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aerdingus
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:27 am

frigatebird wrote:
Well not unexpected but do I count myself lucky I was on my first (and most likely last) A346 flight SCL-MAD last November. On the last produced A346 ever too. :cloudnine: And it really was much nicer than the A359 I have to say....

SA's A346s are on their way out too, will LH retain theirs?


This is the exact a/c I flew on in January last year. LHR - MAD. Always felt bittersweet that it was the last one ever produced. I was in economy. I didn't think much of the cabin but the crew and the view of the 2 Trents out my window was very nice.

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Polot
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:48 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
They might be counting on the UX takeover adding some new 789's although my bet is that we'll see some A346's back to serve hot/high airports such as MEX, UIO and BOG.

Pre-covid IB was planning on shifting the daily BOG flight to the A350 later this year (the start date kept on getting push back, I think September was the latest date before covid happened). As others mentioned earlier in the thread despite still having A346s in fleet IB is currently using the A350 to MEX, although I don’t know how restricted.

If the A346s are retired I wouldn’t necessarily bet on any coming back.
 
upintheair2019
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:21 pm

Confirmed: Iberia will retire its 14 A340-600s by the end of 2020. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23P1WQ
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:27 pm

Polot wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
They might be counting on the UX takeover adding some new 789's although my bet is that we'll see some A346's back to serve hot/high airports such as MEX, UIO and BOG.

Pre-covid IB was planning on shifting the daily BOG flight to the A350 later this year (the start date kept on getting push back, I think September was the latest date before covid happened). As others mentioned earlier in the thread despite still having A346s in fleet IB is currently using the A350 to MEX, although I don’t know how restricted.

If the A346s are retired I wouldn’t necessarily bet on any coming back.


It isn't a matter of A359 vs. A346 capabilities but about how quick the recovery is, If it is quick enough to restablish at least 1xdaily service to IB's primery markets in US & LatAm, 28 frames won't be enough.

As said in my first post, 28 frames is roughly what's needed for one daily EZE,LIM,SCL,BOG,UIO,GRU,MEX,ORD,JFK and MIA.
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Revelation
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:32 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Anyone know if the Airbus price 'guarantee' on the -300s was used by IB when they retired those a few years back?

The article suggests a similar resale value guarantees deal is in place for the A346's, It could still turn out expensive for Airbus

So maybe that explains why LH would retire A346 while keeping A343 running. A346 had strong competition from 777 so extraordinary measures had to be taken, one that could now prove costly. LH already has triggered some A380 buy back provisions. I wonder if there are more of these waiting to come in to effect?
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MIflyer12
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:38 pm

Stitch wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The Wall Street Journal ran an article in 2003 on Boeing's competition with Airbus on the deal that led to the A340-600s at IB. Purchase and operating analysis for long-lived assets in a world where long-term forecasts for fuel prices are notoriously unreliable and ultimate sales of the type to other carriers is unknown is tough.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1047243854826319840


Dupuy de Lome still did plenty well for the carrier with his A340-600 deal. :biggrin:


How big a write-down is IB going to take on 346 frames and parts?

There's more than one way to think of the competition. Several carriers (IB, VS, LH) and lease companies have scrapped 346s of that era - yet 77Ws continue to be in service, including the first one delivered, in April '04 to AF. (I don't find a single early-build 77W that has been scrapped in planespotters.net records.) That speaks to superior operating economics of the 77W.

Face it: 77Ws vanquished 345/346 and A380 for large long-haul.
 
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Channex757
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:48 pm

It does surprise me that someone like DHL and their contract flyers have never seemed to want to consider the A346 as a package hauler. Obviously the A333P2F is a better bet, but the A346 could offer range and volume.
 
iberiadc852
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:06 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely surprising, given the A330/A350 fleet efficiencies compared to the A346. Sorry to see them go. Flew in them twice on two different trips, MAD-JFK and JFK to MAD, both in Business Class. There is something unique about experiencing takeoff on the A340-600 in the front of the plane.

Not so unique. It's just like you are in a big lift that hardly makes any noise. You just notice being elevated...........but yes, quite unique for an aircraft :D
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
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Polot
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:13 pm

Channex757 wrote:
It does surprise me that someone like DHL and their contract flyers have never seemed to want to consider the A346 as a package hauler. Obviously the A333P2F is a better bet, but the A346 could offer range and volume.

There were only 97 A346 built, of which more than a dozen have already been scrapped. That is not enough feedstock to make developing the conversion worth the expense.
 
airbazar
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:21 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
Of course it's a matter of airline economics but speaking purely as a passenger a do love the A340, especially the 600.

The A340-600 is by far the most comfortable airplane I have ever flown in. I should add that my experience has been on LH's A346's and that I have never flown on an A380.
 
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Stitch
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
How big a write-down is IB going to take on 346 frames and parts?


IB had asset value guarantees on the A340-600s so I wonder if those are still in effect and if so, how they will impact said write-downs.



MIflyer12 wrote:
Face it: 77Ws vanquished 345/346 and A380 for large long-haul.


Yes it did, but IB had a very sharp deal in mind for their purchase and while Boeing came very close (to the point they thought they had won the RFP), Airbus actually met that deal and won the business.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:23 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Polot wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
They might be counting on the UX takeover adding some new 789's although my bet is that we'll see some A346's back to serve hot/high airports such as MEX, UIO and BOG.

Pre-covid IB was planning on shifting the daily BOG flight to the A350 later this year (the start date kept on getting push back, I think September was the latest date before covid happened). As others mentioned earlier in the thread despite still having A346s in fleet IB is currently using the A350 to MEX, although I don’t know how restricted.

If the A346s are retired I wouldn’t necessarily bet on any coming back.


It isn't a matter of A359 vs. A346 capabilities but about how quick the recovery is, If it is quick enough to restablish at least 1xdaily service to IB's primery markets in US & LatAm, 28 frames won't be enough.

As said in my first post, 28 frames is roughly what's needed for one daily EZE,LIM,SCL,BOG,UIO,GRU,MEX,ORD,JFK and MIA.


I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:17 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
It isn't a matter of A359 vs. A346 capabilities but about how quick the recovery is, If it is quick enough to restablish at least 1xdaily service to IB's primery markets in US & LatAm, 28 frames won't be enough.

As said in my first post, 28 frames is roughly what's needed for one daily EZE,LIM,SCL,BOG,UIO,GRU,MEX,ORD,JFK and MIA.


I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.


My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.
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M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
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Westerwaelder
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:28 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
It isn't a matter of A359 vs. A346 capabilities but about how quick the recovery is, If it is quick enough to restablish at least 1xdaily service to IB's primery markets in US & LatAm, 28 frames won't be enough.

As said in my first post, 28 frames is roughly what's needed for one daily EZE,LIM,SCL,BOG,UIO,GRU,MEX,ORD,JFK and MIA.


I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.


My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.


Do you really need 3 frames for a daily service to MEX or BOG? Is not more 2 frames for a daily flight on these routes?
 
RvA
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:34 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.


My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.


Do you really need 3 frames for a daily service to MEX or BOG? Is not more 2 frames for a daily flight on these routes?


I would think 2 could likely do as well, especially since part of their network sees morning departures and some evening so they can rotate aircraft etc.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:36 am

RvA wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.


Do you really need 3 frames for a daily service to MEX or BOG? Is not more 2 frames for a daily flight on these routes?


I would think 2 could likely do as well, especially since part of their network sees morning departures and some evening so they can rotate aircraft etc.


And 6 to 8 frames for four non daily routes to Central America and the Caribbean is also more than needed. Depending on frequency you need 3 to 4 frames maximum.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:02 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.


My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.


Do you really need 3 frames for a daily service to MEX or BOG? Is not more 2 frames for a daily flight on these routes?


Complete brain fart, didn’t proof read, 2 frames each is what I should have written.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:45 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
RvA wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

Do you really need 3 frames for a daily service to MEX or BOG? Is not more 2 frames for a daily flight on these routes?


I would think 2 could likely do as well, especially since part of their network sees morning departures and some evening so they can rotate aircraft etc.


And 6 to 8 frames for four non daily routes to Central America and the Caribbean is also more than needed. Depending on frequency you need 3 to 4 frames maximum.


Well, I'm not an airline scheduler but my point is that demand will pick up soon enough to see IB bringing back some of the A346's. I see them picking up LatAm very soon, they don't want to give up competitive advantage to AF/KL on their bread&butter markets. Current financial situation of AV, LA and AM point out to AF/KL and IB getting a large majority of the Europe-LatAm marketshare.
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RvA
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
RvA wrote:

I would think 2 could likely do as well, especially since part of their network sees morning departures and some evening so they can rotate aircraft etc.


And 6 to 8 frames for four non daily routes to Central America and the Caribbean is also more than needed. Depending on frequency you need 3 to 4 frames maximum.


Well, I'm not an airline scheduler but my point is that demand will pick up soon enough to see IB bringing back some of the A346's. I see them picking up LatAm very soon, they don't want to give up competitive advantage to AF/KL on their bread&butter markets. Current financial situation of AV, LA and AM point out to AF/KL and IB getting a large majority of the Europe-LatAm marketshare.


Out of interest what makes you think demand is going to pick up soon enough?
 
tobsw
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Talking of post-COVID-19 situation is useless... as that situation will only happen IF vaccine/antiviral treatment is found (or globally, herd immunity is achieved). In essence, we are a LONG way (1, 2, 3 o 5 years) to a post-COVID-19.

IF you talk about IB long haul plans during COVID-19... I'm pretty sure that schedule is way too optimistic. Even though in Europe the situation is more or less under control, don't forget that globally we are not there yet. New cases are emerging, new record cases almost every second day... and it's mainly due to the situation in America: North, Central and South American, with exceptions, don't have under control de virus.

Honestly, I don't see IB running daily service to pretty much anywhere. There's no demand, either the American countries will have their border shut, or the other way round, European countries won't allow American citizens (North- central- and South-Americans) to enter Europe. It seems as the EU border will remain closed to third countries by default (apparently some countries will be allowed in from 1st of july, but no news so far, and I suspect, the global ban will be extended until at least end of August).

IB has some problems - it's not a strong carrier -, which is very obvious in this crisis:
-MAD geography is crap for intra-European connections.
-MAD is not a tourist hot spot.
-IB relies heavily on America. Without America, IB is essentially, nothing.
-IB did not prioritise cargo - despite one of the leading textil industry having their global distribution centre in Spain. IB left that market to the competition.

So IB now stands there, looking into the walls.

In my eyes, IB has lost the plot. They honestly don't know what to do. They have shown they want to remain rigid, no flexibility, no adaptation to the situation. Nothing. Just hoping the COVID-19 furlough system is extended into December... otherwise, they will ring to the finance minister and PM in the 3rd quarter asking for a bailout.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:29 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
It isn't a matter of A359 vs. A346 capabilities but about how quick the recovery is, If it is quick enough to restablish at least 1xdaily service to IB's primery markets in US & LatAm, 28 frames won't be enough.

As said in my first post, 28 frames is roughly what's needed for one daily EZE,LIM,SCL,BOG,UIO,GRU,MEX,ORD,JFK and MIA.


I don’t know anything I’ll admit about IB but it’s sad to see the A346 retired early, I flew on a brand new TG one AKL-BKK in 2006 in Y, so comfortable! That’s more the airline configuration but 2-4-2 is great.

Are there other long haul routes though we are talking about in an initial post covid schedule for IB? The mentioned ones would need 17-18 aircraft, certainly no where near 28, that’s allowing 1 each for ORD/MIA/JFK and 3 each for the South American routes.


My expectation pot-covid on IB long haul is:

1xdaily EZE, LIM, SCL, UIO, GRU, BOG and MEX - 3 frames each - 18 frames
1xdaily ORD, JFK, MIA - 1 frame each - 3 frames.
Although not mentioned in my first post, assuming less than daily service to SJO, PTY, SDQ, HAV to be resumed at some point - 6/8 frames.

There are the 28 frames ruling out resumption of JNB, PVG, NRT or a second daily JFK, MEX or EZE.

You don't need 3 frames for a daily flight from Europe to South America ever, even if you park the plane for the whole day both in MAD and down there it's 2 frames max. If any of the routes ever have a day flight it can work out to be 3 frames for 2 daily routes.

Michael
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:35 pm

RvA wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

And 6 to 8 frames for four non daily routes to Central America and the Caribbean is also more than needed. Depending on frequency you need 3 to 4 frames maximum.


Well, I'm not an airline scheduler but my point is that demand will pick up soon enough to see IB bringing back some of the A346's. I see them picking up LatAm very soon, they don't want to give up competitive advantage to AF/KL on their bread&butter markets. Current financial situation of AV, LA and AM point out to AF/KL and IB getting a large majority of the Europe-LatAm marketshare.


Out of interest what makes you think demand is going to pick up soon enough?


Let me be clear, I think demand will recover soon enough for IB to resume long haul only to some extent. I'm not thinking IB will be 3xdaily to EZE, or 2xdaily to BOG and MEX, or will resume BOS or LAX any time soon, but I think 1xdaily to their largest markets in LatAm and US will be back as soon as early 2021.

Opinions suggesting 2,3,5 years to get out of covid deserve respect although I personally believe there will be a vaccine available in the first half of 2021. The whole world can't afford such a long stall, that's why authorities are taking shortcus in medical developments. Besides vaccines, covid treatment is getting better so much less people are going to IC these days (in Europe) than 3 months ago.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
tobsw
Posts: 136
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Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:

Let me be clear, I think demand will recover soon enough for IB to resume long haul only to some extent. I'm not thinking IB will be 3xdaily to EZE, or 2xdaily to BOG and MEX, or will resume BOS or LAX any time soon, but I think 1xdaily to their largest markets in LatAm and US will be back as soon as early 2021.

Opinions suggesting 2,3,5 years to get out of covid deserve respect although I personally believe there will be a vaccine available in the first half of 2021. The whole world can't afford such a long stall, that's why authorities are taking shortcuts in medical developments. Besides vaccines, covid treatment is getting better so much less people are going to IC these days (in Europe) than 3 months ago.


Only looking at Europe is very shortsighted. Look at global numbers.

And no, no shortcuts are being made in vaccine development. Usually what slows down development of treatment/vaccines is paperwork; authorities are now prioritising COVID-19 paperwork, so there isn't a slowing down of development. But all phases are still required to develop an effective a SAFE vaccine or treatment.

So far what we've seen in IB long haul network is a ONCE weekly flight to some latam destinations and NYC, just for cargo purposes. There's just no demand.

Even if you check July's IB long haul schedule, Lima has been removed in the last couple of days. I'm pretty sure more frequencies will be cut from the July schedule.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:27 pm

tobsw wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

Let me be clear, I think demand will recover soon enough for IB to resume long haul only to some extent. I'm not thinking IB will be 3xdaily to EZE, or 2xdaily to BOG and MEX, or will resume BOS or LAX any time soon, but I think 1xdaily to their largest markets in LatAm and US will be back as soon as early 2021.

Opinions suggesting 2,3,5 years to get out of covid deserve respect although I personally believe there will be a vaccine available in the first half of 2021. The whole world can't afford such a long stall, that's why authorities are taking shortcuts in medical developments. Besides vaccines, covid treatment is getting better so much less people are going to IC these days (in Europe) than 3 months ago.


Only looking at Europe is very shortsighted. Look at global numbers.

And no, no shortcuts are being made in vaccine development. Usually what slows down development of treatment/vaccines is paperwork; authorities are now prioritising COVID-19 paperwork, so there isn't a slowing down of development. But all phases are still required to develop an effective a SAFE vaccine or treatment.

So far what we've seen in IB long haul network is a ONCE weekly flight to some latam destinations and NYC, just for cargo purposes. There's just no demand.

Even if you check July's IB long haul schedule, Lima has been removed in the last couple of days. I'm pretty sure more frequencies will be cut from the July schedule.


My view is not towards July but early 2021, still a long way to get there. Intra-asian (far east) was completely stopped in early february and is now recovering, intra-european traffic also stopped in mid-march and is now picking-up. Same thing will happen in the americas before end of the year. Time will tell.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Jomar777
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:19 pm

a350lover wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

28 total long haul frames -assuming level frames get back to IB mainline- tells me that IB is expecting a deep cut on its long haul network,which is surprising to me since I expect their major LatAm stations to recover service relatively quick giving the issues the likes of LA and AV are facing. 1xdaily to EZE, GRU, GIG, MEX, SCL, LIM, UIO, BOG, ORD, JFK and MIA needs roughly those 28 frames. IMO some of those markets such as EZE, MEX and JFK) will demand multiple daily by years end,

They might be counting on the UX takeover adding some new 789's although my bet is that we'll see some A346's back to serve hot/high airports such as MEX, UIO and BOG.


I agree very much on your bet to see back some A346s if things get back on track in 1-2 years time.

I see lots of capacity being cut, mainly in SCL, EZE, MEX, LIM and BOG, which are all the Golden Routes for IB. I could easily see them all back to 1 daily in the short-term of 3-6 months. Same JFK, probably back to one daily.

Iberia eventually moved on to new markets in recent years where I see them quitting in the short term:

-SFO
-IAD (due to May20, never started)
-BOS
-PVG
-NRT (could survive if the Olympics finally take place next year)
-GYE
-GIG (things went really bad in Brazil).


Whilst I agree that the first three on your list (all US Based Airports) might not survive (or start...) given that they might rely on AA and/or BA (maybe with a hop in LHR), I think that PVG may continue since pos-COVID19 (where not many people is flying anywhere anyway...), market will be there.

NRT - you are right. It will depend on Tokyo 2020 mainly in regards to public presence - or not - since I feel that the Olympics (in what competitions are related) will go ahead.

GYE and GIG are on their main non-European Market and they will certainly remain unless they can coordinate with UX (that is, if UX's deal still goes ahead). Specifically for GIG, they could even consider reducing one of the frequencies to GRU if it would come to that.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4647
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:03 pm

tobsw wrote:


So far what we've seen in IB long haul network is a ONCE weekly flight to some latam destinations and NYC, just for cargo purposes. There's just no demand.

Even if you check July's IB long haul schedule, Lima has been removed in the last couple of days. I'm pretty sure more frequencies will be cut from the July schedule.


Agree. I highly doubt Iberia will initially return to its top Lat Am destinations with a daily rotation. The demand is just not there. For comparison's sake, Air Europa is returning to EZE with 3 weekly flights on Sep 2. A very cautious approach to the most traveled P2P route in South America from Madrid. BA announced its return to EZE on the same day, but with 4 weekly frequencies (was daily), downgauged to a 787-8 from the 77E.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:22 am

Part of the problem is the lack of connections available at the moment. Iberia is pushing some of their departure bank to South America towards the late afternoon. Thus, the typical departure frame 11-13h towards America, is now being rescheduled towards 3-5pm (i.e Quito), so that they can capture some traffic from the super light schedule they plan to fly in Spain/Europe. IB claims the demand is really weak, and they are doing as much as they can to preserve cash.

For instance, no aircraft overnight in Europe of IB planes planned until November 2020, and this scenario might change for even later. They used to overnight in ZRH, GVA, BRU, DUS, MUC, FCO, LIN, ORY, HAM and other cities via partners (IBS, ANE). These have been removed and therefore there is no feed for any possible connections to South America, which anyway won't be much in current conditions there.
 
tobsw
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:49 am

Connections while borders are closed are irrelevant. The main issue is exactly that: borders are closed at both ends of the Atlantic. No matter how many connecting feeders you have, it's irrelevant.

In fact, some of the Latam destinations, like Quito have a bizarre schedule: they leave MAD at 23:55 and arrive at 4 am in the morning in Quito.

Anyway, we just need to wait for the Schengen area to make public that Schengen borders will remain closed to third countries until the end of August. Many flights and frequencies will drop from IBs schedule overnight.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:31 am

A real shame. I hate seeing less variety in the skies.
 
ThomasCook
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:43 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:54 am

tobsw wrote:

IB has some problems - it's not a strong carrier -, which is very obvious in this crisis:
-MAD geography is crap for intra-European connections.
-MAD is not a tourist hot spot.
-IB relies heavily on America. Without America, IB is essentially, nothing.
-IB did not prioritise cargo - despite one of the leading textil industry having their global distribution centre in Spain. IB left that market to the competition.


I don't know enough about IB to dispute all your statements here however firstly, I don't think IB has ever proclaimed to be a go to carrier for intra-european connections. International connections on the other hand, it serves very well, in particular in better times, to South America.

Madrid not being a tourist 'hot spot' is simply untrue. It's one of the most visited cities in Europe, a little behind Barcelona, but 7.6 million visitors in 2019 up from 2.9m in 2002 - the figures speak for themselves. I believe it ranks 22nd in the world. In annual 'bed-nights' it ranks 6th in Europe and above BCN, PRG and AMS.

IB does rely heavily on the Americas. Its their prime market and a heavily populated continent with strong Spanish links after all. Most carriers have a prime market and will run into difficulties if that market/contenent collapses. What do BA, Aer Lingus, Virgin and a whole host of other carriers become without North America? Brussels Airlines without Africa?
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:02 am

x1234 wrote:
What really needs to happen is BA's A350/787 deliveries to get rid of the fuel hog B744's. Iberia is more efficient than BA already...


The "fuel hog" 744 are depreciated and paid for. They have lots of Business Class seats with First Class too. Fuel is cheap and BA uses them on many 6-8 hour flights, many to the US east coast. This is a formula is reap in the revenue until the Jumbos need costly repairs or fuel goes to USD $ 100 a barrel.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:02 am

x1234 wrote:
What really needs to happen is BA's A350/787 deliveries to get rid of the fuel hog B744's. Iberia is more efficient than BA already...


The "fuel hog" 744 are depreciated and paid for. They have lots of Business Class seats with First Class too. Fuel is cheap and BA uses them on many 6-8 hour flights, many to the US east coast. This is a formula is reap in the revenue until the Jumbos need costly repairs or fuel goes to USD $ 100 a barrel.
 
tobsw
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:59 am

ThomasCook wrote:

I don't know enough about IB to dispute all your statements here however firstly, I don't think IB has ever proclaimed to be a go to carrier for intra-european connections. International connections on the other hand, it serves very well, in particular in better times, to South America.


I only pointed out reasons to build my argument that IB's position is extremely weak in this situation. Other carriers share some of this weaknesses, others don't. For instance, in the case of Lufthansa, MUC and FRA are not tourist hot spots either, but their geographical position is advantageous for intra-European connections.

ThomasCook wrote:
Madrid not being a tourist 'hot spot' is simply untrue. It's one of the most visited cities in Europe, a little behind Barcelona, but 7.6 million visitors in 2019 up from 2.9m in 2002 - the figures speak for themselves. I believe it ranks 22nd in the world. In annual 'bed-nights' it ranks 6th in Europe and above BCN, PRG and AMS.


If we consider that Spain received almost 90 million international visitors during 2019, the amount of visitors that visit the Comunidad de Madrid is very little (the data you shared is actually the Comunidad de Madrid numbers, not the city). In comparison, Catalonia received almost 20 millions international visitors in 2019, and the Balearic islands, 13 millions international visitors.

Anyway, we also have to consider that MAD receives plenty of corporate international visitors, which in this time disappear.

Based on your ranking of Madrid being the 22nd most visited in the world, in the same ranking, Barcelona is 10 places up: position number 12 [but that ranking is broken anyway, doesn't consider many cities].

We probably can have a long conversation whether MAD is or not a tourist hot-spot. I'm inclined to say, no. Your opinion may be different.

ThomasCook wrote:
IB does rely heavily on the Americas. Its their prime market and a heavily populated continent with strong Spanish links after all. Most carriers have a prime market and will run into difficulties if that market/contenent collapses. What do BA, Aer Lingus, Virgin and a whole host of other carriers become without North America? Brussels Airlines without Africa?


Yes, IB relies heavily on America. In a similar position, Virgin and Aer Lingus (British Airways has diversified a little bit).

That's the whole point of my previos comment. IBs position is (worryingly) very very weak: absolutely nothing is playing in their favour. That's why they have decided to get rid of there 340-600 for the foreseeable future. It's very very sad, but, unfortunately, the reality.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:42 pm

tobsw wrote:
ThomasCook wrote:

I don't know enough about IB to dispute all your statements here however firstly, I don't think IB has ever proclaimed to be a go to carrier for intra-european connections. International connections on the other hand, it serves very well, in particular in better times, to South America.


I only pointed out reasons to build my argument that IB's position is extremely weak in this situation. Other carriers share some of this weaknesses, others don't. For instance, in the case of Lufthansa, MUC and FRA are not tourist hot spots either, but their geographical position is advantageous for intra-European connections.

ThomasCook wrote:
Madrid not being a tourist 'hot spot' is simply untrue. It's one of the most visited cities in Europe, a little behind Barcelona, but 7.6 million visitors in 2019 up from 2.9m in 2002 - the figures speak for themselves. I believe it ranks 22nd in the world. In annual 'bed-nights' it ranks 6th in Europe and above BCN, PRG and AMS.


If we consider that Spain received almost 90 million international visitors during 2019, the amount of visitors that visit the Comunidad de Madrid is very little (the data you shared is actually the Comunidad de Madrid numbers, not the city). In comparison, Catalonia received almost 20 millions international visitors in 2019, and the Balearic islands, 13 millions international visitors.

Anyway, we also have to consider that MAD receives plenty of corporate international visitors, which in this time disappear.

Based on your ranking of Madrid being the 22nd most visited in the world, in the same ranking, Barcelona is 10 places up: position number 12 [but that ranking is broken anyway, doesn't consider many cities].

We probably can have a long conversation whether MAD is or not a tourist hot-spot. I'm inclined to say, no. Your opinion may be different.

ThomasCook wrote:
IB does rely heavily on the Americas. Its their prime market and a heavily populated continent with strong Spanish links after all. Most carriers have a prime market and will run into difficulties if that market/contenent collapses. What do BA, Aer Lingus, Virgin and a whole host of other carriers become without North America? Brussels Airlines without Africa?


Yes, IB relies heavily on America. In a similar position, Virgin and Aer Lingus (British Airways has diversified a little bit).

That's the whole point of my previos comment. IBs position is (worryingly) very very weak: absolutely nothing is playing in their favour. That's why they have decided to get rid of there 340-600 for the foreseeable future. It's very very sad, but, unfortunately, the reality.



Iberia's core will always be in Latin America to places like Buenos Aires, Lima, and Mexico City. In recent years they have diversified and could do more, Hong Kong ? They don't yet fly to HKG but do to PVG and NRT. In the USA they also fly to LAX, ORD and SFO beyond the traditional Miami and JFK. DFW & Orlando would be interesting markets, the reason IB doesn't fly to DFW shouldn't be AA. IB could be more then it is currently.
 
Kadish
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:36 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:23 pm

tobsw wrote:
ThomasCook wrote:

I don't know enough about IB to dispute all your statements here however firstly, I don't think IB has ever proclaimed to be a go to carrier for intra-european connections. International connections on the other hand, it serves very well, in particular in better times, to South America.


I only pointed out reasons to build my argument that IB's position is extremely weak in this situation. Other carriers share some of this weaknesses, others don't. For instance, in the case of Lufthansa, MUC and FRA are not tourist hot spots either, but their geographical position is advantageous for intra-European connections.

ThomasCook wrote:
Madrid not being a tourist 'hot spot' is simply untrue. It's one of the most visited cities in Europe, a little behind Barcelona, but 7.6 million visitors in 2019 up from 2.9m in 2002 - the figures speak for themselves. I believe it ranks 22nd in the world. In annual 'bed-nights' it ranks 6th in Europe and above BCN, PRG and AMS.


If we consider that Spain received almost 90 million international visitors during 2019, the amount of visitors that visit the Comunidad de Madrid is very little (the data you shared is actually the Comunidad de Madrid numbers, not the city). In comparison, Catalonia received almost 20 millions international visitors in 2019, and the Balearic islands, 13 millions international visitors.

Anyway, we also have to consider that MAD receives plenty of corporate international visitors, which in this time disappear.

Based on your ranking of Madrid being the 22nd most visited in the world, in the same ranking, Barcelona is 10 places up: position number 12 [but that ranking is broken anyway, doesn't consider many cities].

We probably can have a long conversation whether MAD is or not a tourist hot-spot. I'm inclined to say, no. Your opinion may be different.

ThomasCook wrote:
IB does rely heavily on the Americas. Its their prime market and a heavily populated continent with strong Spanish links after all. Most carriers have a prime market and will run into difficulties if that market/contenent collapses. What do BA, Aer Lingus, Virgin and a whole host of other carriers become without North America? Brussels Airlines without Africa?


Yes, IB relies heavily on America. In a similar position, Virgin and Aer Lingus (British Airways has diversified a little bit).

That's the whole point of my previos comment. IBs position is (worryingly) very very weak: absolutely nothing is playing in their favour. That's why they have decided to get rid of there 340-600 for the foreseeable future. It's very very sad, but, unfortunately, the reality.


Comparing Comunidad de Madrid and Cataluña, is unfair.
Four different "provincias" or " states" versus just one. 3 if those provincias are by the sea, they are the hottest city un Europe for low cost companies thus so most of those 22 millions come only for cheap food, cheap beer...so IMO totally avoidable. Plus many people arrive yo Barcelona yo star their cruises...
Saying that Madrid is not hot spot having 3 top ten museums, one of the BEST nights, one the safest cities in the world, surrounded by world heritage places like Toledo, Segovia...is saying too much.

Beside that for me being a hot spot is totally overrated, think in Venice, Barcelona...they have lost their identity and become " vulgar".
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3362
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:24 pm

jfk777 wrote:
tobsw wrote:
ThomasCook wrote:

I don't know enough about IB to dispute all your statements here however firstly, I don't think IB has ever proclaimed to be a go to carrier for intra-european connections. International connections on the other hand, it serves very well, in particular in better times, to South America.


I only pointed out reasons to build my argument that IB's position is extremely weak in this situation. Other carriers share some of this weaknesses, others don't. For instance, in the case of Lufthansa, MUC and FRA are not tourist hot spots either, but their geographical position is advantageous for intra-European connections.

ThomasCook wrote:
Madrid not being a tourist 'hot spot' is simply untrue. It's one of the most visited cities in Europe, a little behind Barcelona, but 7.6 million visitors in 2019 up from 2.9m in 2002 - the figures speak for themselves. I believe it ranks 22nd in the world. In annual 'bed-nights' it ranks 6th in Europe and above BCN, PRG and AMS.


If we consider that Spain received almost 90 million international visitors during 2019, the amount of visitors that visit the Comunidad de Madrid is very little (the data you shared is actually the Comunidad de Madrid numbers, not the city). In comparison, Catalonia received almost 20 millions international visitors in 2019, and the Balearic islands, 13 millions international visitors.

Anyway, we also have to consider that MAD receives plenty of corporate international visitors, which in this time disappear.

Based on your ranking of Madrid being the 22nd most visited in the world, in the same ranking, Barcelona is 10 places up: position number 12 [but that ranking is broken anyway, doesn't consider many cities].

We probably can have a long conversation whether MAD is or not a tourist hot-spot. I'm inclined to say, no. Your opinion may be different.

ThomasCook wrote:
IB does rely heavily on the Americas. Its their prime market and a heavily populated continent with strong Spanish links after all. Most carriers have a prime market and will run into difficulties if that market/contenent collapses. What do BA, Aer Lingus, Virgin and a whole host of other carriers become without North America? Brussels Airlines without Africa?


Yes, IB relies heavily on America. In a similar position, Virgin and Aer Lingus (British Airways has diversified a little bit).

That's the whole point of my previos comment. IBs position is (worryingly) very very weak: absolutely nothing is playing in their favour. That's why they have decided to get rid of there 340-600 for the foreseeable future. It's very very sad, but, unfortunately, the reality.



Iberia's core will always be in Latin America to places like Buenos Aires, Lima, and Mexico City. In recent years they have diversified and could do more, Hong Kong ? They don't yet fly to HKG but do to PVG and NRT. In the USA they also fly to LAX, ORD and SFO beyond the traditional Miami and JFK. DFW & Orlando would be interesting markets, the reason IB doesn't fly to DFW shouldn't be AA. IB could be more then it is currently.


CX flies HKG-MAD with the A350-1000. With the A321XLR coming down the road (8 of them going to IB), more routes to the U.S and Canada + Middle East/Africa Coverage. There have been strong rumors that other asian airlines were supposed to start MAD in the next years such as Kuwait, Thai, Singapore and Air Astana but the following crisis has put them all on hold. IB has the potential to expand but from what I have heard they have quite a clear throat policy when it comes to profit on new routes, that they can't need to break even but need to make extra profits otherwise they won't fly them. This is different from Air Europa which operates to more secondary market where it breaks more even compared to IB. The following IB policy lead to many routes being axed such as Equatorial Guinea, Accra and Lagos which TP generally has covered.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:43 am

This is very sad. Fortunately got to fly in one of them one last time last July BOG-MAD in C class. Wonderful birds.Given the skeleton schedule most airlines will operate from now until potentially 2022, there's just no need for IB to keep them in the fleet.

Speaking of those new-ish routes that might not come back, I don't see MDE returning either. They flew it 3x weekly from MAD on the A332/3. They were doing ok but the route had yet to mature.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13202
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:07 am

a350lover wrote:
-NRT (could survive if the Olympics finally take place next year)

A scheduled longhaul route is not going to make-or-break based on a 2wk long sporting event.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:33 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
a350lover wrote:
-NRT (could survive if the Olympics finally take place next year)

A scheduled longhaul route is not going to make-or-break based on a 2wk long sporting event.


I agree, but NRT-MAD was doing fine before all this crisis. It launched 3 years ago with 3x/w after PVG, both of these Asian links on A332. NRT increased frequencies to 5 per week a year ago, and was upgrading to daily on A350 this April. Never happened due to corona. IB recognized NRT was doing much better than PVG, being China a very tough market for all Western carriers due to local competence. I bet IB evaluated dropping PVG before corona, so little or zero chance to see them back there in the short future. I believe there is demand for a direct link Japan-Spain, whether this is done by IB or JAL we'll see once demand recovers.
 
aviator2000
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:11 pm

Kadish wrote:

Comparing Comunidad de Madrid and Cataluña, is unfair.
Four different "provincias" or " states" versus just one. 3 if those provincias are by the sea, they are the hottest city un Europe for low cost companies thus so most of those 22 millions come only for cheap food, cheap beer...so IMO totally avoidable. Plus many people arrive yo Barcelona yo star their cruises...
Saying that Madrid is not hot spot having 3 top ten museums, one of the BEST nights, one the safest cities in the world, surrounded by world heritage places like Toledo, Segovia...is saying too much.

Beside that for me being a hot spot is totally overrated, think in Venice, Barcelona...they have lost their identity and become " vulgar".


Your comments are so controversial. First you say that Madrid is in disadvantage with Catalonia partly because of the latter's proximity to the sea and because it is a focus city for low cost carriers and right after that you say that the type of tourism it attracts is "avoidable" Later on, you mention that Madrid should be considered a touristic hot spot to reitarate in the following sentence that touristic hot spots are "totally overrated". I really don't know what to make of it..
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4755
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: IB announces the retirement of A346 fleet

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:21 pm

Iberia served required one-year notice to Aena its intend to vacate hangar complex at Madrid Barajas that in recent years focused on care of the A319/20/21 and A340 feets.

https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/ ... rsoc=TW_CC
mercure f-wtcc

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