their parent company, Trans State Holdings. Most likely the financials in the G7 contract were based on taking advantage of the economies of scale of sharing with their other two (now-defunct) airlines major overhead costs such as simulators, training, front office support, dispatchers, ground handling, etc., However, now that cost advantage is gone. Going forward, all of these overhead costs are laid soley at the feet of G7, who lacks the operational scale and cashflow to support them on their own.
 
drdisque
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:58 pm

I think the most likely scenario is to 1. Prepare for if G7 collapses and all CRJ-550s are transferred to ZW or 2. Mesa's CR7's are converted to CR5's, and replace CR2's at ZW on a rolling basis.
 
MO11
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:09 pm

drdisque wrote:
I think the most likely scenario is to 1. Prepare for if G7 collapses and all CRJ-550s are transferred to ZW or 2. Mesa's CR7's are converted to CR5's, and replace CR2's at ZW on a rolling basis.


I thought the most recent plan (now delayed) was for Mesa to get the next group of ERJ 175s and for United to buy the (Mesa-owned) CRJ-700s and send them to GoJet.
 
mhockey31091
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:11 pm

G7 is in a horrible position financially, they had to stop taking deliveries of the remaining 550's because of it. From what I've heard OO management turned down the opportunity to fly the 550's because UA wanted us to fly them at the 200 rate because they are a 50 seater. Post COVID, who knows what they will come up with.
 
bigb
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:22 pm

From some folks I’ve spoken with. Mesa CRJ-700s are looking more likely to stay put with Mesa.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:17 pm

bigb wrote:
From some folks I’ve spoken with. Mesa CRJ-700s are looking more likely to stay put with Mesa.

Mesa is cheap and that matter more than ever right now
 
bigb
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:37 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
bigb wrote:
From some folks I’ve spoken with. Mesa CRJ-700s are looking more likely to stay put with Mesa.

Mesa is cheap and that matter more than ever right now

Hence is why they are about to fly 737s for DHL soon.
 
apodino
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:44 pm

mhockey31091 wrote:
G7 is in a horrible position financially, they had to stop taking deliveries of the remaining 550's because of it. From what I've heard OO management turned down the opportunity to fly the 550's because UA wanted us to fly them at the 200 rate because they are a 50 seater. Post COVID, who knows what they will come up with.


OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening and with the contracts they have they are actually in a position where they can turn down flying. ZW may be looking at a situation they have to accept just to stay in business. This play may be CJH holdings basically saying they want to keep Air Wisconsin around rather than walk away. If this flying is signed and guaranteed, the owners will spend the money for the 550's. With G7 only flying 550's and not being able to take delivery because of money issues, that sounds like it may be the final nail in the coffin of TSH in general, and Hulas may have to close it up.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:58 pm

apodino wrote:
mhockey31091 wrote:
G7 is in a horrible position financially, they had to stop taking deliveries of the remaining 550's because of it. From what I've heard OO management turned down the opportunity to fly the 550's because UA wanted us to fly them at the 200 rate because they are a 50 seater. Post COVID, who knows what they will come up with.


OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening and with the contracts they have they are actually in a position where they can turn down flying. ZW may be looking at a situation they have to accept just to stay in business. This play may be CJH holdings basically saying they want to keep Air Wisconsin around rather than walk away. If this flying is signed and guaranteed, the owners will spend the money for the 550's. With G7 only flying 550's and not being able to take delivery because of money issues, that sounds like it may be the final nail in the coffin of TSH in general, and Hulas may have to close it up.

Over the next few months were going to see the whipsaw start up again and it will become the battle of who is desperate enough to sign this terrible CPA and it looks like airwhisky is getting ready to take some cut rate flying from someone maybe G7 or maybe going after some AA flying
 
apodino
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:02 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
apodino wrote:
mhockey31091 wrote:
G7 is in a horrible position financially, they had to stop taking deliveries of the remaining 550's because of it. From what I've heard OO management turned down the opportunity to fly the 550's because UA wanted us to fly them at the 200 rate because they are a 50 seater. Post COVID, who knows what they will come up with.


OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening and with the contracts they have they are actually in a position where they can turn down flying. ZW may be looking at a situation they have to accept just to stay in business. This play may be CJH holdings basically saying they want to keep Air Wisconsin around rather than walk away. If this flying is signed and guaranteed, the owners will spend the money for the 550's. With G7 only flying 550's and not being able to take delivery because of money issues, that sounds like it may be the final nail in the coffin of TSH in general, and Hulas may have to close it up.

Over the next few months were going to see the whipsaw start up again and it will become the battle of who is desperate enough to sign this terrible CPA and it looks like airwhisky is getting ready to take some cut rate flying from someone maybe G7 or maybe going after some AA flying

I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door. That would leave them with OO and RP and the three wholly owneds. That is consistent with the direction AA want to take the Eagle brand.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:23 pm

apodino wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
apodino wrote:

OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening and with the contracts they have they are actually in a position where they can turn down flying. ZW may be looking at a situation they have to accept just to stay in business. This play may be CJH holdings basically saying they want to keep Air Wisconsin around rather than walk away. If this flying is signed and guaranteed, the owners will spend the money for the 550's. With G7 only flying 550's and not being able to take delivery because of money issues, that sounds like it may be the final nail in the coffin of TSH in general, and Hulas may have to close it up.

Over the next few months were going to see the whipsaw start up again and it will become the battle of who is desperate enough to sign this terrible CPA and it looks like airwhisky is getting ready to take some cut rate flying from someone maybe G7 or maybe going after some AA flying

I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door. That would leave them with OO and RP and the three wholly owneds. That is consistent with the direction AA want to take the Eagle brand.

I doubt that plan is still in effect realistically right now the only thing that matters is what does your CPA cost and even if you don't want to add much network complexity you need a threat to whipsaw carriers look at what happened between compass and envoy where compass got a fairly rich cpa just for willing to be threat to envoy. I suspect ZW might be used in the same tac against PSA for east coast operations
 
bigb
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:36 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
apodino wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Over the next few months were going to see the whipsaw start up again and it will become the battle of who is desperate enough to sign this terrible CPA and it looks like airwhisky is getting ready to take some cut rate flying from someone maybe G7 or maybe going after some AA flying

I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door. That would leave them with OO and RP and the three wholly owneds. That is consistent with the direction AA want to take the Eagle brand.

I doubt that plan is still in effect realistically right now the only thing that matters is what does your CPA cost and even if you don't want to add much network complexity you need a threat to whipsaw carriers look at what happened between compass and envoy where compass got a fairly rich cpa just for willing to be threat to envoy. I suspect ZW might be used in the same tac against PSA for east coast operations


And you suspect incorrectly, AA isn’t bringing ZW back into the fold when the WOs can 50 seat flying cheaper ie Piedmont and Envoy plus AA is trying to distance it’s self from 50 seat flying as much as it can on the east coast markets.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:43 pm

bigb wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
apodino wrote:
I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door. That would leave them with OO and RP and the three wholly owneds. That is consistent with the direction AA want to take the Eagle brand.

I doubt that plan is still in effect realistically right now the only thing that matters is what does your CPA cost and even if you don't want to add much network complexity you need a threat to whipsaw carriers look at what happened between compass and envoy where compass got a fairly rich cpa just for willing to be threat to envoy. I suspect ZW might be used in the same tac against PSA for east coast operations


And you suspect incorrectly, AA isn’t bringing ZW back into the fold when the WOs can 50 seat flying cheaper ie Piedmont and Envoy plus AA is trying to distance it’s self from 50 seat flying as much as it can on the east coast markets.

The regionals are going to get hit with the whipsaw and the pay is going to get slashed again we saw this in the pasted and with a bunch of pilots on furlough it will happen again mark my words its just a matter of who takes the concessions first at this point, and if ZW does they will get the flying
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:50 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
bigb wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
I doubt that plan is still in effect realistically right now the only thing that matters is what does your CPA cost and even if you don't want to add much network complexity you need a threat to whipsaw carriers look at what happened between compass and envoy where compass got a fairly rich cpa just for willing to be threat to envoy. I suspect ZW might be used in the same tac against PSA for east coast operations


And you suspect incorrectly, AA isn’t bringing ZW back into the fold when the WOs can 50 seat flying cheaper ie Piedmont and Envoy plus AA is trying to distance it’s self from 50 seat flying as much as it can on the east coast markets.

The regionals are going to get hit with the whipsaw and the pay is going to get slashed again we saw this in the pasted and with a bunch of pilots on furlough it will happen again mark my words its just a matter of who takes the concessions first at this point, and if ZW does they will get the flying

Somewhat yes, but the overarching plan has been to simplify regional feed, and while covid adjusts the timeline, eventually we get back to regionals not able to staff what they have. Reinforcing a few strong ones will be AAs plan, much as Delta has done. AA cut Compass after this all kicked off, when they could have been whipsaw. I don’t see AA going back to AWAC, especially considering the substantial 50 seat lift offered at wholly owneds. PSA just waved goodbye to their 200s, so it isn’t a priority.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:52 pm

apodino wrote:
I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door.


Mesa isn't going anywhere. AA still holds like a 10% stake in the company. That gives AA some leverage on the 11th floor.
xx
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:54 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
bigb wrote:

And you suspect incorrectly, AA isn’t bringing ZW back into the fold when the WOs can 50 seat flying cheaper ie Piedmont and Envoy plus AA is trying to distance it’s self from 50 seat flying as much as it can on the east coast markets.

The regionals are going to get hit with the whipsaw and the pay is going to get slashed again we saw this in the pasted and with a bunch of pilots on furlough it will happen again mark my words its just a matter of who takes the concessions first at this point, and if ZW does they will get the flying

Somewhat yes, but the overarching plan has been to simplify regional feed, and while covid adjusts the timeline, eventually we get back to regionals not able to staff what they have. Reinforcing a few strong ones will be AAs plan, much as Delta has done. AA cut Compass after this all kicked off, when they could have been whipsaw. I don’t see AA going back to AWAC, especially considering the substantial 50 seat lift offered at wholly owneds. PSA just waved goodbye to their 200s, so it isn’t a priority.

I don't think staffing is going to be a concern for the next 3-5 years just because of the number of pilots on furlough and how the system gums up when mainline stops hiring from the regionals, I agree its not about 50 seaters this about cr7 and cr9 and using this crisis as a way to push concessions onto regionals again.
 
PowerJet
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:15 pm

With all this, I wonder whats going to happen to ExpressJet?
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:26 pm

I may be imagining this, but I vaguely remember someone here saying that the GoJet 550s being on fairly short CPAs (as low as 2 years). If that is indeed the case, it would be wise for Air Wisconsin to make themselves available as an operator of the type. It seems like SkyWest is more interested in leasing out all these CRJs than they are in operating them, which leaves Mesa and GoJet as the only competition.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:33 pm

apodino wrote:
OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening


No they aren't. OO was profitable in Q1, which was only minimally affected by COVID, especially for the fee-for-departure carriers. The cancellations didn't start in earnest until the very end of March.

There won't be any passenger airline making money in Q2.

As for ZW, and I have read the memo, this is clearly just a virtually cost-free move that positions themselves to be in the conversation for 550/700 flying should it become available.

All of the UA carriers operating only single-class 50 seaters are on notice. And it would behoove any and all of them to start looking to do whatever they can to adapt to a post-COVID regional world.

United has no qualms with whipsawing regionals, but it's difficult to see any of ZW, C5, or EV getting into the currently scoped-out large RJ market (either 70 or, especially, 76 seaters). So the 550 may be the only 50-seat airplane flying around under the UA banner within a couple of years.

This just seems like low-hanging fruit that doesn't cost ZW any money.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
N766UA
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:09 pm

PowerJet wrote:
With all this, I wonder whats going to happen to ExpressJet?


The same thing that always happens to ExpressJet: they're gonna get screwed.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:28 pm

mhockey31091 wrote:
G7 is in a horrible position financially, they had to stop taking deliveries of the remaining 550's because of it. From what I've heard OO management turned down the opportunity to fly the 550's because UA wanted us to fly them at the 200 rate because they are a 50 seater. Post COVID, who knows what they will come up with.


You guys have a bunch of your Delta Connection CJ900's parked at SBN. Also I noticed on FlightAware that most of the OO SBN-ORD flying is being done by your CRJ700's probably for social distancing.
 
saab2000
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:41 am

apodino wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
apodino wrote:

OO is still profitable even with the COVID happening and with the contracts they have they are actually in a position where they can turn down flying. ZW may be looking at a situation they have to accept just to stay in business. This play may be CJH holdings basically saying they want to keep Air Wisconsin around rather than walk away. If this flying is signed and guaranteed, the owners will spend the money for the 550's. With G7 only flying 550's and not being able to take delivery because of money issues, that sounds like it may be the final nail in the coffin of TSH in general, and Hulas may have to close it up.

Over the next few months were going to see the whipsaw start up again and it will become the battle of who is desperate enough to sign this terrible CPA and it looks like airwhisky is getting ready to take some cut rate flying from someone maybe G7 or maybe going after some AA flying

I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door. That would leave them with OO and RP and the three wholly owneds. That is consistent with the direction AA want to take the Eagle brand.


Long time no hear friend!

I hope ZW lives long and prospers. This from a long-time (but now former) AWACer.
smrtrthnu
 
alasizon
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Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:48 am

usxguy wrote:
apodino wrote:
I doubt ZW will go back to AA. AA is trying to streamline the regional operation by using fewer regional carriers, and bringing ZW back would go in the other direction. AA is currently down to 6 partners, and of those 3 are wholly owned, and rumor has had it for months that AA is trying to figure out a way to show Mesa the door.


Mesa isn't going anywhere. AA still holds like a 10% stake in the company. That gives AA some leverage on the 11th floor.


Most of AA's stake went into the IPO. I believe at most they hold about 3-4%

Either way though, ZW isn't coming back to AA. This is squarely targeted at the G7 flying and someone will know better than I do, but I believe that the lease contract for a large number of the frames is between G7 and OO (as opposed to UA) so I believe in order for G7 to get out from the cost of accepting new frames someone else would have to still go accept them otherwise they are on the hook for the lease costs.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
crjflyer35
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:26 am

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:36 pm

ZW purchased a CRJ-700 recently. Currently sitting in ATW for conformity checks apparently. N83EA.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:40 pm

crjflyer35 wrote:
ZW purchased a CRJ-700 recently. Currently sitting in ATW for conformity checks apparently. N83EA.


This seems to be the plane you referenced. It operated a flight from LAS to ATW as Elite Airways flight 83 last Saturday (9/26). Bank of Utah, Trustee appears to still be the owner of record, but the paperwork transferring ownership could still be in process.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N83EA
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:41 pm

What people in the GoJet world have said is that Trans States Holdings has had to pay for the interior mods to each 550. I think many of us assumed that United was paying for that, either up front, or in long term additions to the CPA rate to offset the initial cost. And while I think that might have looked appealing to TSH pre-Covid, it clearly is biting them hard now. It certainly sounds like the United of old to put all of the cost onto everyone else, then be 'shocked and disappointed' when they don't want to keep playing.

Rumors also suggested that the financial incentives behind the CPA for the 550s were insufficient unless the fleet were fairly substantial. I suspect both are indeed true. SkyWest has been on the receiving end of too many of United's, "we went with someone cheaper" moments to ever agree again to a deal that even suggested compensation would magically appear on the back end of a deal with UA. (For instance, the 2008-9 award of station management in the ORD or mid continent region, the 2012 award of station management up and down the West coast, etc. Each of these invariably ended with United spending far more, both immediately and long term, to manage the stations that were awarded to a theoretically lower cost bidder.) With United's recent behavior killing first Trans States, and then ExpressJet in favor of a lower cost alternative, I think they may finally have poisoned the well. That is, it is quite clear that in any contract with United, you -must- make sure that your costs are fully covered, your profit is clear, and clearly attainable, and that you have sufficient leverage that UA cannot Trans-States or ExpressJet you.

One last juicy tidbit - Subodh Karnik who has racked up a string of disasters in his career and was assisted into partial ownership/CEO of ExpressJet after leaving CommutAir (who do _not_ want him back, thank you!) will be winding down EV, but then is headed to take the helm at GoJet, according to many in ATL. (Cue: Don't Fear the Reaper, from Blue Oyster Cult.)

From Atlanta, I'm told many are feeling like the villagers at the end of Fiddler on the Roof:
boy: Rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tzar?
Rabbi: Hmm... May God bless and keep the Tzar,... far from us!

In truth, I think many, and now many more feel exactly that way about United, not just Mr. Karnik.

Perhaps the question of the day is: Will the carrier/carriers who are 'awarded' 550 flying by the great and powerful UA come to feel the same way about them?
 
dstblj52
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:25 pm

eugdjinn wrote:
What people in the GoJet world have said is that Trans States Holdings has had to pay for the interior mods to each 550. I think many of us assumed that United was paying for that, either up front, or in long term additions to the CPA rate to offset the initial cost. And while I think that might have looked appealing to TSH pre-Covid, it clearly is biting them hard now. It certainly sounds like the United of old to put all of the cost onto everyone else, then be 'shocked and disappointed' when they don't want to keep playing.

Rumors also suggested that the financial incentives behind the CPA for the 550s were insufficient unless the fleet were fairly substantial. I suspect both are indeed true. SkyWest has been on the receiving end of too many of United's, "we went with someone cheaper" moments to ever agree again to a deal that even suggested compensation would magically appear on the back end of a deal with UA. (For instance, the 2008-9 award of station management in the ORD or mid continent region, the 2012 award of station management up and down the West coast, etc. Each of these invariably ended with United spending far more, both immediately and long term, to manage the stations that were awarded to a theoretically lower cost bidder.) With United's recent behavior killing first Trans States, and then ExpressJet in favor of a lower cost alternative, I think they may finally have poisoned the well. That is, it is quite clear that in any contract with United, you -must- make sure that your costs are fully covered, your profit is clear, and clearly attainable, and that you have sufficient leverage that UA cannot Trans-States or ExpressJet you.

One last juicy tidbit - Subodh Karnik who has racked up a string of disasters in his career and was assisted into partial ownership/CEO of ExpressJet after leaving CommutAir (who do _not_ want him back, thank you!) will be winding down EV, but then is headed to take the helm at GoJet, according to many in ATL. (Cue: Don't Fear the Reaper, from Blue Oyster Cult.)

From Atlanta, I'm told many are feeling like the villagers at the end of Fiddler on the Roof:
boy: Rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tzar?
Rabbi: Hmm... May God bless and keep the Tzar,... far from us!

In truth, I think many, and now many more feel exactly that way about United, not just Mr. Karnik.

Perhaps the question of the day is: Will the carrier/carriers who are 'awarded' 550 flying by the great and powerful UA come to feel the same way about them?

United has been the black reaper of regionals for a long time and the idea they were able to get an extremely good deal out of a gojet that was about to lose half their fleet when delta announced they were transferring the aircraft to 9e and oo. Besides Gojet was bleeding pilots at that point and if they didn't have a good answer for what the future held they may have experienced death by completion factor, in fact if I had to guess that deal with united is basically at cost with no or minimal profit which would have been fine with the other two branches of TSH flying to cover overhead but their gone and with the cut hour they have to be bleeding badly.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Air Wisconsin Takes Delivery of First CRJ-700

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:17 am

Rumored for months, but now finally confirmed by the Air Wisc board on APC. One aircraft on the property in Appleton for Conformity, appears to be leased (??) from Elite.

First post incudes a pic of the plane at the hangar.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/air- ... r-atw.html

Given current events, it could be anything from ZW taking over the 550 flying for United (We know Hulas has stated that GoJet cannot survive as a stand-alone operation with just a handful of aircraft), to operating a handful of 700's to keep SkyWest honest, to operating 700's for Midwest Express. Nothing is impossible anymore, IMO.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:45 pm

Per APC, Air Wisconsin is recalling 27 pilots as of Nov 1, leaving 137 still on furlough.
Nothing solid, but rumors still say the 700 program is gearing up.

Gojet 550's? Or the old MESA birds?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:34 pm

I hope AWAC survive. They’ve been a solid airline that didn’t jump into the concessions game, and had the best contract for a long while.
 
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Amwest2United
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

Re: Rumor: Air Wisconsin to get CRJ-550/700s?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:46 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Per APC, Air Wisconsin is recalling 27 pilots as of Nov 1, leaving 137 still on furlough.
Nothing solid, but rumors still say the 700 program is gearing up.

Gojet 550's? Or the old MESA birds?



Guess is the old Mesa CR7's - 4 of them in TUS already for conversion.
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