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AntonioMartin
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Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:46 am

I was wondering exactly that question...

I was thinking, obviously pre-covid 19, why wouldn't Aeroflot for example, or other Russian airlines, use the An-225 in passenger service?

At the very least, they could claim having the largest airplane in history in service, topping both 747 and A380 user airlines...

And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

Thanks for your answers, God bless everyone!
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:53 am

Ummmmmm... because it's a one-off cargo plane that has no accomodation for passengers?
That's completely outside of the dozens of other fairly obvious reason, amounting to the fact that it'd be terrible for the job?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:57 am

There is one one flying. It is an incredibly expensive plane to fly with six inefficient engines. It was customized for rough field performance carrying either a shuttle or heavy military loads.

It is the same reason the C-17 will never serve as s passenger plane. High variable costs, poorly optimized for passenger duty, and only useful if carrying specialized cargo.

The AN-225 makes money hauling unique huge cargo. Against any semi modern widebody, it is going to be bankrupted. Even the 767.
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AntonioMartin
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:19 am

lightsaber wrote:
There is one one flying. It is an incredibly expensive plane to fly with six inefficient engines. It was customized for rough field performance carrying either a shuttle or heavy military loads.

It is the same reason the C-17 will never serve as s passenger plane. High variable costs, poorly optimized for passenger duty, and only useful if carrying specialized cargo.

The AN-225 makes money hauling unique huge cargo. Against any semi modern widebody, it is going to be bankrupted. Even the 767.
Lightsaber

Oh I see!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:25 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Ummmmmm... because it's a one-off cargo plane that has no accomodation for passengers?
That's completely outside of the dozens of other fairly obvious reason, amounting to the fact that it'd be terrible for the job?

A one off cargo plane built to transport the Buran space shuttle.
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:34 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.
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AntonioMartin
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:09 am

prebennorholm wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.


That makes sense now...but I have a question..was it around some 35 years ago? Because if it was then I could really see Aeroflot perhaps flying it when Ukraine was part of the USSR..
Last edited by AntonioMartin on Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:10 am

32andBelow wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Ummmmmm... because it's a one-off cargo plane that has no accomodation for passengers?
That's completely outside of the dozens of other fairly obvious reason, amounting to the fact that it'd be terrible for the job?

A one off cargo plane built to transport the Buran space shuttle.


I had no idea only one was made! You learn something new everyday I guess!
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:21 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
That makes sense now...but I have a question..was it around some 30 years ago? Because if it was then I could really see Aeroflot perhaps flying it when Ukraine was part of the USSR..


Back in the days of the USSR every civilian aircraft, from cropdusters to big airliners, was considered Aeroflot. It was the only airline, but it wasn't run like a commercial airline. It didn't need to make profit for example, it just needed to provide it's services. The name Aeroflot literally means air fleet since that's what it was, the air fleet of the country.

So yes, back in those days the AN-225 was considered Aeroflot. But it was under a special department of Aeroflot. It was operated where and when needed, but it was built for a specific role and the Soviets kept it that way. It was never designed as a passenger aircraft and thus they didn't use it as such.

The Soviets had other aircraft that were more suitable as passenger aircraft, such as the Tu-154, the IL-62 and the IL-86. The latter was the largest Soviet airliner in service and it was more than big enough for the passenger demand. They didn't need anything bigger.
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:56 am

lightsaber wrote:
There is one one flying. It is an incredibly expensive plane to fly with six inefficient engines. It was customized for rough field performance carrying either a shuttle or heavy military loads.

It is the same reason the C-17 will never serve as s passenger plane. High variable costs, poorly optimized for passenger duty, and only useful if carrying specialized cargo.

The AN-225 makes money hauling unique huge cargo. Against any semi modern widebody, it is going to be bankrupted. Even the 767.
Lightsaber


I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance. I agree that there's no way an AN-225 would be a cost effective passenger plane.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:03 am

Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.
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conaly
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:34 am

prebennorholm wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.


Well, technically. If you read the whole story, it was more or less Russian. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was one country anyway and aviation industry was split between design bureaus like Tupolev, Ilyushin, Antontov, Yakovlev etc. and manufacturing plants Ulyanovsk (today Aviastar), Voronezh (today OAC) Kiev (today Antonov) or Saratov (defunct today). Also, the the money all came from Moscow and it didn't matter at all, in which city a design bureau or manufacturing plant was located in, as it was never expected, that certain areas could be in another country at some point (that was actually one of the reasons, why the Crimea was "gifted" to Ukraine – it was the same country anyway so no loss there).

Antonov itself was actually founded in Novosibirsk, Russia in 1946 with head engineer Oleg Antonov, a Russian guy. The design bureau only moved to Kiev in 1952 because, as mentioned, it didn't matter at all in which part of the country it was located politically. The An-124 was assembled in Ulyanovsk and in Kiev, while the An-225 final assembly was only done in Kiev. And again: it didn't matter, where.

As the story went in an unexpected direction with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the An-225 was stored in Kiev and therefore registered by Ukraine after their independence, but just saying "it is a Ukrainian plane" without mentioning the history is just not right. It is not purely Ukrainian and without Russia (and money from Moscow), this plane wouldn't even exist. Like some later Antonov planes (the An-70 for example), the design and constructions were carried by Ukraine and Russia together. It's only after the 2014 crisis, that both countries don't cooperate anymore on aircraft design (and any other topic).


Back to topic: As a passenger aircraft, the An-225 was probably not necessary. There has been no demand for a huge airliner with a capacity of 500+ people, neither in the Soviet Union, nor in Russia or Ukraine. If they would've needed one, they'd have given an assignment to one of the mentioned design bureaus to design a dedicated aircraft for that purpose and not modify an existing one. It could've been based on an existing plane, but probably wouldn't have been retrofitted with seats. I'm not even sure, if the An-225 cargo area was fully pressurized. From the An-124 I know, that is was not fully pressurized during flight, therefore passengers could only be accommodated in the rear cabin, which is above the cargo area in the back of the airplane. According to various sources, it could've fit up to 88 passengers there. I don't know, if the An-225 has a similar compartment tohugh.

I've never seen anything alike with the An-124 or An-225, but some companies did actually retrofit the designated cargo aircraft Il-76 with a 3-3 seating layout for passenger flights.
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JibberJim
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:41 am

glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


But think of the turnaround times, you get everyone sat in their pallets outside, then straight in on the lifts, no messing around with people standing in the aisles stuffing things in lockers, you wouldn't need to hold the plane for any cleaning between flights (an even bigger gain now!) you could probably simplify baggage handling too by putting the bags for the passengers in the same pallet as the passenger.

The extra utilization would be important of course as there's only the one plane.
 
AleksW
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:14 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.

Anything that was developed in the 80-s is not Ukrainian. And it was one country before 1991. The only Ukrainian there is registration. Ok, and flag.
Last edited by AleksW on Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:16 pm

glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


So instead make a giant plexiglass passenger pod and mount it on the dorsal pylons! It would be like flying on a giant 6 engined wonkavator.
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airboeingbus
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:25 pm

The AN 225 does have a small passenger cabin at the rear of the plane you can see it in this video from about 07:30. https://youtu.be/PxLnocbqQX0
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:05 pm

AleksW wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.

Anything that was developed in the 80-s is not Ukrainian. And it was one country before 1991. The only Ukrainian there is registration. Ok, and flag.

But it wasn't Russian either. If anything, it was "Soviet".
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

An-225 isn't Russian. It's Ukrainian.

Built By Antonov in Ukraine.
Operated by Antonov Airlines, Ukraine.
Registered on Ukrainian aircraft register as UR-82060.

For a brief period of time, when it was a shuttle carrier, and later while mothballed, it was on the Soviet register as CCCP-82060. It was never Russian.



Antonov IS a Russian company (Novosibirsk) that was moved to Ukraine back during the days of the USSR (1952) . Oleg Antonov himself was Russian and was in charge of the An-124 and An-225 programs.
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:53 pm

Is seem to remember that for the smaller four engined An-124 there was some cabin kit with seating platforms on the main deck? Like in two levels of seats? Like double deck seat pallets.
But that was meant to be some high capacity military troop hauler with not much comfort but seats. Not sure if it was ever serious or more of some demonstrator?
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:07 pm

Slightly off topic but before the collapse of the Soviet Union there were proposals to build a passenger carrying version of the An-124 (An-418) to compete with the 747, with a mid wing design. Would've been interesting to see. Here's a link to the configuration and short article.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... an-418.htm
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:27 pm

Passenger aircraft are designed to be flown frequently and as efficiently as possible to maximize as much profit from ticket sales as possible. It is also designed to work within the limitations of a crowded passenger terminal. The AN-225 was designed to be flown as needed with huge volumes of freight or oversized items are needed to be moved. Items such as yacht hulls, large aircraft components, military hardware, or giant pallets of humanitarian goods being shipped from one point directly to another. A good comparison would be using a large recreational vehicle which is designed to be driven to a campsite and parked, to transport kids to and from school, little league, with stops at the post office and supermarket. Not the right job for an RV.
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:32 pm

Noshow wrote:
Is seem to remember that for the smaller four engined An-124 there was some cabin kit with seating platforms on the main deck? Like in two levels of seats? Like double deck seat pallets.
But that was meant to be some high capacity military troop hauler with not much comfort but seats. Not sure if it was ever serious or more of some demonstrator?


Not sure if it's an option on the A124, but it sure is an option for the IL76. The troop transport mod involves a second level of seats above the main deck. Takes a couple hours to make a regular IL76 into a double decker.
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mach144
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:12 pm

Former Soviet Union (now Russia) has built many biggest things in aviation: the largest helicopter Mil V-12; the fastest SST Tu-144; the heaviest bomber Tu-160 Blackjack; the heaviest cargo plane An-225,... but none of them was designed (except Tu-144 ) for civil use. They designed aeroplanes for military use at first mind. Soviet civil aerodromes didn't follow civil aviation development, especially when jet age came... That's why all Soviet planes have so sturdy undercarriage (for example Tu-154, IL-76). Despite cheap airline tickets in Soviet Union there was no mass air travel like in the West; ordinary people must have some special reason (and permission) to went outside their region...
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:55 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
I was wondering exactly that question...

I was thinking, obviously pre-covid 19, why wouldn't Aeroflot for example, or other Russian airlines, use the An-225 in passenger service?

At the very least, they could claim having the largest airplane in history in service, topping both 747 and A380 user airlines...

And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

Thanks for your answers, God bless everyone!


It does fly passenger services, to a degree, just using only the very small cabin upstairs. That’s for engineers and staff needed for the journey and other necessary people.

DW had a reporter fly on it to Perth - she put together a pretty decent report about the plane. You can find it on YouTube.

Obviously for regular passenger use the AN-124 and 225 are unsuitable. They are built for carrying very oversized cargo, the things you cannot put on a 747F or 777F.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:12 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Ummmmmm... because it's a one-off cargo plane that has no accomodation for passengers?
That's completely outside of the dozens of other fairly obvious reason, amounting to the fact that it'd be terrible for the job?


Just to nitpick, but the An-225 and An-124 do have passenger cabins up in the ceiling. AFAIK, the aft upper deck and fore upper decks are only connected via an unpressurized access. More for paratroopers or tankers accommodating their tanks than actual passenger use.


tu204 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Is seem to remember that for the smaller four engined An-124 there was some cabin kit with seating platforms on the main deck? Like in two levels of seats? Like double deck seat pallets.
But that was meant to be some high capacity military troop hauler with not much comfort but seats. Not sure if it was ever serious or more of some demonstrator?


Not sure if it's an option on the A124, but it sure is an option for the IL76. The troop transport mod involves a second level of seats above the main deck. Takes a couple hours to make a regular IL76 into a double decker.


I'm pretty sure it's a standard on all An-124s. Never seen it on the Il-76, do you have photos of it?
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:04 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
I was wondering exactly that question...

I was thinking, obviously pre-covid 19, why wouldn't Aeroflot for example, or other Russian airlines, use the An-225 in passenger service?

At the very least, they could claim having the largest airplane in history in service, topping both 747 and A380 user airlines...

And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

Thanks for your answers, God bless everyone!

the AN-225 was built for Cargo service only like the C-5A It could probably haul passenger and loads of them However? Who and How would you put in a commercial passenger interior? and al the lavs that go with it? that airplane only HAS I lavatory for the crew and NO flushing system!! you'd have to install OUT HOUSES on it! You really could have done some research beforevyou asked this.
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:06 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:

I had no idea only one was made! You learn something new everyday I guess!



Well, you know what they say about that one.

If you have seen one, you have seem them all...
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:08 am

The A380 would still have the record, unless you cramed people on top of each other in that cargo plane. An all economy, minimal pitch, minimal seat width A380 should be able to seat more than 800, maybe even 1000 PAX.
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:08 am

VSMUT wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Is seem to remember that for the smaller four engined An-124 there was some cabin kit with seating platforms on the main deck? Like in two levels of seats? Like double deck seat pallets.
But that was meant to be some high capacity military troop hauler with not much comfort but seats. Not sure if it was ever serious or more of some demonstrator?


Not sure if it's an option on the A124, but it sure is an option for the IL76. The troop transport mod involves a second level of seats above the main deck. Takes a couple hours to make a regular IL76 into a double decker.


I'm pretty sure it's a standard on all An-124s. Never seen it on the Il-76, do you have photos of it?


http://www.puzatik76.narod.ru/cargo_cabin.html

Suprised there's not more photos. Not the best quality either but you get the idea of how comfortable this configuration is for someone with claustrophobia.
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VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:16 am

tu204 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Not sure if it's an option on the A124, but it sure is an option for the IL76. The troop transport mod involves a second level of seats above the main deck. Takes a couple hours to make a regular IL76 into a double decker.


I'm pretty sure it's a standard on all An-124s. Never seen it on the Il-76, do you have photos of it?


http://www.puzatik76.narod.ru/cargo_cabin.html

Suprised there's not more photos. Not the best quality either but you get the idea of how comfortable this configuration is for someone with claustrophobia.


Haha, just the way I imagined it!
 
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
There is one one flying. It is an incredibly expensive plane to fly with six inefficient engines. It was customized for rough field performance carrying either a shuttle or heavy military loads.

It is the same reason the C-17 will never serve as s passenger plane. High variable costs, poorly optimized for passenger duty, and only useful if carrying specialized cargo.

The AN-225 makes money hauling unique huge cargo. Against any semi modern widebody, it is going to be bankrupted. Even the 767.
Lightsaber


I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance. I agree that there's no way an AN-225 would be a cost effective passenger plane.


Well, it's a decision that is almost impossible to make. The planes (An-124 and An-225) were designed in Ukraine (under USSR, but still). The D-18T engines for them were designed in Ukraine (again, under USSR, but still). The design house of Antonov, and its small series plant, are in Kiev, Ukraine. The Ivchenko design house and Motor-Sich manufacturing plant are in Zaporizhia, Ukraine.
The distance between these two is a grand total of 500 km. The engines were designed for the planes, and the planes were optimized around engines. And vice versa, ad infinitum.
Motor-Sich folks are always there to fix and upgrade, and existing engine pool rotation is a well-understood, known quantity.
They are intertwined.

What is out there, to beat this offering and relationship?
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:20 pm

Spacepope wrote:
glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


So instead make a giant plexiglass passenger pod and mount it on the dorsal pylons! It would be like flying on a giant 6 engined wonkavator.


I *think* this may have been meant as a joke, but WHOA! Maybe you're on to something!

Modular cabins that are loaded separate from the plane, then physically mounted to the plane at departure time. You could have more pods than planes, and you could have different kinds of pods, right sized for the market. Lots of people want to fly first class today? Add two first class pods! No one? Add an economy pod.

Someone needs to call Airbus and Boeing about this. :)
 
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ro1960
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:29 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
I was wondering exactly that question...

I was thinking, obviously pre-covid 19, why wouldn't Aeroflot for example, or other Russian airlines, use the An-225 in passenger service?

At the very least, they could claim having the largest airplane in history in service, topping both 747 and A380 user airlines...

And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

Thanks for your answers, God bless everyone!


This video compares the AN-225 with the A380 and sheds some light on why the Ukrainian behemoth is not well suited for passenger transport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLkOdN3OT-U
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VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:44 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance.


It was discussed here not too long ago. There just simply is not engine that delivers as much power at the same weight as the D-18T. The D-18T is very light weight, the closest western offering weighs several tons more. The entire purpose of these freighters is to lift a massive payload whatever the cost, not economically. You don't airlift a train or a transformer station because it is cheap or economical, you do it because it is the only way. Putting on more efficient western engines that eat up 12 tons of payload is just a no-go, because customers for these big boys are more than happy to pay for an inefficient heavy lift that has to stop for fuel 3 times between Europe and India.


Phosphorus wrote:
Well, it's a decision that is almost impossible to make. The planes (An-124 and An-225) were designed in Ukraine (under USSR, but still). The D-18T engines for them were designed in Ukraine (again, under USSR, but still). The design house of Antonov, and its small series plant, are in Kiev, Ukraine. The Ivchenko design house and Motor-Sich manufacturing plant are in Zaporizhia, Ukraine.
The distance between these two is a grand total of 500 km. The engines were designed for the planes, and the planes were optimized around engines. And vice versa, ad infinitum.
Motor-Sich folks are always there to fix and upgrade, and existing engine pool rotation is a well-understood, known quantity.
They are intertwined.

What is out there, to beat this offering and relationship?


There is a bit more to it. The An-124 was also built in Ulyanovsk, and no major Soviet era project was developed without extensive assistance from the central aerohydrodynamic institute or the Gromov institute, so saying that it was designed in Ukraine is a bit meh. For better or worse, the Soviets spread the development and production of major programs far and wide.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:48 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
I was wondering exactly that question...

I was thinking, obviously pre-covid 19, why wouldn't Aeroflot for example, or other Russian airlines, use the An-225 in passenger service?

At the very least, they could claim having the largest airplane in history in service, topping both 747 and A380 user airlines...

And Russia being such a large country where millions do fly...

Thanks for your answers, God bless everyone!



Answering your question -- well, a decision to make An-225 a passenger plane was not Russia's to make.

However, Russia had an option of doing something even more impressive -- the KR-860 (Krylia Rosii -- Wings of Russia, 860 pax):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860
Russia had a school of passenger widebodies -- one of only three in the world, besides the US and Airbus. They had scale and territory. And they had huge assembly halls at Voronezh and Samara

Instead, they pooled all of their civil aviation effort into SSJ. A regional airplane, targeted at, ironically, same segment, as Antonov An-148, the only civil plane Ukraine was developing. They did not have a great success with SSJ, and missed all the opportunities in larger categories. But successfully scorched the earth for Antonov, I give you that.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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Phosphorus
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:56 pm

VSMUT wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance.


It was discussed here not too long ago. There just simply is not engine that delivers as much power at the same weight as the D-18T. The D-18T is very light weight, the closest western offering weighs several tons more. The entire purpose of these freighters is to lift a massive payload whatever the cost, not economically. You don't airlift a train or a transformer station because it is cheap or economical, you do it because it is the only way. Putting on more efficient western engines that eat up 12 tons of payload is just a no-go, because customers for these big boys are more than happy to pay for an inefficient heavy lift that has to stop for fuel 3 times between Europe and India.


Phosphorus wrote:
Well, it's a decision that is almost impossible to make. The planes (An-124 and An-225) were designed in Ukraine (under USSR, but still). The D-18T engines for them were designed in Ukraine (again, under USSR, but still). The design house of Antonov, and its small series plant, are in Kiev, Ukraine. The Ivchenko design house and Motor-Sich manufacturing plant are in Zaporizhia, Ukraine.
The distance between these two is a grand total of 500 km. The engines were designed for the planes, and the planes were optimized around engines. And vice versa, ad infinitum.
Motor-Sich folks are always there to fix and upgrade, and existing engine pool rotation is a well-understood, known quantity.
They are intertwined.

What is out there, to beat this offering and relationship?


There is a bit more to it. The An-124 was also built in Ulyanovsk, and no major Soviet era project was developed without extensive assistance from the central aerohydrodynamic institute or the Gromov institute, so saying that it was designed in Ukraine is a bit meh. For better or worse, the Soviets spread the development and production of major programs far and wide.


Well, indeed, TsAGI was instrumental in all wind tunnel testing in USSR. Doesn't mean the design was done there: they did the tests, returned with warnings, design house worked more; iterations. And series production allocation was MAP's to make, a design house could contribute its opinions -- who is more suited, but that's it.
Ulyanovsk did series of An-124, and that doesn't mean they understand it. Tashkent was the main place to build Il-76; without the design house, the production dissipated. And you probably wouldn't call Il-76 an Uzbek plane -- but if you say An-124 is Russian (which it isn't), then Il-76 is exclusively Uzbek :)
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
anrec80
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:17 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance. I agree that there's no way an AN-225 would be a cost effective passenger plane.


Oversize cargo moves, especially by air, are unique operations and the customers in that market are willing to pay substantial premium for a unique aircraft. The market is a niche one, and today's couple dozen of AN-124 and one AN-225 are enough to cover the demand. And their utilization is low.

Speaking of Westernization, different options were looked at, but the R&D and subsequent certification costs were huge. Antonov even looked into finishing building the second AN-225 (fuselage and wings for which they had at Kiev plant), but even the existing one isn't used enough.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:30 pm

glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


In what way is it closterphobic? Please explain?
 
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smithbs
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:12 pm

rbavfan wrote:
glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


In what way is it closterphobic? Please explain?


Palletized seats tend to have a very tight pitch, are very narrow and no aisle in the middle. It makes flying on Southwest feel luxurious. Whenever I flew by C-17 or C-130, I avoided the palletized seats and went straight for the side-wall seats.

Also, aircraft like that tend to lack niceties, like cabin insulation or paneling. It's all designed for soldiers, who are used to being crammed in like sardines. They are told to shut up and get on the airplane, which they do.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:01 pm

Like having your water cup freeze to the floor while your forehead sweats!
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:16 am

The competition among airliners is brutal, with efficiency being the most important metric. But there also is a size limit, as Airbus found out to their detriment. Even when the A380 was the most efficient plane available, few airlines wanted it. And even when the 787 and A350 were flying the A350 could have beaten them with the same seating density. But nobody wanted to do that. With the AN-225 being much bigger, much slower, and much less efficient, who would want it? Aeroflot certainly had no need for anything that big.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
69bug
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:03 am

I believe that the maindeck is also not pressurized..To be pressurized, the whole structure needs to be changed.

bug
 
Bostrom
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:11 am

anrec80 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have never understood why neither the AN-225 nor the AN-124 have been reengined with western engines. Besides improving the ton mile costs, better engines would increase range and improve field performance. I agree that there's no way an AN-225 would be a cost effective passenger plane.


Oversize cargo moves, especially by air, are unique operations and the customers in that market are willing to pay substantial premium for a unique aircraft. The market is a niche one, and today's couple dozen of AN-124 and one AN-225 are enough to cover the demand. And their utilization is low.

Speaking of Westernization, different options were looked at, but the R&D and subsequent certification costs were huge. Antonov even looked into finishing building the second AN-225 (fuselage and wings for which they had at Kiev plant), but even the existing one isn't used enough.


I doubt it would be worth the cost. The engines produce 230 kN thrust each so six Trent 500s or four Trent XWBs would do it, but there is probably a lot of work required to get it to work, and then getting it certified. And it would probably still cost more to operate compared to a Beluga XL or 777F.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:20 am

Could be the first passenger airliner where the in-flight entertainment is a game of basketball ?
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:23 pm

Bostrom wrote:

I doubt it would be worth the cost. The engines produce 230 kN thrust each so six Trent 500s or four Trent XWBs would do it, but there is probably a lot of work required to get it to work, and then getting it certified. And it would probably still cost more to operate compared to a Beluga XL or 777F.


You are correct on this one - these things are immensely costly to operate. And in addition to 6 engines, with all their maintenance costs, require a crew of 6.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Why doesn't the AN225 have passenger service?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:47 pm

D L X wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
glideslope wrote:
Palletized seating tends to be extremely clastrphobic.


So instead make a giant plexiglass passenger pod and mount it on the dorsal pylons! It would be like flying on a giant 6 engined wonkavator.


I *think* this may have been meant as a joke, but WHOA! Maybe you're on to something!

Modular cabins that are loaded separate from the plane, then physically mounted to the plane at departure time. You could have more pods than planes, and you could have different kinds of pods, right sized for the market. Lots of people want to fly first class today? Add two first class pods! No one? Add an economy pod.

Someone needs to call Airbus and Boeing about this. :)


Excellent effort. :checkeredflag:
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