Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
OB1504 wrote:For anyone else who was confused by the OP using IATA codes from two decades ago, JI was the second Midway Airlines and QQ was Reno Air.
USAirALB wrote:By the time JI was quite large at RDU (late 1990s), AA had already abandoned their North/South connecting hub strategy for the East Coast. IIRC, the RDU hub was already drawn down by 1994/1995. I think JI reached its peak around 1999/2000 when they acquired 73Gs for RDU-West Coast routes.
SJC was also a more lucrative market at the time than RDU prior to the dot com bubble burst.
sprxUSA wrote:Reno Air was more than a feeder carrier. Having flown MD-80/87/90s to SEA ANC FAI PDX RDM RNO LAS TUS ABQ DEN COS ORD DTW MSP SFO SJC DRO GPT PIE IFP MCI LAX SNA ONT YVR among others over their existence. Only reno Air Express was a feeder and it was fairly small. They were a decent sized operation.
The purchase by AA gave them another shot at a SJC hub that they failed at again. Too bad there was no 'third time's a charm' scenario LOL.
Perhaps fleet commonality between AA and QQ made a purchase more enviable than with the fleet Midway had.
Not sure which happened first, but mayb e AA learned enough of a lesson in one that they didn't repeat the same thing with the other.
USAirALB wrote:By the time JI was quite large at RDU (late 1990s), AA had already abandoned their North/South connecting hub strategy for the East Coast. IIRC, the RDU hub was already drawn down by 1994/1995. I think JI reached its peak around 1999/2000 when they acquired 73Gs for RDU-West Coast routes.
RDUDDJI wrote:That's pretty accurate. JI actually peaked in 2001 (before 9/11). I worked there from '99-'01. Prior to 9/11 AA had ended the codeshare with JI. That alone was a serious blow to JI. AA had a significant amount of FFers in the RDU area back then. After the codeshare ended, most of the RDU AA flyers moved back to AA metal (even though that often required a connection).
After the AA breakup, JI codeshared with NW for a while. However, NW had nothing near the amount of loyalty in the RDU area that AA did. Losing the AA FFers, coupled with the arrival of WN in ~2000 was really tough 1-2 punch for JI...and they were really leveraged with new 737 aircraft. Summer of '01 they entered bankruptcy, then of course 9/11 happened and that was it for JI*.
It is interesting to think about if they would have been acquired had they survived. I think they would have been a good match for AA, F9, and perhaps others.
*Yes they came back briefly in months after 9/11 (around December if memory serves), but it was a fraction of the size and only lasted a few months.
N649DL wrote:I flew Midway on EWR-RDU-MCO in 2001 out of the AA gates at EWR on a CRJ connecting to a 73G to MCO out of RDU. Oddly enough, Midway seemed like an LCC for AA as they used their former RDU hub concourse and even the seats were blue leather (almost the same seats as on the AA S80s at the time which were cloth with leather headrests).
The odd thing is post 9/11, Midway liquidated and AA assumed many of their routes which they used to fly when they hubbed at RDU. No idea why, but for instance American Eagle flew EWR-RDU on ERJ through 2008. So AA basically assumed RDU as a focus city in the mid-2000s after completely shutting it down as a major hub in 1995.
FYI: AA flew RDU-LGW out of the Midway gates at the time and QQ were actively promoting RDU-SJC in 2001 as well. They served Mints and had no IFE but had a very clean product. No complaints but wish AA was still Hubbing at RDU at the time.
caflyboy wrote:OB1504 wrote:For anyone else who was confused by the OP using IATA codes from two decades ago, JI was the second Midway Airlines and QQ was Reno Air.
Sorry you were confused. Did they have other codes?
caflyboy wrote:Why did AA not buy JI and it did by QQ?
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:N649DL wrote:I flew Midway on EWR-RDU-MCO in 2001 out of the AA gates at EWR on a CRJ connecting to a 73G to MCO out of RDU. Oddly enough, Midway seemed like an LCC for AA as they used their former RDU hub concourse and even the seats were blue leather (almost the same seats as on the AA S80s at the time which were cloth with leather headrests).
The odd thing is post 9/11, Midway liquidated and AA assumed many of their routes which they used to fly when they hubbed at RDU. No idea why, but for instance American Eagle flew EWR-RDU on ERJ through 2008. So AA basically assumed RDU as a focus city in the mid-2000s after completely shutting it down as a major hub in 1995.
FYI: AA flew RDU-LGW out of the Midway gates at the time and QQ were actively promoting RDU-SJC in 2001 as well. They served Mints and had no IFE but had a very clean product. No complaints but wish AA was still Hubbing at RDU at the time.
Funny timing on this thread as I was just looking at Midway timrtable's yesterday. The west coast routes started in January 2001. But even as early as 1998 RDU was really built-out well as a north/south hub. RDU-SJC was first, maybe to compliment AA because of the code share?
American continued to fly MIA-RDU throughout this period because of the AA hub in MIA. FLL had Midway service I believe the whole time the airline existed. Interestingly like the EWR example above, American Eagle flew RDU-FLL after the Midway collapse, and cut it in 2005 or 2006.
N649DL wrote:I flew Midway on EWR-RDU-MCO in 2001 out of the AA gates at EWR on a CRJ connecting to a 73G to MCO out of RDU. Oddly enough, Midway seemed like an LCC for AA as they used their former RDU hub concourse and even the seats were blue leather (almost the same seats as on the AA S80s at the time which were cloth with leather headrests).
The odd thing is post 9/11, Midway liquidated and AA assumed many of their routes which they used to fly when they hubbed at RDU. No idea why, but for instance American Eagle flew EWR-RDU on ERJ through 2008. So AA basically assumed RDU as a focus city in the mid-2000s after completely shutting it down as a major hub in 1995.
FYI: AA flew RDU-LGW out of the Midway gates at the time and QQ were actively promoting RDU-SJC in 2001 as well. They served Mints and had no IFE but had a very clean product. No complaints but wish AA was still Hubbing at RDU at the time.
caflyboy wrote:Why did AA not buy JI and it did by QQ?
USAirALB wrote:I seem to recall them having A320s at one point as well.
RDUDDJI wrote:caflyboy wrote:Why did AA not buy JI and it did by QQ?
Could be many reasons, but I think timing was probably the biggest issue. AA had the QQ acquisition in 99 and the TW one right after that in 01. Then there was 9/11. The other one is fleet. The 737 and 73G's may have fit well into AA's fleet and possibly the F100's (although JI was already planning to retire them and I think AA was too), and then of course they would have had to find something to do with all the 30 or so CRJs. QQ had an all Mad Dog fleet which was somewhat easier to integrate with AA's existing MD fleet.
N649DL wrote:Guys, I'm sorry: I got my airline operator codes wrong. I thought QQ was Midway and forgot QQ was Reno Air and JI was Midway. So when I said QQ I really meant Midway.RDUDDJI wrote:caflyboy wrote:Why did AA not buy JI and it did by QQ?
Could be many reasons, but I think timing was probably the biggest issue. AA had the QQ acquisition in 99 and the TW one right after that in 01. Then there was 9/11. The other one is fleet. The 737 and 73G's may have fit well into AA's fleet and possibly the F100's (although JI was already planning to retire them and I think AA was too), and then of course they would have had to find something to do with all the 30 or so CRJs. QQ had an all Mad Dog fleet which was somewhat easier to integrate with AA's existing MD fleet.
I think AA was more than satisfied with having Midway be a code share partner and if/when it would've been appropriate for them to acquire JI, it was when they were already in the heat of integrating TWA. However, it remains a mystery as to why AA jumped in so quickly to fly JI routes once they liquidated in 2002 when they canned RDU as a major hub in the mid-1990s. Not to mention most of these AE additions to RDU weren't heavily promoted, and (if anything) rather silent. I think AA had such a massive elite base in RDU that they probably didn't have to as locals were probably "In the Know" that AA was coming back to town as a Focus City (AA also had a crew base and Call Center in RDU at the time). Plus AE was probably focusing on O&D at RDU whereas JI was using it more as a north to south connecting hub operation. IIRC, in 2007 AA starting using RDU for more connections as I recall at EWR at a neighboring gate, the EWR-RDU flight continued on-wards to SDF (very oddball connection.)
Perhaps acquiring JI was on the back burner or something in the mid-2000s but that plan got canned since JI ran out of cash and filed Chapter 7 instead. Also the brief build up of AA mainline additions and addition AE routes in 2006-2007 only to be sliced completed in 2008-2009 is also a bit mysterious as well.
USAirALB wrote:N649DL wrote:Guys, I'm sorry: I got my airline operator codes wrong. I thought QQ was Midway and forgot QQ was Reno Air and JI was Midway. So when I said QQ I really meant Midway.RDUDDJI wrote:
Could be many reasons, but I think timing was probably the biggest issue. AA had the QQ acquisition in 99 and the TW one right after that in 01. Then there was 9/11. The other one is fleet. The 737 and 73G's may have fit well into AA's fleet and possibly the F100's (although JI was already planning to retire them and I think AA was too), and then of course they would have had to find something to do with all the 30 or so CRJs. QQ had an all Mad Dog fleet which was somewhat easier to integrate with AA's existing MD fleet.
I think AA was more than satisfied with having Midway be a code share partner and if/when it would've been appropriate for them to acquire JI, it was when they were already in the heat of integrating TWA. However, it remains a mystery as to why AA jumped in so quickly to fly JI routes once they liquidated in 2002 when they canned RDU as a major hub in the mid-1990s. Not to mention most of these AE additions to RDU weren't heavily promoted, and (if anything) rather silent. I think AA had such a massive elite base in RDU that they probably didn't have to as locals were probably "In the Know" that AA was coming back to town as a Focus City (AA also had a crew base and Call Center in RDU at the time). Plus AE was probably focusing on O&D at RDU whereas JI was using it more as a north to south connecting hub operation. IIRC, in 2007 AA starting using RDU for more connections as I recall at EWR at a neighboring gate, the EWR-RDU flight continued on-wards to SDF (very oddball connection.)
Perhaps acquiring JI was on the back burner or something in the mid-2000s but that plan got canned since JI ran out of cash and filed Chapter 7 instead. Also the brief build up of AA mainline additions and addition AE routes in 2006-2007 only to be sliced completed in 2008-2009 is also a bit mysterious as well.
I’ve always wondered this myself as well.
I don’t recall AA ever classifying RDU as a focus city or anything nor do I ever recall seeing big press releases announcing new RDU service other than the “New Routes” page AA had on their website.
IIRC at its height in around 2006-2007 they had RDU-ORD/JFK/LGA/EWR/BOS/BDL/DFW/MIA/STL/CMH/DCA/MCI/JAX/SDF/AUS. All very corporate routes. I am trying to find an old AA PDF timetable somewhere on the web because I am curious to see what the frequency of some of the routes was. I can’t imagine they all operated on the weekend given their business nature.
Several routes were mysteriously absent that I think would have made sense, the most notable one to me that sticks out is LAX. BNA/ALB/PVD also seemed like holes to me.
They also stayed away from leisure routes whatsoever. I think they ran RDU-MCO on an ERJ at one point during the weekends along with RDU-FLL/NAS for one season. I also seem to recall them announcing RDU-SJC but never starting it.