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cpl22586
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:16 pm

F27500 wrote:
B6 completely halted HPN (White Plains, NY) at the outset of the covid situation when they were consolidating their NYC operations to just JFK and EWR.

Any idea when (and hopefully not "if") the HPN service starts again ?


Last I saw was a July 1st startup for PVD; LGA, HPN, SWF; BWI; SJC; BUR and ONT
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:33 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Quarantine ends July 7th
https://wdwnt.com/2020/06/cdc-announces ... tate-area/

EWR-JAX starting July 23rd isn't impacted

The quarantine definitely has had some impact on NY- Florida travel



Large corporate flying is safe, as New Jersey corporates (and non JFK traffic) will want the expansive network UA has from EWR. It is the smaller & mid-sized accounts that B6 could likely attack.

B6 has had success with Mint on highly competitive routes


The Florida quarantine for people from the Tri-State area has been extended indefinitely, which is ridiculous as we've bent the curve hard in New Jersey and New York. Florida on the other hand is on a upward trajectory.


I flew EWR-MCO back in May. There was nothing but a little sign saying to quarantine. The Tri-state area should be more worried about Floridians at this point!



Im flying NYC to Florida all the time. Right thru the pandemic.

From May 1 on...full full full.

These people telling you that nobody is flying there… They don’t know what they’re talking about

You couldn’t non-rev out of any New York City airport to any Florida airport tomorrow if you wanted.

Are there less passengers overall? yes. But there are less flights and those flights are capped due to the social distancing

Upon arrival in Florida they put on what I like to call the “dog and pony show.”

You clap and jump and smile and you are quickly released to freedom. End of show.

And I’m not the only person that has realized that

NY-Florida right now is a winner. Perhaps the only winner.

Smart move
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:38 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
enilria wrote:
I read this as caused by the Florida quarantine on NYC visitors creating surplus airplanes for other routes. You can see they are adding NYC to vacation destinations not locked down to New Yorkers like Florida and Florida to other cities like PIT/CLE. This is more of the NK/F9 business model.



The Florida "quarantine" is absolutely MEANINGLESS. You really think even a single person followed it? You scribble some gibberish on a form and hand it to a half awake national guardsman as you stroll off the jet bridge and thats the last anyone thinks about it. Totally irrelevant.


Exactly there is no way there's man power to follow people around. The gates to LGA/JFK for AA have been packed at MIA. People are coming and going between NYC and Florida.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:38 pm

Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning
 
FSDan
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:39 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Wow, B6 really going after UA at EWR and DL at JFK. They are really pushing for the title of New York’s hometown airline.


They already have that title - they're the only major airline based in NYC!

Regarding the fights B6 is picking with this announcement, there's been a lot of focus on UA at EWR and DL at MSP/DTW. However, I'd say beefing up their PHL-Florida presence is a pretty direct attack on AA as well. Each legacy gets some unwanted competition with this announcement.
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as739x
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:48 pm

KFTG wrote:
WN eating UAs lunch at DEN, now B6 at EWR? Smisek I mean Kirby better wise up.


Do you have a link to the numbers showing this?
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:52 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I'm surprised at EWR-PHX at 2 daily, B6 barely runs 1 daily on JFK-PHX.


I am really curious as to the timings of the 2 flights. The later of two will almost certainly be timed to do a red-eye turn back to the east coast so that would make late evening departure from EWR. The earlier of the flights is really anyone's guess at this point. It is odd that they went with 2x PHX-EWR vs 2x PHX-JFK. There is more competition on the EWR route vs the JFK route.



I can some of these new transcon routes being flown with their 220s instead of their 320/321s.
 
joeblow10
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:58 pm

as739x wrote:
KFTG wrote:
WN eating UAs lunch at DEN, now B6 at EWR? Smisek I mean Kirby better wise up.


Do you have a link to the numbers showing this?


WN is back at 90% of its pre COVID capacity (flights, not seats) in DEN starting in July. Pretty much eating UA's lunch imo
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:02 pm

Why not connect some of the dots in flyover country they've avoided for years? WN just bailed on BOS-CMH, which would open the door for them.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:03 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
enilria wrote:
I read this as caused by the Florida quarantine on NYC visitors creating surplus airplanes for other routes. You can see they are adding NYC to vacation destinations not locked down to New Yorkers like Florida and Florida to other cities like PIT/CLE. This is more of the NK/F9 business model.



The Florida "quarantine" is absolutely MEANINGLESS. You really think even a single person followed it? You scribble some gibberish on a form and hand it to a half awake national guardsman as you stroll off the jet bridge and thats the last anyone thinks about it. Totally irrelevant.


Exactly there is no way there's man power to follow people around. The gates to LGA/JFK for AA have been packed at MIA. People are coming and going between NYC and Florida.


Just like most quarantine restrictions, they are not very enforceable. It definitely discouraged a sizable amount of passengers, given how much airlines reduced capacity.

AA's NYC-MIA is at 6-7 flights right now compared to the normal 25ish. Shouldn't be surprising that flights are close to the load factor cap, given systemwide load factors are in the 60s.

joeblow10 wrote:
as739x wrote:
KFTG wrote:
WN eating UAs lunch at DEN, now B6 at EWR? Smisek I mean Kirby better wise up.


Do you have a link to the numbers showing this?


WN is back at 90% of its pre COVID capacity (flights, not seats) in DEN starting in July. Pretty much eating UA's lunch imo


Compared to UA operating under 40% of DEN, I might add
https://twitter.com/AilevonPacific/stat ... 64737?s=20

UA is operating the least % of its July schedule out of the US carriers by a wide margin
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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B752OS
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:04 pm

It'll be interesting to see how quickly they make FLL-SEA and FLL-PDX at lest daily.
 
Brandon757
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:04 pm

Happy to see DFW get another B6 flight. Hope FLL is in the cards for them one day from here.
 
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varsity
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:05 pm

I'm wondering who is not returning to clear the slots and gate availability? If they're using AC's two gates in Pier 1 that is not going to last, and I thought the allocations in T1 had already been worked out, 100% CUTE but based on current percentage of capacity. As it is you had MCO flights out of Pier 3 (gate 21?).
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tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:07 pm

" So if they want to expand at EWR, they need to add more flights. I'd love to see LAX or SFO, but not sure if they have enough mint aircraft around for even 4x on EWR-LAX. Aside from that, stuff like PUJ/MBJ/KIN/CUN/AUA/BGI(more than 1x weekly) all seem to things they can try internationally. And domestically, I think leisure places and large WN stations are all places they can target like MSY/AUS/LAS/SAN and also places they have large enough presence like BUF/JAX/CHS/ACK."
- I got a lot of these EWR markets right. Basically, only missed PHX/SRQ.

I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned BOS up to this point. 30 new routes and nothing from BOS. There is a reason for that.

BOS business markets are slow to come back. They are doing just a fraction of the schedule to business markets like NYC/DC/Chicago/Philly compared to pre-COVID. DL is not in a hurry to add back BOS business routes, so JetBlue can take its time adding back capacity to those markets. Major shift of its focus back to NYC.

What have we seen in NYC?
DL slow to add back LGA due to non-existent corporate demand. Even slower adding back JFK due to collapsed international demand. No more 717s. Apparently
AA giving up a lot of slots at JFK and effectively dehubbing it.
UA slowly to add back EWR capacity and have minimal presence at LGA
No WN to worry about at EWR and JFK
No ULCC to worry about at JFK

Everything has opened up for B6 at NYC. DTW/MSP/DFW is less about picking a fight with DL in JFK-DTW/MSP and more about completing their network at JFK. I've been harping on them about adding these markets for a while now.

After they add these 3 markets and enter Europe, they are basically just missing CLT in their network. The biggest knock against B6 in NYC has always been that they don't fly to enough places. Especially for securing corporate contracts and now they will at least have token presence everywhere. If they can just get a few more LGA slots, then they can enter LGA-ORD and be a legitimate competitor in the business market to the legacy carriers. All this could be accomplished by 2022. A big difference compared to pre-COVID when they are boxed in at NYC with limited growth areas. They were just going to lose out more and more DL in NYC over time. It's a much bigger deal to DL than just JFK-DTW/MSP. Better to play offensive against DL at NYC and forcing DL to add back JFK quickly rather than play defensively at BOS like they were doing pre-COVID.

As for EWR, these are obvious moves for them to do. I'm just surprised they did not add more island stuff. I would imagine once they are certain the islands are not closing down traffic again, they will start adding stuff like PUJ/MBJ/CUN/AUA. I think they've been planning this move for a while. They got the extra space with new terminal 1 opening up and WN not around to fight for gates. This looks like they are aiming at minimum a 60 flight operation. Maybe they can go even higher than that. UA is going to take a while to get back to over 400 flights. JetBlue has until at least 2022 to add flights without worrying that NY airspace will be jammed up again.

Goal here for JetBlue should be a legitimate 3rd option for ff and businesses in NY area and a legitimate 2nd option for ff and businesses in NJ area. Looks like they are even thinking of moving into PA, which is probably a terrible idea.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:10 pm

FSDan wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Wow, B6 really going after UA at EWR and DL at JFK. They are really pushing for the title of New York’s hometown airline.


They already have that title - they're the only major airline based in NYC!


PANYNJ airports NYC, passenger traffic 12-months ending 9/19:

UA, 32.7 million
DL, 32.5 million
B6, 18.0 million
AA, 16.7 million
and to show the gap to #5, WN, 4.2 million

The tag 'Hometown airline' doesn't pay the bills.

https://old.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-tra ... T_2019.pdf
 
catiii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Wow, B6 really going after UA at EWR and DL at JFK. They are really pushing for the title of New York’s hometown airline.


They already have that title - they're the only major airline based in NYC!


PANYNJ airports NYC, passenger traffic 12-months ending 9/19:

UA, 32.7 million
DL, 32.5 million
B6, 18.0 million
AA, 16.7 million
and to show the gap to #5, WN, 4.2 million

The tag 'Hometown airline' doesn't pay the bills.

https://old.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-tra ... T_2019.pdf


Actually it does

Because one, it is factually correct

And two, they have a license from New York State to actually market with the state logo

So believe me, it pays a lot of the bills for Jetblue
 
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STT757
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:16 pm

catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.


it's not all gloom and doom, United has more Widebody aircraft than any other US carrier and not a lot of International routes for them right now. They can 787-10 JetBlue to death on the Trans-cons.
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FCOTSTW
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
UA isn't going to like Mint on EWR-LAX/SFO, plus all the new EWR flying.

Going right at DL as well with JFK-DTW/MSP

Interesting to watch....


Very much so. Years ago they entered the DTW-BOS market and broke DL monopoly. Fares went from $ 400 / $ 500 R/T to $ 200.
Still, NYC is a different market, with DL and AA to JFK, UA to EWR, and NK playing the underdog to LGA. It will be interesting,
 
speedbird2263
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:25 pm

Seems my armchair musings weren't so far off the mark. I see most of the EWR adds as very strategic and set up to succeed exceedingly well, especially as it pertains to the Mint product. Interesting times ahead, SEA-FLL with a strong cruise market would work even better but with slow recovery in that industry it will be interesting to watch its performance.
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tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:30 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
[
I am really curious as to the timings of the 2 flights. The later of two will almost certainly be timed to do a red-eye turn back to the east coast so that would make late evening departure from EWR. The earlier of the flights is really anyone's guess at this point. It is odd that they went with 2x PHX-EWR vs 2x PHX-JFK. There is more competition on the EWR route vs the JFK route.

I can some of these new transcon routes being flown with their 220s instead of their 320/321s.

That was before COVID. They are probably expecting UA to be slow adding back the number of flights on EWR-PHX. They are probably thinking AA will shrink at PHX due to WN pressure and significantly reduce if not drop EWR-PHX. I doubt either DL/AA will dramatically cut back JFK-PHX. For july, AA is already back to 3x daily on JFK-PHX, whereas EWR-PHX only has 5x weekly by UA.

Midwestindy wrote:
WN is back at 90% of its pre COVID capacity (flights, not seats) in DEN starting in July. Pretty much eating UA's lunch imo


Compared to UA operating under 40% of DEN, I might add
https://twitter.com/AilevonPacific/stat ... 64737?s=20

UA is operating the least % of its July schedule out of the US carriers by a wide margin[/quote]
Yep, another part of B6 calculus would be that UA is getting attacked in a lot of places by WN and also feeling a lot of ULCC pressure at EWR. So there will be less retaliation from them at this time. UA is clearly bringing back their middle of the country hubs and even IAD faster than EWR at this point.

varsity wrote:
I'm wondering who is not returning to clear the slots and gate availability? If they're using AC's two gates in Pier 1 that is not going to last, and I thought the allocations in T1 had already been worked out, 100% CUTE but based on current percentage of capacity. As it is you had MCO flights out of Pier 3 (gate 21?).

I believe they already had 5 or 6 at EWR pre-COVID. They were able to get more gates toward end of last year. That's what allowed them to schedule 36 flights a day this April/May before COVID happened. BOS-EWR isn't going to return to pre-COVID capacity anytime soon. EWR-Florida is likely to be below pre-COVID capacity for a few more months. So even if they don't get more gates, 6 gates should fit in these flights with no problem. It does look like they have much larger ambition for that. I'm assuming eventually EWR mint will increase over time as NYC-LAX/SFO market comes back, so they are going to be adding 15 to 20 flights from these announced cities. I'd imagine most of them stick around. On top of that, they are likely to add some island flying. That alone will bring them to about 60 flights on peak days. I'd imagine they will be looking to get preferential access to at least 8 gates at T1.

FSDan wrote:
Regarding the fights B6 is picking with this announcement, there's been a lot of focus on UA at EWR and DL at MSP/DTW. However, I'd say beefing up their PHL-Florida presence is a pretty direct attack on AA as well. Each legacy gets some unwanted competition with this announcement.

That's the part that really surprised me. It seems a great way to burn money to get in between AA and 2 ULCCs in some of these PHL-Florida markets. I think PHL-SJU will be able to stick but not sure about other stuff they are adding.

I can sort of get the logic here with PIT/PHL. They are making a huge play for NJ. By adding to both PHL and PIT, it will allow them to also capture some customers in PA. I'm just not sure how much of that will stick around once BOS business markets come back.

CobaltScar wrote:
Looks like a final push to throw Alaska out of FLL too. All great adds. They really need to make EWR a co terminal and continue a huge push into it.

Another one I'm surprised people missed. This is a huge attack on AS.

They are basically looking to push AS off MCO-SFO, EWR-LAX/SFO/SAN. Given what we've seen from AS in the cali-transcon market, I think there is a good shot they will be able to do that.

And adding PDX-FLL before AS and adding SEA-FLL.

CLE-RSW and ORD-PBI seem like real oddballs here.
Last edited by tphuang on Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Wow, B6 really going after UA at EWR and DL at JFK. They are really pushing for the title of New York’s hometown airline.


They already have that title - they're the only major airline based in NYC!


PANYNJ airports NYC, passenger traffic 12-months ending 9/19:

UA, 32.7 million
DL, 32.5 million
B6, 18.0 million
AA, 16.7 million
and to show the gap to #5, WN, 4.2 million

The tag 'Hometown airline' doesn't pay the bills.

https://old.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-tra ... T_2019.pdf


UA and DL also have major wide-body and long-haul networks out of New York. B6 only has narrow-body aircraft, but has done enough damage to basically push AA to near irrelevance at JFK. The idea here is that B6 could re-fit more 321s with Mint, while the 32Qs (excluding the LR frames) are all core, and then make more routes Mint (basically an international-style J) where B6 could do damage to the legacies, like ORD. AA will likely retrench to PHL, CLT, MIA, and DFW.
 
alfa164
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:46 pm

good2go wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Going right at DL as well with JFK-DTW/MSP Interesting to watch....

Conspicuously, they did not add JFK-ATL.

JFK-ATL already exists. And has continued during COVID.


Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL
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clrd4t8koff
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:48 pm

x1234 wrote:
FINALLY DTW-JFK so I can use JFK as a gateway to Europe!


Why on earth would you be excited to use JFK as a gateway to Europe when the only airline you can easily connect to @ JFK from B6 is EI?? Any other airline would require exiting security and taking the Airtrain to another terminal and re-clearing security. Whereas DTW-BOS-Europe on B6 is a very easy connection to not only EI & TP, but if you connect to another European carrier it's a seamless walk from Terminal C to Terminal E without having to leave security.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:49 pm

STT757 wrote:

it's not all gloom and doom, United has more Widebody aircraft than any other US carrier and not a lot of International routes for them right now. They can 787-10 JetBlue to death on the Trans-cons.


Wish they would try. UA will lose a ton more money each of those flights than B6 on a 320.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:59 pm

I can't of thought of a better way for B6 to wake up and piss off every major airline in the US. I'll be grabbing the popcorn to watch how all this comes down!!
 
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SANFan
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:59 pm

I've already posted elsewhere but I notice that there hasn't been much mention on this thread of the new EWR-SAN route that begins Aug 6 with a frequency of "up to 1x daily." Since this is a route involving the growing and expanding EWR focus city of B6, I'm hopeful this will be a long-term add and not just a quick summer cash grab. With several new gates being acquired at Liberty, they've got to fill them with flights to somewhere...

This brings SAN's route map on Blue to 4 destinations and that's a good thing!

bb
 
BlueBaller
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:02 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Why not connect some of the dots in flyover country they've avoided for years? WN just bailed on BOS-CMH, which would open the door for them.


“Connecting the dots” in B6 lingo implies adding new service in existing markets. Somebody else mentioned starting JFK - Boise, ID which is completely asinine right about now. Since they’re focus on conserving cash and reinforcement of their brand in current markets, opening up a brand new station, with all the overhead those kinds of costs incur, isn’t the wisest idea, even if it’d be an undisputed success. Ask any B6 employee they’ll tell you their token presence in some of these markets for years has been very frustrating. Good to see them reaffirming themselves.
 
LH658
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:05 pm

I wish they added IAH, but I guess since DL flies LGA/JFK to IAH and UA with EWR/LGA and B6 only to JFK, and Spirit only to EWR, there's already enough capacity I guess to the NYC area.
 
kavok
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:06 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
x1234 wrote:
FINALLY DTW-JFK so I can use JFK as a gateway to Europe!


Why on earth would you be excited to use JFK as a gateway to Europe when the only airline you can easily connect to @ JFK from B6 is EI?? Any other airline would require exiting security and taking the Airtrain to another terminal and re-clearing security. Whereas DTW-BOS-Europe on B6 is a very easy connection to not only EI & TP, but if you connect to another European carrier it's a seamless walk from Terminal C to Terminal E without having to leave security.


True, but that only works on the North America to Europe connection. On the return, effectively you have to clear security regardless, so it is not as big a deal.

I think the bigger issue is options. The JFK AirTran connection, while annoying, provides another LCC TATL option. Remember that DTW flyers have no LCC carriers to Europe or ME3 carriers to the Middle East. Thus the only option before to get a TATL LCC or ME3 was through BOS. This provides a second option, even if slightly more inconvenient on the way there.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:12 pm

And what about all of the other routes and the few cities that they cut due to the pandemic? Not bringing them back?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
" So if they want to expand at EWR, they need to add more flights. I'd love to see LAX or SFO, but not sure if they have enough mint aircraft around for even 4x on EWR-LAX. Aside from that, stuff like PUJ/MBJ/KIN/CUN/AUA/BGI(more than 1x weekly) all seem to things they can try internationally. And domestically, I think leisure places and large WN stations are all places they can target like MSY/AUS/LAS/SAN and also places they have large enough presence like BUF/JAX/CHS/ACK."
- I got a lot of these EWR markets right. Basically, only missed PHX/SRQ.

I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned BOS up to this point. 30 new routes and nothing from BOS. There is a reason for that.

BOS business markets are slow to come back. They are doing just a fraction of the schedule to business markets like NYC/DC/Chicago/Philly compared to pre-COVID. DL is not in a hurry to add back BOS business routes, so JetBlue can take its time adding back capacity to those markets. Major shift of its focus back to NYC.

What have we seen in NYC?
DL slow to add back LGA due to non-existent corporate demand. Even slower adding back JFK due to collapsed international demand. No more 717s. Apparently
AA giving up a lot of slots at JFK and effectively dehubbing it.
UA slowly to add back EWR capacity and have minimal presence at LGA
No WN to worry about at EWR and JFK
No ULCC to worry about at JFK

Everything has opened up for B6 at NYC. DTW/MSP/DFW is less about picking a fight with DL in JFK-DTW/MSP and more about completing their network at JFK. I've been harping on them about adding these markets for a while now.

After they add these 3 markets and enter Europe, they are basically just missing CLT in their network. The biggest knock against B6 in NYC has always been that they don't fly to enough places. Especially for securing corporate contracts and now they will at least have token presence everywhere. If they can just get a few more LGA slots, then they can enter LGA-ORD and be a legitimate competitor in the business market to the legacy carriers. All this could be accomplished by 2022. A big difference compared to pre-COVID when they are boxed in at NYC with limited growth areas. They were just going to lose out more and more DL in NYC over time. It's a much bigger deal to DL than just JFK-DTW/MSP. Better to play offensive against DL at NYC and forcing DL to add back JFK quickly rather than play defensively at BOS like they were doing pre-COVID.

As for EWR, these are obvious moves for them to do. I'm just surprised they did not add more island stuff. I would imagine once they are certain the islands are not closing down traffic again, they will start adding stuff like PUJ/MBJ/CUN/AUA. I think they've been planning this move for a while. They got the extra space with new terminal 1 opening up and WN not around to fight for gates. This looks like they are aiming at minimum a 60 flight operation. Maybe they can go even higher than that. UA is going to take a while to get back to over 400 flights. JetBlue has until at least 2022 to add flights without worrying that NY airspace will be jammed up again.

Goal here for JetBlue should be a legitimate 3rd option for ff and businesses in NY area and a legitimate 2nd option for ff and businesses in NJ area. Looks like they are even thinking of moving into PA, which is probably a terrible idea.



Spot on Boston NYC analysis
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:20 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
And what about all of the other routes and the few cities that they cut due to the pandemic? Not bringing them back?



Boston business markets will see less frequency
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 523
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:23 pm

catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.

The MAX 10 will be the 757 transcon replacement...
 
gregn21
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Where on earth does the metal to operate this schedule come from? There must be substantial cuts somewhere in the system to make room for this kind of expansion right?
 
evank516
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:40 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
UA isn't going to like Mint on EWR-LAX/SFO, plus all the new EWR flying.

Going right at DL as well with JFK-DTW/MSP

Interesting to watch....


I'm excited to see DL's response to JFK-DTW/MSP. Maybe we will actually see additional mainline flying on JFK-DTW and kick the 717s off of JFK-MSP.


Currently, albeit a greatly reduced schedule, JFK-MSP is A220's. MSP isn't seeing too many 717's of late. Again, greatly reduced though...


Yeah I noticed that the A220 has been the plane of choice for JFK-MSP as of lately. They started making their appearance on the route right before the pandemic took air travel down. JFK-DTW was 1x A220, 1x 717 and the rest CR9s. I have a feeling that will change with this announcement. Probably an increase in A220s.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:45 pm

gregn21 wrote:
Where on earth does the metal to operate this schedule come from? There must be substantial cuts somewhere in the system to make room for this kind of expansion right?


They stashed 90 airplanes in the desert back in April, another 60 throughout the system, and are nowhere near ready to resume a 2019 schedule until at least 12 months from now. It's a way to capture a cratered-out domestic market that's already proven itself in terms of demand, while adding flights at existing stations.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:55 pm

AA & DL's inability to really attack B6 at BOS now, or at least as aggressively as planned probably played into this as well. Gave jetBlue the breathing space to attack DL/UA in NYC and AA in PHL. Also in Florida, this p2p flying will put pressure on WN who has cut Florida through th winter more than any other place - in fact they are growing most of the rest of their network.
 
klm617
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:58 pm

kavok wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
x1234 wrote:
FINALLY DTW-JFK so I can use JFK as a gateway to Europe!


Why on earth would you be excited to use JFK as a gateway to Europe when the only airline you can easily connect to @ JFK from B6 is EI?? Any other airline would require exiting security and taking the Airtrain to another terminal and re-clearing security. Whereas DTW-BOS-Europe on B6 is a very easy connection to not only EI & TP, but if you connect to another European carrier it's a seamless walk from Terminal C to Terminal E without having to leave security.


True, but that only works on the North America to Europe connection. On the return, effectively you have to clear security regardless, so it is not as big a deal.

I think the bigger issue is options. The JFK AirTran connection, while annoying, provides another LCC TATL option. Remember that DTW flyers have no LCC carriers to Europe or ME3 carriers to the Middle East. Thus the only option before to get a TATL LCC or ME3 was through BOS. This provides a second option, even if slightly more inconvenient on the way there.


I would much rather connect at JFK than BOS. Remember at JFK you have more options in case of a missed connection as most carriers have multiple flights into JFK where as in BOS a missed connection and you are screwed.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
N649DL
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:59 pm

hohd wrote:
UA huge mistake in leaving JFK and placing all its bets on EWR-LAX/SFO will hurt soon. Better late than never, may be it is time to reintroduce JFK service for UA.


Holy Crap this is true. B6's Mint is literally going to kick UA's Ass on EWR-LAX/SFO (since they've watered down PS after leaving JFK). The question is will the Tri-State Area recover from COVID-19 to eventually fill up these new routes? And where are they getting the gates from? Are they going to operated out of the old WN / sUA gates in A-1?

Also to note PHL is getting some nice new additions as well.
 
MavyWavyATR
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:11 pm

Good for both B6 and EWR. But wouldn't this kind of buildup at EWR cannibalize B6's JFK operation?
 
chicawgo
Posts: 435
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:16 pm

drdisque wrote:
Flying ORD-PBI Local to Local is going to be a disaster. Yes, UA isn't flying it right now and WN only flies it seasonally, but there's a reason, there isn't much demand and what demand there is depends on having some feed.


I wouldn't count this one out. There are a lot of people in Chicago metro that have places north of FLL and PBI is much more convenient. I realize this is anecdotal but I have three family members and 3 other family friends with homes/condos where PBI is preferred. A few in Boca and Delray which could go to PBI or FLL and some in Jupiter which is significantly closer to PBI being north of Palm Beach. Also, PBI is a much easier experience, especially for seniors.

AA generally has 2-3 flights per day and UA has seasonal. WN is so minimal it's almost not even relevant. Also, honestly, most people that have O&D travel to that area live on the north and west sides and MDW is not preferred.

I think it's a great idea to try and get some visibility while UA and AA are shredding flights.
 
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FLIHGH
Posts: 258
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:19 pm

Interesting to see them relaunch TPA-DCA so quickly after nearly gutting all of the non hub DCA flying.
 
catiii
Posts: 3517
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:21 pm

STT757 wrote:
catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.


it's not all gloom and doom, United has more Widebody aircraft than any other US carrier and not a lot of International routes for them right now. They can 787-10 JetBlue to death on the Trans-cons.


Good for them. See how that works out for them.
 
tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:22 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
AA & DL's inability to really attack B6 at BOS now, or at least as aggressively as planned probably played into this as well. Gave jetBlue the breathing space to attack DL/UA in NYC and AA in PHL. Also in Florida, this p2p flying will put pressure on WN who has cut Florida through th winter more than any other place - in fact they are growing most of the rest of their network.

Exactly. Without pressure at BOS, B6 is free to expand at NYC as it sees fit. It also helps that WN and ULCCs are busy expanding, so legacies have more than 1 airline to retaliate against. The big 4 have basically made choices that have reduced pressure on B6 everywhere.

In Florida, I still think B6 will have real difficulty with ULCCs (especially NK at FLL) in the next couple of years. We will see. If someone buys out NK, it would be a great gift to JetBlue.

gregn21 wrote:
Where on earth does the metal to operate this schedule come from? There must be substantial cuts somewhere in the system to make room for this kind of expansion right?

They have so many parked aircraft right now and have not retired any of them. And they are taking 16 A220s and over 20 more A321NEO/LRs from now until end of 2022. I'm sure LGB is toast at this point. FLL will be smaller for a while and MCO will be even smaller for a while. it will take a while for BOS business markets to come back to pre-COVID levels.

MavyWavyATR wrote:
Good for both B6 and EWR. But wouldn't this kind of buildup at EWR cannibalize B6's JFK operation?

Not at all. There are a lot of people that fly out of EWR but not JFK. It also helps that WN left completely, AA is much smaller at JFK and UA/DL are likely to be below pre-COVID capacity until international comes back to pre-COVID level.

N649DL wrote:
hohd wrote:
UA huge mistake in leaving JFK and placing all its bets on EWR-LAX/SFO will hurt soon. Better late than never, may be it is time to reintroduce JFK service for UA.


Holy Crap this is true. B6's Mint is literally going to kick UA's Ass on EWR-LAX/SFO (since they've watered down PS after leaving JFK). The question is will the Tri-State Area recover from COVID-19 to eventually fill up these new routes? And where are they getting the gates from? Are they going to operated out of the old WN / sUA gates in A-1?

Also to note PHL is getting some nice new additions as well.

It remains to be seen whether B6 is looking to be a real competitor to UA on these routes or just be around 3 to 4x daily like VX/AS have been.

Again, forcing AS out of EWR-LAX/SFO/SAN is probably part of their calculation here.
 
catiii
Posts: 3517
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:22 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.

The MAX 10 will be the 757 transcon replacement...


And when is it certified for return to flight? And when are they getting it?
 
T5towbar
Posts: 489
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:42 pm

N649DL wrote:
hohd wrote:
UA huge mistake in leaving JFK and placing all its bets on EWR-LAX/SFO will hurt soon. Better late than never, may be it is time to reintroduce JFK service for UA.


Holy Crap this is true. B6's Mint is literally going to kick UA's Ass on EWR-LAX/SFO (since they've watered down PS after leaving JFK). The question is will the Tri-State Area recover from COVID-19 to eventually fill up these new routes? And where are they getting the gates from? Are they going to operated out of the old WN / sUA gates in A-1?

Also to note PHL is getting some nice new additions as well.


They are using those gates in A-1, since AC isn't flying much. The construction has Gates 10; 11; & 12 blocked. There is no Gate 13.
B6 also have Gate 31 to use as well. But I don't think that they will be in B-2 since it is optimized for UA Express ops. You could only use 5 gates (for ML) in B-2. Also note, that C5 and XJT has there MX ops in B-2 as well. (Those aircraft for C5 are in IAD now). The concourse is abandoned, but you have some of their personnel still there. B6 also have there BMU in B-2 instead of B-1. Right now, slots are not a problem since UA isn't running a full schedule. And it was also rumored that B6 was going to make more moves here since the new terminal was to come online, and with WN leaving; COVID 19 happened; it just helped speed things up. They will be the 2nd biggest operator here. I thought that they would expand more, but the Transcons with Mint was a surprise. That was a big time move!

UA will just have to add another daily 787 (or a 777) on the routes.

BTW: Will the MAX ever fly again? As someone said, that was supposed to be the replacement (or to supplement with the 321's that supposed to come online in a few years). They were supposed to replace the 738/739 on the Transcon routes.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
AA94
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:12 pm

Really aggressive move by B6 at precisely the right time. As a UA employee I'm obviously a little unsettled, but this is a fantastic opportunity to take advantage of the current environment where the normal playbook is out the window.

Forcing AS out of the transcon markets ex-EWR seems like low hanging fruit, especially since AS has been a retreating, defensive player on transcon flying since the VX acquisition.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:19 pm

WOW!

Very aggressive!
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 5122
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:52 pm

STT757 wrote:
catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning


Completely agreed on your UA assessment. I think it is clear that United’s New York/New Jersey strategy is in flux with Jill Kaplan leaving after less than 2 years, who came to United with much fanfare to be the President of New York/New Jersey. It appears they are dismantling that whole effort. As you rightly noted the network options from LGA are worthless, and to not even maintain a beach head presence in JFK was arguably the dumbest decision they've ever made. They do not have a transcontinental 757 replacement and the existing product pre-Covid was tired worn and dated. I don't see what their opportunities to respond here are, because they have rendered themselves irrelevant in the tri-state area everywhere but EWR, and that wall is crumbling.


it's not all gloom and doom, United has more Widebody aircraft than any other US carrier and not a lot of International routes for them right now. They can 787-10 JetBlue to death on the Trans-cons.


Kirby has not shown any interest in being competitive during the crisis, I don't see UA trying to fight B6 at this point

The strategy appears to be to shrink to profitability at all costs, even if you could end up hurting the business long-term
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