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airhansa
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What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:18 pm

Virtually all major legacy carriers will leave Gatwick Airport this year. Norwegian are all over the place and TUI is seeking help from the German government. It looks like LGW will become yet another low cost hub for London. I cannot understand how London will be able to sustain so many low cost hubs. Do you think that LGW will steal enough low cost traffic to cause another London hub to fall?
 
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DL717
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:32 pm

They’ll shift the runway about 50-feet and call it good. This will allow both runways to operate simultaneously. Think half of LAX.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
jamsco99
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:42 pm

airhansa wrote:
Virtually all major legacy carriers will leave Gatwick Airport this year. Norwegian are all over the place and TUI is seeking help from the German government. It looks like LGW will become yet another low cost hub for London. I cannot understand how London will be able to sustain so many low cost hubs. Do you think that LGW will steal enough low cost traffic to cause another London hub to fall?


do you think BA will pull out?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:47 pm

airhansa wrote:
I cannot understand how London will be able to sustain so many low cost hubs.


For how long do you expect 45 million passengers just won't be flying to London? If there's any big world market that's been capacity-constrained for a long time, it's LON.
 
jghealey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:59 pm

Each hub serves different purposes and different airlines. LHR is the premium hub and BA's fortress (with VS as well), LGW has always been mainly home to easyJet, STN is Ryanair, LTN is easyJet and now Wizz Air. All these airlines are large and it would be impossible for them to consolidate their hubs given the size of their operations. None of those airlines are going anywhere. I would say Luton is at most risk here but Wizz Air are constantly expanding.

You could already say that LGW is a low cost hub - easyJet still dominates and BA LGW is also distinctly 'low cost'. VS arguably was its only 'premium' carrier, but their operations were so small anyway that the difference is negligible. TUI's ops at LGW are also small.

Put simply, all London's airports are here to stay.
 
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bombayduck
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:12 pm

Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.
 
chonetsao
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:17 pm

LGW has always been LHR's relief hub. Airlines that can not get a slot or additional slots from LHR, or can not afford LHR's higher fees comes to LGW first. Easyjet is here because of their purchase of BA's low cost airlines and then BMed routes. It is predominately a leisure airport that is focused on O&D.

LGW needs to reinvent itself. Possibly to accept the fate of a single runway airport with a brand new terminal to replace the North and South terminal, plus a low cost terminal in where the North terminal is now. The South Terminal today is definitely not designed for post Covid-19 travel with the limited spaces. Something needs to happen.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:02 pm

I think the poster materially misunderstands the London market. Demand to/from London is almost unprecedented world-wide, it joins NY as the only "Alpha ++" city. While for inbound traffic "London" may seem adequate, as they all have relatively good surface transport to Zone 1, those who live in the South East will have distinct preferences, usually based on where their work/homes are and how they get to the airport. There will always be demand from "LON" airports, getting across London can be very difficult by any means of transport.

Of the 46 million using LGW last year the vast majority were O&D, that demand should return as global travel recovers.

chonetsao wrote:
LGW has always been LHR's relief hub. Airlines that can not get a slot or additional slots from LHR, or can not afford LHR's higher fees comes to LGW first. Easyjet is here because of their purchase of BA's low cost airlines and then BMed routes. It is predominately a leisure airport that is focused on O&D.

LGW needs to reinvent itself. Possibly to accept the fate of a single runway airport with a brand new terminal to replace the North and South terminal, plus a low cost terminal in where the North terminal is now. The South Terminal today is definitely not designed for post Covid-19 travel with the limited spaces. Something needs to happen.


In the 90s BA tried to grow LGW into true hub, partly because many of their routes to key US destinations were 'stuck' at Gatwick. They marketed it as the hub without the hubbub, I think. But other than that LGW has always been predominantly an O&D airport, often leisure focussed and charter airlines, with the likes of Monarch, TUI/Thomson/Britannia, Thomas Cook, etc having major bases. easyJet did not buy any of BA's low-cost airlines for LGW slots, Go was based at STN and purchased from 3i, BMED was purchased from the GB group. easyJet moved into Gatwick when BA dismantled the LGW hub after EU-US Openskies and 9/11.

With falling revenue the last thing LGW (or any sensible airport) needs to do is tear down perfectly adequate terminals. They can reconfigure and remove much of the shopping malls and restaurants, if they need to. But to suggest they need to "reinvent" is naive. Posters need to realise what LGW is, a 45million passengers per annum, predominantly O&D airport in one of the worlds largest and wealthiest cities. Prior to COIVD slots were selling for ~3 million a pair. While not as glamorous or healing grabbing as LHR, LGW is a sustainable airport with plenty of demand and good yield - especially in the short haul area.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:42 pm

London is an overcrowded place with a huge amount of demand. Even if some airlines fail or leave, others will take their place. The only difference it will make it that it might be slightly less crowded for the next few years.
 
Antarius
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:59 pm

bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


So, how do you define "actual"?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
jamsco99
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:08 pm

chonetsao wrote:

LGW needs to reinvent itself. Possibly to accept the fate of a single runway airport with a brand new terminal to replace the North and South terminal, plus a low cost terminal in where the North terminal is now. The South Terminal today is definitely not designed for post Covid-19 travel with the limited spaces. Something needs to happen.


Why would they knock down 2 terminals that they've spent over £1billion refurbishing in the last 5 years?

"Post covid-19 travel with limited space" Is that your long term outlook? Social distancing for the next 10 years plus?
 
jghealey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:33 pm

jamsco99 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

LGW needs to reinvent itself. Possibly to accept the fate of a single runway airport with a brand new terminal to replace the North and South terminal, plus a low cost terminal in where the North terminal is now. The South Terminal today is definitely not designed for post Covid-19 travel with the limited spaces. Something needs to happen.


Why would they knock down 2 terminals that they've spent over £1billion refurbishing in the last 5 years?

"Post covid-19 travel with limited space" Is that your long term outlook? Social distancing for the next 10 years plus?

Exactly, and in the meantime, number of travellers is reduced anyway allowing for some element of social distancing. Though you could argue, if you're going to be on the plane centimetres from each other then social distancing at the airport is basically pointless. You also need to ask yourself, where LGW is going to get the money from in the short term, and obviously the project would be finished way after restrictions are ending.

As others are saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with LGW's terminals. I flew from the North Terminal often before Covid and it was a pleasant experience - efficient, clean and relatively spacious. Although not the architectural marvels of Heathrow T2 or 5, there is no need to knock down terminals that serve their purposes more than well enough already.
 
f4f3a
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Iv always thought it odd when most of LHR traffic goes onto somewhere else why lgw couldn't be a hub . Before low-cost you had bcal hub and Dan air had a massive presence . With those airlines gone and BA taking over what was left lgw always played second fiddle. Lgw was always holiday flying or those they couldn't fit into LHR . Long haul will be much reduced there now with no Norwegian and BA and virgin gone
 
Vicenza
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:53 pm

DL717 wrote:
They’ll shift the runway about 50-feet and call it good. This will allow both runways to operate simultaneously. Think half of LAX.


What on earth are you talking about......or don't you know?
 
Vicenza
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:57 pm

bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


What exactly are ''actual' airports? London has four whether you choose you accept it or not. As for being pendantic, it's actually faster to get into London from Gatwick, than from Heathrow
 
Galwayman
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:28 pm

Delighted to see Gatwick become another successful lcc hub. Can't imagine many Londoners will be keen to use overpriced heathrow in the future after the current Nasty Airways activities
 
Galwayman
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:31 pm

Vicenza wrote:
bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


What exactly are ''actual' airports? London has four whether you choose you accept it or not. As for being pendantic, it's actually faster to get into London from Gatwick, than from Heathrow


London has five airports
 
CrawleyBen
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:32 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Iv always thought it odd when most of LHR traffic goes onto somewhere else why lgw couldn't be a hub . Before low-cost you had bcal hub and Dan air had a massive presence . With those airlines gone and BA taking over what was left lgw always played second fiddle. Lgw was always holiday flying or those they couldn't fit into LHR . Long haul will be much reduced there now with no Norwegian and BA and virgin gone


Has something official come out about BA leaving Gatwick for good then? I still work full time at LGW and have been advised BA are planning to resume Ops from there in August, so maybe it's best to wait and see about whether they do drop long haul flying etc or not.

Ben
 
SEU
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:41 pm

CrawleyBen wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
Iv always thought it odd when most of LHR traffic goes onto somewhere else why lgw couldn't be a hub . Before low-cost you had bcal hub and Dan air had a massive presence . With those airlines gone and BA taking over what was left lgw always played second fiddle. Lgw was always holiday flying or those they couldn't fit into LHR . Long haul will be much reduced there now with no Norwegian and BA and virgin gone


Has something official come out about BA leaving Gatwick for good then? I still work full time at LGW and have been advised BA are planning to resume Ops from there in August, so maybe it's best to wait and see about whether they do drop long haul flying etc or not.

Ben


Ive been told different by someone who works for BA at LGW, a letter from the union has stated otherwise.
 
fcogafa
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:48 pm

Many LGW routes are moving to LHR, at least in the short term

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 70931.html
 
chonetsao
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:58 pm

jamsco99 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

Why would they knock down 2 terminals that they've spent over £1billion refurbishing in the last 5 years?

"Post covid-19 travel with limited space" Is that your long term outlook? Social distancing for the next 10 years plus?


Read again, I am talking about South Terminal is not designed for post Covid19 travel with it limited space. You are misquoting me.

Yes, some form of social distancing, or rather, people allowed per square footage will stay even 10 years after now. Once Covid19 is gone, the science community will focus on how to prevent the next pandemic, and the density of travel related spaces will be discussed. Future airport and train station design will take account of density in waiting rooms (gates). Ease of congestion and a maximum of people per square footage may be recommended. It won't be as ridiculous as 6 feet apart or even 3 feet apart. However, I have no doubt some form of crowd control will be suggested.
 
Antarius
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:03 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


What exactly are ''actual' airports? London has four whether you choose you accept it or not. As for being pendantic, it's actually faster to get into London from Gatwick, than from Heathrow


London has five airports


Six, even, if you include Southend.

LHR, LGW, LCY, STN, LTN, SEN
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
StTim
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:11 pm

The major issue for Gatwick is its location. It is appallingly placed for most residents of the south east of England. For low cost traveller to Europe the cost of getting to/from the airport is a critical factor.
 
chonetsao
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:12 pm

jghealey wrote:
Exactly, and in the meantime, number of travellers is reduced anyway allowing for some element of social distancing. Though you could argue, if you're going to be on the plane centimetres from each other then social distancing at the airport is basically pointless. You also need to ask yourself, where LGW is going to get the money from in the short term, and obviously the project would be finished way after restrictions are ending.

As others are saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with LGW's terminals. I flew from the North Terminal often before Covid and it was a pleasant experience - efficient, clean and relatively spacious. Although not the architectural marvels of Heathrow T2 or 5, there is no need to knock down terminals that serve their purposes more than well enough already.


When was last time you were in South Terminal? If you have the unfortunate experience to fly BA, you have to walk all the way to the end of check-in area, then go upstairs walk half way to security check. The queue is unbelievable long, even for fast track. Once in you have to walk through a very narrow entrance to find a shopping mall jammed with travellers or a long corridor up and down to BA lounges. The gate area is 1970's fell with low ceiling. Then you enter an enclosed gate after scanning your boarding pass. A space of roughly 1200 to 2000 Square feet of waiting area for a full B777 which could be 250 people. You wait here for anywhere between 45 minutes to 1 hour before you can board. Now we have A321 in leisure configuration that can carry almost 220 people. LGW South terminal is just not designed for a post Covid environment. It is LGWs intention to build a new terminal should the second runway is approved. However, LGW needs to build the new terminal even without the second runway. It is even more urgent now if both BA and VS are leaving. LGW needs to attract as many airlines and passengers as possible. A modern facility will certainly help.
 
chonetsao
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:13 pm

StTim wrote:
The major issue for Gatwick is its location. It is appallingly placed for most residents of the south east of England. For low cost traveller to Europe the cost of getting to/from the airport is a critical factor.


It has the best railway linkage and adequate National Express coaches.
 
jghealey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:15 pm

chonetsao wrote:
jghealey wrote:
Exactly, and in the meantime, number of travellers is reduced anyway allowing for some element of social distancing. Though you could argue, if you're going to be on the plane centimetres from each other then social distancing at the airport is basically pointless. You also need to ask yourself, where LGW is going to get the money from in the short term, and obviously the project would be finished way after restrictions are ending.

As others are saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with LGW's terminals. I flew from the North Terminal often before Covid and it was a pleasant experience - efficient, clean and relatively spacious. Although not the architectural marvels of Heathrow T2 or 5, there is no need to knock down terminals that serve their purposes more than well enough already.


When was last time you were in South Terminal? If you have the unfortunate experience to fly BA, you have to walk all the way to the end of check-in area, then go upstairs walk half way to security check. The queue is unbelievable long, even for fast track. Once in you have to walk through a very narrow entrance to find a shopping mall jammed with travellers or a long corridor up and down to BA lounges. The gate area is 1970's fell with low ceiling. Then you enter an enclosed gate after scanning your boarding pass. A space of roughly 1200 to 2000 Square feet of waiting area for a full B777 which could be 250 people. You wait here for anywhere between 45 minutes to 1 hour before you can board. Now we have A321 in leisure configuration that can carry almost 220 people. LGW South terminal is just not designed for a post Covid environment. It is LGWs intention to build a new terminal should the second runway is approved. However, LGW needs to build the new terminal even without the second runway. It is even more urgent now if both BA and VS are leaving. LGW needs to attract as many airlines and passengers as possible. A modern facility will certainly help.


Ah ok, I fly easyJet much more often than LGW BA so the last time I was in the South Terminal was actually 2016. North terminal which I have used many times has improved so much recently however and it's really a pleasure to use - I perhaps naively assumed South would be more of the same
 
jghealey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:19 pm

chonetsao wrote:
StTim wrote:
The major issue for Gatwick is its location. It is appallingly placed for most residents of the south east of England. For low cost traveller to Europe the cost of getting to/from the airport is a critical factor.


It has the best railway linkage and adequate National Express coaches.

It does indeed, I've found LGW is actually easier to get to central London than LHR - the train is so much quicker than the tube from LHR and it's still reasonably priced. And switching between terminals on the Heathrow Express at LHR to get on the right tube is also an absolute pain!
 
StTim
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:27 pm

jghealey wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
StTim wrote:
The major issue for Gatwick is its location. It is appallingly placed for most residents of the south east of England. For low cost traveller to Europe the cost of getting to/from the airport is a critical factor.


It has the best railway linkage and adequate National Express coaches.

It does indeed, I've found LGW is actually easier to get to central London than LHR - the train is so much quicker than the tube from LHR and it's still reasonably priced. And switching between terminals on the Heathrow Express at LHR to get on the right tube is also an absolute pain!


From central London I wouldn't disagree. But most low cost travellers are coming from central London.

From the North or West of London it is a pain to get to.

I can do it by rail with a change. I can do Birmingham with no change.
I can do Luton in less than 30 mins.
I can do LHR in about 60.

STN also a pain is actually slightly better for me than LGW.
 
JibberJim
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:29 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Iv always thought it odd when most of LHR traffic goes onto somewhere else why lgw couldn't be a hub


Why would it be a hub? it's full doing O&D for South London and the South East. I can cycle or get a direct bus to LHR, but I'd still generally fly from LGW whenever I have a fair bit of luggage because it's easier to get to by car.

London does not need any more hub traffic, you can fly anywhere you want to without a change, and most LHR traffic does not go on, only about 1/3rd do, and part of that is due to the large amount of cheap seats in the back of LHR-NYC.
 
BlueTrue
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:42 pm

I travelled Gatwick to central London by train in January this year for £5.60 in about 32 minutes. What is the issue with that? The number of comments I read on this site about the issues/time/cost of getting from Gatwick into London really puzzles me. Do the people who make these posts know what they are talking about or are they just plainly anti Gatwick?
 
StTim
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:56 pm

BlueTrue wrote:
I travelled Gatwick to central London by train in January this year for £5.60 in about 32 minutes. What is the issue with that? The number of comments I read on this site about the issues/time/cost of getting from Gatwick into London really puzzles me. Do the people who make these posts know what they are talking about or are they just plainly anti Gatwick?


Once again - for UK based low cost travellers - they are not travelling from central London.

This is the dilemma for airlines. The originating travellers need easy access from the region. The travellers from abroad probably want to access London.

As I say Gatwick is almost my least favourite airport in the wider region. It takes circa 1hr 45 to drive depending on the nightmare that is the M25.

LTN (for me) is 30 mins. That is a reasonable taxi fare. Don't need to leave the car in the over priced airport car parks. LTN is a bit of a dive but usually from wheels on ground to key in the front door it is an hour.
 
MontyP
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:45 pm

StTim wrote:
jghealey wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

It has the best railway linkage and adequate National Express coaches.

It does indeed, I've found LGW is actually easier to get to central London than LHR - the train is so much quicker than the tube from LHR and it's still reasonably priced. And switching between terminals on the Heathrow Express at LHR to get on the right tube is also an absolute pain!


From central London I wouldn't disagree. But most low cost travellers are coming from central London.

From the North or West of London it is a pain to get to.

I can do it by rail with a change. I can do Birmingham with no change.
I can do Luton in less than 30 mins.
I can do LHR in about 60.

STN also a pain is actually slightly better for me than LGW.


Gatwick has a huge catchment area covering all of London south of the river plus lots of Surrey, Sussex, Kent etc. Including major cities such as Southampton, Portsmouth and Brighton which all have direct rail links. Very well connected by train - I live 11 miles from LHR and 30 from LGW but can get to LGW much quicker on public transport than to LHR. If you can get to LTN, STN or BHX quickly then by all means use those airports. But it doesn’t mean that Gatwick isn’t well-placed for many millions of people.
 
skipness1E
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 pm

Antarius wrote:
bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


So, how do you define "actual"?

As in “They are in London. On TFL. Within the M25.” That’s pretty much we see London, outside the Orbital Motorway lies the Home Counties and West Sussex holds Gatwick.

BTW, LGW is not hub for anyone, it’s overwhelmingly O&D.
 
skipness1E
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:51 pm

Talking about LGW’s catchment area is largely a wild goose chase because you also fall squarely into LHR’s catchment area which has an enormous overlap. Hence all things being equal, the market will want you to travel from LHR regardless if you live in Crawley as the critical mass of connections exist at LHR. It’s a about criticality of mass in connections for the big boys.
 
joeyw
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:11 pm

CrawleyBen wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
Iv always thought it odd when most of LHR traffic goes onto somewhere else why lgw couldn't be a hub . Before low-cost you had bcal hub and Dan air had a massive presence . With those airlines gone and BA taking over what was left lgw always played second fiddle. Lgw was always holiday flying or those they couldn't fit into LHR . Long haul will be much reduced there now with no Norwegian and BA and virgin gone


Has something official come out about BA leaving Gatwick for good then? I still work full time at LGW and have been advised BA are planning to resume Ops from there in August, so maybe it's best to wait and see about whether they do drop long haul flying etc or not.

Ben


Looks like BA is planning to outsource Gatwick if they do restart ops there...

(which to me looks like; it's an easy way to pick & choose when/if they restart LGW without committed/surplus staffing costs - I'd guess short-term they won't start LGW, medium possible return with short-haul and long-haul following VS to LHR).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-53069014
 
Antarius
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:43 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Antarius wrote:
bombayduck wrote:
Seeing as there are only two actual London airports, Heathrow cannot take much more. As for London City airport too short a runway and not enough stands. And before people moan about Heathrow, that airport is near Hounslow which is outer London. And if people want to get pedantic London City is the only that is in London itself.


So, how do you define "actual"?

As in “They are in London. On TFL. Within the M25.” That’s pretty much we see London, outside the Orbital Motorway lies the Home Counties and West Sussex holds Gatwick.

BTW, LGW is not hub for anyone, it’s overwhelmingly O&D.


A distinction without a difference. LGW is more of a London airport than LCY is.. by 40 million passengers.
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skipness1E
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:48 pm

Antarius wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Antarius wrote:
So, how do you define "actual"?

A distinction without a difference. LGW is more of a London airport than LCY is.. by 40 million passengers.

No idea what you mean, something lost in translation. I was simply explaining as someone who lives IN London, how we see the limits of London and why only two of the major airports are actually seen as in London. West Sussex is quite far out, Berekshire (LTN) and Essex (STN) even more so, but from a London perspective, they can be quite hard to get to. LHR and LCY are tube and DLR, the rest are by relatively expensive mainline rail. And before you ask, no one sensible uses the Heathrow Express unless you’re on expenses.
 
jfk777
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:13 am

When Heathrow demand "normalizes" BA and Virgin will probably bring back the "beach" flights to Gatwick. Barbados and Mickey Mouse don't need to use valuable LHR slots. Gatwick serves a vital role in London's airport ecosystem, it can support a healthy amount of Long Haul. Norwegian also plays a huge role at Gatwick, if it returns to what it was in 2019 than we get many red 787, lets hope so.
 
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DL717
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:55 am

Vicenza wrote:
DL717 wrote:
They’ll shift the runway about 50-feet and call it good. This will allow both runways to operate simultaneously. Think half of LAX.


What on earth are you talking about......or don't you know?


They won’t get a second runway, so they’ll move the on they have, increase separation, boost capacity by 20% and call it a day. That is Gatwick future. Or don’t you understand airfield capacity currently cripples LGW?
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jamsco99
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:07 am

chonetsao wrote:
jamsco99 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

Why would they knock down 2 terminals that they've spent over £1billion refurbishing in the last 5 years?

"Post covid-19 travel with limited space" Is that your long term outlook? Social distancing for the next 10 years plus?


Read again, I am talking about South Terminal is not designed for post Covid19 travel with it limited space. You are misquoting me.

Yes, some form of social distancing, or rather, people allowed per square footage will stay even 10 years after now. Once Covid19 is gone, the science community will focus on how to prevent the next pandemic, and the density of travel related spaces will be discussed. Future airport and train station design will take account of density in waiting rooms (gates). Ease of congestion and a maximum of people per square footage may be recommended. It won't be as ridiculous as 6 feet apart or even 3 feet apart. However, I have no doubt some form of crowd control will be suggested.



Of course it wont. The whole world is set up to make money and operate safely with no restrictions on quantity of people in a space (except for fire regs), they're not going to suddenly change this to help control a 1 in a 100 year pandemic which isnt even in humans yet.
Are they going to knock down millions of shops, bars, clubs, music venues, museums etc and rebuild them too as they're no longer profitable at their limited capacities ?
 
Bhoy
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:10 am

skipness1E wrote:
No idea what you mean, something lost in translation. I was simply explaining as someone who lives IN London, how we see the limits of London and why only two of the major airports are actually seen as in London. West Sussex is quite far out, Berekshire (LTN) and Essex (STN) even more so, but from a London perspective, they can be quite hard to get to. LHR and LCY are tube and DLR, the rest are by relatively expensive mainline rail. And before you ask, no one sensible uses the Heathrow Express unless you’re on expenses.

Surely Luton's in Bedfordshire rather than Berkshire?
 
jamsco99
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:13 am

If ba Is not back at gatwick they will increase the presence of level there
Wizz is after some gatwick slots
I still see Gatwick being a mix of legacy carriers such as Emirates, Qatar, tap, icelandair, turkish etc
low cost such as air transat, west jet, easy jet
Secondary national carriers such as pegasus.

Could any airlines move from stn to lgw?
 
jghealey
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:26 am

jamsco99 wrote:
If ba Is not back at gatwick they will increase the presence of level there
Wizz is after some gatwick slots
I still see Gatwick being a mix of legacy carriers such as Emirates, Qatar, tap, icelandair, turkish etc
low cost such as air transat, west jet, easy jet
Secondary national carriers such as pegasus.

Could any airlines move from stn to lgw?

And we've seen 'FlyLevel UK Ltd' being established registered under BA at Waterside. Does not bode well for BA's LGW ops:

https://twitter.com/Tim_the_Pilot/statu ... 33921?s=19

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10630383
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:41 am

DL717 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
DL717 wrote:
They’ll shift the runway about 50-feet and call it good. This will allow both runways to operate simultaneously. Think half of LAX.


What on earth are you talking about......or don't you know?


They won’t get a second runway, so they’ll move the on they have, increase separation, boost capacity by 20% and call it a day. That is Gatwick future. Or don’t you understand airfield capacity currently cripples LGW?


Don't you understand that many airlines/flights are pulling out of LGW due to to the current crisis, and it may be a while until they're back?

So, I think LGW will not be running at current max capacity for a while. No need to spend a load to move a runway.
The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut.
 
JibberJim
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:59 am

skipness1E wrote:
Talking about LGW’s catchment area is largely a wild goose chase because you also fall squarely into LHR’s catchment area which has an enormous overlap. Hence all things being equal, the market will want you to travel from LHR regardless if you live in Crawley as the critical mass of connections exist at LHR. It’s a about criticality of mass in connections for the big boys.


Critical Mass? I thought the number of destinations in normal times between the two airports was very close? There's a big difference in long haul, if you want to go long haul then LHR is the place to be, obviously that means if you want to go to Europe it's more likely that LGW will have a flight there.

skipness1E wrote:
Antarius wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
A distinction without a difference. LGW is more of a London airport than LCY is.. by 40 million passengers.

No idea what you mean, something lost in translation. I was simply explaining as someone who lives IN London, how we see the limits of London and why only two of the major airports are actually seen as in London.


but this sort of geography isn't so clear cut, what people see is not the same, for me LHR is not in London, only LCY is, but LCY is such an awful airport to travel to it's only once ever been worth doing so. So I have one airport in London, I have two airports I would recommend people use if they wanted to visit me and three others as long as the person was aware of the money and time of doing so, including knowing there's no chance I'd meet them at the airport. London's a big place, Londoners & VFR don't actually want to go to zone 1 they want to go to where they live, and until 6 months ago all the airports were needed.
 
BealineV953
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:27 am

BrianDromey wrote:

In the 90s BA tried to grow LGW into a true hub, partly because many of their routes to key US destinations were 'stuck' at Gatwick. They marketed it as the hub without the hubbub, I think.
easyJet did not buy any of BA's low-cost airlines for LGW slots.
Go was based at STN and purchased from 3i
BMED was purchased from the GB group.
easyJet moved into Gatwick when BA dismantled the LGW hub after EU-US Openskies and 9/11.



Hello.
Yes, when BA was trying to develop LGW as a hub it was marketed as 'the hub without the hubub'. As well as the ex-BCal US routes, the BA South American services were there at the time along with the Caribbean.
BMed was not purchased from the GB Group. Heathrow based BMed was a BA franchise. The franchise agreement gave BA right of first refusal when BMed put itself up for sale. BA did not exercise the option, and BMed was sold to bmi.
easyJet bought Gatwick based GB Airways in 2007. Again, the BA franchise agreement gave it right of first refusal when it put itself up for sale, and BA did not take up the option. If I remember rightly, GB Airways was owned by the Bland Shipping Group at the time (happy to be corrected if that's wrong). I'd call GB Airways a 'leisure' airline rather than a low cost carrier. The purchase did give easyJet a significant number of LGW slots.
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brilondon
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:35 am

[/quote]

What exactly are ''actual' airports? London has four whether you choose you accept it or not. As for being pendantic, it's actually faster to get into London from Gatwick, than from Heathrow[/quote]

How do you figure it's faster? Last time I checked it took me about 15 minutes to get to Paddington; 35 minutes from Gatwick, by train. I didn't care much for LGW, but it's been a few years.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
skipness1E
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:53 am

JibberJim wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Talking about LGW’s catchment area is largely a wild goose chase because you also fall squarely into LHR’s catchment area which has an enormous overlap. Hence all things being equal, the market will want you to travel from LHR regardless if you live in Crawley as the critical mass of connections exist at LHR. It’s a about criticality of mass in connections for the big boys.


Critical Mass? I thought the number of destinations in normal times between the two airports was very close? There's a big difference in long haul, if you want to go long haul then LHR is the place to be, obviously that means if you want to go to Europe it's more likely that LGW will have a flight there.

skipness1E wrote:
Antarius wrote:

No idea what you mean, something lost in translation. I was simply explaining as someone who lives IN London, how we see the limits of London and why only two of the major airports are actually seen as in London.


but this sort of geography isn't so clear cut, what people see is not the same, for me LHR is not in London, only LCY is, but LCY is such an awful airport to travel to it's only once ever been worth doing so. So I have one airport in London, I have two airports I would recommend people use if they wanted to visit me and three others as long as the person was aware of the money and time of doing so, including knowing there's no chance I'd meet them at the airport. London's a big place, Londoners & VFR don't actually want to go to zone 1 they want to go to where they live, and until 6 months ago all the airports were needed.

I said “critical mass in connections”.
Long haul operators can connect to feed, something almost non existent at LGW.
 
aamd11
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:37 pm

chonetsao wrote:
LGW needs to attract as many airlines and passengers as possible. A modern facility will certainly help.

While the first statement is absolutely true, I disagree with the second statement.

The passengers themselves won't really concern themselves with the state of the facility they are flying from or to. It's a consideration much further down the list than price and location. In many cases, you don't really have much of a say - if the airline/route you want to take only goes to LGW, you're not terribly likely to go to CDG because the facility is a bit more modern. You could perhaps connect somewhere along the way and land at LHR perhaps, but you're probably not going to do that if it's 10% more expensive, unless your final destination is much more convenient from LHR.

Then there are the airlines themselves. A brand new facility will cost an arm and a few legs, and it's got to be paid for somehow. That'll be passed on to airlines (and ultimately passengers) via increased landing fees and so on. You generally don't attract new airlines (and passengers) by increasing your fees. Premium facilities must attract premium traffic that's less sensitive to price. When your major operations are currently low cost airlines, you've got to be careful about increasing cost. And in the LON market especially, considering there are a number of alternatives in the region. For an Airline wishing to serve LON, if LGW gets too pricey, they could go to STN, LTN or even SEN instead.

"If you build it, they will come" is not a strategy for success in the airport business. It's just like most other bits of infrastructure - everyone would love for it to be shiny, new and well maintained but nobody wants to pay for it. See also: roads, bridges, railways, etc.
 
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DL717
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Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 pm

BlueberryWheats wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

What on earth are you talking about......or don't you know?


They won’t get a second runway, so they’ll move the on they have, increase separation, boost capacity by 20% and call it a day. That is Gatwick future. Or don’t you understand airfield capacity currently cripples LGW?


Don't you understand that many airlines/flights are pulling out of LGW due to to the current crisis, and it may be a while until they're back?

So, I think LGW will not be running at current max capacity for a while. No need to spend a load to move a runway.


So it will never return? All this doom and gloom people keep trotting about is getting silly. Some airlines will fail, but this isn’t a permanent condition. You don’t stop doing something with a short term view.
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