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kavok
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:06 pm

tphuang wrote:
klm617 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

What B6 partner that flys JFK-Europe offers multiple flight options that don’t offer those same options BOS-Europe. There’s only two B6 partners to Europe - Aer Lingus & Icelandair - and both have multiple flights at JFK & BOS. In fact with FI there’s more flights from BOS than JFK.


Here are the code share partners you can't tell me BOS has better coverage than JFK.

Aer Lingus
Aeroflot
Air China
Air India
All Nippon Airways
Asiana Airlines
Austrian Airlines
Azul Brazilian Airlines
El Al
Emirates
Etihad Airways
EVA Air
Japan Airlines
JSX
Hawaiian Airlines
Hainan Airlines
Iberia
Icelandair
Korean Air
Lufthansa
Porter Airlines
South African Airways
Swiss International Air Lines
Singapore Airlines
TAP Air Portugal
Turkish Airlines

Keep in mind that it's far easier for people to make connections at BOS from C to E vs JFK, where they are only co-terminaled with HA/EI/TP. It's going to be that way until they start and finish the T5 to T7 project. Also these within perimeter routes out of JFK are normally 2x daily. Which means they are geared more toward O&D rather than connection. BOS-DTW will continue to have more frequency which makes connection easier.

hiflyeras wrote:
Has anyone considered that B6 is doing this to prod consolidation? Nothing works better to push a much larger competitor to make you disappear than poking them with a stick.

That's why you do it now when all the legacies are short on cash. Note how they make no effort to challenge WN anywhere? Besides, UA trying to merge with B6 at this point will get DOJ noticed. Can't think of more obvious move to eliminate competitor.


You need to remember the vast majority of DTW/MSP pax who will be taking B6 from DTW/MSP to BOS/JFK connecting to TATL LCC/ME3/Intl. are either VFR or low fare leisure travelers. These pax typically make their purchase decisions by price and schedule in that order.

The fact that Boston is a slightly easier connection is something that most of that passenger group wouldn’t even think to consider, let alone make a decision on. If B6 and their partners can offer low prices at convenient schedules, there is a decent amount of low fare traffic that can be captured from both DTW/MSP.

Given the lack of any LCC options in DTW and few options in MSP, and the obvious fact that AA/DL/UA won’t provide connections to those LCC, there is definitely a market for B6 to offer that connecting leg to BOS/JFK while picking up some O/D of its own. And JFK offers even more LCC/ME3 options that may work better cost or schedule wise.
 
Runway28L
Posts: 2091
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:35 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
PBI-PIT - Even more mystifying than the return of FLL-PIT. What the hell?

I didn’t expect PIT-PBI. However, it’s been a very underserved route for a long time and a lot of travelers in Pittsburgh have been clamoring for better service to there (before, WN and F9 only had token seasonal weekend service and neither lasted long). Only recently was it finally added nonstop year-round with G4 starting twice weekly service last November.

PIT-FLL consistently had respectable loads when the flight previously operated, so I’m not sure why you claim it “sucked” (unless you have access to yield data I don’t have). I am slightly surprised however that they are returning back to this route so quickly. NK will be at higher frequency than they were the last time B6 was on this route. And of course, there is WN which has leverage of being the #1 airline at PIT.
 
catiii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:54 am

VS11 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Notionally though to think, as the poster referenced, that B6 is doing this to spur UA to engage in M&A with B6 is farcical and certainly not reflective of how the world works. If B6 wanted to engage in M&A with UA they'd just call them.


Not exactly. If jetBlue wants to put itself on the market, they would hire investment bankers/advisors to do a "strategic review". This is typically the widespread signal that a sale or some sort of corporate action is on the table. The bankers will then feel out the market.


Or the CEOs could just talk. Which is how other mergers have been broached.

But to infer that B6 coming into the EWR market to spur UA to engage in M&A is, again, farcical.
 
catiii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:57 am

jfklganyc wrote:
How did this thread become about united abandoning Newark?

What a joke this website has become. A sad freaking joke


Bring back the paywall.
 
catiii
Posts: 3514
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:01 am

hiflyeras wrote:
B6 is a bug compared to UA...and they could easily treat them as such if this were any other times. It's a ballsy move by B6 and is going to drain a lot of their cash. I'm surprised their creditors (including the US govt if they took a loan) aren't looking at this with interest and maybe a bit of derision. Let's go blow Uncle Sam's money on trying to build a new hub in the city with the biggest UA hub in their system. It's nuts.


First off, EWR isn’t UA’s biggest hub. Second, creditors love getting paid. Period. Anything that generates money to pay them (like poaching premium traffic) isn’t frowned upon. Third, if you think Treasury post CARES is weighing in on what routes an airline is starting you obviously don’t work at one. Fourth, what makes you think it’s going to “drain a lot of cash?”

Don’t forget the “bug” drove UA out of JFK...
 
catiii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:08 am

tphuang wrote:
Hi, it's been a long time. Hope you are doing well.
jetbluefan1 wrote:
Thanks for your analysis! My how quickly things changed in just a few months, where we were contemplating B6's defense of BOS and its need to increase JFK slot utilization. The pandemic has completely changed the dynamics. Wow.

Here are some thoughts from me:

JFK - With the additions of DTW, MSP, and DFW, along with the BNA addition (announced pre-pandemic), B6 will have significant domestic coverage. Combined with the growing LatAm network (I assume GUA will still come on-line at some point), and London next year, B6 will really have a robust network. AA's reported draw-down will give B6 even more opportunity to consolidate its position and be a more fierce competitor against DL. It will be interesting to see how DL responds....where does JFK fit in terms of their priorities?

EWR - I mean....wow! We always spoke about how great it would be to see Mint there, but now that it's actually happening I'm pretty stunned. B6 will now be able to tout lie-flat service from both NYC airports to LAX and SFO - which AA, UA, and DL cannot tout. I bet we'll see AS pushed out of these markets from EWR, and perhaps even JFK. PHX/SAN are truly out of left field, and I'm not sure how well they will perform (especially PHX, where B6 has traditionally been weak). It's great to see them also adding LAS, AUS, CHS, JAX, and SRQ. These will all do well.

Overall thoughts on NYC - I love seeing B6 re-focusing here. As a New Yorker I have been disappointed with some of B6's moves in NYC over the past few years (especially the draw-down of LGA Florida flying, which looks like it's coming back with the addition of TPA/RSW), but these new moves give me hope. The aggressiveness from both JFK and EWR is great to see. Clearly there are huge opportunities to be had here with AA returning slots and gates becoming available at EWR. Great to see them fill in the vacuum.

Yeah I think EWR-PHX is probably the most iffy there that they added. I would've liked to see them add MSY or RDU instead. But there is time for more. I'm sure more island flying is coming for winter if they continue to prioritize NY/NJ here.

Not sure what they are going to do with LGA-TPA/RSW once BOS business demand comes back. Maybe they will have more slots by then.

FLL - I'm not sure what to make about the return to PIT. B6 tried this before, but it sucked. What changed? Great to see PDX/SEA get added though....hopefully SEA can eventually get to daily, and perhaps earn Mint.

I don't think they should've cut PIT to begin with. Maybe they are thinking WN will cut PIT soon, which would allow them to just compete against NK here. As for the other two, they seem to be hard to do in wintertime with A320. Unless they put A321 or A220 here, these are going to quickly become tech stop specials.

PHL - Super confused by this. What does B6 have to gain by competing in super low-yield Florida/SJU flying? Makes no sense, other than to piss AA/NK/F9 off I suppose.

There might be a PA angle here. Try the water and see if their expansion at EWR will allow them to gain some customers in south NJ and central/Eastern PA. Not a completely terrible idea, but I think most of these won't stick around. could just be a play toward the entire population of NJ.
PBI-ORD - Interesting move. B6 has a pretty strong presence at PBI, and FLL-ORD seems to be doing okay, so this could work.

PBI-PIT - Even more mystifying than the return of FLL-PIT. What the hell?

RSW-CLE - Again, what the hell? B6 is pretty strong at RSW, but FLL-CLE is a below-average performer, so I don't see what makes them think that this will work. I know that Midwesterners generally prefer the Gulf Coast compared to the Atlantic Coast of Florida, but this still seems strange to me.

MCO-SFO - Super confused by this. Other than trying to knock AS out, this serves little purpose IMO. I can't see how this does better than MCO-LAX, which is a terrible market for B6 (and everyone else).

These ones were the strangest for me. The Florida ones look like short term cash grabs. For ORD, maybe they are hoping to be able to utilize 2 gates at some point. For PIT/CLE, would be nice if they build up in one of these 2 places. Minimal legacy presence and WN not that strong either.


I think with most of these routes ex PHL, CLE, and PIT we’ll have to wait an see what the schedules look like in terms of frequencies. I can see them making the move in daily, but I can also see them then doing some day of week type stuff like Allegiant to capture existing customers who want to travel between these two cities but for while the connections stink.
 
tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:12 am

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Thanks, hope you're doing well too! I took a break from the site for awhile since I was so depressed by all the news and its impact on our beloved industry. But I couldn't stay away after seeing this huge move by B6.

I'm surprised MSY/RDU weren't included in this announcement. Those seem like much more obvious adds than PHX (or even SAN), but I suppose B6 looked at UA's capacity reductions and decided that these were the most appropriate markets. It's quite bold.

Definitely the most exciting news for Jetblue in a long time.

Maybe MSY and island will come around for winter season when the demand will be higher to those places. Seem like obvious adds if they want to build something large in EWR. With international flying down, it should give them optimal landing times in Terminal B. Other than that, stuff like RDU/BNA/BUF/SAV could be good adds for April. Basically anything that works well at JFK has a chance to work at EWR.

It's not a terrible idea, they can see what sticks. Certainly easy to drop these markets if they don't work, or if the aircraft are needed elsewhere. I wonder if AA will even bother to respond.

I agree that PIT/CLE are good opportunities. However, I'm pretty sure that both have stagnant (or shrinking) populations, so they may feel it's not worth it, and better to focus on NYC/BOS/FLL metros. But if these new one-offs work out, maybe they'll try something else.

It's also possible that B6 is looking at the benefit of growing its PBI and RSW operations, which are already quite robust to begin with. RSW will now have service to CLE, PVD, PHL, LGA, JFK, EWR, HPN, BOS, and DCA. PBI will have service to same (swap CLE out for ORD/PIT). I may be missing a few markets, but that's a pretty nice network. When the A220 comes on-line they could even try flying out to LAX, SFO, LAS, and add markets like RDU and AUS.

I guess that's kind of what most of the non NYC stuff looks like. They are putting it in now with the rather low bar of just collecting enough money to pay for the flights itself. Florida seems to be where all the demand is at the moment. Not sure if that will hold, but all the ULCCs are going full throttle there. I'd be surprised if even 2/3 of these stick around.

The EWR/JFK adds are strategic, so they will probably be given every opportunity to be successful.

evank516 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JFK is, and will continue to be, a high priority for DL. DL's not about to give up on their plan to be NYC's preferred carrier because of this temporary demand slump. They're investing billions into their LGA terminal, already invested a significant chunk of change into their JFK terminal not all that long ago, and are going to be keeping JFK around as their primary transatlantic gateway.

As for response, though, I'm not sure how aggressive they'll be. I wouldn't be surprised to see mostly A220s on JFK-MSP/DTW, but I'd guess these routes carry a higher percentage of connecting traffic for DL than O&D, and largely flows that B6 can't replicate with their network at that.


JFK-MSP (pre-COVID) was a mix of A220s and 717s as it is, so I'm assuming that the 717s will phase out and move to A220s almost entirely, with the odd A319 or A320 maybe thrown in too. JFK-DTW was heavily RJ pre-COVID, and in recent years lacked year-round mainline. It was only this year that they plugged in an A220 AND a 717 into JFK-DTW with about 3 or 4 other CR9 options, which as I said many times before, is very, very odd for DL to do on a hub to hub route. I would hope to see less CR9s and more A220s on JFK-DTW.

I don't think A220s would be the kind of pressure that would scare off B6. After all, B6 have been co-existing pretty well with DL on JFK-ATL. Very profitable route for them. I don't know what JetBlue's plans are with their own A220s. But if DL ends up running A220-100 against B6 running A220-300 on the same route, it will be a huge problem for DL. It will be 30 more seat and about the same overall operating cost (lower fuel cost, but higher staffing cost all the way around)
 
dfwking
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:34 am

AMALH747430 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jetblue-just-flouted-airline-industry-223016872.html

I agree with this article’s bottom line. Kirby is an aggressive guy. He’ll respond to this and when he does B6 will have to evaluate whether EWR is worth it. B6 may not be so keen on this fight if UA decides to ramp up SFO/LAX - BOS. This is a pretty easy move for B6 right now and it will be easy to back away from too if it doesn’t work.

Kirby isn’t Jeff Smisek and he isn’t Gerard Arpey. He’ll react.


How realistic is it that this spurs UA to enter JFK again?

I'm not familiar with all the slot / gate rules and crew arrangements, but going back into JFK and launching SFO/LAX/LAS/LHR would seem to be a great opportunity for UA. They could round out their NYC presence and hit back at B6 at the same time...
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:40 am

catiii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
How did this thread become about united abandoning Newark?

What a joke this website has become. A sad freaking joke


Bring back the paywall.



Agreed.

For many of us that care, it is the first site we check in the morning.

We are going to do that whether it is free or paid
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:49 am

dfwking wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jetblue-just-flouted-airline-industry-223016872.html

I agree with this article’s bottom line. Kirby is an aggressive guy. He’ll respond to this and when he does B6 will have to evaluate whether EWR is worth it. B6 may not be so keen on this fight if UA decides to ramp up SFO/LAX - BOS. This is a pretty easy move for B6 right now and it will be easy to back away from too if it doesn’t work.

Kirby isn’t Jeff Smisek and he isn’t Gerard Arpey. He’ll react.


How realistic is it that this spurs UA to enter JFK again?

I'm not familiar with all the slot / gate rules and crew arrangements, but going back into JFK and launching SFO/LAX/LAS/LHR would seem to be a great opportunity for UA. They could round out their NYC presence and hit back at B6 at the same time...



That would be a great move.

Considering the size of United, They would need five daily to LAX, five daily to SFO, 2 daily to LAS and 2 daily to LHR.

14 daily flights. Likely 3 gates if they were a LCC...but more like 4 if you are a legacy.

Two widebodies dedicated to LHR.

Two LHR slots from somewhere.

New hire crew at JFK.

Need a lounge for this right? New lounge at JFK.

That is a lot of capital for an airline that’s burning a lot of money and parking a lot of planes.


And we know they were not making money at JFK before.


B6 is in a different spot. They already have five gates at Newark that they acquired for a more gradual expansion. The crew is there. There are plenty of planes that are not getting retired sitting around waiting for something to do. They have brand recognition in each of these markets.
 
dfwking
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:06 am

jfklganyc wrote:
dfwking wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jetblue-just-flouted-airline-industry-223016872.html

I agree with this article’s bottom line. Kirby is an aggressive guy. He’ll respond to this and when he does B6 will have to evaluate whether EWR is worth it. B6 may not be so keen on this fight if UA decides to ramp up SFO/LAX - BOS. This is a pretty easy move for B6 right now and it will be easy to back away from too if it doesn’t work.

Kirby isn’t Jeff Smisek and he isn’t Gerard Arpey. He’ll react.


How realistic is it that this spurs UA to enter JFK again?

I'm not familiar with all the slot / gate rules and crew arrangements, but going back into JFK and launching SFO/LAX/LAS/LHR would seem to be a great opportunity for UA. They could round out their NYC presence and hit back at B6 at the same time...



That would be a great move.

Considering the size of United, They would need five daily to LAX, five daily to SFO, 2 daily to LAS and 2 daily to LHR.

14 daily flights. Likely 3 gates if they were a LCC...but more like 4 if you are a legacy.

Two widebodies dedicated to LHR.

Two LHR slots from somewhere.

New hire crew at JFK.

Need a lounge for this right? New lounge at JFK.

That is a lot of capital for an airline that’s burning a lot of money and parking a lot of planes.


And we know they were not making money at JFK before.


B6 is in a different spot. They already have five gates at Newark that they acquired for a more gradual expansion. The crew is there. There are plenty of planes that are not getting retired sitting around waiting for something to do. They have brand recognition in each of these markets.


I would imagine the slots and gates would be the main obstacle at this point. As for crew scheduling, I know they staff LGA flights with EWR-based crew, so they could potentially do the same for JFK. Also, staffing these flights from SFO, LAX, and LHR bases is also possible. Lounge, etc. can come later when they are in a better financial position.

Going back to B6, I think B6 has pulled a fantastic move. But, if the legacies hit back or if demand stays weak in the Fall and Winter, I could see them retracting many of these routes. Almost seems like an F9 approach, throw everything at the board and see what sticks.
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:10 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Has anyone considered that B6 is doing this to prod consolidation? Nothing works better to push a much larger competitor to make you disappear than poking them with a stick.


Or it's a middle finger to UA and does nothing to create a synergy with UA as it puts up another wall within the DOT for competition.

If this is a "merger play" I'd say it conforms much more with Alaska. Bring East and West together and get a much stronger network. Big IF!

UA isn't even on the table.

JMO
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:19 pm

B6’s “middle finger” is towards Delta. They smell Delta’s blood in the NY water.
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:21 pm

Agree, Could be that as well. I can't remember where I read the "bug" comment now, but it seems like JB is more of the alligator in the Sewark now :p
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:26 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Agree, Could be that as well. I can't remember where I read the "bug" comment now, but it seems like JB is more of the alligator in the Sewark now :p


Agreed. And I think you could be right about the ultimate possibility of AS somewhere in the picture for B6.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:05 pm

Anyone know why these flights haven’t been given to 3rd party sites yet? I can only find them for sale on JetBlue.com
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:09 pm

Can’t help but feel much of this is a final smash against the ex Virgin now Alaskan transcon flying.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

UA is certainly going to win on frequency on EWR-SFO/LAX. It will be interesting to see how many flights B6 runs on a weekday, and what they get for average fares for those routes.

How many daily flights is UA operating on those routes for July? It is certainly not pre-Covid levels. B6 says upto 2x and 3x daily for SFO and LAX.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:44 pm

alfa164 wrote:
good2go wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Conspicuously, they did not add JFK-ATL.

JFK-ATL already exists. And has continued during COVID.


Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL

Why will B6 add EWR-ATL? DL is not big at EWR and the B6 strategy is to fight DL at JFK, not EWR.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:51 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
good2go wrote:
JFK-ATL already exists. And has continued during COVID.


Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL

Why will B6 add EWR-ATL? DL is not big at EWR and the B6 strategy is to fight DL at JFK, not EWR.


...up till now. Clearly, B6 smells Delta’s blood in the New York area waters.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:51 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
good2go wrote:
JFK-ATL already exists. And has continued during COVID.


Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL

Why will B6 add EWR-ATL? DL is not big at EWR and the B6 strategy is to fight DL at JFK, not EWR.


I think EWR-ATL would be a pretty solid add. DL is already running 7x daily flights on EWR-ATL by August. NK went 2x daily. The market is there.
 
klm617
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:03 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL

Why will B6 add EWR-ATL? DL is not big at EWR and the B6 strategy is to fight DL at JFK, not EWR.


I think EWR-ATL would be a pretty solid add. DL is already running 7x daily flights on EWR-ATL by August. NK went 2x daily. The market is there.


IDK EWR-ATL looks pretty crowded to me. Seems like that would be capacity dumping more than anything else just to trash everybody's yields. I am sure UA is on ATL-EWR as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
AMALH747430
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
dfwking wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jetblue-just-flouted-airline-industry-223016872.html

I agree with this article’s bottom line. Kirby is an aggressive guy. He’ll respond to this and when he does B6 will have to evaluate whether EWR is worth it. B6 may not be so keen on this fight if UA decides to ramp up SFO/LAX - BOS. This is a pretty easy move for B6 right now and it will be easy to back away from too if it doesn’t work.

Kirby isn’t Jeff Smisek and he isn’t Gerard Arpey. He’ll react.


How realistic is it that this spurs UA to enter JFK again?

I'm not familiar with all the slot / gate rules and crew arrangements, but going back into JFK and launching SFO/LAX/LAS/LHR would seem to be a great opportunity for UA. They could round out their NYC presence and hit back at B6 at the same time...



That would be a great move.

Considering the size of United, They would need five daily to LAX, five daily to SFO, 2 daily to LAS and 2 daily to LHR.

14 daily flights. Likely 3 gates if they were a LCC...but more like 4 if you are a legacy.

Two widebodies dedicated to LHR.

Two LHR slots from somewhere.

New hire crew at JFK.

Need a lounge for this right? New lounge at JFK.

That is a lot of capital for an airline that’s burning a lot of money and parking a lot of planes.


And we know they were not making money at JFK before.


B6 is in a different spot. They already have five gates at Newark that they acquired for a more gradual expansion. The crew is there. There are plenty of planes that are not getting retired sitting around waiting for something to do. They have brand recognition in each of these markets.


If UA could acquire the real estate it would be a good strategic move. I think they’re just fine with their current operation (again they have the only single airport long haul/short haul hub in the NYC area) but with only 3 full service legacy airlines left, that JFK presence would be nice. CO had about the same setup that UA has now (massive EWR presence and hub service to LGA) but the market is now less fragmented and all 3 airlines need some presence at all three airports in my opinion. I think you have the service levels and destinations about right.

As for my earlier post, I was simply clapping back at the notion that UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 ate AAs lunch at JFK. There are a lot of posts on this thread and others that constantly talk of UA being at a disadvantage in the NYC market. I do not think that is the case. CO/UA have become NYC’s largest carrier due to their EWR hub. This will be a bigger fight for B6 than taking on AA in the domestic and Caribbean markets from JFK. Add to that, DL has indicated that they still plan on defending their turf and growing at BOS. B6 is going to have to fight a 2 front war here with the two stronger legacies.

I still agree with the Yahoo Finance article I posted. I think B6 sees the opportunity to try something that will be very easy to undo if it gets too hot in the proverbial kitchen.
Last edited by AMALH747430 on Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:13 pm

Duplicate post. My apologies. My iphone has been acting up this morning. Mods please delete.

If UA could acquire the real estate it would be a good strategic move. I think they’re just fine with their current operation (again they have the only single airport long haul/short haul hub in the NYC area) but with only 3 full service legacy airlines left, that JFK presence would be nice. CO had about the same setup that UA has now (massive EWR presence and hub service to LGA) but the market is now less fragmented and all 3 airlines need some presence at all three airports in my opinion. I think you have the service levels and destinations about right.

As for my earlier post, I was simply clapping back at the notion that UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 ate AAs lunch at JFK. There are a lot of posts on this thread and others that constantly talk of UA being at a disadvantage in the NYC market. I do not think that is the case. CO/UA have become NYC’s largest carrier due to their EWR hub. This will be a bigger fight for B6 than taking on AA in the domestic and Caribbean markets from JFK. Add to that, DL has indicated that they still plan on defending their turf and growing at BOS. B6 is going to have to fight a 2 front war here with the two stronger legacies.

I still agree with the Yahoo Finance article I posted. I think B6 sees the opportunity to try something that will be very easy to undo if it gets too hot in the proverbial kitchen.

AMALH747430 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
dfwking wrote:

How realistic is it that this spurs UA to enter JFK again?

I'm not familiar with all the slot / gate rules and crew arrangements, but going back into JFK and launching SFO/LAX/LAS/LHR would seem to be a great opportunity for UA. They could round out their NYC presence and hit back at B6 at the same time...



That would be a great move.

Considering the size of United, They would need five daily to LAX, five daily to SFO, 2 daily to LAS and 2 daily to LHR.

14 daily flights. Likely 3 gates if they were a LCC...but more like 4 if you are a legacy.

Two widebodies dedicated to LHR.

Two LHR slots from somewhere.

New hire crew at JFK.

Need a lounge for this right? New lounge at JFK.

That is a lot of capital for an airline that’s burning a lot of money and parking a lot of planes.


And we know they were not making money at JFK before.


B6 is in a different spot. They already have five gates at Newark that they acquired for a more gradual expansion. The crew is there. There are plenty of planes that are not getting retired sitting around waiting for something to do. They have brand recognition in each of these markets.
 
Brianpr3
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:34 pm

For the rsw expansions cle, phl and pvd where are the crews based out of for cle I'm gonna guess Boston? And pvd and phl makes me want to :?:
Brian
 
N757ST
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:59 pm

Brianpr3 wrote:
For the rsw expansions cle, phl and pvd where are the crews based out of for cle I'm gonna guess Boston? And pvd and phl makes me want to :?:


All 4 east coast bases will cycle thorough those flights. Occasionally a LAX/LGB crew might even operate them.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:03 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
Can’t help but feel much of this is a final smash against the ex Virgin now Alaskan transcon flying.

Yes, I think part of B6 thinking has to be that AS will drop a good chunk of the Cali transcons.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Sorry; I meant EWR-ATL

Why will B6 add EWR-ATL? DL is not big at EWR and the B6 strategy is to fight DL at JFK, not EWR.


I think EWR-ATL would be a pretty solid add. DL is already running 7x daily flights on EWR-ATL by August. NK went 2x daily. The market is there.


They are not adding EWR-ATL anytime soon. There are too many lower hanging fruits for them to go for such a ambitious route. Here are good criteria for what JetBlue will pick to operate out of EWR:
- Stuff that they do well out of JFK
- Has leisure component (even on routes that have a lot of coprorate demand)
- No other strong non-ULCC competition.
The final criteria would eliminate stuff like EWR-ATL/DFW/DTW/MSP/CLT/SEA/DEN/IAH. That's why you see them add a lot of routes with strong WN presence on the other hand.

Brianpr3 wrote:
For the rsw expansions cle, phl and pvd where are the crews based out of for cle I'm gonna guess Boston? And pvd and phl makes me want to :?:

PVD seems more sustainable. It would make sense for them to continue building up their presence in New England area. PHL and CLE are quite ambitious. Not sure how long those will last.

millionsofmiles wrote:
B6’s “middle finger” is towards Delta. They smell Delta’s blood in the NY water.

Right, this is much more of a challenge to DL than just JFK-DTW/MSP. JetBlue is looking to have relevance as more than just a leisure carrier in NYC. That's what this is all about. DL has been very slow adding stuff back to NYC.

A JetBlue with at least 2x daily presence to all major markets out of JFK plus strong transcon, Latin America network and TATL flights is going to be much harder to deal with than AA's weak presence the past couple of years.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:16 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Duplicate post. My apologies. My iphone has been acting up this morning. Mods please delete.

If UA could acquire the real estate it would be a good strategic move. I think they’re just fine with their current operation (again they have the only single airport long haul/short haul hub in the NYC area) but with only 3 full service legacy airlines left, that JFK presence would be nice. CO had about the same setup that UA has now (massive EWR presence and hub service to LGA) but the market is now less fragmented and all 3 airlines need some presence at all three airports in my opinion. I think you have the service levels and destinations about right.

As for my earlier post, I was simply clapping back at the notion that UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 ate AAs lunch at JFK. There are a lot of posts on this thread and others that constantly talk of UA being at a disadvantage in the NYC market. I do not think that is the case. CO/UA have become NYC’s largest carrier due to their EWR hub. This will be a bigger fight for B6 than taking on AA in the domestic and Caribbean markets from JFK. Add to that, DL has indicated that they still plan on defending their turf and growing at BOS. B6 is going to have to fight a 2 front war here with the two stronger legacies.

I still agree with the Yahoo Finance article I posted. I think B6 sees the opportunity to try something that will be very easy to undo if it gets too hot in the proverbial kitchen.

Nobody in their right mind would think UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 simply won't have enough gates at EWR to mount such a challenge. I think they can co-exist pretty nicely with both running a profitable operation, but UA will also have to up their game here For too long, people on NJ side had no choice other than UA. A lot of people on jersey side would consider switching their flying needs to B6 or at least splitting between the two.

The skift article misses the point about DL. There is no better time than now for LCCs to take jabs at legacies. This is about B6 taking the fight to JFK rather than playing defensive at BOS. Corporate travel is non-existent in NE at the moment. That's why they made these moves and why DL has cut pretty much every non-hub market out of BOS for several months now. DL will be busy protecting its turf at JFK/LGA before adding back BOS stuff.

I think UA messed up here. Anyone looking at the situation could've seen that B6's obvious move was build up EWR and JFK. They should've settled on some kind of partnership with B6 offering domestic interline and pathway to star alliance along with slots at LGA/DCA in exchange for some slots at JFK and no further incursion into EWR. And now they have to deal with a more crowded EWR.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Duplicate post. My apologies. My iphone has been acting up this morning. Mods please delete.

If UA could acquire the real estate it would be a good strategic move. I think they’re just fine with their current operation (again they have the only single airport long haul/short haul hub in the NYC area) but with only 3 full service legacy airlines left, that JFK presence would be nice. CO had about the same setup that UA has now (massive EWR presence and hub service to LGA) but the market is now less fragmented and all 3 airlines need some presence at all three airports in my opinion. I think you have the service levels and destinations about right.

As for my earlier post, I was simply clapping back at the notion that UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 ate AAs lunch at JFK. There are a lot of posts on this thread and others that constantly talk of UA being at a disadvantage in the NYC market. I do not think that is the case. CO/UA have become NYC’s largest carrier due to their EWR hub. This will be a bigger fight for B6 than taking on AA in the domestic and Caribbean markets from JFK. Add to that, DL has indicated that they still plan on defending their turf and growing at BOS. B6 is going to have to fight a 2 front war here with the two stronger legacies.

I still agree with the Yahoo Finance article I posted. I think B6 sees the opportunity to try something that will be very easy to undo if it gets too hot in the proverbial kitchen.

Nobody in their right mind would think UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 simply won't have enough gates at EWR to mount such a challenge. I think they can co-exist pretty nicely with both running a profitable operation, but UA will also have to up their game here For too long, people on NJ side had no choice other than UA. A lot of people on jersey side would consider switching their flying needs to B6 or at least splitting between the two.

The skift article misses the point about DL. There is no better time than now for LCCs to take jabs at legacies. This is about B6 taking the fight to JFK rather than playing defensive at BOS. Corporate travel is non-existent in NE at the moment. That's why they made these moves and why DL has cut pretty much every non-hub market out of BOS for several months now. DL will be busy protecting its turf at JFK/LGA before adding back BOS stuff.

I think UA messed up here. Anyone looking at the situation could've seen that B6's obvious move was build up EWR and JFK. They should've settled on some kind of partnership with B6 offering domestic interline and pathway to star alliance along with slots at LGA/DCA in exchange for some slots at JFK and no further incursion into EWR. And now they have to deal with a more crowded EWR.


Great discussion points. The more nimble airlines will pounce on where there is current demand and shift fleet accordingly. Additionally, think of all the flyers that had enough travel to put their loyalty to one airline (fringe gold and silver status). Now with travel frequency for work and personal greatly reduced, attaining status is negligible meaning more passengers up for grabs. As consumers we want this to spur competition bc with all the reduced flying, need to keep pricing pressure.
 
jordanh
Posts: 320
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:43 pm

tphuang wrote:
They are not adding EWR-ATL anytime soon. There are too many lower hanging fruits for them to go for such a ambitious route. Here are good criteria for what JetBlue will pick to operate out of EWR:
- Stuff that they do well out of JFK


So now you are telling us that JetBlue does not do well on the JFK-ATL flights.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:12 pm

So theoretically how big can B6 grow to in EWR? I can definitely see possibly UA subleasing their T1 gates to B6 to make a quick penny. (UA has confirmed they have gate and lounge space in T1)
 
ShinyAndChrome
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:12 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
So theoretically how big can B6 grow to in EWR? I can definitely see possibly UA subleasing their T1 gates to B6 to make a quick penny. (UA has confirmed they have gate and lounge space in T1)


I know Kirby's been the most pessimistic person in the US business since this started, but I don't see them being that desperate just yet.
 
tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:39 pm

jordanh wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are not adding EWR-ATL anytime soon. There are too many lower hanging fruits for them to go for such a ambitious route. Here are good criteria for what JetBlue will pick to operate out of EWR:
- Stuff that they do well out of JFK


So now you are telling us that JetBlue does not do well on the JFK-ATL flights.

It's definitely above system average in performance but no reason to try such a risky move from ewr this early. Everything else they fly to ATL bleed money.
 
evank516
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:09 pm

tphuang wrote:

evank516 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JFK is, and will continue to be, a high priority for DL. DL's not about to give up on their plan to be NYC's preferred carrier because of this temporary demand slump. They're investing billions into their LGA terminal, already invested a significant chunk of change into their JFK terminal not all that long ago, and are going to be keeping JFK around as their primary transatlantic gateway.

As for response, though, I'm not sure how aggressive they'll be. I wouldn't be surprised to see mostly A220s on JFK-MSP/DTW, but I'd guess these routes carry a higher percentage of connecting traffic for DL than O&D, and largely flows that B6 can't replicate with their network at that.


JFK-MSP (pre-COVID) was a mix of A220s and 717s as it is, so I'm assuming that the 717s will phase out and move to A220s almost entirely, with the odd A319 or A320 maybe thrown in too. JFK-DTW was heavily RJ pre-COVID, and in recent years lacked year-round mainline. It was only this year that they plugged in an A220 AND a 717 into JFK-DTW with about 3 or 4 other CR9 options, which as I said many times before, is very, very odd for DL to do on a hub to hub route. I would hope to see less CR9s and more A220s on JFK-DTW.

I don't think A220s would be the kind of pressure that would scare off B6. After all, B6 have been co-existing pretty well with DL on JFK-ATL. Very profitable route for them. I don't know what JetBlue's plans are with their own A220s. But if DL ends up running A220-100 against B6 running A220-300 on the same route, it will be a huge problem for DL. It will be 30 more seat and about the same overall operating cost (lower fuel cost, but higher staffing cost all the way around)


DL will have the 220-300 as well.

And yes, both DL and B6 have been coexisting on JFK-ATL for some time, but DL didn't run CR9s on JFK-ATL either. It was usually a mix of 738s, 739s, A320s, 757s, and the 777 too. My point is DL can't keep 4-5 CR9s and the random A220/717 on JFK-DTW if B6 is running A320s.
 
catiii
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:36 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
So theoretically how big can B6 grow to in EWR? I can definitely see possibly UA subleasing their T1 gates to B6 to make a quick penny. (UA has confirmed they have gate and lounge space in T1)


Why would UA lease Gates to B6 to allow B6 to compete more effectively against them?

I could realistically see B6, once the next set of Mint 321s are delivered, replicating on a smaller scale the Mint network it has out of JFK at EWR, to include TCON and the Caribbean (with maybe the exception of a route here or there). I could also see additional connect the dots service as well on the traditional Core 32Ms/320s. I don’t see suicidal moves like OA hub flying like ATL/ORD/DEN etc.
 
N649DL
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:45 am

tphuang wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Duplicate post. My apologies. My iphone has been acting up this morning. Mods please delete.

If UA could acquire the real estate it would be a good strategic move. I think they’re just fine with their current operation (again they have the only single airport long haul/short haul hub in the NYC area) but with only 3 full service legacy airlines left, that JFK presence would be nice. CO had about the same setup that UA has now (massive EWR presence and hub service to LGA) but the market is now less fragmented and all 3 airlines need some presence at all three airports in my opinion. I think you have the service levels and destinations about right.

As for my earlier post, I was simply clapping back at the notion that UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 ate AAs lunch at JFK. There are a lot of posts on this thread and others that constantly talk of UA being at a disadvantage in the NYC market. I do not think that is the case. CO/UA have become NYC’s largest carrier due to their EWR hub. This will be a bigger fight for B6 than taking on AA in the domestic and Caribbean markets from JFK. Add to that, DL has indicated that they still plan on defending their turf and growing at BOS. B6 is going to have to fight a 2 front war here with the two stronger legacies.

I still agree with the Yahoo Finance article I posted. I think B6 sees the opportunity to try something that will be very easy to undo if it gets too hot in the proverbial kitchen.

Nobody in their right mind would think UA at EWR would end up like AA at JFK. B6 simply won't have enough gates at EWR to mount such a challenge. I think they can co-exist pretty nicely with both running a profitable operation, but UA will also have to up their game here For too long, people on NJ side had no choice other than UA. A lot of people on jersey side would consider switching their flying needs to B6 or at least splitting between the two.

The skift article misses the point about DL. There is no better time than now for LCCs to take jabs at legacies. This is about B6 taking the fight to JFK rather than playing defensive at BOS. Corporate travel is non-existent in NE at the moment. That's why they made these moves and why DL has cut pretty much every non-hub market out of BOS for several months now. DL will be busy protecting its turf at JFK/LGA before adding back BOS stuff.

I think UA messed up here. Anyone looking at the situation could've seen that B6's obvious move was build up EWR and JFK. They should've settled on some kind of partnership with B6 offering domestic interline and pathway to star alliance along with slots at LGA/DCA in exchange for some slots at JFK and no further incursion into EWR. And now they have to deal with a more crowded EWR.


Sure, but UA at EWR was always hub captive unlike AA at JFK. CO was *EXTREMELY* dominant at EWR and AA was looking to pinch JFK before DL or B6 was even dominant over there. UA at EWR is an ex-CO hub (now well integrated into the UA network) and slots are dead at the airport. That means Frontier, Spirit and JetBlue can pick away at CO's former "headstrong" EWR leisure network with ease (since UA knows that they really need to defend ORD / IAH / DEN / SFO over it.) AA at JFK (when they planned to build their original T8 in 1999) intent was to pick away at DL (then at the ex-Pan Am Terminal) but realized since then that the ex-US PHL hub is superior in retrospect. When AA announced the new T8, I don't think B6 was even a full-on airline back in the day. The AA terminal at JFK for T8 was to take on DL at JFK and also CO at EWR when it was announced. Since then, JFK has accepted B6 and DL being their dominant carriers whereas this is relatively a bit of a shock to the EWR folks in terms of competition (regarding B6 entering the ring.)

UA really needs to think this out with T-1 being built at EWR. It's no longer going to be a fortress operation as airlines will constantly chip away at their fortress network (since slots are gone.) Leaving JFK was a huge issue but what's done is done. And now with B6 expanding at EWR, it's likely easier for UA to expand out of LGA over JFK at this point. Maybe resume the ex-CO LGA-AUA route for starters?


Sorry for the rant, but I think it can be agreed upon that EWR is going to be chipped away from CO's former fortress hub going forward. Much like how EWR was in the early 1990s. Just my 2 Cents.
 
KFTG
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:13 am

Slightly off topic, but who handled CO at JFK when they flew there?
 
tphuang
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:47 am

Does the new terminal 1 have preferential access to most of the gates or are they all truly shared. If it's the former, how do they decide which ones have preferential access and which ones are shared? That would seem like the biggest limiting factor to JetBlue or the ULCCs at the moment. Is it still going to have limited opening in 2021? What happens to T A at that time?
 
T5towbar
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:08 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
So theoretically how big can B6 grow to in EWR? I can definitely see possibly UA subleasing their T1 gates to B6 to make a quick penny. (UA has confirmed they have gate and lounge space in T1)


Not happening. And especially after last weeks announcement, UA won't be doing B6 any favors. The issue for B6 growth shouldn't be gate space. (they should get a fair number of gates) In normal times, the issue would be peak hour slots. if all the carriers were operating their normal schedules, but these aren't normal times. So they should be able to run their planned schedule.

The full UA operation cannot fit into Terminal C. Right now it can. The only reason A2 was abandoned is because there are no UAX 145's. They got sent to IAD (C5).
There has been a few UAX 170/75 that has returned, and I think that the 550's are returning??. So as things stand, everything can fit in C1 & C2, with the exception of some widebodies that come to C3 (and some that come into B3 - notably FRA). I miss all of the wide bodies that come into B2 & B3. Now it is a ghost town.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:41 am

catiii wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
B6 is a bug compared to UA...and they could easily treat them as such if this were any other times. It's a ballsy move by B6 and is going to drain a lot of their cash. I'm surprised their creditors (including the US govt if they took a loan) aren't looking at this with interest and maybe a bit of derision. Let's go blow Uncle Sam's money on trying to build a new hub in the city with the biggest UA hub in their system. It's nuts.


First off, EWR isn’t UA’s biggest hub. Second, creditors love getting paid. Period. Anything that generates money to pay them (like poaching premium traffic) isn’t frowned upon. Third, if you think Treasury post CARES is weighing in on what routes an airline is starting you obviously don’t work at one. Fourth, what makes you think it’s going to “drain a lot of cash?”

Don’t forget the “bug” drove UA out of JFK...


EWR is not now, nor was it ever, UA (or CO's) largest hub. Pre-COVID19, UA was the fourth busiest hub for UA, behind ORD, IAH, and DEN and averaged around 350-400 daily departures, depending on the time of year. In CO days, it was the most profitable of CO's 3 US hubs (IAH and CLE being the other two).
 
T5towbar
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:45 am

tphuang wrote:
Does the new terminal 1 have preferential access to most of the gates or are they all truly shared. If it's the former, how do they decide which ones have preferential access and which ones are shared? That would seem like the biggest limiting factor to JetBlue or the ULCCs at the moment. Is it still going to have limited opening in 2021? What happens to T A at that time?


I don't know what will happen to AC (will there be a widebody gate or a shutdown gate to fit their 787 YVR flight, but if things go according to plan, B6 & AC (since they are in A1) will be the first tenants when it opens, because A1 (banjo) has be torn down first. F9 & NK will move from Term B should be next. Then AS and AA will make their move from A3. Then UA / UAX will move as well. UAX; AA and AS can move in the same time without disruption. The terminals (banjos) will be torn down for a hardstand, but the main terminal building where the monorail goes thru will be left intact. Maybe office/retail space, or who knows. Heard rumors of a hotel too.

Don't know the allocation of gates yet, but the aforementioned carriers will be moving to A-1. Everybody except DL. (I don't know the reason for that, but this is what I heard). These are supposed to be shared gates. but you know carriers will be given some preferential treatment. I also hear that AA and UA will have lounges as well. It's scheduled to be open 2Q of 2021. They would like to have the terminal; arrival & departure roads, and the rental car building done when opening happens. Right now, looks like construction is still on schedule. Looks pretty good from where I see it every day.

AA
AC
AS
B6
F9
NK
UA/UAX
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am

T5towbar wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
So theoretically how big can B6 grow to in EWR? I can definitely see possibly UA subleasing their T1 gates to B6 to make a quick penny. (UA has confirmed they have gate and lounge space in T1)


Not happening. And especially after last weeks announcement, UA won't be doing B6 any favors. The issue for B6 growth shouldn't be gate space. (they should get a fair number of gates) In normal times, the issue would be peak hour slots. if all the carriers were operating their normal schedules, but these aren't normal times. So they should be able to run their planned schedule.

The full UA operation cannot fit into Terminal C. Right now it can. The only reason A2 was abandoned is because there are no UAX 145's. They got sent to IAD (C5).
There has been a few UAX 170/75 that has returned, and I think that the 550's are returning??. So as things stand, everything can fit in C1 & C2, with the exception of some widebodies that come to C3 (and some that come into B3 - notably FRA). I miss all of the wide bodies that come into B2 & B3. Now it is a ghost town.


I dont think UA has a say in future gates at all

They have an abandoned banjo in Terminal A

B6 is expanding. Plain and simple. F9 and NK are expanding too.

This isn’t Atlanta. Gate use doesn’t get run by the big airline for approval. As of now, UA has no need for gates beyond Terminal C. That may change down the road...but other airlines are making moves now
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:00 pm

T5towbar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Does the new terminal 1 have preferential access to most of the gates or are they all truly shared. If it's the former, how do they decide which ones have preferential access and which ones are shared? That would seem like the biggest limiting factor to JetBlue or the ULCCs at the moment. Is it still going to have limited opening in 2021? What happens to T A at that time?


I don't know what will happen to AC (will there be a widebody gate or a shutdown gate to fit their 787 YVR flight, but if things go according to plan, B6 & AC (since they are in A1) will be the first tenants when it opens, because A1 (banjo) has be torn down first. F9 & NK will move from Term B should be next. Then AS and AA will make their move from A3. Then UA / UAX will move as well. UAX; AA and AS can move in the same time without disruption. The terminals (banjos) will be torn down for a hardstand, but the main terminal building where the monorail goes thru will be left intact. Maybe office/retail space, or who knows. Heard rumors of a hotel too.

Don't know the allocation of gates yet, but the aforementioned carriers will be moving to A-1. Everybody except DL. (I don't know the reason for that, but this is what I heard). These are supposed to be shared gates. but you know carriers will be given some preferential treatment. I also hear that AA and UA will have lounges as well. It's scheduled to be open 2Q of 2021. They would like to have the terminal; arrival & departure roads, and the rental car building done when opening happens. Right now, looks like construction is still on schedule. Looks pretty good from where I see it every day.

AA
AC
AS
B6
F9
NK
UA/UAX


It looks like the Monorail is a bit short of the new Terminal?

Will it just be a long walk? Or will they extend the trackage until a replacement is in place down the road?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:01 pm

KFTG wrote:
Slightly off topic, but who handled CO at JFK when they flew there?



They flew out of T4. I think they handled themselves. Likely outsourced below wing
 
T5towbar
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:31 pm

It looks like the Monorail is a bit short of the new Terminal?

Will it just be a long walk? Or will they extend the trackage until a replacement is in place down the road?[/quote]


There is a spur goes to the AirTrain maintenance shed. It runs parallel to Earhart Drive. That is where the new station will be. Near the old Cell Phone Lot where the limos and taxis hang out. So it won't be a long walk. That will be the new main line, since that track won't be needed.
The main track goes to P 1; 2 and 3 where the rental cars are. That won't be needed since there will be a consolidated rental car center in front of the terminal on the other side of the creek. A skybridge will take you from the terminal to the RAC.

You really can't see it because Earhart Drive is closed for the new approach roads. You now have to take the long way to get to Chelsea; FedEx; and employee Lot F.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
tphuang
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:22 pm

T5towbar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Does the new terminal 1 have preferential access to most of the gates or are they all truly shared. If it's the former, how do they decide which ones have preferential access and which ones are shared? That would seem like the biggest limiting factor to JetBlue or the ULCCs at the moment. Is it still going to have limited opening in 2021? What happens to T A at that time?


I don't know what will happen to AC (will there be a widebody gate or a shutdown gate to fit their 787 YVR flight, but if things go according to plan, B6 & AC (since they are in A1) will be the first tenants when it opens, because A1 (banjo) has be torn down first. F9 & NK will move from Term B should be next. Then AS and AA will make their move from A3. Then UA / UAX will move as well. UAX; AA and AS can move in the same time without disruption. The terminals (banjos) will be torn down for a hardstand, but the main terminal building where the monorail goes thru will be left intact. Maybe office/retail space, or who knows. Heard rumors of a hotel too.

Don't know the allocation of gates yet, but the aforementioned carriers will be moving to A-1. Everybody except DL. (I don't know the reason for that, but this is what I heard). These are supposed to be shared gates. but you know carriers will be given some preferential treatment. I also hear that AA and UA will have lounges as well. It's scheduled to be open 2Q of 2021. They would like to have the terminal; arrival & departure roads, and the rental car building done when opening happens. Right now, looks like construction is still on schedule. Looks pretty good from where I see it every day.

AA
AC
AS
B6
F9
NK
UA/UAX


Thanks for the info. Sounds like if JetBlue wanted to really compete at EWR, it will need to add flights quickly at the new Terminal 1 after they move in to get "preferential treatment" for more of the gates and to get time slots before UA add enough flights that airspace is overly crowded again. They might have sometime if TATL and TPAC stuff remains weak for a few years, but can't wait too long if they want to build this up to like a 100 flight station.
 
windian425
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:00 pm

Once they establish a focus city in EWR B6 could also consider launching EWR-LON flights with A321XLR's. These flights will compliment the JFK & BOS transatlantic ops.
 
catiii
Posts: 3514
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:44 pm

windian425 wrote:
Once they establish a focus city in EWR B6 could also consider launching EWR-LON flights with A321XLR's. These flights will compliment the JFK & BOS transatlantic ops.


They wouldn’t do it with the XLR. They would do it with the LR. No need for the extra range.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4895
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:15 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Separate post:

United made a big mistake in New York

Essentially they have retrenched significantly while giving the appearance of strengthening their Newark hub

Over the last decade, they have essentially made themselves worthless out of JFK and LaGuardia unless you were flying to one of their hubs. Then they closed JFK.

This allowed other airlines like Jetblue Virgin and Alaska to get into the Transcon business.

I long-ago predicted that the competition would follow them right to their drawbridge at the fortress in Newark...and now it has.

“12 daily from JFK and now 3 daily to Newark.” What a great advantage for Jetblue to advertise with that line.

Bravo to them. Bravo.

Perhaps one of the biggest moves they have made in the history of the company was made this morning

United didn't even jave their own Terminal at JFK. and really didn't make a lot of investment there TO have much of an operation. However? In EWR which is still and NYC area airport? They're Kickin' ASS!! and quite a few of their Alliance partners have followed them there and are doing quite well there as well. SO? What does that tell you? It tells me that JFK isn't the be all to end all and that Maybe EWR is in an even Better position to compete than we previously knew. United really shouldn't go back to JFK until the Airline Fort concept is canned for Normal terminals. . We have space at LGA EWR. PHL IAD and BOS. United can readily compete on the east coast though in my opinion we should have a florida gateway as well to connect down to Brazil and other parts of south America like we do out of IAH.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3269
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Major Expansion B6 at EWR and JFK

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't think A220s would be the kind of pressure that would scare off B6. After all, B6 have been co-existing pretty well with DL on JFK-ATL. Very profitable route for them.


Agreed. I don't see DL throwing the kitchen sink at B6 on these routes, although I could be wrong. The A220 would be a moderate competitive response to make sure DL has a great product in the market.

tphuang wrote:
I don't know what JetBlue's plans are with their own A220s. But if DL ends up running A220-100 against B6 running A220-300 on the same route, it will be a huge problem for DL. It will be 30 more seat and about the same overall operating cost (lower fuel cost, but higher staffing cost all the way around)


To be honest, I don't see B6 causing anything near a "huge problem" for DL in JFK-MSP/DTW. The reason these are some of the smallest hub-to-hub routes for DL (with 4-5 daily flights, largely on aircraft under 150 seats) is that the higher volume and value of traffic in the local markets prefers LGA, where DL dominates both routes. That leaves JFK to cater to some smaller, lower value O&D traffic plus connections from MSP, DTW, and small Midwestern markets to secondary European destinations, Africa, etc. B6's not going to take a significant amount of that connecting traffic away from DL because they and their partners don't fly to most of the markets on either end.
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