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davidjohnson6
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:59 pm

The Swiss Govt are very strict on not allowing the Switzerland brand to be used on anything which is not from Switzerland. Any attempt by Lufthansa to have a "Swiss business class" brand on flights from Frankfurt to NYC (for example) would meet some fairly rapid resustance

Brussels Airlines is unlikely to revive the Sabena brand for 2 reasons
a) Sabena went busy and Belgians remember this. Why associate a company with something that failed ? Pan Am has been reincarnated a few times by former employees who want to relive the olden days - the rest of the world had moved on
b) If Brussels Airlines rebrands to Sabena, the courts may decide it is a legal successor to the old bankrupt company and thus legally liable for any past debts incurred in the bankruptcy. Best not to even risk that happening - instead keep legal ownership of the old brand to prevent competitors playing games, but do not use the old brand in commercial activities
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:03 pm

Different brands/AOCs are not so much a problem. If they’re lean, it’s not really an issue to do a different paint job.

Regarding the BRU market, it’s a difficult one. Given how profitable the LH/UA/AC JV is, i reckon that SN’s TATL flying must be profitable. As I suspect the Africa flying is. As they barely break even, the crux must be in the European flying. I believe I read they wanted to cut down on night stops to reduce costs. However this threatens the hub...
 
fraT
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:39 pm

Neither Swiss nor Lufthansa are the issues within Lufthansa Group. So there is absolutely no need to let go either of these brands.
Also Austrian is a well established brand and important for the market Austria so I highly doubt that they will let it go.
SN Brussels is a relatively new brand but I also see no gain to rename it since it would hurt them in Belgium.
So in total, all of these brands make sense. Eurowings is a bit of a different story. Of course the Lufthansa brand has a much better standing but that would mean that they would need to pay the EW staff with LH tariffs which would make it hard to be profitable.
 
LJ
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:06 pm

fraT wrote:
So in total, all of these brands make sense. Eurowings is a bit of a different story. Of course the Lufthansa brand has a much better standing but that would mean that they would need to pay the EW staff with LH tariffs which would make it hard to be profitable.


To be honest, I still associate Eurowings with the old Eurowings flying those ATRs despite knowing it's a totally different airline today.
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:18 am

airhansa wrote:
LJ wrote:

airhansa wrote:
Though this entire thing is driven by nationalism and what I believe is the problem with Europe's aviation market. What's needed is brand and airline consolidation - and LH really ought to be just two brands, LH and EW.


Multiple brands does have its benefit. You can position them differently. For example, Swiss has probably a higher standing than Lufthansa. Should you alienate those passengers?


It would be nice to know why SWISS has a higher standing than Lufthansa, and try to replicate the profitable parts. For example, would "SWISS CLASS" as a business class product on LH planes work? Are the passengers primarily intercity for whom a "Lufthansa SWISS shuttle" would cater for?

But going back to Brussels Airlines. It isn't a long standing brand anyway. If you're looking to maintain ties to Africa and sustain a classic brand, then bring back the SABENA brand for Africa flights. You could have all other flights out of BRU operated by Lufthansa.


Maybe Swiss has a higher standing because it offers a better product and is based in a market with healthy yields? Don't forget that LH also has FRA to deal with, a congested and ugly hub with little appeal to the passengers. MUC on the other hand is an airport that should be LH's future. It's simple, beautiful and very practical.
 
Noshow
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:29 am

Frankfurt is not congested anymore since they built some additional runway for landings. And Frankfurt has a very central location with feeding main Autobahns next and high speed rail from both the populated Rhein-Ruhr-area and the Mannheim-Stuttgart-area. I agree it feels dated and lacks some comfort but for functionality it's very much okay.

Munich is more chic and modern (and clean I have to say) but sort of hard to get to by land. Try the train to downtown for starters. No high speed anywhere. The new built pretty good high speed rail line to Berlin even bypasses the airport for some strange reason.
 
DDR
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:38 am

oldannyboy wrote:
DDR wrote:
Based on the country size and geography, there is no reason for a Belgium to have a flag carrier. There are enough flights from other carriers to Brussels to satisfy demand. Although I will always miss SABENA.


Really.?.
Same goes for Holland, Luxemburg, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, and even Denmark I would suppose then??. Not to mention weaker economies like Moldova, the Baltics.... Heck even all of Portugal then should be flying on IB via MAD. And whilst we're at it, how about Ireland and EI?? Better have the Irish fly via LHR on BA. And they even have FR after all.


Your post is just silly and not based on facts. Look at the comments in this thread, I’m not alone in my beliefs. I’m not even going to discuss the countries you brought up in your “post.” Slovenia? LOL
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:02 am

Noshow wrote:
Frankfurt is not congested anymore since they built some additional runway for landings. And Frankfurt has a very central location with feeding main Autobahns next and high speed rail from both the populated Rhein-Ruhr-area and the Mannheim-Stuttgart-area. I agree it feels dated and lacks some comfort but for functionality it's very much okay.

Munich is more chic and modern (and clean I have to say) but sort of hard to get to by land. Try the train to downtown for starters. No high speed anywhere. The new built pretty good high speed rail line to Berlin even bypasses the airport for some strange reason.


Have you traveled through Frankfurt in summer? I have at least 50 times since 2006 and almost every time in the past few years we were sitting in the plane between 10 and 75 minutes waiting for a gate or a remote stand to open up. The situation last summer (so before corona) was especially bad. FRA was saved in a way by corona as this summer would be have been even worse than the last one. Hopefully they finish the new terminal soon so that the overall experience could be improved. The fourth runway might have helped but don't forget that ramp and apron space is not that big which is why there are so many delays on the ground.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:24 am

Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked. Thanks.
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:33 am

SQ22 wrote:
Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked. Thanks.


How exactly is anything off topic? Everything debated here has to do with LH, LH Group, their hubs and SN. All of these are related one to the other.
 
devron
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:58 am

The only thing going for SN is its Africa flights and lobbyists traveling on day trips to Brussels (the lounge is full of them). Lobbyists don't fill planes and 10 (expensive) seats per plane just don't make it profitable. Africa seem to make a profit but LH can question how much of that can they do from other hubs and reduce expensive complexity.

But Eurowings seems to be the real sucker in the LH group but they can't seem to be admitting their failure of this LCC and lack of competitive advantage vs Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz, et al.
 
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qf789
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:59 am

Blerg wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked. Thanks.


How exactly is anything off topic? Everything debated here has to do with LH, LH Group, their hubs and SN. All of these are related one to the other.


As already pointed keep to the topic, if you have an issue with moderation email us at [email protected] , it doesn’t belong in the thread
Forum Moderator
 
airhansa
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:21 am

I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands? The question that needs to be asked is how much of the PAX on SN are traveling because it's Belgium's national airline? I doubt it's that many.

From my perspective, national airlines are an inefficient brand. It's akin to being called "MTV" or "Radio Capital" when you could adopt a different brand name and attract new consumers in a internet age where they want more than TV and radio.

A potential I could see for BRU is for it to become a low cost base for the region taking into account the high quality rail links. Alternatively as long as the the stars aligned it could become a transatlantic hub for an Asian carrier.
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am

airhansa wrote:
I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands? The question that needs to be asked is how much of the PAX on SN are traveling because it's Belgium's national airline? I doubt it's that many.

From my perspective, national airlines are an inefficient brand. It's akin to being called "MTV" or "Radio Capital" when you could adopt a different brand name and attract new consumers in a internet age where they want more than TV and radio.

A potential I could see for BRU is for it to become a low cost base for the region taking into account the high quality rail links. Alternatively as long as the the stars aligned it could become a transatlantic hub for an Asian carrier.


Lufthansa wanted to transform them into Eurowings but there was strong opposition, this idea was eventually dropped. Unfortunately SN kept on struggling which wasn't a good thing for them. We will have to see how things turn out in the end but the fact LCCs are not slowing down in Brussels isn't helping SN.
 
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Terrier79
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:34 am

The fact that Lufthansa has not yet reached an agreement on government support for their Belgian subsidiary could be a sign that they're working on alternative "solutions".

Folding down the airline as they did with Germanwings and lately Sunexpress Germany is not off the table in my opinion as the overall Corona situation will force them to assess the situation unemotionally. If the Belgian government wanted to renationalize the airline, it should be a matter of the price tag. A few hundred millions of cash would help Lufthansa Group to reduce their billions of debts and they'd no longer have to invest management capaciity into their little loved SN airline. I do not see an other airline group taking over SN in the current situation.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:09 pm

Are slots at Brussels Airport available for airlines wanting to start services at peak times ? Wondering if BRU slots have much worth and what that could mean for the value of Brussels Airlines
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:14 pm

Terrier79 wrote:
The fact that Lufthansa has not yet reached an agreement on government support for their Belgian subsidiary could be a sign that they're working on alternative "solutions".

Folding down the airline as they did with Germanwings and lately Sunexpress Germany is not off the table in my opinion as the overall Corona situation will force them to assess the situation unemotionally. If the Belgian government wanted to renationalize the airline, it should be a matter of the price tag. A few hundred millions of cash would help Lufthansa Group to reduce their billions of debts and they'd no longer have to invest management capaciity into their little loved SN airline. I do not see an other airline group taking over SN in the current situation.


The union approval to reduce staff is useful but it's not a long-term solution.

Brussels Airlines has clinched an agreement with employee representatives which will see the company shed 25% of its workforce, the airline announced Friday.

Departing employees will be put on a 12-month outplacement scheme to support and oversee their transition to a new job, Brussels Airlines said in a press release.


https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/ ... ronavirus/

Shrinking the airline is unlikely to reduce CASK (and improve competitiveness and profits). Wage and benefit reductions (with a promise to maintain headcount) would, IMHO, have been a better solution. Shrink SN and it becomes even less relevant. This is going to come down to how much the Belgian state is willing to loan or invest trying to maintain staff count and the 'prestige' of a national carrier, and if LH can live with that structure and restrictions.
 
GLANKG
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:38 am

airhansa wrote:
I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands?


So do you think Eurowings should fold business now since they are by far the worst performing airline within LHG?

airhansa wrote:
From my perspective, national airlines are an inefficient brand. It's akin to being called "MTV" or "Radio Capital" when you could adopt a different brand name and attract new consumers in a internet age where they want more than TV and radio.


So do you think brands like Air France/Deutsche Lufthansa/British Airways/LOT Polish Airlines are already yesterday's business concept?
 
airhansa
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:27 pm

GLANKG wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands?


So do you think Eurowings should fold business now since they are by far the worst performing airline within LHG?


Yes actually. I'm in favor of consolidating brands in Europe, and LH is probably one of the top tier brands (as opposed to the likes of BA). If I was in charge, I'd replace the Africa flights with the SABENA brand and try to transfer-integrate those flights with LH, either by departing LH flights from BRU or moving SN flights to FRA/MUC.

I would try to transform BRU into the "AMS" of the low-cost world, acting as a somewhat cheaper alternative to low cost flights from the British Isles and Scandinavia. I'd also probably try to form an agreement with an Asian airline to turn BRU into a transatlantic hub.

airhansa wrote:
From my perspective, national airlines are an inefficient brand. It's akin to being called "MTV" or "Radio Capital" when you could adopt a different brand name and attract new consumers in a internet age where they want more than TV and radio.


So do you think brands like Air France/Deutsche Lufthansa/British Airways/LOT Polish Airlines are already yesterday's business concept?


Lufthansa isn't there because of its nationality though but its superior product. BA is hanging by a thread because it has a near-monopoly on LON to JFK flights and "British" means nothing more than "I FLY LDN". LOT is famous not for its nationality but for its cheapness.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm

GLANKG wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands?


So do you think Eurowings should fold business now since they are by far the worst performing airline within LHG?


The interesting question is, what part of EW’s business is so badly performing. I found it curious that when they announced that LH would take over the commercial responsibility for long haul nearly at the same time they announced to break even this year (all pre Corona). So I was like, oh the long haul must be a money pit. (See also all of the restructuring that they did).

And as EasyJet is apparently losing 60-70mn on German domestic flights, it’s highly likely that EW is losing money, too. However, this business has significant strategic value for LH.
 
airhansa
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:28 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
GLANKG wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I agree that it's preferable to keep profitable brands, but what's the point in keeping unprofitable brands?


So do you think Eurowings should fold business now since they are by far the worst performing airline within LHG?


The interesting question is, what part of EW’s business is so badly performing. I found it curious that when they announced that LH would take over the commercial responsibility for long haul nearly at the same time they announced to break even this year (all pre Corona). So I was like, oh the long haul must be a money pit. (See also all of the restructuring that they did).

And as EasyJet is apparently losing 60-70mn on German domestic flights, it’s highly likely that EW is losing money, too. However, this business has significant strategic value for LH.


If all airlines are losing money then maybe the prices are way to low for profitability?

Alternatively there might still be a market for tour operators (e.g. TUI) in countries that don't speak English widely due to the language barrier.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:41 pm

airhansa wrote:
If all airlines are losing money then maybe the prices are way to low for profitability?


Maybe. What do you see as the solution for that? Regulated prices?

I see carriers who can't make money progressively liquidating, and so capacity removed from the market until supply and demand clear for the remaining carriers. SN might not be one of those surviving carriers.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:44 pm

Are the traffic rights from BRU to West Africa specific to a Belgian airline or good for the whole EU? Could someone like Norwegian set up shop and start flying BRU-FIH tomorrow?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:01 am

VictorKilo wrote:
Are the traffic rights from BRU to West Africa specific to a Belgian airline or good for the whole EU? Could someone like Norwegian set up shop and start flying BRU-FIH tomorrow?


Ah, after pages of "experts suggestions" to relocate their network, somebody finally pops the question.

All their African routes are governed by belgian bilaterals under which the government gets to select the designated carrier. Pretty much like it was done before deregulation. The country has a notorioisly big portfolio of these bilateraltraffic rights, second to only France and contrary to AF, SN isnt maxed out on their traffic rights yet...

Lufthansa can not move their flights out, nor come in to take them over in BRU. It has to be SN.
Period.
 
airhansa
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 am

seansasLCY wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I would actually agree with the proposal to turn re-brand the airline as "Eurowings" and have it serve as a primarily low cost airline with flights to Africa and the UK/Scandinavia. It could directly compete with KLM and AMS. A premium product could be used on flights to Africa.

Furthermore, I don't think it's silly to suggest that Belgians could take the train to AMS to CDG. Remember than LON to AMS has a larger market share on rail than by air.


LON to AMS has a large share of passengers using the train over the plane? Are you sure? There are only two daily direct trains compared with pre-Corona at least 10 daily LCY-AMS alone.

There are also flights from LHR (BA and KLM), LGW (BA and EasyJet), STN (EasyJet), LTN (EasyJet) and SEN (EasyJet). I’d find it very hard to believe more passengers were traveling by train than at least 30 daily flights.


I have no idea where I got that information from. I just remember reading something about Eurostar having beaten air travel on the Amsterdam route and how the Eurostar staff were surprised it happened so quickly.
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:49 am

sabenapilot wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Are the traffic rights from BRU to West Africa specific to a Belgian airline or good for the whole EU? Could someone like Norwegian set up shop and start flying BRU-FIH tomorrow?


Ah, after pages of "experts suggestions" to relocate their network, somebody finally pops the question.

All their African routes are governed by belgian bilaterals under which the government gets to select the designated carrier. Pretty much like it was done before deregulation. The country has a notorioisly big portfolio of these bilateraltraffic rights, second to only France and contrary to AF, SN isnt maxed out on their traffic rights yet...

Lufthansa can not move their flights out, nor come in to take them over in BRU. It has to be SN.
Period.


Why can't the Belgian government designate EW as the airline to operate these flights? Or does it have to be an airline registered in Belgium? Maybe Air Belgium could get a few flights since they are so lucrative.
 
LJ
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:12 am

airhansa wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I would actually agree with the proposal to turn re-brand the airline as "Eurowings" and have it serve as a primarily low cost airline with flights to Africa and the UK/Scandinavia. It could directly compete with KLM and AMS. A premium product could be used on flights to Africa.

Furthermore, I don't think it's silly to suggest that Belgians could take the train to AMS to CDG. Remember than LON to AMS has a larger market share on rail than by air.


LON to AMS has a large share of passengers using the train over the plane? Are you sure? There are only two daily direct trains compared with pre-Corona at least 10 daily LCY-AMS alone.

There are also flights from LHR (BA and KLM), LGW (BA and EasyJet), STN (EasyJet), LTN (EasyJet) and SEN (EasyJet). I’d find it very hard to believe more passengers were traveling by train than at least 30 daily flights.


I have no idea where I got that information from. I just remember reading something about Eurostar having beaten air travel on the Amsterdam route and how the Eurostar staff were surprised it happened so quickly.


The train has a small share between The Netherlands and London. What you've probably read is that the train has been very popular and its share is growing rapidly. However, even with the increase to 5 daily trains (now on hold due to COVID-19), it will never match the capacity by air. What is expected that especially RTM - LON will suffer as the train will be a viable alternative for those not wanting to do a daytrip to London (which means mostly leisure). Should Eurostar be able to offer an early arrival in London, then it will be really become an alternative for many.

Your comment is valid for Belgium - London.
 
Jetty
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:19 am

sabenapilot wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Are the traffic rights from BRU to West Africa specific to a Belgian airline or good for the whole EU? Could someone like Norwegian set up shop and start flying BRU-FIH tomorrow?


Ah, after pages of "experts suggestions" to relocate their network, somebody finally pops the question.

All their African routes are governed by belgian bilaterals under which the government gets to select the designated carrier. Pretty much like it was done before deregulation. The country has a notorioisly big portfolio of these bilateraltraffic rights, second to only France and contrary to AF, SN isnt maxed out on their traffic rights yet...

Lufthansa can not move their flights out, nor come in to take them over in BRU. It has to be SN. Period.

Germany and other carriers don’t have the same traffic rights because its carriers were never interested in flying to those African destinations, not because African countries want to limit European air connections. The mere suggestion is bizarre: most African countries have no local carrier flying to Europe, why would they want to limit connectivity? :shock: Name me one European airline that wanted to fly to an African destination but couldn’t because of a traffic right issue.

Moreover many traffic rights to Africa that do exist are unused because Africa is still very much an underdeveloped continent with little economic appeal.
 
factsonly
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 am

Jetty wrote:

Africa is still very much an underdeveloped continent with little economic appeal.


Uhm,.........but........ air travel is the most important transportation mode in Africa ............with some of the most attractive yields !!!!

https://books.google.nl/books?id=Gq41Dw ... ca&f=false

:stirthepot:
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:25 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Are the traffic rights from BRU to West Africa specific to a Belgian airline or good for the whole EU? Could someone like Norwegian set up shop and start flying BRU-FIH tomorrow?


Ah, after pages of "experts suggestions" to relocate their network, somebody finally pops the question.

All their African routes are governed by belgian bilaterals under which the government gets to select the designated carrier. Pretty much like it was done before deregulation. The country has a notorioisly big portfolio of these bilateraltraffic rights, second to only France and contrary to AF, SN isnt maxed out on their traffic rights yet...

Lufthansa can not move their flights out, nor come in to take them over in BRU. It has to be SN.
Period.



Thanks for the information on the traffic rights.

LH could keep a shell SN afloat, a small airline serving only Africa, with the LH group doing all other flying from BRU.

Or they could shut the whole thing down and conclude that the Africa flying isn’t profitable enough to keep a shell afloat, and let whomever pick it up.
 
LJ
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:35 pm

Jetty wrote:
Moreover many traffic rights to Africa that do exist are unused because Africa is still very much an underdeveloped continent with little economic appeal.


Little economic appeal to whom? Why do KLM, Air France, Emirates and Turkish have (pre-COVID-19 such a large presence in Africa if it has "little economic appeal" (not to mention Ethopian). It may be less developed, but things are changinig in Africa.
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:19 pm

Could A321neo(LR, XLR) reach all points in Africa to which SN flies right now?
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm

Jetty wrote:
Germany and other carriers don’t have the same traffic rights because its carriers were never interested in flying to those African destinations, not because African countries want to limit European air connections. The mere suggestion is bizarre: most African countries have no local carrier flying to Europe, why would they want to limit connectivity? :shock: Name me one European airline that wanted to fly to an African destination but couldn’t because of a traffic right issue.

Moreover many traffic rights to Africa that do exist are unused because Africa is still very much an underdeveloped continent with little economic appeal.
This is a bizarre take.

Africa has some of the highest yield routes. The only reason you do not see as much traffic is that:
1. Africa does not have the capital Europe/Asia/Americas have. There is a good reason why this remains the case either through internal political issues/corruption and/or outside meddling that means that these nations are always fighting so that the post colonial plunder can continue. High interest rates and management teams stealing the hell out of airlines is what makes these airlines not compete.

2. There is still some sense when it comes to money. None of this negative/zero interest rate regime we see in Japan and Europe, soon to be the USA. None of these artificially low rates to prop up economies that should have gone into recession a long time ago.

3. There is a lot of protectionism at play when it comes to Africa. Look at how few open skies agreements exist, or how they charge differently when it comes to state owned airlines and privately owned airlines even within the continent. You might want to see how many frequencies Emirates/Qatar are doing to South Africa/Kenya/Nigeria before you talk about how little economic appeal exists in the continent. Or look at some of the fares that the European airlines are charging.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:49 pm

Lufthansa and Belgian government reach deal over Brussels Airlines.

The agreement will see Lufthansa receive €290 million from the Belgium state, to be paid back before mid-2026. In return, the German parent will invest €170 million in the restructuring and recapitalization of the Belgian carrier.

The restructuring plan presented by Brussels Airlines includes a revision of the network to cut the marginal routes ‒ about 22. This will allow a reduction of the fleet to 38 aircraft, from the current 54. The drop in capacity will consequently be accompanied by a cut of a quarter of the workforce.

https://simpleflying.com/brussels-airlines-rescue-deal/
mercure f-wtcc
 
behramjee
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:04 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Lufthansa and Belgian government reach deal over Brussels Airlines.

The agreement will see Lufthansa receive €290 million from the Belgium state, to be paid back before mid-2026. In return, the German parent will invest €170 million in the restructuring and recapitalization of the Belgian carrier.

The restructuring plan presented by Brussels Airlines includes a revision of the network to cut the marginal routes ‒ about 22. This will allow a reduction of the fleet to 38 aircraft, from the current 54. The drop in capacity will consequently be accompanied by a cut of a quarter of the workforce.

https://simpleflying.com/brussels-airlines-rescue-deal/


So any more African routes slated to be on the chopping block? From what I see, BJL ROB and FNA should be the prime suspects.
 
ZX357
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Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:43 pm

If Lufthansa really wants to increase its share of the African market, South African Airways is practically for sale.
 
Conti764
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:28 pm

ZX357 wrote:
If Lufthansa really wants to increase its share of the African market, South African Airways is practically for sale.


Flying over all of Africa to have your clients backtrack? Then they'd better go for an XL-Korongo.
 
Conti764
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:30 pm

behramjee wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Lufthansa and Belgian government reach deal over Brussels Airlines.

The agreement will see Lufthansa receive €290 million from the Belgium state, to be paid back before mid-2026. In return, the German parent will invest €170 million in the restructuring and recapitalization of the Belgian carrier.

The restructuring plan presented by Brussels Airlines includes a revision of the network to cut the marginal routes ‒ about 22. This will allow a reduction of the fleet to 38 aircraft, from the current 54. The drop in capacity will consequently be accompanied by a cut of a quarter of the workforce.

https://simpleflying.com/brussels-airlines-rescue-deal/


So any more African routes slated to be on the chopping block? From what I see, BJL ROB and FNA should be the prime suspects.


Doubtful. Prime suspects are the short to medium haul destinations inherited from the Thomas Cook operation and airports too small to succesfuly operate an A319.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13350
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Re: Reports: LH might let SN file for bankruptcy

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:33 am

airhansa wrote:
BA is hanging by a thread because it has a near-monopoly on LON to JFK flights

What is AvGeeks' obsession with using the word "monopoly" in situations that aren't monopolistic?


Jetty wrote:
Africa is still very much an underdeveloped continent with little economic appeal.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Where on earth are you getting that from?


ZX357 wrote:
South African Airways is practically for sale.

I get that it's a joke: but unfortunately, there's little more to sell than a tarnished brand. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:45 am

ZX357 wrote:
If Lufthansa really wants to increase its share of the African market, South African Airways is practically for sale.

An airline that is a financial drain that is beyond repair?

Seriously one would be better off setting up a whole new airline in South Africa than buying SAA

Michael
 
Conti764
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:40 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
ZX357 wrote:
If Lufthansa really wants to increase its share of the African market, South African Airways is practically for sale.

An airline that is a financial drain that is beyond repair?

Seriously one would be better off setting up a whole new airline in South Africa than buying SAA

Michael


SN tried twice to set up an African daughter, first AirDC and afterwards Korongo. The first time they failed because the partners behind the project weren't exactly trustworthy, the second time the company was too small to cope with challenges an airline (especially in Africa) faces.

If the Lufthansa Group would want to build up presence in Africa, they could either go for an extended partnership (or even a joint venture) with Ethiopian but then they'd clip the wings of their own daughter company Brussels Airlines.

In that case, they'd better have a joint venture with all members their members and an already excisting, but smaller airline like Rwandair. Have all group members fly multiple times a week into Kigali where the Rwandese government is also (going to) build(ing) a new airport and have Rwandair fly pax further to (secondary) African airlines, alongside the excisting SN, LX and LH destinations in subsaharian Africa. Rwandair has quite a nice (small) fleet of modern aircraft.

In the meantime Rwandair could fly their three A330's to non-LH Group destinations in Europe (AMS, CDG, LGW,...) within the joint venture.
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:46 pm

Rwandair (and Kigali Airport ?) are in a partnership with QR

So any collaboration with LH Group is probably off the table
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5736
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:21 pm

Conti764 wrote:

If the Lufthansa Group would want to build up presence in Africa, they could either go for an extended partnership (or even a joint venture) with Ethiopian but then they'd clip the wings of their own daughter company Brussels Airlines.


Not so much really. ET is hubbed in East Africa with SN focused on West Africa. They actually compliment each other in several markets.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
Conti764
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:20 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Conti764 wrote:

If the Lufthansa Group would want to build up presence in Africa, they could either go for an extended partnership (or even a joint venture) with Ethiopian but then they'd clip the wings of their own daughter company Brussels Airlines.


Not so much really. ET is hubbed in East Africa with SN focused on West Africa. They actually compliment each other in several markets.


I can imagine ET has quite the portfolio in Western-Africa as well?
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:02 pm

But ADD would be a huge backtracking for the North American passengers plus it would be a 2-stop-connection so I don't think this is an attractive solution.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:11 pm

People really should look at a map of Africa. You wouldn’t say JFK is an effective place to transfer TYO-SFO pax.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5736
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:27 pm

Conti764 wrote:

I can imagine ET has quite the portfolio in Western-Africa as well?


Yes, they do but LOS-ADD is over 2400nm due east. That's the nearest West African destination of size from ADD. Kind of out of the way for LOS-Europe. Now, throw in SN W. Africa-Europe, and ET W. Africa-ADD-the rest of their network and the Star thing, SN compliments ET in a lot of ways. And lest we forget Egypt Air and their CAI ops, for what that is worth. Star could really cover most of Africa with those 3 co-operating.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
Conti764
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:32 pm

I always thought ET flew to much more Euro destinations than they actually do according to Wikipedia. Pretty limited offer to Europe all in all. And as such it indeed doesn't overlap much with SN.
 
berari
Posts: 917
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:18 am

Conti764 wrote:
I always thought ET flew to much more Euro destinations than they actually do according to Wikipedia. Pretty limited offer to Europe all in all. And as such it indeed doesn't overlap much with SN.


ET covers a good chunk of large/capital cities in Europe, primarily in western Europe. Impressive in itself. You can't compare ET to SN in Europe, in the same way that you wouldn't compare SN's African network with that of ET's.
 
Blerg
Topic Author
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Re: Updated: LH to restructucture SN

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:30 am

We can discuss their potential in Africa as much as we want to but if the airline is unable to turn a profit then we have to wonder if it even has a future. In the end I think they will be shut down and replaced by Eurowings. Competition in Brussels is just too tough and they have shown that they don't have a answer how to respond to it.

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