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Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:36 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.



Not at all, yes the planes were older and not as efficient, but the real killer was Karabu.If you look at your dates, yes there were a couple of routes cut, but come June 1995 the Karabu Corp came into being and the real pain started for TW at JFK.

sjones1975 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737


Karabu indeed played a huge role in accelerating the end of the line for TWA (as did the entire Icahn era at the company) it wasn't the only factor. Without a LHR link, with Wall Street in particular expanding rapidly in London, and a shrinking domestic route network mostly focused around JFK (in the NY area, that is) TWA was not the go to choice for corporate travel departments particularly with DL and AA's then footprint across the major airports in the region and by 1995, CO was finally headed in the right direction and rolling out what was then a very compelling product in BusinessFirst. TWA's products were not yet really being reworked (Trans World One and the rebranding effort launched a little later). The Flight 800 disaster in 1996 was seen by many as TWA's version of Pan Am 103 and just further accelerated the company's demise. Unfortunately for TWA, the crash happened on the same day the company reported a $100+ million dollar profit.

In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:38 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.


As you can tell from my namesake - TWA902, that flight was JFK-BCN, usually a 767-200ER. In July 1997, I flew the route on a 747-100, however. The flight was also continuing onto CDG, routing was JFK-BCN-CDG. I am not sure if that was a one-time consolidation or if the flight operated as such frequently. The return flight BCN-JFK was on a 767-200ER and I believe was TWA #917.

'902

Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting that TWA routed so much capacity through CDG in the second half of the 1990s. TW 800 was operating its normal JFK-CDG routing and was due to continue on to FCO. CDG operated as a scissor hub of sorts for TWA over the years, with GVA, ZRH, and TLV served from there as extensions to/from US bound flights. Interesting that your flight had a BCN-CDG tag to it. To my knowledge, TWA did not operate regular services between France and Spain in the 1980s and 1990s.


Was CDG the launching point for the 727 flights TW operated in Europe? I know PA had the IGS, which evolved into DL's FRA hub and UA's was out of LHR(?)
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:28 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:

As you can tell from my namesake - TWA902, that flight was JFK-BCN, usually a 767-200ER. In July 1997, I flew the route on a 747-100, however. The flight was also continuing onto CDG, routing was JFK-BCN-CDG. I am not sure if that was a one-time consolidation or if the flight operated as such frequently. The return flight BCN-JFK was on a 767-200ER and I believe was TWA #917.

'902

Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting that TWA routed so much capacity through CDG in the second half of the 1990s. TW 800 was operating its normal JFK-CDG routing and was due to continue on to FCO. CDG operated as a scissor hub of sorts for TWA over the years, with GVA, ZRH, and TLV served from there as extensions to/from US bound flights. Interesting that your flight had a BCN-CDG tag to it. To my knowledge, TWA did not operate regular services between France and Spain in the 1980s and 1990s.


Was CDG the launching point for the 727 flights TW operated in Europe? I know PA had the IGS, which evolved into DL's FRA hub and UA's was out of LHR(?)


Not exclusively, and at different times TWA had different intra-Europe operations. From CDG there was GVA and ZRH, but ZRH was occasionally a nonstop to JFK (and GVA went nonstop as well to JFK at one time, with an extension to VIE but it did not last). CDG-GVA/ZRH was 727s and in summer, the L1011 was used on the GVA extension. TWA also had 727s flying TXL-STR-ZRH to connect to ZRH-JFK (in 1989, Malev was a partner and fed into the JFK-ZRH flight from BUD). TWA had at times LHR-FRA, BRU-MUC extensions (BRU-MUC was often an L1011 continuing from the JFK flight). CPH was at times connected to ARN and FBU and at times it was some sort of triangle route with the same 767 touching all airports. IST had a connection from FRA. In 1992, there was an extension from I think BRU to SVO on the 727, and BRU-CPH as well. In short, it was all over the place. Pan Am seemed to have a much more defined intra-Europe schedule but I am no expert on a comparison of the two without closely examining the route maps from each year specifically in the 1980s. And while not intra-Europe, TWA also flew CDG-TLV-CDG using L1011s and 762s.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:12 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.


LHR had TW700/701 and TW702/703 year round on B747's for most of the 80's and until the LHR sale. In the summer they had TW708/709 as an earlier departure on an L-1011.

The somewhat strange GF tie up was a GF L-1011 that actually operated as a 4th daily LHR-JFK flight, operated by TWA crews. I think it lasted a couple of seasons.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
amc737
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:50 am

In the last peak summer TWA operated to Heathrow (1990) they did have 4 daily New York JFKs, 700, 702, 704 & 708. 702 was an L1011 with an evening arrival at Heathrow. This was alongside a daily Boston with an L1011, Chicago also with an L1011, Los Angeles with a 747 and Philadelphia with a 767. I also believe there was an 727 from Frankfurt each evening.

amc737
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:56 am

sjones1975 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737

In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.


My understanding of the Karabu agreement was that it only applied to existing routes that connected through (but did not begin or end in) STL. It did still impact the European operation to a degree (hence the cuts) but it didnt apply to a lot of new flying to Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as Hawaii and some attempts at focus hubs in LAX, ATL and SJU.

ATL was a car crash but a lot of the new flying, not hogtied by Karabu, was successful. If TWA could just have held on until 2003 when the Karabu agreement was due to end they would have been in pretty decent shape and able to grow.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:22 am

sevenheavy wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737

In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.


My understanding of the Karabu agreement was that it only applied to existing routes that connected through (but did not begin or end in) STL. It did still impact the European operation to a degree (hence the cuts) but it didnt apply to a lot of new flying to Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as Hawaii and some attempts at focus hubs in LAX, ATL and SJU.

ATL was a car crash but a lot of the new flying, not hogtied by Karabu, was successful. If TWA could just have held on until 2003 when the Karabu agreement was due to end they would have been in pretty decent shape and able to grow.


TWA as a stand alone carrier, would most likely not have survived 9/11. The balance sheets of the other carriers, with the exception of USAirways and America West, which ended up merging in 2005 (USAirways itself nearly filed Chapter 7 in 2004), were stronger and more resilient at the time, over TWA's which ended the 1990s very weak financially.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:24 am

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.


LHR had TW700/701 and TW702/703 year round on B747's for most of the 80's and until the LHR sale. In the summer they had TW708/709 as an earlier departure on an L-1011.

The somewhat strange GF tie up was a GF L-1011 that actually operated as a 4th daily LHR-JFK flight, operated by TWA crews. I think it lasted a couple of seasons.


Yes, I remember seeing the Gulf Air L1011 at the Flight Center and I think it operated the latest departure from LHR among the cycle of TWA flights between LHR and JFK.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:12 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.


My understanding of the Karabu agreement was that it only applied to existing routes that connected through (but did not begin or end in) STL. It did still impact the European operation to a degree (hence the cuts) but it didnt apply to a lot of new flying to Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as Hawaii and some attempts at focus hubs in LAX, ATL and SJU.

ATL was a car crash but a lot of the new flying, not hogtied by Karabu, was successful. If TWA could just have held on until 2003 when the Karabu agreement was due to end they would have been in pretty decent shape and able to grow.


TWA as a stand alone carrier, would most likely not have survived 9/11. The balance sheets of the other carriers, with the exception of USAirways and America West, which ended up merging in 2005 (USAirways itself nearly filed Chapter 7 in 2004), were stronger and more resilient at the time, over TWA's which ended the 1990s very weak financially.


Agreed, they almost certainly wouldn’t have made it through 9/11. My point being that (external factors such as 9/11 aside) if they could have got to 2003, having already made significant operational, fleet and service improvements their long term outlook was far more positive without the shackles or Karabu
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:24 pm

Gulf Air flight IIRC was JFK-LHR and onward to one of four Gulf cities. L1011.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:58 pm

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:



My understanding of the Karabu agreement was that it only applied to existing routes that connected through (but did not begin or end in) STL. It did still impact the European operation to a degree (hence the cuts) but it didnt apply to a lot of new flying to Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as Hawaii and some attempts at focus hubs in LAX, ATL and SJU.

ATL was a car crash but a lot of the new flying, not hogtied by Karabu, was successful. If TWA could just have held on until 2003 when the Karabu agreement was due to end they would have been in pretty decent shape and able to grow.


TWA as a stand alone carrier, would most likely not have survived 9/11. The balance sheets of the other carriers, with the exception of USAirways and America West, which ended up merging in 2005 (USAirways itself nearly filed Chapter 7 in 2004), were stronger and more resilient at the time, over TWA's which ended the 1990s very weak financially.


Agreed, they almost certainly wouldn’t have made it through 9/11. My point being that (external factors such as 9/11 aside) if they could have got to 2003, having already made significant operational, fleet and service improvements their long term outlook was far more positive without the shackles or Karabu



That’s what Bill Compton used to say.

I didnt believe it then and I dont believe it now.

They were rapidly shrinking. They were losing lots of money.

If you extend the trend out, you would have seen an airline with MD 80s and 757s with a single useless hub in St Louis.
 
AA747123
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:13 pm

Coexstud wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

AA didn’t have any 747 on property in 91 they were either sold or wet leased to other carriers or governments by then


American still had 2 747sp's property in 1991, I think they left around 1993-1994
 
boston5555
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:13 pm

Love this topic. I used to routinely fly TWA LAX-JFK-MAD in the late 80's when I was in college at UCSB and my family was in Madrid. Recall the L1011 to JFK and then the 747 to MAD. I have so many vivid and fond memories of the JFK Intl terminal in the evening hours - all of the flights heading out to all parts Europe and the excitement of crossing the Atlantic. The TWA departures board was a "who's who" in Europe.
Also loved the upgrade to first ... I remember boarding the 747 and the appetizer/drink/newspaper cart in the middle of the cabin, weather delays in the summer contributing to interminable taxis, and the old Ambassador Club access. Did one final jaunt in early 90's all the way to BCN which, at that time, was LAX-JFK-MAD-BCN, with the European leg still on the 747. I know they say never give in to nostalgia ... but there was something memorable about the TWA JFK experience.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:43 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

TWA as a stand alone carrier, would most likely not have survived 9/11. The balance sheets of the other carriers, with the exception of USAirways and America West, which ended up merging in 2005 (USAirways itself nearly filed Chapter 7 in 2004), were stronger and more resilient at the time, over TWA's which ended the 1990s very weak financially.


Agreed, they almost certainly wouldn’t have made it through 9/11. My point being that (external factors such as 9/11 aside) if they could have got to 2003, having already made significant operational, fleet and service improvements their long term outlook was far more positive without the shackles or Karabu



That’s what Bill Compton used to say.

I didnt believe it then and I dont believe it now.

They were rapidly shrinking. They were losing lots of money.

If you extend the trend out, you would have seen an airline with MD 80s and 757s with a single useless hub in St Louis.


I'm with you on that. TWA simply wasn't going to survive the industry's post 9/11 crisis as an independent carrier. I'm not sure but I seem to recall by the time it filed for the final time, in Q1-2001 as part of the AA acquisition, TWA was essentially out of money. The JFK footprint at that point was insignificant and a very small skeleton of what it was a decade or more prior. The STL hub was useless indeed. Lots of flights yes, but not a big enough O&D market to make yields strong. Every plane TWA was leasing was bleeding cash due to its poor credit rating. Icahn cut off TWA's legs in the 1980s and Karabu finished the company, and it hobbled along until the last dime was gone. UA, DL, and AA were by then that much bigger and had the margin and cost advantages that TWA could never close in on.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:48 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Coexstud wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

AA didn’t have any 747 on property in 91 they were either sold or wet leased to other carriers or governments by then


American still had 2 747sp's property in 1991, I think they left around 1993-1994


American had the 2 747SP's until 1994. One went to Kazakstan Airlines N601AA. The other, N602AA went to the United Arab Emirates Government.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:59 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.



Not at all, yes the planes were older and not as efficient, but the real killer was Karabu.If you look at your dates, yes there were a couple of routes cut, but come June 1995 the Karabu Corp came into being and the real pain started for TW at JFK.

sjones1975 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737


In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.


There are many articles mentioning that Erickson was in London on business at the time of the crash (google it). Here's an article specifically stating he was in London seeking JFK-LHR route authority: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

Given how difficult LHR route authority was to obtain (this was pre-Open Skies), not to mention LHR landing slots, it may be a bit difficult to believe that Erickson was seeking a return to London via LHR. But it's not hard at all to believe that he was seeking a return to London via some other LON airport. By July 1996, TWA had already gotten rid of the bad Karabu deal through its 1995 bankruptcy. Also, during that period in 1996 (pre-TWA 800), TWA's financial position wasn't bad. While it's true that the 1990s were a period of huge decline for the airline, the decade wasn't a consistent downwards spiral. There were also some (brief) periods of decent to good results; many people don't realize this. TWA reported strong profits for the second quarter of 1996, exactly when Erickson was over in London. Earnings increased to $25.3M, up from $5.2M during the same quarter in 1995. ($25.3M may not seem much compared to modern-day Delta's pre-COVID quarterly earnings over the past few years, but it was pretty good for an airline of TWA's size back in 1996. Remember, around that time, TWA was much smaller than the major airlines; in 1996 TWA was about a quarter of the size of 1996 United Airlines.)

Also, here's a Feb. 1996 article on TWA's financial recovery (of course, the article is pre-TWA 800):
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/15/busi ... wa-is.html
The article states that Erickson said that TWA would seek to expand its service to Europe. That expansion never happened after TWA 800, but it's not hard to believe that during the brief window of rising fortunes in 1996, that TWA was seeking to get back into the JFK-LON game.

Incidentally, another brief period of rising fortunes for TWA, during a decade that overall was bad, was late 1997 into 1998. TWA had some good quarterly profits during this period (even if it didn't end up making annual profits), and it was in a good enough financial state to place $3.9B in orders for the 717, a318 and a320.
my longest flight in a 757: FRU-ADA-SNN-BWI
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:27 pm

The challenge in the post-TW800 period for getting TWA back into the London market, Heathrow or otherwise, was the intense competition and the dynamics of the NY-LON market, which thanks to the Pan Am sale to UA and the TWA sale to AA, had altered the landscape substantially. Frequency was key. FF base and corp contracts another. BA had added more capacity and VS was also a significant player. It was something like 6 AA nonstops (JFK) and an EWR one too, 3 UA nonstops (JFK) plus 1 (EWR), VS had 2 or 3 from JFK and 1 from EWR, and BA had at least 5 at JFK and 1 or 2 at EWR, if not more altogether. It would have been next to impossible to get TWA back into LHR as B2 firmly established it as a 4 way race between AA, UA, BA, and VS. TWA could have gotten a LGW route going, maybe STN, and STN might have been an advantage, but it all seems like a mad scramble happening just as a major crash further eroded public and investor perception in TWA. Wall Street analysts were, in 1996-7 writing off TWA and expecting the bulk of the assets to be eventually sold off.
 
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STT757
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:10 pm

TWA towards the end were trying to reorient themselves to Caribbean and Mexico;

EWR-CUN 1 M80, FPO 1 M80, PUJ 1 M80
SJU-BOS 1757, FLL 1 M80, 1 757, JFK 4 757, LAX 1 757, MCO 1 M80, STL 1 M80, 2 757
SDQ-BOS 1 757, SDQ-JFK 1 757
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:48 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.



Not at all, yes the planes were older and not as efficient, but the real killer was Karabu.If you look at your dates, yes there were a couple of routes cut, but come June 1995 the Karabu Corp came into being and the real pain started for TW at JFK.

sjones1975 wrote:

In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.


There are many articles mentioning that Erickson was in London on business at the time of the crash (google it). Here's an article specifically stating he was in London seeking JFK-LHR route authority: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

Given how difficult LHR route authority was to obtain (this was pre-Open Skies), not to mention LHR landing slots, it may be a bit difficult to believe that Erickson was seeking a return to London via LHR. But it's not hard at all to believe that he was seeking a return to London via some other LON airport. By July 1996, TWA had already gotten rid of the bad Karabu deal through its 1995 bankruptcy. Also, during that period in 1996 (pre-TWA 800), TWA's financial position wasn't bad. While it's true that the 1990s were a period of huge decline for the airline, the decade wasn't a consistent downwards spiral. There were also some (brief) periods of decent to good results; many people don't realize this. TWA reported strong profits for the second quarter of 1996, exactly when Erickson was over in London. Earnings increased to $25.3M, up from $5.2M during the same quarter in 1995. ($25.3M may not seem much compared to modern-day Delta's pre-COVID quarterly earnings over the past few years, but it was pretty good for an airline of TWA's size back in 1996. Remember, around that time, TWA was much smaller than the major airlines; in 1996 TWA was about a quarter of the size of 1996 United Airlines.)

Also, here's a Feb. 1996 article on TWA's financial recovery (of course, the article is pre-TWA 800):
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/15/busi ... wa-is.html
The article states that Erickson said that TWA would seek to expand its service to Europe. That expansion never happened after TWA 800, but it's not hard to believe that during the brief window of rising fortunes in 1996, that TWA was seeking to get back into the JFK-LON game.

Incidentally, another brief period of rising fortunes for TWA, during a decade that overall was bad, was late 1997 into 1998. TWA had some good quarterly profits during this period (even if it didn't end up making annual profits), and it was in a good enough financial state to place $3.9B in orders for the 717, a318 and a320.




You are looking at it in a vacuum. If not this, than that.

The reality is, the airline started to make some money again and kicked off a European expansion with 20 plus year old planes as they couldn’t afford anything else.

This directly led to 800.

By the mid 90s, no US carrier was trying to kick off an expansion with 741s and 742s. It was a ludicrous notion even then.

In a perfect world, this should have been on 330s, 763s, or 777s. Alas, it was not meant to be.

Everyone loves the 747s...but they were old. Even their 767s were old. Everything was old and worn.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:09 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

TWA as a stand alone carrier, would most likely not have survived 9/11. The balance sheets of the other carriers, with the exception of USAirways and America West, which ended up merging in 2005 (USAirways itself nearly filed Chapter 7 in 2004), were stronger and more resilient at the time, over TWA's which ended the 1990s very weak financially.


Agreed, they almost certainly wouldn’t have made it through 9/11. My point being that (external factors such as 9/11 aside) if they could have got to 2003, having already made significant operational, fleet and service improvements their long term outlook was far more positive without the shackles or Karabu



That’s what Bill Compton used to say.

I didnt believe it then and I dont believe it now.

They were rapidly shrinking. They were losing lots of money.

If you extend the trend out, you would have seen an airline with MD 80s and 757s with a single useless hub in St Louis.


I don’t necessarily disagree, and once 9/11 happened they would have been done anyway but the Karabu contract alone cost them (conservatively) $100m a year and prevented them from expanding into established markets, forcing them to start new routes which cost money and take a while to turn a profit.

They had a large fleet of relatively new MD80s, B717s and B757s, as well as a growing fleet of B767-300s. The B757s were quite capable of leading an expansion back into Europe (DL uses those those exact same aircraft across the Atlantic today) that could have been bolstered by higher capacity B76

They ‘could’ have been in much better shape by 2003.

It’s All a moot point, but fun to speculate!

Back to JFK, even during the peak years TWAs operation was very much geared towards transatlantic feed. Aside from a few departures to the West coast and Florida in the morning the terminals were pretty quiet until 2PM or so. On a busy summer day you’d then see 747s and L-1011s arrive one after the other, followed by the B727s coming from domestic stations. They’d depart again, before the long wave of widebody departures in amongst the traffic and never ending lines for departure every evening.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
N649DL
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:26 pm

STT757 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
STT757 wrote:
TWA launched EWR-CDG in 1992, I believe it lasted one Summer and was operated by the 767. This was a weird Summer as DL also offered a EWR-FRA nonstop, again it only last that one Summer.


That was also around the time when AA operated EWR-LHR (which they then dropped) and picked back up in 1998-1999 with the 767 and in 2001 with the A306.

Also, anyone notice how in 1986 (in departedflights) TW operated JFK-EWR? What was that about?


It coincided with the opening of the second concourse of the Terminal B International arrivals facility.

The first pier of the Terminal B International facility , B-3, opened in 1989. Previously Eastern was using B3 and B2 concourses, when Eastern employees went on strike in March 1989 the carrier consolidated to B-2. Previously the International arrivals facility was at a two gate stub concourse at Terminal C where the newer C3 concourse is currently located. After Eastern shut down, January 1991, the Port Authority began work on adding B-2 to the International arrivals facility which was ready for the Summer 1992 season which saw a bunch of new routes from Continental (Munich, Madrid etc..) AA LHR, DL FRA, TWA CDG and other International carriers. A new hall that linked B-2 and B-3 at Terminal B opened in 1996.


I had no idea B-3 opened in 1989. I assumed that opened back when the rest of the terminal did in the early 1970s.

I was more curious about TWA operating JFK-EWR. What was the purpose and what kind of aircraft?
 
catiii
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:42 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I believe (emphasis on believe) FCO was the last 747 route out of JFK.


That is my recollection as well.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:55 pm

Im surprised no one has brought up Terminal 6 or the outdoor connector.

It was an integral part of TWAs JFK operation.

When did the outdoor connection get demolished? It wasnt there once they consolidated at T5.


TWA was so cash poor in the late 90s, there was signage all over T5 with arrows to the “domestic terminal.”

I flew them a lot from JFK to MCO in the late 90s. It was a very very sad situation at JFK
 
richiemo
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:23 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
I believe that in 1994 TWA launched new JFK-GVA-VIE & JFK-GVA-MUC services, and that same year cut out these three cities completely.


YES!!!! Very good. I flew the JFK-GVA-VIE route on a 767-200 in March of '94. Capt Jerry Slick on way home, most informative pilot I've ever flown behind. Was a great trip.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:04 am

Found a June 1, 2000 TWA Timetable.

Remaining Transatlantic:

TW 842 JFK-MXP
TW 884 JFK-TLV
TW 888 JFK-CAI-RUH X7
TW 900 JFK-LIS
TW 924 JFK-CDG

Domestic feeder network was more or less gone.
Only mainline domestic destinations were BOS, FLL, LAX, MIA, MSY, MCO, PBI, SJU, STL, SFO & TPA

I believe SNA was tried later that year right before the AA takeover.

Also should mention they list in the timetable the RJ codeshare to Amsterdam and Amman as well as Royal Air Maroc to Casablanca and Kuwait Airways to Frankfurt and Kuwait.
 
SmithAir747
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:37 pm

In 1994, I flew TWA 904 JFK-MAD. I think I remember the flight continued on to BCN. Is that correct? I came back from MAD-JFK on TWA 903. Did that flight start at BCN, then stop in MAD for the onward flight to JFK?

SmithAir747
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FCOTSTW
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:22 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!


Right. I did the very same route in March 2001 on a 762. I clearly remember how TWA' s Ambassador in-flight magazine was already out of the seat back pockets, showing how TW was already trying to reduce unnecessary expenses.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:23 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!


Right. I did the very same route in March 2001 on a 762. I clearly remember how TWA' s Ambassador in-flight magazine was already out of the seat back pockets, showing how TW was already trying to reduce unnecessary expenses.


STL-FRA was likely coming back in Summer 2001 if TW had made that long as an independent carrier. It was last flown nonstop in 1985 or 1986 though for years was routed STL-LGW-FRA. Ended around 1992. FRA service from JFK ended in 1997, IIRC.
 
Cody
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:48 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!


Right. I did the very same route in March 2001 on a 762. I clearly remember how TWA' s Ambassador in-flight magazine was already out of the seat back pockets, showing how TW was already trying to reduce unnecessary expenses.


STL-FRA was likely coming back in Summer 2001 if TW had made that long as an independent carrier. It was last flown nonstop in 1985 or 1986 though for years was routed STL-LGW-FRA. Ended around 1992. FRA service from JFK ended in 1997, IIRC.


I remember that! STL-FRA and they had authority for STL-Tokyo, but the time slot was bad. They also had received rights to fly to Bahrain from JFK via ATH.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:37 am

Cody wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:

Right. I did the very same route in March 2001 on a 762. I clearly remember how TWA' s Ambassador in-flight magazine was already out of the seat back pockets, showing how TW was already trying to reduce unnecessary expenses.


STL-FRA was likely coming back in Summer 2001 if TW had made that long as an independent carrier. It was last flown nonstop in 1985 or 1986 though for years was routed STL-LGW-FRA. Ended around 1992. FRA service from JFK ended in 1997, IIRC.


I remember that! STL-FRA and they had authority for STL-Tokyo, but the time slot was bad. They also had received rights to fly to Bahrain from JFK via ATH.


My grandparents flew STL-FRA & FRA-LGW-STL during the summer of 1987
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:16 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Found a June 1, 2000 TWA Timetable.

Remaining Transatlantic:

TW 842 JFK-MXP
TW 884 JFK-TLV
TW 888 JFK-CAI-RUH X7
TW 900 JFK-LIS
TW 924 JFK-CDG

Domestic feeder network was more or less gone.
Only mainline domestic destinations were BOS, FLL, LAX, MIA, MSY, MCO, PBI, SJU, STL, SFO & TPA

I believe SNA was tried later that year right before the AA takeover.

Also should mention they list in the timetable the RJ codeshare to Amsterdam and Amman as well as Royal Air Maroc to Casablanca and Kuwait Airways to Frankfurt and Kuwait.



They also started a codeshare with Air Europa before they went down


If I recall, Air Europa wouldnt move to T5...which was telling.

But dont quote me on that. It is a recollection

T5 was in real bad shape. TW was too.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:51 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!


Right. I did the very same route in March 2001 on a 762. I clearly remember how TWA' s Ambassador in-flight magazine was already out of the seat back pockets, showing how TW was already trying to reduce unnecessary expenses.


STL-FRA was likely coming back in Summer 2001 if TW had made that long as an independent carrier. It was last flown nonstop in 1985 or 1986 though for years was routed STL-LGW-FRA. Ended around 1992. FRA service from JFK ended in 1997, IIRC.


Yes, TWA 740/741 JFK-FRA-JFK was cut in 1997 (January). The route was operated mostly with a 747 but post-TWA 800, as the 747s began to be phased out, it was downgauged to a 762. The last flight from FRA to JFK was operated by a 762. There is a YouTube video about it and in it you could see clearly how over staffed TWA's stations could be, notably in FRA, given there was only one daily flight to service, which compounded TWA's financial issues.
 
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fbgdavidson
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:39 pm

Love watching the videos and learning all the details. As a local now and having a father-in-law that worked for TWA at JFK and now of course the TWA Hotel this is all rather fascinating.

From this 1992 video at around 6:25 it has signage in Terminal 5 for China Airlines. Interesting partner to share....no room at the then IAB for China Airlines? Who else used T5 besides TWA during its lifespan? I assume it was only in later years when T5 became quieter....I think I read somewhere that Piedmont used it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRUJTheYTCc
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The777Man
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:43 pm

fbgdavidson wrote:
Love watching the videos and learning all the details. As a local now and having a father-in-law that worked for TWA at JFK and now of course the TWA Hotel this is all rather fascinating.

From this 1992 video at around 6:25 it has signage in Terminal 5 for China Airlines. Interesting partner to share....no room at the then IAB for China Airlines? Who else used T5 besides TWA during its lifespan? I assume it was only in later years when T5 became quieter....I think I read somewhere that Piedmont used it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRUJTheYTCc


Piedmont in T5 makes sense. I flew on USAir in 1989 and 1990 from T5 after the merger between Piedmont and USAir and planes were in hybrid colors then.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
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STT757
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:47 pm

US Air had flights out of T5 that I thought fed TWA International flights.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N3340W
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:27 pm

In July 1992 I flew LGW-STL on TW 721. I don't have any documentation of the aircraft type, but for years have believed it to have been an L1011 based on my memory of the seat layout. The timetable from that summer sadly doesn't list the A/C type. Anyone know of a place where this info might live? I know it's 28 years down the road.....but folks have a lot of knowledge on here.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:48 pm

The777Man wrote:
TW also flew to CPH, ARN and FBU (OSL) for a few years starting around 1988 or so and lasting until Oct92 I think.

As for BCN, in 1993, the BCN flight continued to NCE that was flown for that one summer season. TW 908 operated JFK-BCN-NCE and return. Equipment was a 762.

TW also flew CDG-LAX nonstop a few days a week for the summer of 1994 with the then newly leased 763s. At least one was ex-Condor which was the one i flew on; N691LF

The777Man


Yes, the FBU (OSL), CPH, and ARN routes were mentioned and I believe at least one or more started earlier than '88 but would have to check departed flights again to confirm. I believe TWA flew into NCE once before, in the 1980s for a season, but I'd have to check.

BCN was served on and off nonstop from JFK on TWA. At times it went JFK-LIS-BCN and at others, nonstop, particularly post 1992 (Summer Olympics).
 
The777Man
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:01 pm

N3340W wrote:
In July 1992 I flew LGW-STL on TW 721. I don't have any documentation of the aircraft type, but for years have believed it to have been an L1011 based on my memory of the seat layout. The timetable from that summer sadly doesn't list the A/C type. Anyone know of a place where this info might live? I know it's 28 years down the road.....but folks have a lot of knowledge on here.


I know that in July 1993 they flew a 747 on that route. Doesn't help with 1992 though...

The777Man
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Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:47 am

fbgdavidson wrote:
Love watching the videos and learning all the details. As a local now and having a father-in-law that worked for TWA at JFK and now of course the TWA Hotel this is all rather fascinating.

From this 1992 video at around 6:25 it has signage in Terminal 5 for China Airlines. Interesting partner to share....no room at the then IAB for China Airlines? Who else used T5 besides TWA during its lifespan? I assume it was only in later years when T5 became quieter....I think I read somewhere that Piedmont used it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRUJTheYTCc


Piedmont operated out of the TWA Flight Center and subsequently, USAir did post merger (US with Piedmont). China Airlines did in fact operate from the Flight Center as well. There is an Ang Lee film called "The Wedding Banquet" with scenes filmed outside the Flight Center and inside as well, featuring China Airlines. That movie was released in 1993.

Royal Jordanian operated from the TWA Flight Center for a time. Toward the end of TWA, RJ and TW code shared.

Over at T6, the former Sundrome, that was used principally for TWA's domestic flights, United Airlines relocated there at some point in the late 1990s for its JFK-SFO, JFK-LAX, and JFK-IAD operations, with I believe all other flights it operated out of JFK at the time using T7.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:50 am

fbgdavidson wrote:
Love watching the videos and learning all the details. As a local now and having a father-in-law that worked for TWA at JFK and now of course the TWA Hotel this is all rather fascinating.

From this 1992 video at around 6:25 it has signage in Terminal 5 for China Airlines. Interesting partner to share....no room at the then IAB for China Airlines? Who else used T5 besides TWA during its lifespan? I assume it was only in later years when T5 became quieter....I think I read somewhere that Piedmont used it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRUJTheYTCc


Probably no room at the former IAB for China Airlines at the time. The IAB was bursting at the seams, with the usual TATL and some Deep South America departures around the time that the China Airlines flight arrived and departed. Probably also a protocol issue in that Air China used the Worldport for its operations and there likely was need to keep them separate. I don't recall if TWA and China Airlines code shared.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:52 am

Transbrasil also used the TWA Flight Center for its ops as did Gulf Air for the short lived code-share JFK-LHR and beyond route. Transbrasil used a 767-200ER for its flights. Gulf Air was an L1011-500.
 
jetwet1
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:10 am

sevenheavy wrote:

My understanding of the Karabu agreement was that it only applied to existing routes that connected through (but did not begin or end in) STL. It did still impact the European operation to a degree (hence the cuts) but it didnt apply to a lot of new flying to Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as Hawaii and some attempts at focus hubs in LAX, ATL and SJU.


No, the Karabu agreement covered the entire TWA network, with the exception of any tickets for travel which originated or terminated in St. Louis, Missouri or codeshare tickets. Nothing in there that I could find about new routes being exempt, I could have missed it, please feel free to find it and correct me.

Edit:

Okay, I found an old thread that goes into some detail, I'm running on back to back days of 4 hours sleep, so please feel free to read and point out where I am wrong, I wouldn't be surprised :-)

viewtopic.php?t=39409
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:09 am

Carnival
Sun Country
US Air

All used Terminal 5.

Carnival later moved to T6
 
flyjoe
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:17 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation.


I flew JFK-CDG in May 2001 and it was a 767-300. The return flight back to Denver was by way of the CDG-STL non-stop, also on a 763.
 
Qantas59
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:40 am

Did TW cease operating BOS-FCO summer service around late 1986? Not sure if it returned in later years.
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
Ionosphere
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 am

Below is the final timetable the following destinations appear according to Departedflights.com for JFK & STL:

JFK
Amsterdam - October 31, 1993
Athens - October 27, 1996
Barcelona - June 1, 1998
Cairo - July 2, 2001
Copenhagen - June 1, 1992
Frankfurt - October 27, 1996
Geneva - April 3, 1994
Lisbon - December 20, 2000
London-Gatwick - July 1, 1983
London-Heathrow - April 7, 1991
Madrid - December 16, 1999
Milan - December 20, 2000
Munich - June 1, 1986
Oslo - October 1, 1990
Paris-de Gaulle - July 2, 2001
Rome - December 16, 1999
Shannon - September 6, 1979
Stockholm - June 1, 1992
Tel Aviv - December 20, 2000
Vienna - October 30, 1994
Zurich - January 31, 1989

STL
Frankfurt - June 1, 1989
London-Gatwick - July 2, 2001
Paris-de Gaulle - July 2, 2001
 
Ionosphere
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Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:35 am

TWA Trans Atlantic Arrivals into JFK:

March 1, 1980
Athens TW881 747 XMonTue
Frankfurt TW741 707 Daily
Lisbon TW901 707 ExSatSun
London-Heathrow TW703 747 Daily
London-Heathrow TW701 747 Daily
Madrid TW903 747 Daily
Milan TW843 747 Daily
Paris-de Gaulle TW803 747 Daily
Rome TW841 747 Daily

July 1, 1983
Athens TW881 747 Daily
Frankfurt TW741 747 Daily
Frankfurt TW743 L-1011 Daily
Lisbon TW901 L-1011 Daily
London-Gatwick TW705 L-1011 Daily
London-Heathrow TW709 L-1011 Daily
London-Heathrow TW703 747 Daily
London-Heathrow TW701 747 Sun Only
Madrid TW905 747SP ExFriSun
Madrid TW903 747SP Daily
Milan TW843 747 Daily
Paris-de Gaulle TW803 747 Daily
Paris-de Gaulle TW801 747 Daily
Rome TW845 747 Daily
Rome TW841 747 Daily


January 15, 1989
Amsterdam TW815 767-200 Daily
Brussels TW769 L-1011 ExMon
Copenhagen TW817 L-1011 ExMonFri
Frankfurt TW741 747 Daily
Lisbon TW901 L-1011 Sun Only
Lisbon TW901 767-200 TueThuOnly
London-Heathrow TW703 747 Daily
London-Heathrow TW715 L-1011 Daily
Madrid TW903 747 Daily
Milan TW843 747 Daily
Paris-de Gaulle TW803 L-1011 Daily
Paris-de Gaulle TW801 747 Daily
Rome TW841 747 Daily
Stockholm TW827 L-1011 MonFri Only
Tel Aviv TW885 747 Sun Only
Zurich TW833 767-200 ExTueThu

October 1, 1996
Athens TW881 747 Daily
Barcelona TW917 767-200 Daily
Cairo TW891 767-300 WedFriSun Only
Frankfurt TW741 767-200 Daily
Lisbon TW901 767-200 Daily
Madrid TW903 767-300 Daily
Milan TW843 747 Daily
Paris TW925 747 Daily
Rome TW841 747 Daily
Rome TW853 747 ExMonWed
Tel Aviv TW885 747 Daily
Tel Aviv TW883 747 Sun Only
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2074
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:28 am

flyjoe wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation.


I flew JFK-CDG in May 2001 and it was a 767-300. The return flight back to Denver was by way of the CDG-STL non-stop, also on a 763.


JFK-CDG shifted around a bit in terms of equipment, particularly once the AA acquisition got underway, and in May 2001 it was well underway. There were not many TWA 763s and they needed a place to be flown, as they were expensive to operate (all were leased at higher rates due to TWA's lousy credit rating) and since the bulk of their international long haul missions were to CAI, RUH, and TLV, which apart from TLV, did not operate daily. I'm not sure if by May 2001 Aviators and AAdvantage were aligned in any way, but CDG was a significant (and still is) station for AA. Back then, there was, on AA equipment, JFK, BOS, MIA, DFW, ORD. AA acquired TWA as a way to knock out a competitor and to get its hands on the STL hub as a way to ease the congestion at ORD. Those were the last days of what was a strong summer for aviation globally, with 9/11 happening a few months later.
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:28 pm

TWA flew to Frankfurt until 13th of January 1997 ( TW 741 FRA-JFK on a 767-200ER N604TW) and to Athens until 18th April 1997 (TW881 on a 747-100 N93108)

there are 2 Youtube Videos for both last flights !

I miss TWA



TWA741: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWpdtJ_CSuQ

TWA 881: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94iWQJ3rzuI

Also interesting is TWA Last Day at Heathrow on July 1st 1992: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CT-cSpTjBU&t=121s

Very Sad
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
amc737
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:00 pm

Dug out some old timetables, in the 8 September 1993 edition TWA flew the following daily unless indicated:

From New York JFK

Amsterdam - Vienna TW814
Athens X13 TW880
Barcelona - Nice TW902 (Nice was TW908)
Brussels - Berlin TXL TW768
Frankfurt TW740
Lisbon TW900
Madrid TW904
Milan MXP TW842
Paris CDG TW804 & TW800 (TW800 continued to TLV at TW884)
Rome FCO TW840 X146 TW848 (on days 357 TW848 goes to Cairo)
Tel Aviv 357 TW 884

In addition Geneva, Munich, Zurich flown from Paris

St Louis

London LGW TW720
Paris CDG TW818

Boston

Paris CDG TW810

Washington

Paris CDG TW894

No aircraft types i'm afraid.

amc737

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