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A319XLR
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How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:36 pm

I know this was an historic consideration (Russian airlines supporting Russian aircraft industry, many European Legacies ordering Airbus in the 90's, same for US carrier and Boeing), but how much weight does 787 wing production in Japan have on ANA and JAL ordering the number they have, for example?

Here in the UK BA's A380/A35K order got some good press at the time because of wing production in the UK.

Is there any good sense in being seen as supporting domestic industries or does it come down to economics at the end of the day? (I know this is largely focussed on European, US carriers. I know the recent COMAC orders from Chinese majors. I don't want to make this political)

Thoughts?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:21 pm

U.S. carriers don't order Boeing to support domestic jobs. Boeing is traditionally the country's largest exporter, and an important source of jobs regionally, but in the scope of U.S. GDP it rounds down to nothing. It's a lot less than Apple App Store purchases, frankly.

Your very question suggests that carriers engage in sub-optimal behavior - buying aircraft for political scores instead of their own financial/operating needs. Somebody has to pay for that market inefficiency.
 
catiii
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:23 am

The only domestic jobs US carriers care about when they order airplanes are the jobs at their own carrier. Period.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:13 am

None that plan on making a profit
 
Varsity1
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:18 am

Historically Boeing has been harder on credit terms for US airlines than Airbus has. The Boeing nationalism factor is no more than a coincidence that airlines attempt to use for marketing.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:36 am

It varies,

In the very old days, you could say that airlines just stuck with a manufacturer. e.g. SAS used Douglas, so did Finnair, Swissair (for the most part) and KLM. Whereas AF, and LH used Boeing. BA had a "buy British policy" which meant that as a state owned carrier, they more or less had to buy a British built aircraft if it was available in that group. Hence the VC-10, Trident (instead of B727). They got the B747's because no other British competitor was available, also, the L-1011's were made using only Rolls-Royce engines.

As the author said, in the 90's and also 00's, I would say that airlines ordered aircraft to support jobs in some way or under "political influence".

e.g. AF got rid of their B737's to go all Airbus, LH went for Airbus for the short-haul, although they kept the B737's around sometime. BA did the same.

But it also is about what kind of relationship the airlines has had with the manufacturers in the past. Of course the really large ones want to keep a healthy relationship with both. Here I do not mean LCC's, but airlines that need several types in their fleet due to flying both short- and long-haul.

If my memory serves me correct, both AA and DL had at one time, "exclusive rights" with Boeing, meaning they got lower prices by purchasing only their aircraft. Ironically, both are today large Airbus customers. DL had not had Airbus in their inventories for a long time until they acquired/merged with NW in the 2000's. They found out that the A330's were great aircraft and the A320 family did their job as well. AA had a small fleet of A300's, then got a hold of U.S. Airways and suddenly became a huge Airbus customer.

With all these threats of taxes/tolls/tariffs,manufacturers have gotten creative, Bombardier joined up with Airbus, who has a plant in Mobile, Alabama. Of course not all Airbus for the U.S. market are produced there, but it circumvents the tax issues.

Lastly, with regards to JAL ordering the B787, it could be that the wings are produced in Japan, then again, JAL has always been a very loyal Boeing and Douglas customer. That is primarily what they used. they only just recently started operating Airbus aircraft again after a hiatus from operating the A300-600's briefly when they took over TOA Domestic Airlines I believe.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:16 am

Generally, European airlines go with Airbus, while American airlines go with Boeing. The UK seems to back Boeing a lot (for example, IAG was all for the MAX last year) and a similar sentiment lies in Korea and Japan. Most of the rest of the world seems to like Airbus (though it may be a sign of the cost efficiency of some of Airbus A3 products), with regional aircraft being popular in the CIS and East Asia.

But there's a lot more to the story. As I said, a lot of the products Airbus produces tend to be more cost effective (hence the whole saga of the Boeing MAX) and picked up by developing countries, legacy carriers looking to save money and low cost airlines, along with image based aircraft like concorde and A380. Boeing also seems to be more associated with long range aircraft (thanks to their famous 747) though this has also changed recently (Boeing is on a downward trajectory while Airbus on an up).
 
GLANKG
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 am

Blimey Air France has 25 Boeing 777-200ER, 43 Boeing 777-300ER and 9 Boeing 787-9 with one on order.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:28 am

airhansa wrote:
Generally, European airlines go with Airbus, while American airlines go with Boeing. The UK seems to back Boeing a lot (for example, IAG was all for the MAX last year) and a similar sentiment lies in Korea and Japan. Most of the rest of the world seems to like Airbus (though it may be a sign of the cost efficiency of some of Airbus A3 products), with regional aircraft being popular in the CIS and East Asia.

But there's a lot more to the story. As I said, a lot of the products Airbus produces tend to be more cost effective (hence the whole saga of the Boeing MAX) and picked up by developing countries, legacy carriers looking to save money and low cost airlines, along with image based aircraft like concorde and A380. Boeing also seems to be more associated with long range aircraft (thanks to their famous 747) though this has also changed recently (Boeing is on a downward trajectory while Airbus on an up).


Nearly every sentence in this is utterly ridiculous. LH flies 744s, 748s, and has ordered 779s. In the relatively recent past, it also flew 737s and 742s. Further back, it flew DC-10s and 727s. KLM flies 787s, 747s, and historically MD-11s and DC10s. BA, as you yourself note, flies many Boeing models. Swiss flies 777s, and its predecessor 747s and MD11s.

Boeing associated with long-range aircraft? Hello, the 737 and its awful derivatives? The A330, A340, and A380?

More Airbii in developing countries? I suppose you'd have to sit down and count to come up with a correlation, but I see no shortages of Boeing products in places like Indonesia, Russia, India, etc.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:49 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
airhansa wrote:
Generally, European airlines go with Airbus, while American airlines go with Boeing. The UK seems to back Boeing a lot (for example, IAG was all for the MAX last year) and a similar sentiment lies in Korea and Japan. Most of the rest of the world seems to like Airbus (though it may be a sign of the cost efficiency of some of Airbus A3 products), with regional aircraft being popular in the CIS and East Asia.

But there's a lot more to the story. As I said, a lot of the products Airbus produces tend to be more cost effective (hence the whole saga of the Boeing MAX) and picked up by developing countries, legacy carriers looking to save money and low cost airlines, along with image based aircraft like concorde and A380. Boeing also seems to be more associated with long range aircraft (thanks to their famous 747) though this has also changed recently (Boeing is on a downward trajectory while Airbus on an up).


Nearly every sentence in this is utterly ridiculous. LH flies 744s, 748s, and has ordered 779s. In the relatively recent past, it also flew 737s and 742s. Further back, it flew DC-10s and 727s. KLM flies 787s, 747s, and historically MD-11s and DC10s. BA, as you yourself note, flies many Boeing models. Swiss flies 777s, and its predecessor 747s and MD11s.

Boeing associated with long-range aircraft? Hello, the 737 and its awful derivatives? The A330, A340, and A380?

More Airbii in developing countries? I suppose you'd have to sit down and count to come up with a correlation, but I see no shortages of Boeing products in places like Indonesia, Russia, India, etc.


I didn't say that those airlines exclusively flew Airbus, but they do tend be more heavily Airbus than their American counterparts.

Airbus produce more cost effective planes and hence do better in developing countries where low cost airlines and cost-conscious airlines are the king. The whole debacle over the Boeing MAX was down to the lack of cost effective planes among the Boeing fleet - even Southwest wanted to drop Boeing for Airbus.
 
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DBCoop3r
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm

There is only the smallest hint to this. I think the Euro carriers only ordered a token amount of the A380 out of political pressure (tho I think BA would have taken more if it weren't for the price of the aircraft), otherwise all the big carriers compete Boeing vs Airbus ruthlessly, as they should.

IMO, the only carrier that feels and obligation to get the local product is AS, I think they will take the order of A321NEOs they inherited from VS, but after that it's back to Boeing.
 
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Stitch
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:29 pm

A319XLR wrote:
Is there any good sense in being seen as supporting domestic industries or does it come down to economics at the end of the day?


It has been claimed by some on this forum that Korean Air Lines purchased the 747-8 (passenger and freighter) in part because KAL Aerospace manufactures a small percentage of the parts used by the plane. I assume the same would be true for the 787 (they make the wingtips) and the 777 (wingtips and flap fairings).
 
smartplane
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:34 pm

Twenty plus decades ago, it took as long to negotiate offsets as it did the aircraft order. And then there was the monitoring and enforcement overhead.

Now, Government shareholdings in airlines are less common, and offsets generate scrutiny, usually by the unsuccessful OEM, and have been criticised by the WTO.

Still happens with military contracts, but less obvious.
 
trex8
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Re: How many airlines order aircraft to support domestic jobs?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:42 pm

Not strictly an order for domestic work but a quid pro quo where 3 decades ago the Taiwan government CAA ordered a batch of 744s and MD11s to reduce Taiwans trade deficit with the US and leased them to CI who then eventually purchased them at prices which years later BR sued the Taiwan government and CI over what they felt was a non commercial advantage gvien to CI.

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