Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:09 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Imo they have overordered. 60 777Xs was always way too many.. At most they need half that. I expect some to be cancelled and/or converted to 787s.

Depends on how you look at it. They have 48 77Ws and 10 77Ls they’ve ordered 50 779s and 10 778s. So if it’s a replacement program then they haven’t. If it’s an expansion program then they have. We know it’s a replacement program because as I think established in another thread QR keeps planes for about 10-15 years and then retirés them


In a vacuum yes but your not accounting for the nearly 40 A350Ks they have on order which are essentially the same size at the 777Ws. So many of the 777Xs were marked for expansion.

That’s a good point with regards to the A35Ks. So yeah you could look at them that way. I also strongly believe a lot of Qatar’s orders with Boeing don’t necessarily relate to their operational needs. Some are also to fulfil trade agreements between the US & Qatar and things like that
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20085
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:24 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
One of the reasons that Qatar is getting cold feet over taking the B779's is that their purchase plan called for moving on their relatively low-time B77W's to the 2nd-hand market for premium prices. The pandemic ruined that plan, at least for the next couple of years.

This is a fair argument. The number of 777-300ERs available is far more than supply. The 777-300ERSF is not ready yet to absorb capacity and then will select lower price candidates in good condition.

QR will stall in their fleet turnover plans.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:22 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Qatar has 7 B789's that were delivered in December 2019 and have not yet been put into revenue service. There is one more finished B789 that is sitting on the flight line at PAE since March waiting for Qatar to take delivery. The 7 aircraft making up the December 2019 deliveries had been stored at VCV until May, then they were sent to Doha where they were put back into storage there. It is true that the pandemic impacted Qatar's plans for these birds, but I wonder if they were just another "shiny thing" they ordered that they really did not need?


Was lucky enough to see 4 of those 789s (along with a UPS 748 (maintenance) and a FedEx A310F (retirement)) fly in on one day. Those Qatari birds flew to VCV for Q Suite installation, not storage due to COVID. They were then ferried to the old Doha airport (after Q Suite installation) where they are currently being stored. I do not know what they’ll do with the Qatar 789 currently sitting at PAE, possibly ferrying to a dedicated storage site as they said they wouldn’t take delivery of new aircraft, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: I think I read you’re post too fast, yes the plans were impacted by COVID, not that they were stored because of it. The original plan was for the 788s to go to Air Italy and the 789s to stay with Qatar, filling in as the 788s left. A332s were supposed to leave Air Italy. All that’s now been radically changed.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20085
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:52 pm

Is there any confirmation Airbus or Boeing agreed to these delays?

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1768
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
One of the reasons that Qatar is getting cold feet over taking the B779's is that their purchase plan called for moving on their relatively low-time B77W's to the 2nd-hand market for premium prices. The pandemic ruined that plan, at least for the next couple of years.



This is a fair argument. The number of 777-300ERs available is far more than supply. The 777-300ERSF is not ready yet to absorb capacity and then will select lower price candidates in good condition.

QR will stall in their fleet turnover plans.

Lightsaber



This statement makes no sense. Do you mean the supply available is more than demand for them? Or that the supply available is less than the demand?
Whatever
 
Mboyle1988
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:38 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:33 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
United1 wrote:

...Ladies and Gentlemen I'd like to welcome you aboard the newest member of the Qatar Airways fleet the Sukhoi Superjet 100 with 15 stop service to JFK..:)

AAB doesn't seem to understand there are only two aircraft manufacturers producing aircraft capable of operating in his network. While playing Boeing and Airbus off each other is a viable negotiating strategy this doesn't seem to be the best way to start off productive talks.


Except, sales do not work that way, ABB calls airbus and Boeing and says "We would like to order 50 widebodies" neither of the manufacturers are going to say "No, we don't want your business".


Except they can say that if they want because A & B are not two-a-penny office stationary suppliers. They are the only two duopolistic producers on the planet and QR is just one of many customers, and not a very good one at that. 100% cash upfront and list price + X% are the only way they would gt their hands on air frames, A & B hold the cards, not QR.


What I don't get is why AAB thinks he's in any position of strength. It's not like Qatar will allow the airline to fail and has the pockets so why have so much bother? AAB could just do the decent thing and come to a workable solution against the giants. Also this could get geopolitical. Sure people want Qatari gas, but it goes two ways in life, Qatar is expected to buy European and American planes amongst other imports. That's how the relationship goes. The government of Qatar could find itself getting the cold shoulder diplomatically very quickly when the economic impact starts to take toll, and not just QR losing 3rd and 4th freedom rights. We know Germany and others have had strong reservations about opening up to QR, this won't help the cause.


Always remember the golden rule. He with the gold rules.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:11 am

Revelation wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
United1 wrote:
AAB doesn't seem to understand there are only two aircraft manufacturers producing aircraft capable of operating in his network. While playing Boeing and Airbus off each other is a viable negotiating strategy this doesn't seem to be the best way to start off productive talks.

Except, sales do not work that way, ABB calls airbus and Boeing and says "We would like to order 50 widebodies" neither of the manufacturers are going to say "No, we don't want your business".

But there are exceptions to the exceptions. FR and MOL complain Airbus doesn't compete for their orders, apparently a bridge has been burned. IB seems to be personna non grata with Boeing after apparently accepting a bid on A340s that Boeing thought it had secured with 777s. There's a link in our IB A346 retirement thread on that. Seems IB won the battle but lost the war.

There seems to be a limit on how hard you can play the game. Complaining about carpeting is one thing, refusing to take years worth of orders is a big step up from that. We may be witnessing AAB crossing the line.


The IB story is key here. Of course A and B will sell AAB more planes when he wants them. But at what terms? AAB can burn them both now, then pay list for whatever he wants for the foreseeable future.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11128
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Qatar has 7 B789's that were delivered in December 2019 and have not yet been put into revenue service. There is one more finished B789 that is sitting on the flight line at PAE since March waiting for Qatar to take delivery. The 7 aircraft making up the December 2019 deliveries had been stored at VCV until May, then they were sent to Doha where they were put back into storage there. It is true that the pandemic impacted Qatar's plans for these birds, but I wonder if they were just another "shiny thing" they ordered that they really did not need?


Was lucky enough to see 4 of those 789s (along with a UPS 748 (maintenance) and a FedEx A310F (retirement)) fly in on one day. Those Qatari birds flew to VCV for Q Suite installation, not storage due to COVID. They were then ferried to the old Doha airport (after Q Suite installation) where they are currently being stored. I do not know what they’ll do with the Qatar 789 currently sitting at PAE, possibly ferrying to a dedicated storage site as they said they wouldn’t take delivery of new aircraft, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: I think I read you’re post too fast, yes the plans were impacted by COVID, not that they were stored because of it. The original plan was for the 788s to go to Air Italy and the 789s to stay with Qatar, filling in as the 788s left. A332s were supposed to leave Air Italy. All that’s now been radically changed.


There is also another QR 789 undergoing final assembly and another about to enter final assembly in the next week or so
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:38 am

qf789 wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Qatar has 7 B789's that were delivered in December 2019 and have not yet been put into revenue service. There is one more finished B789 that is sitting on the flight line at PAE since March waiting for Qatar to take delivery. The 7 aircraft making up the December 2019 deliveries had been stored at VCV until May, then they were sent to Doha where they were put back into storage there. It is true that the pandemic impacted Qatar's plans for these birds, but I wonder if they were just another "shiny thing" they ordered that they really did not need?


Was lucky enough to see 4 of those 789s (along with a UPS 748 (maintenance) and a FedEx A310F (retirement)) fly in on one day. Those Qatari birds flew to VCV for Q Suite installation, not storage due to COVID. They were then ferried to the old Doha airport (after Q Suite installation) where they are currently being stored. I do not know what they’ll do with the Qatar 789 currently sitting at PAE, possibly ferrying to a dedicated storage site as they said they wouldn’t take delivery of new aircraft, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: I think I read you’re post too fast, yes the plans were impacted by COVID, not that they were stored because of it. The original plan was for the 788s to go to Air Italy and the 789s to stay with Qatar, filling in as the 788s left. A332s were supposed to leave Air Italy. All that’s now been radically changed.


There is also another QR 789 undergoing final assembly and another about to enter final assembly in the next week or so


Wow, that means 3 QR 787s with no where to go, and AAB won't 'look good' (at least in his eyes) if he takes those 3 so soon after he stated he wouldn't be taking delivery....this might get interesting.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11128
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:53 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
qf789 wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:

Was lucky enough to see 4 of those 789s (along with a UPS 748 (maintenance) and a FedEx A310F (retirement)) fly in on one day. Those Qatari birds flew to VCV for Q Suite installation, not storage due to COVID. They were then ferried to the old Doha airport (after Q Suite installation) where they are currently being stored. I do not know what they’ll do with the Qatar 789 currently sitting at PAE, possibly ferrying to a dedicated storage site as they said they wouldn’t take delivery of new aircraft, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: I think I read you’re post too fast, yes the plans were impacted by COVID, not that they were stored because of it. The original plan was for the 788s to go to Air Italy and the 789s to stay with Qatar, filling in as the 788s left. A332s were supposed to leave Air Italy. All that’s now been radically changed.


There is also another QR 789 undergoing final assembly and another about to enter final assembly in the next week or so


Wow, that means 3 QR 787s with no where to go, and AAB won't 'look good' (at least in his eyes) if he takes those 3 so soon after he stated he wouldn't be taking delivery....this might get interesting.


Well it gets worse. There are 2 due to enter final assembly in August, 2 in September and 2 in October.

ATM there are 8 A350-1000's at TLS for QR, 2 are ready for delivery, a third has started flight testing while the other 5 have rolled out of final assembly and are in various stages of pre flight prep
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:59 am

qf789 wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
qf789 wrote:

There is also another QR 789 undergoing final assembly and another about to enter final assembly in the next week or so


Wow, that means 3 QR 787s with no where to go, and AAB won't 'look good' (at least in his eyes) if he takes those 3 so soon after he stated he wouldn't be taking delivery....this might get interesting.


Well it gets worse. There are 2 due to enter final assembly in August, 2 in September and 2 in October.

ATM there are 8 A350-1000's at TLS for QR, 2 are ready for delivery, a third has started flight testing while the other 5 have rolled out of final assembly and are in various stages of pre flight prep


Dang, I guess that there is the very good possibility that I may see some more Qatari (787s) at VCV. Although Airbus has storage areas/facilities that they use, one has to wonder what they and Boeing will do with all of the over-flow aircraft. Boeing has MWH, BFI, RNT, PAE (kinda), VCV, SKF, PDX (kinda) for storage. And with the 737MAX, most of those resources have been used up (although VCV has a bit more space now that DL is taking some aircraft out of retirement....).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11128
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:06 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
qf789 wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:

Wow, that means 3 QR 787s with no where to go, and AAB won't 'look good' (at least in his eyes) if he takes those 3 so soon after he stated he wouldn't be taking delivery....this might get interesting.


Well it gets worse. There are 2 due to enter final assembly in August, 2 in September and 2 in October.

ATM there are 8 A350-1000's at TLS for QR, 2 are ready for delivery, a third has started flight testing while the other 5 have rolled out of final assembly and are in various stages of pre flight prep


Dang, I guess that there is the very good possibility that I may see some more Qatari (787s) at VCV. Although Airbus has storage areas/facilities that they use, one has to wonder what they and Boeing will do with all of the over-flow aircraft. Boeing has MWH, BFI, RNT, PAE (kinda), VCV, SKF, PDX (kinda) for storage. And with the 737MAX, most of those resources have been used up (although VCV has a bit more space now that DL is taking some aircraft out of retirement....).


There have so far been 4 789's ferried from PAE to CHS for storage (2 Norwegian and 1 Hainan NTU plus 1 Vistara NTU, formerly Hainan NTU) , currently there are 26 787's on the flightline at CHS, 2 788's have been stored at PDX (El Al and Uzbekistan) and there are 19 787's on the flightline at PAE. So by the end of this month there are going to be around 50 787's just between PAE and CHS so its probably a matter of time before 787's end up at places like VCV, would think QR 787's would end there if they arent going to take delivery for a couple of years and probably longer
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20085
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:29 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
One of the reasons that Qatar is getting cold feet over taking the B779's is that their purchase plan called for moving on their relatively low-time B77W's to the 2nd-hand market for premium prices. The pandemic ruined that plan, at least for the next couple of years.



This is a fair argument. The number of 777-300ERs available is far more than supply. The 777-300ERSF is not ready yet to absorb capacity and then will select lower price candidates in good condition.

QR will stall in their fleet turnover plans.

Lightsaber



This statement makes no sense. Do you mean the supply available is more than demand for them? Or that the supply available is less than the demand?

Typo, there is too much supply of the 777-300ER. Actually, that is true of all widebodies as many airlines are differing deliveries of new widebodies.

QR had a strategy that relies on a good secondary market for their used aircraft.

In the past, QR received favorable terms as they generally kept their terms. This allowed rapid fleet turnover economically.

Now, good luck selling a used widebody. Any used widebody. The 777-300ERs were due to be rotated out of the fleet. QR won't be able to sell them for what was expected.

I thought the conclusion was obvious in that QR's fleet turnover plans are stalled.

It isn't just QR. The entire aircraft second hand market isn't functioning. Not even the scrapping as suddenly parts demand is down.

This has a long term impact.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Sjtstudios
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:25 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Imo they have overordered. 60 777Xs was always way too many.. At most they need half that. I expect some to be cancelled and/or converted to 787s.

Depends on how you look at it. They have 48 77Ws and 10 77Ls they’ve ordered 50 779s and 10 778s. So if it’s a replacement program then they haven’t. If it’s an expansion program then they have. We know it’s a replacement program because as I think established in another thread QR keeps planes for about 10-15 years and then retirés them


In a vacuum yes but your not accounting for the nearly 40 A350Ks they have on order which are essentially the same size at the 777Ws. So many of the 777Xs were marked for expansion.


You expand to new routes with smaller aircraft, not larger. Probably why the 787 and a350 do so well... Well, obviously you could increase frequency with two smaller aircraft, but besides that... all Qatar orders are part of the growth model and replacement cycles they operate within. Everything changes, not just the 777x business case.

The 777X is the 777w replacement for an airline like Qatar. More room for premium configurations, same passenger load. Obviously what you want when you’re a hub airline like Qatar. The a350k has the range and efficiency to be the moneymaker on thinner or more competitive routes, but also works as a 1:1 replacement in some circumstances.

If any cancellations occur, it will be spread evenly. Qatar always wants good faith or the upper hand in these circumstances.
 
pugman211
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:07 pm

I thought AAB said that anything that was already in assembly would be taken?
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2857
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:02 am

Qatar Airways expects to take delivery of its first 777X in 2025.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... irst-class
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19126
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:36 am

Ishrion wrote:
Qatar Airways expects to take delivery of its first 777X in 2025.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... irst-class


The article doesn't mention 2025 at all. It says 777X will be delayed until "at least 2022" (which is what this thread is all about). Where are you getting 2025 from?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5274
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:41 am

Sjtstudios wrote:



If any cancellations occur, it will be spread evenly. Qatar always wants good faith or the upper hand in these circumstances.

Obviously. I'm told that "Good Faith" is the nickname Airbus and Boeing have for Mr. Al Baker...
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 am

scbriml wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Qatar Airways expects to take delivery of its first 777X in 2025.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... irst-class


The article doesn't mention 2025 at all. It says 777X will be delayed until "at least 2022" (which is what this thread is all about). Where are you getting 2025 from?

The author changed the article. It was originally 2025
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:48 am

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... retirement

AAB says the 777s will be retired over the next 3 to 4 years and will be replaced by the 777-9s it what seems to be a 1 for 1 replacement. The 787-9s will replace the 787-8s and the A330s are all leaving now
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:16 am

That's a lots of 777s to send to retirements.

Maybe some will convert for cargo use?
 
DCA350
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:59 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qatar-boeing-777-retirement

AAB says the 777s will be retired over the next 3 to 4 years and will be replaced by the 777-9s it what seems to be a 1 for 1 replacement. The 787-9s will replace the 787-8s and the A330s are all leaving now


Well in this case I redact my earlier statement about too many 777Xs on order.. The second hand market is going to be flooded with 777s, I wonder how many will find a second home.
 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:49 pm

Qatar Airways is planning to retire its massive fleet of more then 50 777s in the next 3 to 4 years.

Qatar Airways will phase out its entire Boeing 777-300ER and 777-200LR fleet by 2024 in favour of new Boeing 777X jets as part of a ‘green modernisation’ push which will also see the last Airbus A380 scuppered by 2028.

“We are very conscious about our emissions and we are very keen to keep on introducing fuel-efficient aeroplanes,” Qatar Airways Group CEO His Excellency Akbar Al Baker tells Executive Traveller.

“We are retiring the entire (Airbus) A330 fleet now, we are retiring all the 777s over the next three to four years, we are retiring the A320 aeroplanes.”

Al Baker also said that the new-for-old swap would see its Boeing 787-9s eventually “replace the 787-8s”, although this is tied to a delayed delivery of the factory-fresh Dreamliners from at least 2022. “We plan to to reduce our emissions and have carbon-neutral growth over a period of time.”


A330 retirement was planned some time ago, but phasing out the 777 fleet is a new piece of information.

The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Qatar to retire all Boeing 777-300ERs “over the next 3-4 years"
Good moaning!
 
kaitak
Posts: 9913
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:55 pm

Are they all going to be replaced by the 777X?

Also, they mentioned that they are suspending deliveries of the 787s, but will the -9s they have received recently (after Q suite installment) be put into service?
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:56 pm

kaitak wrote:
Are they all going to be replaced by the 777X?

Also, they mentioned that they are suspending deliveries of the 787s, but will the -9s they have received recently (after Q suite installment) be put into service?

It seems like it yes
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20085
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:02 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Understatement. The 777-300ER second hand market just took a step down in value.

We should expect other airlines not to renew leases too. e.g., EK is doing some lease returns.

The timing of the 777-300ERSF is looking more and more brilliant.

No one should be smug on competing products. When this many good longhaul aircraft hit the market, there will be airlines that change plans and buy second hand.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5631
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:04 pm

The entire airline business is in for a very, very hard time for the foreseeable future; how long, nobody knows. It is an industry with intense competition and slim margins even in good times. Not all players are going to survive. Both Airbus and Boeing will out of necessity; the world cannot accept the idea that there will be only one supplier of large airliners, and there is no possibility of anyone else entering the field anytime soon. But as to airlines none are guaranteed. A very good way to be one of the ones that don’t survive is to aggravate both A&B, and AAB seems to be doing his best to do just that. They may both continue to sell to him, but will not give him their best deals or work with him when he has problems. That will effectively mean he is paying more for his planes than his competitors, and that will put him at a competitive disadvantage. And that may be enough to put him out of business, as the cutthroat competition of the past will be child’s play to what it is going to be in the near future.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 780
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Understatement. The 777-300ER second hand market just took a step down in value.

We should expect other airlines not to renew leases too. e.g., EK is doing some lease returns.

The timing of the 777-300ERSF is looking more and more brilliant.

No one should be smug on competing products. When this many good longhaul aircraft hit the market, there will be airlines that change plans and buy second hand.

Lightsaber


This gets me to thinking: If the feedstock of low-time B77W's gets large enough, could a potential, semi-independent re-engining program be feasible? The airframes are stout and built to go for 30 years, put a pair of GenX engines on a B77W and the "Greens" would be satisfied. Of course it would kick the B77X and A350 programs hard in the teeth if this were to happen.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1492
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Qatar Airways to retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:40 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Qatar Airways is planning to retire its massive fleet of more then 50 777s in the next 3 to 4 years.

Qatar Airways will phase out its entire Boeing 777-300ER and 777-200LR fleet by 2024 in favour of new Boeing 777X jets as part of a ‘green modernisation’ push which will also see the last Airbus A380 scuppered by 2028.

“We are very conscious about our emissions and we are very keen to keep on introducing fuel-efficient aeroplanes,” Qatar Airways Group CEO His Excellency Akbar Al Baker tells Executive Traveller.

“We are retiring the entire (Airbus) A330 fleet now, we are retiring all the 777s over the next three to four years, we are retiring the A320 aeroplanes.”

Al Baker also said that the new-for-old swap would see its Boeing 787-9s eventually “replace the 787-8s”, although this is tied to a delayed delivery of the factory-fresh Dreamliners from at least 2022. “We plan to to reduce our emissions and have carbon-neutral growth over a period of time.”


A330 retirement was planned some time ago, but phasing out the 777 fleet is a new piece of information.

The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Qatar to retire all Boeing 777-300ERs “over the next 3-4 years"

Nice spin, AAB. But spin nonetheless.
 
Jetport
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:21 pm

The announcement that Qatar plans to take their 777-9's and 777-8's as planned is big news. Bad day for all those predicting that the 777X would be cancelled. :stirthepot:
 
olle
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:55 pm

Jetport wrote:
The announcement that Qatar plans to take their 777-9's and 777-8's as planned is big news. Bad day for all those predicting that the 777X would be cancelled. :stirthepot:


But will they take all?

EK will they take all?

With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:10 pm

olle wrote:
Jetport wrote:
The announcement that Qatar plans to take their 777-9's and 777-8's as planned is big news. Bad day for all those predicting that the 777X would be cancelled. :stirthepot:


But will they take all?

EK will they take all?

With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....

As of now they both intend to. Nobody here has a crystal ball so only time will tell
 
smartplane
Posts: 1510
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:42 pm

SEPilot wrote:
But as to airlines none are guaranteed. A very good way to be one of the ones that don’t survive is to aggravate both A&B, and AAB seems to be doing his best to do just that. They may both continue to sell to him, but will not give him their best deals or work with him when he has problems. That will effectively mean he is paying more for his planes than his competitors, and that will put him at a competitive disadvantage. And that may be enough to put him out of business, as the cutthroat competition of the past will be child’s play to what it is going to be in the near future.

A & B know exactly where they stand with QR. And at least they are making milestone payments on ordered aircraft and engines. Ask the same questions at other airline shareholder meetings. How many have forced A & B to defer milestone payments, to avoid breaching covenants, and potentially losing the entire order book. Perhaps QR should be the template for high value capital purchases and deliveries, rather than mocking.
 
Sjtstudios
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:51 pm

olle wrote:
Jetport wrote:
The announcement that Qatar plans to take their 777-9's and 777-8's as planned is big news. Bad day for all those predicting that the 777X would be cancelled. :stirthepot:


But will they take all?

EK will they take all?

With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....


I recall an article basically saying that the 777-8 was demanded by the ME3 (or 2; Emirates&Qatar) as fully loaded trucks for routes like West Coast USA, South America, and some Asian routes. Basically for The longer envelope and high-hot takeoff. Curious to see if the 777-8 once at firm configuration can match the 777W in terms of cargo containers below and similar internal pax layouts. Or if the 777-9 can get close enough that a 787 or a350 carries those last remaining routes.

Boeing will not build all 300-something (or less) planes in 3-4 years. They would likely maintain a similarly slow 3-4 aircraft rate to now. If anything, that stretches it. Just like with the 747-8, backlogs taper in order to allow more time for orders and shifting of resources. 777XF will carry that line on and then 20-30 years from now maybe be gone. This industry actually moves slow. Boeing just celebrated 25 years of 767F, right on the heels of the NMA excitement. Realize also that Airbus will be delivering a320 NEOs for at least the next 10 years.
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:13 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Just for the record, Qatar is currently in the process of accepting 2 new A350s. Both planes can be seen at Airbus' delivery centre in Toulouse.

Image
https://twitter.com/THOFBOSS/status/1273637329455001601


I know it's off topic, but thank you for sharing the foto of that Airbus delivery center... I have never seen it! Now I have to see how it compares to Hamburg, Everett, Charleston, Renton,Birmingham
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
Pelly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:31 am

smartplane wrote:
A & B know exactly where they stand with QR. And at least they are making milestone payments on ordered aircraft and engines. Ask the same questions at other airline shareholder meetings. How many have forced A & B to defer milestone payments, to avoid breaching covenants, and potentially losing the entire order book. Perhaps QR should be the template for high value capital purchases and deliveries, rather than mocking.


It's funny how an urban legend about carpets delaying deliveries became a fact on A.net and something to mock QR's aircraft delivery process when industry trends are now heading towards the similar requirements when it comes to quality and snagging for aircraft deliveries. Also people who tie these issues to over ordering or other ulterior motives tend to overlook the large amount of smooth QR deliveries that happen on time, as an example QR took delivery of 25 777 between 2017 and 2019 in the midst of the political issues that cost it markets and access to airspace.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4323
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:43 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Imo they have overordered. 60 777Xs was always way too many.. At most they need half that. I expect some to be cancelled and/or converted to 787s.

Depends on how you look at it. They have 48 77Ws and 10 77Ls they’ve ordered 50 779s and 10 778s. So if it’s a replacement program then they haven’t. If it’s an expansion program then they have. We know it’s a replacement program because as I think established in another thread QR keeps planes for about 10-15 years and then retirés them


In a vacuum yes but your not accounting for the nearly 40 A350Ks they have on order which are essentially the same size at the 777Ws. So many of the 777Xs were marked for expansion.


:checkmark: They overordered everything. Too many 77Xs, too many A350-1000s, too many 787-9s, too many completely speculative MAXs and their neo order was a bit generous too. Only orders that did seem reasonably sized was the 787-8 and A350-900.

lightsaber wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Understatement. The 777-300ER second hand market just took a step down in value.


Will be interesting to watch for sure.

olle wrote:
With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....


That's what's going to be a killer for the 777X. Everyone wants to delay their 777-9s by ~3 years. In those interim three years Boeing has to keep the line running but with some ultra-low production rate which will burn through lots of cash. Making two widebodies a month isn't sustainable.

For airlines, if aircraft are in final assembly then they will be obliged at some point to take delivery which will presumably mean operating a very small 777-9 fleet for a few years until they're in a position to take the main tranche of their order. Unless of course the 777x delays give initial customers cause to postpone delivery by ~3 years (or whatever is required).
First to fly the 787-9
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:01 pm

zkojq wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. They have 48 77Ws and 10 77Ls they’ve ordered 50 779s and 10 778s. So if it’s a replacement program then they haven’t. If it’s an expansion program then they have. We know it’s a replacement program because as I think established in another thread QR keeps planes for about 10-15 years and then retirés them


In a vacuum yes but your not accounting for the nearly 40 A350Ks they have on order which are essentially the same size at the 777Ws. So many of the 777Xs were marked for expansion.


:checkmark: They overordered everything. Too many 77Xs, too many A350-1000s, too many 787-9s, too many completely speculative MAXs and their neo order was a bit generous too. Only orders that did seem reasonably sized was the 787-8 and A350-900.

lightsaber wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The second hand market will be flooded, no?

Understatement. The 777-300ER second hand market just took a step down in value.


Will be interesting to watch for sure.

olle wrote:
With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....


That's what's going to be a killer for the 777X. Everyone wants to delay their 777-9s by ~3 years. In those interim three years Boeing has to keep the line running but with some ultra-low production rate which will burn through lots of cash. Making two widebodies a month isn't sustainable.

For airlines, if aircraft are in final assembly then they will be obliged at some point to take delivery which will presumably mean operating a very small 777-9 fleet for a few years until they're in a position to take the main tranche of their order. Unless of course the 777x delays give initial customers cause to postpone delivery by ~3 years (or whatever is required).

I'd like you to list every single 777x customer and tell me where they said they want to delay their 777-9 by 3 years not some but all, if you don't have that then please edit this post. I'll wait..

I get your point, but you don't have to make the point with exaggerations.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:09 pm

Opus99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

In a vacuum yes but your not accounting for the nearly 40 A350Ks they have on order which are essentially the same size at the 777Ws. So many of the 777Xs were marked for expansion.


:checkmark: They overordered everything. Too many 77Xs, too many A350-1000s, too many 787-9s, too many completely speculative MAXs and their neo order was a bit generous too. Only orders that did seem reasonably sized was the 787-8 and A350-900.

lightsaber wrote:
Understatement. The 777-300ER second hand market just took a step down in value.


Will be interesting to watch for sure.

olle wrote:
With 778 more or less dead in the market if not Boeing makes an 778F, the 779 need to support a full line.

The 787 and 350 lines might be the only WB with healthy backlogs in 3-4 years from now.

The 77X saga sounds too similar to A380. It had the twin tower down turn and 77X got the Covid....


That's what's going to be a killer for the 777X. Everyone wants to delay their 777-9s by ~3 years. In those interim three years Boeing has to keep the line running but with some ultra-low production rate which will burn through lots of cash. Making two widebodies a month isn't sustainable.

For airlines, if aircraft are in final assembly then they will be obliged at some point to take delivery which will presumably mean operating a very small 777-9 fleet for a few years until they're in a position to take the main tranche of their order. Unless of course the 777x delays give initial customers cause to postpone delivery by ~3 years (or whatever is required).

I'd like you to list every single 777x customer and tell me where they said they want to delay their 777-9 by 3 years not some but all, if you don't have that then please edit this post. I'll wait..

I get your point, but you don't have to make the point with exaggerations.

All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:13 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:

:checkmark: They overordered everything. Too many 77Xs, too many A350-1000s, too many 787-9s, too many completely speculative MAXs and their neo order was a bit generous too. Only orders that did seem reasonably sized was the 787-8 and A350-900.



Will be interesting to watch for sure.



That's what's going to be a killer for the 777X. Everyone wants to delay their 777-9s by ~3 years. In those interim three years Boeing has to keep the line running but with some ultra-low production rate which will burn through lots of cash. Making two widebodies a month isn't sustainable.

For airlines, if aircraft are in final assembly then they will be obliged at some point to take delivery which will presumably mean operating a very small 777-9 fleet for a few years until they're in a position to take the main tranche of their order. Unless of course the 777x delays give initial customers cause to postpone delivery by ~3 years (or whatever is required).

I'd like you to list every single 777x customer and tell me where they said they want to delay their 777-9 by 3 years not some but all, if you don't have that then please edit this post. I'll wait..

I get your point, but you don't have to make the point with exaggerations.

All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book

okay so the answer is one 1 has deferred by 3 years and not all? which is my point Like I've said before I understand people's points and they are valid, however, we are six months into this pandemic I'm still waiting for the cancellations that people were so sure the 777x order book will split in half...I'm still waiting, I would assume the later you leave the cancellation the more expensive it becomes, so maybe we will see them soon?
Last edited by Opus99 on Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:21 pm

Opus99 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I'd like you to list every single 777x customer and tell me where they said they want to delay their 777-9 by 3 years not some but all, if you don't have that then please edit this post. I'll wait..

I get your point, but you don't have to make the point with exaggerations.

All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book

if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:31 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book

if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.

I get your point and it makes sense, another way I look at is, the 77W had less orders than the 777-9 before its entry into service and we all know how that turned out. what also plagues a lot of previous aircraft's that haven't done well for example the 747-8 or the A380 is that their performance figures ended up not being that great. So a lot of the future on the 777-9 will depend on how it performs.

anyway let me not digress any further from the topic.
 
Opus99
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:32 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book

if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.

I get your point and it makes sense, another way I look at is, the 77W had less orders than the 777-9 before its entry into service and we all know how that turned out. what also plagues a lot of previous aircraft's that haven't done well for example the 747-8 or the A380 is that their performance figures ended up not being that great. So a lot of the future on the 777-9 will depend on how it performs.

anyway let me not digress any further from the topic.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4323
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:02 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
All Nippon Airways. deferring aircraft length of deferral unknown
British Airways. Already deferred orders to 2023 to regulate capacity growth
Cathay Pacific.Nothing confirmed rumored to be looking to swap for 78J's
Emirates.unclear much more interested in a350/787 then 777x and their the biggest customer
Etihad Airways.Significant issues before covid rumored to defer but there fleet plan is all over the map so who knows
Lufthansa.Rumored to be converted to freight again nothing confirmed
Qatar Airways. see above
Singapore Airlines.Deferred till 2022
Its not all deferred till 2023 but its not a strong order book

if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.


You're absolutely right but you forgot that no lessors have ordered the 777X. And with not a lot of customers (therefore liquidity) it's hard to see any lessors offering Sale and Lease Back financing at any reasonable rate. These kind of scenarios where an airline customer wants to postpone their order and the lessor might be stuck with an aircraft that they need to place in the short term is exactly what lessors are fearful of.
First to fly the 787-9
 
ewt340
Posts: 1272
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:44 am

Opus99 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.

I get your point and it makes sense, another way I look at is, the 77W had less orders than the 777-9 before its entry into service and we all know how that turned out. what also plagues a lot of previous aircraft's that haven't done well for example the 747-8 or the A380 is that their performance figures ended up not being that great. So a lot of the future on the 777-9 will depend on how it performs.

anyway let me not digress any further from the topic.


They are in different position though. The trend has been airlines are going for smaller widebodies and focusing on profitability and frequency rather than large capacity. 77W fit into the market nicely as replacement for B747. Both B777X variants didn't have a shoe to fill. The -8 would ended up like -200LR. And the -9 is way too big for many airlines to fill all year round. Investment on aircraft like B787-10 and A350-900/-1000 seems to be preferable for most part.

As for Qatar, it doesn't seems like they actually need B777X. Only selected routes like LHR and SYD would require VLA. Their big orders for 60 B777X seems a bit overload for them.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:31 am

zkojq wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
if its not all by 3 years then why are you sharing what we already know?

Because most of it looks like its going to be converted which is worse for the program, at the very least deferred orders don't freak creditors and lessors out like being the last one holding the bag on a very niech aircraft look at the losses 717, a380, and now potentially 777X lessors might be in for. Aircraft that can't develop a suitably used market suffer terribly and often end up in early retirement, a lot of A330 neos are likely to be in that boat and will probably be picked up cheap by Delta for the same reason. Thats what kills aircraft not a unfortunate timing in the cycle.


You're absolutely right but you forgot that no lessors have ordered the 777X. And with not a lot of customers (therefore liquidity) it's hard to see any lessors offering Sale and Lease Back financing at any reasonable rate. These kind of scenarios where an airline customer wants to postpone their order and the lessor might be stuck with an aircraft that they need to place in the short term is exactly what lessors are fearful of.

True but financing is also going to be hard for the 777X then either the a350 or 777X both of which have more developed secondary markets with liquidity and with airlines going to be in a cash crunch for the next few years that's also going to hurt the program. The 777X is at a very real risk of ending up in a spiral where there is no aftermarket, therefore, it's hard to finance and sale and leaseback options don't exist, therefore it's even less likely to get ordered etc. Its a cycle that has hurt programs in the past, and a large part of the Russian aircraft manufacturers issues.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11128
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Qatar CEO: no new Airbus or Boeing deliveries until 2022

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:56 am

According to the following Qatar will put 787-9's into service next year.

A321neo's and LR's will begin arriving in 2022

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ness-class
Forum Moderator
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3239
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

QR DOH-YYZ eff. July 4, 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 pm

new bilateral agreed upon? Qatar gov't saying, hey, we flew Canadians home over the past few months give us more access?

3x weekly flights DOH-YYZ starting this week with 359 equip. (this will complement 4x YUL service)

https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-r ... 0000001105
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: QR DOH-YYZ eff. July 4, 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 pm

Fake news - QR only received approval to operate in July, yet they are spinning the story to seem like this is a new route.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4508
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

Re: QR DOH-YYZ eff. July 4, 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
Fake news - QR only received approval to operate in July, yet they are spinning the story to seem like this is a new route.

Interesting. Can your direct me to somewhere stating that it is July only?

YOWza

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos