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TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:26 pm
by Cointrin330
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:35 pm
by OzarkD9S

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:54 pm
by MIflyer12
Cointrin330 wrote:
Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws.


Yes, the early 747s were inefficient, but the 767s were the avant garde: TATL twins.

As for expensive/overstaffed European stations, it's not a question of if they were overstaffed relative to U.S. ops, but if they were overstaffed relative to other TATL carriers of the day like AF/BA/LH.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:13 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
I believe that in 1994 TWA launched new JFK-GVA-VIE & JFK-GVA-MUC services, and that same year cut out these three cities completely.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:33 pm
by amc737
Just to add some more detail, the first route TWA sold was Chicago to Heathrow, this was announced in December 1989, the deal was expended in December 1990 to 6 other routes, New York, Baltimore, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Boston, however the US authorities only allowed American to buy New York, Los Angeles and Boston leaving TWA with St Louis, Philadelphia and Baltimore. American started Chicago to London on 1 June 1991 serving Gatwick so this was the first TWA transatlantic route to go. I believe just before AA took it over TWA only flew it once a week to keep the authority live.

American started Heathrow operations on 1 July 1991, the last TWA 747 departure was N301TW on 1 July 1991 and the first American arrival was the same day, a 767-300 from JFK. The next day 2 July 1991 American had a full operation with arrivals from Boston, Chicago, JFK, Newark and Miami.

This left TWA's exisitng routes London Gatwick to Baltimore and St Louis and Philadelphia which moved from Heathrow, there was also a daily extension to Frankfurt in the winter. Baltimore and Philadelphia where purchased by US Air in December 1991, I think US Air started operating these in May 1992 leaving TWA with a daily St Louis service. There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:43 pm
by rove312
I flew them to LIS in November 2000; I think the end of service had been announced for early 2001, and MXP was the same.

ETA: And I guess the Departed Flights link in post 2 gives some record of that.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:48 pm
by Cointrin330
amc737 wrote:
Just to add some more detail, the first route TWA sold was Chicago to Heathrow, this was announced in December 1989, the deal was expended in December 1990 to 6 other routes, New York, Baltimore, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Boston, however the US authorities only allowed American to buy New York, Los Angeles and Boston leaving TWA with St Louis, Philadelphia and Baltimore. American started Chicago to London on 1 June 1991 serving Gatwick so this was the first TWA transatlantic route to go. I believe just before AA took it over TWA only flew it once a week to keep the authority live.

American started Heathrow operations on 1 July 1991, the last TWA 747 departure was N301TW on 1 July 1991 and the first American arrival was the same day, a 767-300 from JFK. The next day 2 July 1991 American had a full operation with arrivals from Boston, Chicago, JFK, Newark and Miami.

This left TWA's exisitng routes London Gatwick to Baltimore and St Louis and Philadelphia which moved from Heathrow, there was also a daily extension to Frankfurt in the winter. Baltimore and Philadelphia where purchased by US Air in December 1991, I think US Air started operating these in May 1992 leaving TWA with a daily St Louis service. There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737


This is awesome. Thank you. The kind of detail I was looking for. Departed Flights is great but does not always help fill the gaps. Indeed TW 701 was the last LHR departure on 7/1/91. AA was flying 3 x daily from JFK starting 7/2 with 1 763 and 2 x 747-SP which ironically were the same 2 747 SPs that AA bought from TWA in the mid-1980s to operate DFW-NRT, which was out of range for the DC10 and 763, the two biggest planes in the AA fleet at the time. By 1991, AA had the MD11 and was able to swap them into DFW-NRT and move the SP's over to JFK to operate LHR but the SP's didn't last long and were quickly withdrawn. They did operate on AA's JFK-BRU route occasionally but the 763, MD11, then 777 and AB6 became the mainstay of the AA JFK-LHR operation. The AB6's were all retired by 2009 and the JFK-LHR route was all 777 for AA by then (772) until the 77W arrived on property in 2013.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:05 pm
by MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.



MXP and LIS were not cut until January 2001 IIRC. FCO, MAD, BCN I believe were late 1999 or early 2000.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:11 pm
by DeltaRules
TW and its three flight numbers on the same plane. What was the timeline for the 727 network in Europe and when did it go?

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:00 pm
by Coexstud
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

https://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:03 pm
by jfklganyc
Great synopsis OP

What you are missing is the fact that TWA had a full-fledged hub at JFK with many domestic connections to feed the Europe stuff through 800. Many connectors on that flight.

Right after that crash, they gutted JFK domestically. They didn’t stand a chance after that.

Delta had a well rounded European operation, and good domestic feed.

American didnt have a well rounded operation at all...But whatever they did serve from JFK had high frequency: LA MIA LHR SJU and they had a large Eagle operation to supplement with feed.

That left late 90s TWA with a single crumbling terminal, old planes, and a European operation that had some feed from Florida and the West Coast. Not a good place to be

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:04 pm
by Coexstud
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

AA didn’t have any 747 on property in 91 they were either sold or wet leased to other carriers or governments by then

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:14 pm
by skipness1E
amc737 wrote:
American started Heathrow operations on 1 July 1991, the last TWA 747 departure was N301TW on 1 July 1991 and the first American arrival was the same day, a 767-300 from JFK. The next day 2 July 1991 American had a full operation with arrivals from Boston, Chicago, JFK, Newark and Miami. amc737


So was the first American arrival at LHR on 1st July the daylight service evening arrival? Did the TWA groundstaff move to American or did they start from scratch?
What about Pan Am to United in April 91?

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:21 pm
by mga707
Coexstud wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

AA didn’t have any 747 on property in 91 they were either sold or wet leased to other carriers or governments by then


Untrue. They still had a couple of 747SPs, which ironically they had purchased from TWA in the late '80s as a 'stopgap' until their delayed MD-11s were delivered. The first AA MD-11 entered service in 1991, so they still had the SPs in operation for at least some of that year.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:33 pm
by amc737
The first American Airlines arrival on 1 July was AA106 which was the day flight and operated by a 767-300. In terms of the 747SPs they definitely operated to Heathrow in 1992, I remember a trip in February that year seeing both the SP's and an AA DC-10-10, I believe they had 3 which operated a daily Boston Heathrow service, again this started 2 July 1992. The first AA MD-11 transatlantic service was on March 30 1992 arriving the next day into Manchester.

Pan Ams last day at Heathrow was 3 April 1991, the last flight was an A310 departure, I believe this was on the evening JFK, I think N805PA may have operated this. The next day 4 April 1991 United started operations, the first arrival was a 747 from Washington. I remember United starting London was a big deal, with TV ads etc. For about a month they flew Heathrow Miami as Pan Am was not ready to start Miami Gatwick until May.

amc737

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:56 pm
by Cointrin330
Coexstud wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).

Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.

AA didn’t have any 747 on property in 91 they were either sold or wet leased to other carriers or governments by then


AA absolutely did have 2 747SP's (nothing more) on property in 1991. They were taken off the DFW-NRT run (2 planes were needed for this service to be daily) and reassigned to JFK-LHR for a short time. The MD11s were arriving by then. Those two 747SP's by the way were ex-TWA aircraft, which were purchased in the 1970's when TWA wanted to fly to Asia (I think NRT specifically) but didn't get the go ahead. Instead, TWA flew them from JFK to RUH/KWI/BOM and maybe TLV but by 1985 they were withdrawn.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:04 pm
by Cointrin330
jfklganyc wrote:
Great synopsis OP

What you are missing is the fact that TWA had a full-fledged hub at JFK with many domestic connections to feed the Europe stuff through 800. Many connectors on that flight.

Right after that crash, they gutted JFK domestically. They didn’t stand a chance after that.

Delta had a well rounded European operation, and good domestic feed.

American didnt have a well rounded operation at all...But whatever they did serve from JFK had high frequency: LA MIA LHR SJU and they had a large Eagle operation to supplement with feed.

That left late 90s TWA with a single crumbling terminal, old planes, and a European operation that had some feed from Florida and the West Coast. Not a good place to be


Indeed, TWA was gutting JFK fast after the LHR routes were sold. Delta did a few different things at JFK at the beginning of the TATL gateway. They initially operated the bulk of the PA network they acquired, but by the mid-1990s they shifted to code-shares on may flights, and operated a core (substantial) set of flights to Europe on their own metal. I forget all the airlines in the mix, but SR, TP, EI, VS, SN were all at one time or another code-sharing so Delta did not serve ZRH, GVA, LIS, SNN, DUB, LHR (it didn't have access anyway), or BRU on its own aircraft. Then as the focus shifted again in the 2000s Delta, with an even bigger domestic feed, focused the operation on its own metal even more. AA was a lot bigger at JFK as TW's decline accelerated but not to the size that many here think it was. AA had a big Caribbean network out of JFK, Eagle service to many cities up and down the East Coast, and to Europe, there was ORY, BRU, FRA, and ZRH from the original build up from JFK. LYS was tried and cut very quickly. The same day AA launched JFK-LHR it also launched JFK-MAN but the route did not last. AA also had a bit more West Coast transcons beyond LAX/SFO and flew regularly to SEA once a day on a 762, SAN was flown on a 762, and JFK was more of a connecting hub for AA then. But still, we're talking 100-120 flights at most. I don't think it ever got much bigger than that.

Back to the OP. TWA cut so much domestic feed at JFK that it became harder to fill the 747's, which were configured for 336 passengers. By the time TW800 happened, the 747 retirement accelerated.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:05 pm
by Cointrin330
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Am looking to understand when and how TWA began to dismantle its TATL route network, after selling its LHR routes to American Airlines for $445 million in 1991.

As I recall, the route cuts, specifically at JFK looked like this:

July 1991 (1st) - TWA operates the last LHR-JFK flight (TW 701, a 747 to JFK) and the same day, AA begins JFK-LHR with the 747-SP.

From then on, it seems like TWA maintained its network for the most part, though it entered bankruptcy in 1992 and again in 1995 (and finally in 2001 when AA acquired it).

1994: AMS, BRU cut
1997: FRA, ATH, MAD cut
1998: FCO cut
1999: LIS, MXP, BCN cut
2001: CDG, now down to a single 767-200ER is absorbed into the AA JFK TATL operation. TLV, RUH, CAI end as the AA integration begins.

I'm curious about the following stations and routes, on and off, that had TWA service and the non JFK routes and when those ended, specifically:

CPH, FBU (OSL), BOS-CDG, JFK-GVA, and when JFK-ZRH, which operated on and off as a nonstop and was mostly (with GVA) served via CDG. When did CDG at JFK go down to 1 daily, instead of 2.

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.

Anyway, the route cuts and draw down schedule is what I am most interested in. The long haul fleet at the end was 763/762 and 757 (used for LIS/BCN).


Also, I read somewhere that the TWA 747s struggled with the TLV-JFK flight and in winter had to make frequent fuel stops in SNN. I had not heard this previously, but sounds about right if the -131s were being flown.

Anyone have meaningful color here, please share on any or all.



MXP and LIS were not cut until January 2001 IIRC. FCO, MAD, BCN I believe were late 1999 or early 2000.


Thanks. Yes, MXP and LIS were the last European routes, plus CDG which was the very last one. MXP outlasted FCO because it was more of a business route.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:57 pm
by jfklganyc
I believe (emphasis on believe) FCO was the last 747 route out of JFK.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:46 pm
by Delta777Jet
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:39 pm
by Cointrin330
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

I did fly the last transatlantic revenue Flight on 12/1/2001 TW721 LGW-STL) , the Route was flown as AA272/AA2721 as American Airlines until early 2003 ! You could see TWA planes in Gatwick until then because they were exclusively flown by former TWA Aircrafts ( and the 763 were never painted in AA colors)!


Correct, the TWA 763s were never repainted and were all returned to their lessors. TWA's credit rating was poor, and the rates on those 763s were high as a consequence. AA ordered 9 new 767-300ERs to replace them. They would be the only AA 767-300ERs in the fleet that had nose to tail Boeing signature interiors (well, sort of, the 777 style one, with curved walls and bigger overhead bins) throughout. The rest of the 763s were only half modified by AA to feature that cabin architecture from the nose to the end of Business Class. The back of the bus sported the 1980s cabin architecture and smaller bins until the end.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:06 am
by LatinPlane
By the way, since we're on the subject, I found this TWA JFK hub video on youtube filmed in 1993. Wonderful stuff, it can't get any better! Brings back memories of what exactly it was like to fly TWA at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavyD7yXJ4

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:18 am
by Ionosphere
My grandparents flew TW840 JFK-FCO & TW843 MXP-JFK in April 1998.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:36 am
by NorthTexAAs
Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

AA ordered 9 new 767-300ERs to replace them.


American originally placed an order for 15 767-300s to replace the A300s that were being removed from transatlantic service. That order was subsequently reduced to nine, and unrelated at the time to the TWA transaction

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:41 am
by Ionosphere
Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Great synopsis OP

What you are missing is the fact that TWA had a full-fledged hub at JFK with many domestic connections to feed the Europe stuff through 800. Many connectors on that flight.

Right after that crash, they gutted JFK domestically. They didn’t stand a chance after that.

Delta had a well rounded European operation, and good domestic feed.

American didnt have a well rounded operation at all...But whatever they did serve from JFK had high frequency: LA MIA LHR SJU and they had a large Eagle operation to supplement with feed.

That left late 90s TWA with a single crumbling terminal, old planes, and a European operation that had some feed from Florida and the West Coast. Not a good place to be


Indeed, TWA was gutting JFK fast after the LHR routes were sold. Delta did a few different things at JFK at the beginning of the TATL gateway. They initially operated the bulk of the PA network they acquired, but by the mid-1990s they shifted to code-shares on may flights, and operated a core (substantial) set of flights to Europe on their own metal. I forget all the airlines in the mix, but SR, TP, EI, VS, SN were all at one time or another code-sharing so Delta did not serve ZRH, GVA, LIS, SNN, DUB, LHR (it didn't have access anyway), or BRU on its own aircraft. Then as the focus shifted again in the 2000s Delta, with an even bigger domestic feed, focused the operation on its own metal even more. AA was a lot bigger at JFK as TW's decline accelerated but not to the size that many here think it was. AA had a big Caribbean network out of JFK, Eagle service to many cities up and down the East Coast, and to Europe, there was ORY, BRU, FRA, and ZRH from the original build up from JFK. LYS was tried and cut very quickly. The same day AA launched JFK-LHR it also launched JFK-MAN but the route did not last. AA also had a bit more West Coast transcons beyond LAX/SFO and flew regularly to SEA once a day on a 762, SAN was flown on a 762, and JFK was more of a connecting hub for AA then. But still, we're talking 100-120 flights at most. I don't think it ever got much bigger than that.

Back to the OP. TWA cut so much domestic feed at JFK that it became harder to fill the 747's, which were configured for 336 passengers. By the time TW800 happened, the 747 retirement accelerated.


N93119 on July 17, 1996 was configured with 29 Trans World One Seats and 404 Comfort Class seats

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:45 am
by Cointrin330
NorthTexAAs wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
The last TWA Route to Europe was STL-LGW !

AA ordered 9 new 767-300ERs to replace them.


American originally placed an order for 15 767-300s to replace the A300s that were being removed from transatlantic service. That order was subsequently reduced to nine, and unrelated at the time to the TWA transaction


I don't think that is right. The AA order for 9 additional 767-300ER's were direct replacements for the TWA ones, which were on high leases. American may have wanted to order more and up to 15, but the aftermath of 9/11 on the industry may have curtailed that. The AB6's were used on a handful of TATL routes, mainly from JFK and BOS (2 LHR frequencies and I think one LHR and perhaps from BOS to CDG, I am not sure).

The A300-600s were all retired by 2009. They were great cargo haulers, particularly for Caribbean and some shorter Latin America flights but AA's Caribbean network from JFK was being cut substantially gutted by then (with Miami the focal point of Caribbean ops) and AA was operating 763s on some flights out of JFK and MIami to the Caribbean that were former AB6 routes. Out of JFK, BGI and STI were serviced on the 767-300ER at times post-2009 and AB6 retirement. American operated a total of 35 Airbus A300-600s. The original order was for 25 with 10 options. One was lost in the horrific AA 587 crash in November 2001.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:06 am
by cynlb
Here's an AA commercial from 1991 advertising the new Heathrow service-
https://youtu.be/GTdG3ALR7Ec

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:41 am
by jfklganyc
LatinPlane wrote:
By the way, since we're on the subject, I found this TWA JFK hub video on youtube filmed in 1993. Wonderful stuff, it can't get any better! Brings back memories of what exactly it was like to fly TWA at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavyD7yXJ4



what a great video!!

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:43 am
by Cointrin330
LatinPlane wrote:
By the way, since we're on the subject, I found this TWA JFK hub video on youtube filmed in 1993. Wonderful stuff, it can't get any better! Brings back memories of what exactly it was like to fly TWA at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavyD7yXJ4


Amazing video. I love the part where the ground crew enter the Athens flight for final checks (TW880/888). This video does give you a good feel for what it was like to fly TWA and through the TWA Flight Center. Other flights featured include TW 840 (FCO), TW 842 (MXP), TW 904 (MAD). Thanks for posting it.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:50 am
by sjones1975
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737


In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:58 am
by United1
Cointrin330 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
By the way, since we're on the subject, I found this TWA JFK hub video on youtube filmed in 1993. Wonderful stuff, it can't get any better! Brings back memories of what exactly it was like to fly TWA at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavyD7yXJ4


Amazing video. I love the part where the ground crew enter the Athens flight for final checks (TW880/888). This video does give you a good feel for what it was like to fly TWA and through the TWA Flight Center. Other flights featured include TW 840 (FCO), TW 842 (MXP), TW 904 (MAD). Thanks for posting it.


Great video...why did the ATH flight have two flight numbers? 880 and 888?

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:44 pm
by jfklganyc
United1 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
By the way, since we're on the subject, I found this TWA JFK hub video on youtube filmed in 1993. Wonderful stuff, it can't get any better! Brings back memories of what exactly it was like to fly TWA at the time.n

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavyD7yXJ4


Amazing video. I love the part where the ground crew enter the Athens flight for final checks (TW880/888). This video does give you a good feel for what it was like to fly TWA and through the TWA Flight Center. Other flights featured include TW 840 (FCO), TW 842 (MXP), TW 904 (MAD). Thanks for posting it.


Great video...why did the ATH flight have two flight numbers? 880 and 888?


I thought it was a thru flight? Or was that TLV on the 747?

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:06 pm
by United1
jfklganyc wrote:
United1 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Amazing video. I love the part where the ground crew enter the Athens flight for final checks (TW880/888). This video does give you a good feel for what it was like to fly TWA and through the TWA Flight Center. Other flights featured include TW 840 (FCO), TW 842 (MXP), TW 904 (MAD). Thanks for posting it.


Great video...why did the ATH flight have two flight numbers? 880 and 888?


I thought it was a thru flight? Or was that TLV on the 747?


The gate agent was announcing it as flight 880/888 nonstop to ATH. I wonder if ATH passengers were ticketed on flight 880 and the connecting TLV passengers were ticketed on 888. It would be weird to do it that way now but maybe the TWs res system worked that way.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:30 pm
by departedflights
United1 wrote:
The gate agent was announcing it as flight 880/888 nonstop to ATH. I wonder if ATH passengers were ticketed on flight 880 and the connecting TLV passengers were ticketed on 888. It would be weird to do it that way now but maybe the TWs res system worked that way.


It was one of those situations where TWA sold the flight as "direct" from another U.S. city to an international destination with a scheduled change of aircraft.

In this case, flight 880 departed JFK at 6:15pm and arrived in Athens at 10:45am.

However, TWA also sold flight 888 which was one-stop service from Boston to Athens. Departing Boston at 3:17pm on a narrow-body aircraft switching to the 747 at JFK.

It was sold as a thru-flight despite the change of aircraft.

Interestingly, the narrow-body flight from Boston to JFK at 3:17pm was actually flight 927 UNLESS you were continuing onto Athens, in which case, the same flight was 888.

In a way, the actual itinerary from BOS to ATH could have been flight 927 connecting to 880, however TWA marketed it as 888 direct from BOS to ATH.

It was all about being able to sell it as a direct flight. Pan Am was another carrier that did this a lot.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:42 pm
by United1
departedflights wrote:
United1 wrote:
The gate agent was announcing it as flight 880/888 nonstop to ATH. I wonder if ATH passengers were ticketed on flight 880 and the connecting TLV passengers were ticketed on 888. It would be weird to do it that way now but maybe the TWs res system worked that way.


It was one of those situations where TWA sold the flight as "direct" from another U.S. city to an international destination with a scheduled change of aircraft.

In this case, flight 880 departed JFK at 6:15pm and arrived in Athens at 10:45am.

However, TWA also sold flight 888 which was one-stop service from Boston to Athens. Departing Boston at 3:17pm on a narrow-body aircraft switching to the 747 at JFK.

It was sold as a thru-flight despite the change of aircraft.

Interestingly, the narrow-body flight from Boston to JFK at 3:17pm was actually flight 927 UNLESS you were continuing onto Athens, in which case, the same flight was 888.

In a way, the actual itinerary from BOS to ATH could have been flight 927 connecting to 880, however TWA marketed it as 888 direct from BOS to ATH.

It was all about being able to sell it as a direct flight. Pan Am was another carrier that did this a lot.


Ahhhhh that makes sense...thanks.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:34 pm
by STT757
TWA launched EWR-CDG in 1992, I believe it lasted one Summer and was operated by the 767. This was a weird Summer as DL also offered a EWR-FRA nonstop, again it only last that one Summer.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:23 pm
by Cointrin330
United1 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
United1 wrote:

Great video...why did the ATH flight have two flight numbers? 880 and 888?


I thought it was a thru flight? Or was that TLV on the 747?


The gate agent was announcing it as flight 880/888 nonstop to ATH. I wonder if ATH passengers were ticketed on flight 880 and the connecting TLV passengers were ticketed on 888. It would be weird to do it that way now but maybe the TWs res system worked that way.


Wait, wasn't TWA's JFK-TLV service TW 884? That was the nonstop anyway. For a time, TWA 840 operated as LAX-JFK-FCO-ATH-CAI, but that's not related.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:54 pm
by N649DL
STT757 wrote:
TWA launched EWR-CDG in 1992, I believe it lasted one Summer and was operated by the 767. This was a weird Summer as DL also offered a EWR-FRA nonstop, again it only last that one Summer.


That was also around the time when AA operated EWR-LHR (which they then dropped) and picked back up in 1998-1999 with the 767 and in 2001 with the A306.

Also, anyone notice how in 1986 (in departedflights) TW operated JFK-EWR? What was that about?

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:56 pm
by Cointrin330
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:31 pm
by STT757
N649DL wrote:
STT757 wrote:
TWA launched EWR-CDG in 1992, I believe it lasted one Summer and was operated by the 767. This was a weird Summer as DL also offered a EWR-FRA nonstop, again it only last that one Summer.


That was also around the time when AA operated EWR-LHR (which they then dropped) and picked back up in 1998-1999 with the 767 and in 2001 with the A306.

Also, anyone notice how in 1986 (in departedflights) TW operated JFK-EWR? What was that about?


It coincided with the opening of the second concourse of the Terminal B International arrivals facility.

The first pier of the Terminal B International facility , B-3, opened in 1989. Previously Eastern was using B3 and B2 concourses, when Eastern employees went on strike in March 1989 the carrier consolidated to B-2. Previously the International arrivals facility was at a two gate stub concourse at Terminal C where the newer C3 concourse is currently located. After Eastern shut down, January 1991, the Port Authority began work on adding B-2 to the International arrivals facility which was ready for the Summer 1992 season which saw a bunch of new routes from Continental (Munich, Madrid etc..) AA LHR, DL FRA, TWA CDG and other International carriers. A new hall that linked B-2 and B-3 at Terminal B opened in 1996.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:57 pm
by Cointrin330
What did TWA operate on the short-lived EWR-CDG route?

I remember them also briefly flying a daylight service from JFK to CDG for a few months at one point. I think that was on the L1011.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:00 pm
by PANAMsterdam
Great topic! It's still weird to see the IATA flight code TW now being used with the asian airline T'way
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airl ... twb/routes

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:06 pm
by TWA902fly
Cointrin330 wrote:
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.


As you can tell from my namesake - TWA902, that flight was JFK-BCN, usually a 767-200ER. In July 1997, I flew the route on a 747-100, however. The flight was also continuing onto CDG, routing was JFK-BCN-CDG. I am not sure if that was a one-time consolidation or if the flight operated as such frequently. The return flight BCN-JFK was on a 767-200ER and I believe was TWA #917.

'902

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:08 pm
by codc10
departedflights wrote:
United1 wrote:
The gate agent was announcing it as flight 880/888 nonstop to ATH. I wonder if ATH passengers were ticketed on flight 880 and the connecting TLV passengers were ticketed on 888. It would be weird to do it that way now but maybe the TWs res system worked that way.


It was one of those situations where TWA sold the flight as "direct" from another U.S. city to an international destination with a scheduled change of aircraft.

In this case, flight 880 departed JFK at 6:15pm and arrived in Athens at 10:45am.

However, TWA also sold flight 888 which was one-stop service from Boston to Athens. Departing Boston at 3:17pm on a narrow-body aircraft switching to the 747 at JFK.

It was sold as a thru-flight despite the change of aircraft.

Interestingly, the narrow-body flight from Boston to JFK at 3:17pm was actually flight 927 UNLESS you were continuing onto Athens, in which case, the same flight was 888.

In a way, the actual itinerary from BOS to ATH could have been flight 927 connecting to 880, however TWA marketed it as 888 direct from BOS to ATH.

It was all about being able to sell it as a direct flight. Pan Am was another carrier that did this a lot.


CO did this in the early 90s as well, publishing hundreds of international city pairs as "direct" service (usually under a 4XXX flight number) that was actually a connecting itinerary on two separate flight numbers. The logic was that direct flights (even with aircraft change) display higher on GDS screens than pure connecting itineraries, regardless of trip duration, and thus would appear to be more desirable.

IMO, the CO way was even more confusing and perhaps misleading, as compared to the way TW did it, the published flight number was meaningless on the day of departure, and did not in any way resemble a through service, even with change of gauge.

Looking on departedflights.com, an example can be found in CO's 10/30/94 timetable... at the time, the only CO flight from MAD was a daily MAD-EWR DC-10 service, flight 63 with continuing service to LAX. CO63 EWR-MAD departed at 11:55am, with a stop at EWR, continuing to LAX as the same CO63. However, the timetable also shows a series of through flights, including:

ATL/4419
BOS/4451
ORD/4457
CLE/4063
DTW/4173
GSO/4031
IAH/4263
MCO/4459
MIA/4365
MSY/4286
PHL/4441
SFO/4361
TPA/4465
DCA/4065
IAD/4397

All flights show an 11:55am departure (same as CO63), DC-10 equipment, and arrival times at the final destination corresponding with other scheduled CO/COEX flight numbers with different equipment. I'm not sure for how long the practice continued but I can imagine it was controversial.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:25 pm
by Cointrin330
TWA902fly wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
These are no doubt in departed flights, but the baseline flight numbers I remember for the full TATL ops from JFK were:

FCO (TW 840 + 848 as it sometimes went 2 x daily in certain times of the year)
LHR (TW 700 and 708). There was a third flight, I think, added in the later 1980s. Think it was operated with Gulf Air on an L1011. Not sure if LGW or LHR.
CDG (TW 800 and 806 which then became TW 804). After the TWA 800 crash, I don't remember the new flight number but I seem to recall it was TW 924?
MAD (TW 904)
LIS (TW 900)
BCN (TW 902)
FRS (TW 740)
AMS (TW 814)
BRU (TW 768)
MXP (TW 842)
ATH (TW 880)
TLV (TW 884)

BOS to CDG was TW 811 I think.


As you can tell from my namesake - TWA902, that flight was JFK-BCN, usually a 767-200ER. In July 1997, I flew the route on a 747-100, however. The flight was also continuing onto CDG, routing was JFK-BCN-CDG. I am not sure if that was a one-time consolidation or if the flight operated as such frequently. The return flight BCN-JFK was on a 767-200ER and I believe was TWA #917.

'902

Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting that TWA routed so much capacity through CDG in the second half of the 1990s. TW 800 was operating its normal JFK-CDG routing and was due to continue on to FCO. CDG operated as a scissor hub of sorts for TWA over the years, with GVA, ZRH, and TLV served from there as extensions to/from US bound flights. Interesting that your flight had a BCN-CDG tag to it. To my knowledge, TWA did not operate regular services between France and Spain in the 1980s and 1990s.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:27 pm
by Cointrin330
jfklganyc wrote:
I believe (emphasis on believe) FCO was the last 747 route out of JFK.


I think that is right.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:19 pm
by deltacto
codc10 wrote:
CO did this in the early 90s as well, publishing hundreds of international city pairs as "direct" service (usually under a 4XXX flight number) that was actually a connecting itinerary on two separate flight numbers. The logic was that direct flights (even with aircraft change) display higher on GDS screens than pure connecting itineraries, regardless of trip duration, and thus would appear to be more desirable.

IMO, the CO way was even more confusing and perhaps misleading, as compared to the way TW did it, the published flight number was meaningless on the day of departure, and did not in any way resemble a through service, even with change of gauge.


Delta did this too - 8000 series flights as I recall. DL called them "Composite Flights" I was in Reservations then and thought it was an extreme disservice to our customers. Even though we would quote them "DL flight 8036 from Los Angeles to London with a change of equipment in Atlanta", but they wouldn't pay attention. And then they would show up at LAX looking for flight 8036 ... and it didn't exist.

Our supervisors told us that "Composite Flights are preferred" ... so we had to sell them.

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:48 pm
by amc737
I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago but it applies to this thread as well regarding TWAs operation in the later 1990's

After the sale of the Heathrow authority to American Airlines and Baltimore and Philadelphia routes from Gatwick to US Air, TWA left with 1 daily flight to Gatwick from St Louis. Typically this was flown by a 767-200 in Winter and a 747-100 in the Summer season. In 1997 a 2nd daily was launched from 15 May 1997, both flights where flown by 767. This actually represented a reduction of seats overall from 433 on the 747 to 384 on 2 767-200s although more first seats overall.

By summer 1997 TWA's long-haul network was as follows:

JFK-LIS-BCN
JFK-MXP
JFK-MAD
JFK-FCO
JFK-CDG
JFK-TLV
JFK-CAI-RUH
STL-LGW
STL-CDG

By this point the only 747's timetabled where to Tel Aviv and Honolulu, Athens featured a 747 but ended 18 April 1997. I suspect the double daily 767 to Gatwick was a consequence of the quick retirement of 747's, from what I remember the LGW-STL carried a lot of connection passengers especially to Florida, in those days people did book their holiday a year in advance so I suspect a lot of seats had already been sold for summer 1997 which would have been a 747 so with their retirement the capacity needed to be replaced. The following year the route was daily as it was until it ended.

amc737

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:02 pm
by The777Man
TW also flew to CPH, ARN and FBU (OSL) for a few years starting around 1988 or so and lasting until Oct92 I think.

As for BCN, in 1993, the BCN flight continued to NCE that was flown for that one summer season. TW 908 operated JFK-BCN-NCE and return. Equipment was a 762.

TW also flew CDG-LAX nonstop a few days a week for the summer of 1994 with the then newly leased 763s. At least one was ex-Condor which was the one i flew on; N691LF

The777Man

Re: TWA Transatlantic Drawdown Time Line

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:59 pm
by jetwet1
Cointrin330 wrote:

Seems like one of the biggest issues with TWA post-1991 was that its product wasn't competitive, the planes were old, inefficient, and TWA's European stations were over-staffed and expensive to operate and maintain given EU labor laws. The 747's were by then simply too big, and the TW 800 disaster accelerated the phase out. DL, AA, and UA were on the rise, particularly at JFK, where DL took over PA's TATL footprint.



Not at all, yes the planes were older and not as efficient, but the real killer was Karabu.If you look at your dates, yes there were a couple of routes cut, but come June 1995 the Karabu Corp came into being and the real pain started for TW at JFK.

sjones1975 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
There where reports of TWA being interested in a Stansted to JFK service as a way of getting back onto London New York route but this never started.

amc737


In fact, TWA CEO Jeffrey Erickson was in London on business on the day of the TWA 800 tragedy in July 1996. He was likely there exploring the possibility of a TWA return to the JFK-LON market.


Again, I doubt it, Karabu would have made it a financial suicide mission.