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spinotter
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:43 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Which is why this decision was driven by finances and not by genuine care for the environment. If they really wanted to save planet earth then they would have cut all short flights from VIE, not only those which generally struggled to make a profit.

Planet Earth won't be saved by cutting short flights.


So what is your point? How will planet Earth's biosphere be saved? You are advocating the cutting of all flights and everything else that brings with it? Or doing nothing and letting it happen? Cutting short haul flights is at least one minuscule step in the right direction!
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:29 pm

spinotter wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Which is why this decision was driven by finances and not by genuine care for the environment. If they really wanted to save planet earth then they would have cut all short flights from VIE, not only those which generally struggled to make a profit.

Planet Earth won't be saved by cutting short flights.


So what is your point? How will planet Earth's biosphere be saved? You are advocating the cutting of all flights and everything else that brings with it? Or doing nothing and letting it happen? Cutting short haul flights is at least one minuscule step in the right direction!


It's only a step in the right direction if the alternative people will be using is 100% green. However shifting transfer passengers from VIE to MUC or FRA isn't really achieving much.

What has to happen is for aviation to keep on investing into new technologies that reduce overall pollution. Anyway, that's already happening so any attacks on aviation are extremely pointless.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm

Blerg wrote:
What has to happen is for aviation to keep on investing into new technologies that reduce overall pollution. Anyway, that's already happening so any attacks on aviation are extremely pointless.


Drifting OT: I beg to differ. Yes, it will mostly be technology to drive an improved environmental footprint. Though not the only one. Aviation cannot be singled out as "already doing much". One seriously has to ask what the value of many short-haul flights is. Not all are needed in today´s form, and might easily be replaceable, especially if considering total travel time. And I would like to ask why there are will B737-200/300/400/500, MD80s and even DC-9s are flying when we´re already at the 737Max / 320neo generation, which means at least two, if not three generations further. Considering overall safety and environment (al costs such as noise) it could be a fair proposition to put an age limit on planes, too, to ensure that equipment is indeed "today´s technology".
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:16 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What has to happen is for aviation to keep on investing into new technologies that reduce overall pollution. Anyway, that's already happening so any attacks on aviation are extremely pointless.


Drifting OT: I beg to differ. Yes, it will mostly be technology to drive an improved environmental footprint. Though not the only one. Aviation cannot be singled out as "already doing much". One seriously has to ask what the value of many short-haul flights is. Not all are needed in today´s form, and might easily be replaceable, especially if considering total travel time. And I would like to ask why there are will B737-200/300/400/500, MD80s and even DC-9s are flying when we´re already at the 737Max / 320neo generation, which means at least two, if not three generations further. Considering overall safety and environment (al costs such as noise) it could be a fair proposition to put an age limit on planes, too, to ensure that equipment is indeed "today´s technology".


Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better, MAX is the perfect example of that. Furthermore, who decides what's convenient for whom? If there are short flights even today it means they are useful for the community. Random people should not put others at a disadvantage just because.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:01 pm

Blerg wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What has to happen is for aviation to keep on investing into new technologies that reduce overall pollution. Anyway, that's already happening so any attacks on aviation are extremely pointless.


Drifting OT: I beg to differ. Yes, it will mostly be technology to drive an improved environmental footprint. Though not the only one. Aviation cannot be singled out as "already doing much". One seriously has to ask what the value of many short-haul flights is. Not all are needed in today´s form, and might easily be replaceable, especially if considering total travel time. And I would like to ask why there are will B737-200/300/400/500, MD80s and even DC-9s are flying when we´re already at the 737Max / 320neo generation, which means at least two, if not three generations further. Considering overall safety and environment (al costs such as noise) it could be a fair proposition to put an age limit on planes, too, to ensure that equipment is indeed "today´s technology".


Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better, MAX is the perfect example of that. Furthermore, who decides what's convenient for whom? If there are short flights even today it means they are useful for the community. Random people should not put others at a disadvantage just because.


Bold statements. Governments around the World are doing nothing else than deciding for populations all the time regardless of the section of life.

Aviation is actually an easy one as "improvement metrics" such as noise, fuel consumption etc. are well known and it is easy to see where improvements are made and where not. And, BTW, this is done in many other industries anyway, be it trucking (EURO norms), cars, power plants, ... you name it. Even your heating system at home has to adhere to current redulations, which are tightend all along. Thus there is no specific reason why aviation shoud be singled out not to accept an age-limited or "generation-limit" or similar.

Re short haul flights: I´m not again these flights per se - I´ve been frequently using BRE-AMS and BRE-FRA in the past decades - though except for two or three ocasions these were all with onward connections and I didn´t touch the city at all. The other ones could have been either done with driving or train, if looking at it in retrospective.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
bennett123
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:16 pm

Firstly, the B737 Classic and MD80 is rapidly disappearing.

Secondly, aircraft types have been limited by countries or groups of countries based on noise levels.
 
GLANKG
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:34 pm

Airport could charge older generations a wee bit more, like an annually landing fee increase mechanism after an aircraft type has been out for 30 years, but it requires EU level corporation, could be done but very unlikely.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:23 pm

spinotter wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Planet Earth won't be saved by cutting short flights.

So what is your point? How will planet Earth's biosphere be saved? You are advocating the cutting of all flights and everything else that brings with it? Or doing nothing and letting it happen? Cutting short haul flights is at least one minuscule step in the right direction!

I am more in favour of cutting down the number of cars and the insane number of short trips made with them. In my country, the Netherlands, we are looking at around 10,000,000 co2 emitting vehicles. Every day I see parents driving their children to school 400 metres away. And these parents are not driving on to the office next, but instead returning home. First let's do something about the many million short car rides each day. And not make a big problem about the much smaller number of short flights.
 
Blerg
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Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:02 am

Good morning,

At an internal event a few days ago, Austrian Airlines' CEO said that when you look at B767 and B777 those planes simply have no future. All of their widebody planes are quite old, average age is over 20 years and a new investment is needed in order to make the airline more competitive.

With corona still present and new restrictions being imposed every day, there are growing speculation if Austrian Airlines might withdraw from the long-haul sector. Maybe it would make more sense for them to focus on offering connections via MUC, FRA and ZRH.

https://www.austrianwings.info/2020/09/ ... i-der-aua/

To make things worse, Belgium, Germany and Switzerland have all recently issued travel warning (and restrictions) for their citizens who wish to travel to Austria. This is impacting OS in a major way as these were major markets for them.

https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... warnungen/
 
kimimm19
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:07 am

It would be a crime if OS didn't receive the 787 soon.

In comparison, LH and LX don't need them.
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:10 am

kimimm19 wrote:
It would be a crime if OS didn't receive the 787 soon.

In comparison, LH and LX don't need them.


Why did LH order them? What was their rationale back then?
 
GLANKG
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:23 am

It was LH CEO, not OS CEO said 767/777 have no future, it sparked speculation of OS to receive 787 soon on a few outlets.

OS isn’t gonna withdraw from long haul, LH has legally guaranteed VIE at least 9 long haul planes for a decade.
 
Lootess
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:36 am

Of course the 777 has no future, it's a 1995 plane. It's already reached retirement age.
 
2175301
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:49 am

Lootess wrote:
Of course the 777 has no future, it's a 1995 plane. It's already reached retirement age.


A lot of 777's are going to make great freighters. I expect 4 per year once the conversion line gets up and running....


Have a great day,
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:02 am

GLANKG wrote:
It was LH CEO, not OS CEO said 767/777 have no future, it sparked speculation of OS to receive 787 soon on a few outlets.

OS isn’t gonna withdraw from long haul, LH has legally guaranteed VIE at least 9 long haul planes for a decade.


Guarantees were given when they still thought traffic would recover by winter. Now we know it won't and that this winter will be a very difficult one. Don't forget that LH agreed not to fire anymore employees and then yesterday they announced that they are looking at firing 3.500 additional workers.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:17 am

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
It was LH CEO, not OS CEO said 767/777 have no future, it sparked speculation of OS to receive 787 soon on a few outlets.

OS isn’t gonna withdraw from long haul, LH has legally guaranteed VIE at least 9 long haul planes for a decade.


Guarantees were given when they still thought traffic would recover by winter. Now we know it won't and that this winter will be a very difficult one. Don't forget that LH agreed not to fire anymore employees and then yesterday they announced that they are looking at firing 3.500 additional workers.


True. It's still hard to see an Austrian Government, having just sunk millions into OS and their hub in Vienna, to agree to a shorthaul/feeder only version of OS. I don't think we are quite there yet.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:29 am

Image

Coming soon to Austrian? It is beginning to make more and more sense. Take advantage of an all A32X fleet and the shrinking international demand for travel and rebuild the eventual medium haul network with these workhorses.


kimimm19 wrote:
It would be a crime if OS didn't receive the 787 soon.

In comparison, LH and LX don't need them.


They all need them. Austrian is the weakest of the 3, and will certainly have problems filling the 787 profitably. Better to focus them at Lufthansa.

In any case, deliveries are still 2 years away.


2175301 wrote:
A lot of 777's are going to make great freighters. I expect 4 per year once the conversion line gets up and running....


The conversion program is for the 777-300ER, not the 777-200ER which Austrian operates. Given the well known issues this frame suffers in relation to converting it to cargo, it is highly unlikely to happen.
 
GLANKG
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:34 am

Blerg wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
It was LH CEO, not OS CEO said 767/777 have no future, it sparked speculation of OS to receive 787 soon on a few outlets.

OS isn’t gonna withdraw from long haul, LH has legally guaranteed VIE at least 9 long haul planes for a decade.


Guarantees were given when they still thought traffic would recover by winter. Now we know it won't and that this winter will be a very difficult one. Don't forget that LH agreed not to fire anymore employees and then yesterday they announced that they are looking at firing 3.500 additional workers.

I don’t think anybody in LH or OS had anticipated demand would recover by winter, OS’s saving plan and bailout were both looking at 3 years recovery (2023-24 to 2019 demand), OS’s current bookings are in line with projection and has been making a profit in the limited flying they’re doing now. The challenge is next summer booking, which has experienced difficulties across LHG.

LH didn’t sign up to legal guarantee workforce intact, but the OS deal stated they have to repay the aid in the event of VIE dehub, and yes it’s specific about long haul operation. Aerotelegraph is already talking about OS and 787.
 
GLANKG
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:38 am

P.S. someone should modify the title as Carsten Spohr is LH CEO, AUA CEO is a different person.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:39 am

Some of their 777’s aren’t that old....767 well.... I can definitely see the A321XLR in OS colors
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
hitower3
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:55 am

I am still somewhat puzzled by the order of 20x789 by LH group last year. Not the fact that they order this type, but the number of 20 units seems weird to me.
OS needs about a dozen or so to achieve the badly needed generation shift away from 763/772, the full 20 would be a massive capacity upgrade.
Splitting the order among OS, LX and/or LH would result in 2 or 3 tiny subfleets, which is generally considered uneconomical.
Sending the whole 20 to either LH or LX would result in OS being left with an overaged, inefficient fleet that would require a different solution (which one?) or dismantling.

Therefore, I would have expected LH group to order another 20 options with it.
Hendric
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:59 am

hitower3 wrote:
I am still somewhat puzzled by the order of 20x789 by LH group last year. Not the fact that they order this type, but the number of 20 units seems weird to me.
OS needs about a dozen or so to achieve the badly needed generation shift away from 763/772, the full 20 would be a massive capacity upgrade.
Splitting the order among OS, LX and/or LH would result in 2 or 3 tiny subfleets, which is generally considered uneconomical.
Sending the whole 20 to either LH or LX would result in OS being left with an overaged, inefficient fleet that would require a different solution (which one?) or dismantling.

Therefore, I would have expected LH group to order another 20 options with it.
Hendric


It was the plan that all 20x would go to Lufthansa to replace the A340-300. They made it clear that Austrian wouldn't be getting new long haul jets until they became profitable.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:10 am

I really hope that OS doesn't pull out of long haul flights, they offer great service on their long haul flights, and it'll be a pity if that goes away. Hoping that they'll get a few 787s...
Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGN < DH8D OE-LGI < E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117
 
cedarjet
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:17 am

Doesn’t seem too controversial to me, they’re old Lauda Air frames, I remember them flying to Australia years ago. They’re really old. Can’t go on forever
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
alpine1989
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:35 am

2175301 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Of course the 777 has no future, it's a 1995 plane. It's already reached retirement age.


A lot of 777's are going to make great freighters. I expect 4 per year once the conversion line gets up and running....


Have a great day,


There is no conversion program for the B772. The floor isn’t rated for the weight.
 
metroline2006
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:44 am

There are a few A330’s and A350’s parked up not including some LH machines could they not be used for now?
 
Capricorn
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:46 am

Does LH & LX maybe have a couple of surplus A330s they could lend to OS during the transition? They could send some of them to OS while traffic is not at 100% and then replace them down the road with 787-8/9s. Would solve to problem of the ageing fleet at OS and what to do with some long haul planes that currently are just siting around.

But not sure how practical that would end up be, given pilot conversion retraining to A330 and so on.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:53 am

hitower3 wrote:
I am still somewhat puzzled by the order of 20x789 by LH group last year. Not the fact that they order this type, but the number of 20 units seems weird to me.
OS needs about a dozen or so to achieve the badly needed generation shift away from 763/772, the full 20 would be a massive capacity upgrade.
Splitting the order among OS, LX and/or LH would result in 2 or 3 tiny subfleets, which is generally considered uneconomical.
Sending the whole 20 to either LH or LX would result in OS being left with an overaged, inefficient fleet that would require a different solution (which one?) or dismantling.

Therefore, I would have expected LH group to order another 20 options with it.
Hendric


This has been my feeling since the announcement of the order too. It's too large for OS alone, but too small to split into two. I expect there are purchase rights for additional aircraft.

VSMUT wrote:
It was the plan that all 20x would go to Lufthansa to replace the A340-300. They made it clear that Austrian wouldn't be getting new long haul jets until they became profitable.


This was before the announcement of the 787 order. In fact, the LH Group's press release shows renderings of 787s in Lufthansa, Swiss and Austrian liveries. So some 787s may go to OS, but nothing has been decided.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:53 am

Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 am

By the way, when is the first 767 scheduled to leave? OE-LAT, the oldest one, hasn't flown since March, so I am pretty curious why doesn't they send it away if they don't use it?
UPD. I've just discovered that it is active again since today.
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frigatebird
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:02 am

Capricorn wrote:
Does LH & LX maybe have a couple of surplus A330s they could lend to OS during the transition? They could send some of them to OS while traffic is not at 100% and then replace them down the road with 787-8/9s. Would solve to problem of the ageing fleet at OS and what to do with some long haul planes that currently are just siting around.

But not sure how practical that would end up be, given pilot conversion retraining to A330 and so on.


If OS was to get hand me down A333s from LH and/or LX, then I don't expect OS get any of the 20 787s now on order. They'll soldier on with 2nd hand A333s just like SN will have to do. In that case I expect all 787s either to go to either LX or LH.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:08 am

Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.


New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:11 am

Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.

Good question. I think so, yes. But the LH Group doesn't have the XLR on order yet. Of course, they may be able to convert some of the standard A321neo's on order, but then they will still have to wait another 5 years or so.

Eventually I can see the A321XLR being an excellent choice for OS. Makes a transfer of A333s from LH/LX to OS to replace the 767/777 even more sensible, come to think of it. Don't think it's the wisest choice for OS keeping a mixed Airbus/Boeing fleet.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:16 am

frigatebird wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.

Good question. I think so, yes. But the LH Group doesn't have the XLR on order yet. Of course, they may be able to convert some of the standard A321neo's on order, but then they will still have to wait another 5 years or so.


Not necessarily. They could get the A321LR within a year. The XLR will be available from 2022. Since they are built on the same line, any Lufthansa group A32X production slot can be used for early delivery.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am

VSMUT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.


New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.


with lots of fuel to spare.....

But OS does fly to a couple of destinations way beyond the range of an A321XLR.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Pottok
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:23 am

I think Austrian may need Airbus A330-800 NEO or a 767-X (300 ER size plane). Vienna market isn't sufficient to fill big plane now like 772.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:25 am

There are 11 A330s at Eurowings which have an uncertain future. If LH are looking to simplify the fleet and reducing capacity, then retiring the 767/777 and bring the A330 (back!) to OS might make sense.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.


New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.


with lots of fuel to spare.....

But OS does fly to a couple of destinations way beyond the range of an A321XLR.

best regards
Thomas


Enough destinations to justify a dedicated fleet of expensive long haul aircraft? KLM has stated in the past that 10 is the smallest worthwhile number of aircraft in a fleet. Austrian will be down to 9 long haul aircraft soon.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:30 am

VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.


with lots of fuel to spare.....

But OS does fly to a couple of destinations way beyond the range of an A321XLR.

best regards
Thomas


Enough destinations to justify a dedicated fleet of expensive long haul aircraft? KLM has stated in the past that 10 is the smallest worthwhile number of aircraft in a fleet. Austrian will be down to 9 long haul aircraft soon.


hard to say when knock down effects on the network do more damage overall then it safes money not to having that fleet.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
na
Posts: 9778
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:46 am

I am a bit surprised that the oddball and old AUA longhaul fleet wasnt the very first to be axed in the LH network. There are surplus, more network integrated types, younger types to replace them.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 501
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:54 am

Speaking of LH, wasn't today supposed to be the day they would decide on the fate of their long-haul fleet? Has that happened yet?
RIP 9V-SKA
2007 - 2019
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13712
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:03 am

na wrote:
I am a bit surprised that the oddball and old AUA longhaul fleet wasnt the very first to be axed in the LH network.


Vienna isn´t the worst market for OD traffic and LH group may lose a good deal of that if they force customers from non-stop to one stop trips.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1837
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:07 am

The good thing about these old planes is that they are not costing as much as new ones whilst parked.
 
na
Posts: 9778
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:
na wrote:
I am a bit surprised that the oddball and old AUA longhaul fleet wasnt the very first to be axed in the LH network.


Vienna isn´t the worst market for OD traffic and LH group may lose a good deal of that if they force customers from non-stop to one stop trips.

best regards
Thomas



I was talking about the aircraft types AUA operates (As I said old and oddball), NOT longhaul service as such.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:41 am

tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

with lots of fuel to spare.....

But OS does fly to a couple of destinations way beyond the range of an A321XLR.

best regards
Thomas


Enough destinations to justify a dedicated fleet of expensive long haul aircraft? KLM has stated in the past that 10 is the smallest worthwhile number of aircraft in a fleet. Austrian will be down to 9 long haul aircraft soon.


hard to say when knock down effects on the network do more damage overall then it safes money not to having that fleet.

best regards
Thomas


Sure, but network needs can be solved in different ways. The most tricky destinations will be Tokyo and Bangkok. Both of those destinations are home to Star Alliance carriers that they could codeshare with. In addition, EVA Air already flies between Vienna and Bangkok. In the US, it isn't uncommon for airlines to shuffle long-haul jets around. What is to prevent Lufthansa group from sending an A330 down from Munich or Zurich to operate those two destinations that Austrian can't do themselves?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
What is to prevent Lufthansa group from sending an A330 down from Munich or Zurich to operate those two destinations that Austrian can't do themselves?


If passengers are happy to buy 'OS xxx operated by Lufthansa' and seeing an LH plane and crew show up, probably nothing. Is there anything in the relevant OS pilot contract specifying that long haul (or other) flights from VIE have to be aboard OS aircraft operated by OS crews? One could imagine a nationalistic Austrian government at some point not being too happy about that.
 
Kbud
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.


New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.

I wonder about their ORD flights. They've rotated between the 777 and 767 for a few years. It seems a tad too aggressive for the range of the A321XLR.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
What is to prevent Lufthansa group from sending an A330 down from Munich or Zurich to operate those two destinations that Austrian can't do themselves?


If passengers are happy to buy 'OS xxx operated by Lufthansa' and seeing an LH plane and crew show up, probably nothing. Is there anything in the relevant OS pilot contract specifying that long haul (or other) flights from VIE have to be aboard OS aircraft operated by OS crews? One could imagine a nationalistic Austrian government at some point not being too happy about that.


I don't think OS or LH would be too happy about it as I have a feeling LH management would rush to dispatch one of their Ocean A330 with lower costs. That could set a dangerous precedent.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:49 pm

Kbud wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Can the A321XLR make it to New York from Vienna? I mean once you factor in all the winds and non-direct routing.


New York almost definitely. It is only 3600 nm, the A321XLR can do 4700 nm. It could do it with an average headwind across the entire route of over 120 knots. The basic A321LR already did similar length flights across the atlantic.

I wonder about their ORD flights. They've rotated between the 777 and 767 for a few years. It seems a tad too aggressive for the range of the A321XLR.


I remember when Austria banned flights to the Balkans, Austrian Airlines immediately suspended ORD. It was reported that some 70% of passengers are transfers. I can't imagine this being a cash cow for OS as most passengers come from the Balkans and eastern Europe.
 
User avatar
Boeing757100
Posts: 313
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Re: Austrian Airlines CEO: These planes (767/777) no longer have a future

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:53 pm

2175301 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Of course the 777 has no future, it's a 1995 plane. It's already reached retirement age.


A lot of 777's are going to make great freighters. I expect 4 per year once the conversion line gets up and running....


Have a great day,




Yeah, and the same thing for the 767
The 757-MAX is happening tomorrow.

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