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LAXintl
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DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:46 am

DOT is out with order meant to limit Air India charter services to the U.S. which have been operating under the guise of "evacuation" flights.

DOT says while Air India has already operated or intends to operate nearly 100 services between the nations since late March, U.S. carriers have been denied similar approvals and prevented from making use of existing bilateral rights. India engaged in "discriminatory and restrictive practices"

In addition, DOT notes that while the Indian government suspended all scheduled international service on March 25th, it appears Air India has continued its "evacuation charters" as a way of circumventing the prohibition and operated equivalent of 53% of its previous scheduled flights to the U.S.with services freely available for sale to the public.

Accordingly, until further notice, Air India must obtain prior approval on case-by-case basis for its planned charters, and the DOT intends to exercise close scrutiny over the competitive imbalance and failure of the Indian government to remedy inconsistent manner U.S. carriers are treated.

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lightsaber
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:20 am

That seems a bit extreme not allowing US flights at half of schedule...

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airboss787
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:37 am

Wonder how that works. These flights aren’t really open to “everyone”. Just Indians who are eligible for evacuation. Interested to see how it goes. Does anyone know when the affected flights are applicable from?
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:35 am

airboss787 wrote:
Wonder how that works. These flights aren’t really open to “everyone”. Just Indians who are eligible for evacuation. Interested to see how it goes. Does anyone know when the affected flights are applicable from?


_if_ there is traffic both directions it is hardly an evacuation flight for Indians.
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avier
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:00 am

The repatriation flights for getting Indians from US to India is not freely open for everyone, including Indian passport holders themselves. It is done in coordination with the Indian embassies that prepare a list of pax that need to be repatriated and priority is given to people with urgent issues for travel back, who get a seat on the flight. This is because there is a huge backlog of people and so an open booking is not available for everyone. Also, in India, there is mandatory 14 day quarantine rules at any quarantine centre/Hotel etc. But since many of these are very full in big cities like Mumbai/Delhi, there are restrictions on number of people/flights arriving in the country/city by dates. So again, there has to be coordination with individual cities and their State govts over how many people can come in the city/state depending on available quarantine centers and their capacity.

Also, there are Visa and other restrictions currently in place , especially for certain OCI (Overseas citizen of India) card holders, who now cannot freely travel back to India like earlier until certain exemptions are made from the Indian ministry. And yes, only Indian passport holders are allowed for this flight, this is the main reason for not having an open online booking. Even most OCI card holders are not allowed.

Since this is a very complex process, only AI has been roped in. I doubt private airlines, especially American carriers, would be able to follow up with all these procedures in coordination with Indian Embassies and Civil Aviation Department of India. This whole process is purely done by the Govt of India and their departments/embassies, so only their own govt airline is operating these missions.
So try and understand before starting AI/India bashing here. :-)
Last edited by avier on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Blerg
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:03 am

Anyone know how many people flew on these repatriation flights? Not only on AI but other carriers as well.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:09 am

zeke wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
Wonder how that works. These flights aren’t really open to “everyone”. Just Indians who are eligible for evacuation. Interested to see how it goes. Does anyone know when the affected flights are applicable from?


_if_ there is traffic both directions it is hardly an evacuation flight for Indians.


Sure, but it is still carrying Indians from India too. A lot of OCI and foreign passport holders stuck in India if I am not mistaken. Does that not count if it is evacuating in both directions? Again, these flights aren’t open to just about anyone. There are tight controls over who is eligible and who isn’t.
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airboss787
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:11 am

Blerg wrote:
Anyone know how many people flew on these repatriation flights? Not only on AI but other carriers as well.


You can see the numbers here. Hardeep Puri publishes these numbers for all countries quite often. It’s pretty good.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HardeepSPuri
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:14 am

Same as PRC
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:12 am

Don't understand the drama, Can't see why United would want to evacuate Indians back to India, or why the Indian government would want to give an American airline its taxpayer-funded resources
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:30 am

airboss787 wrote:
Wonder how that works. These flights aren’t really open to “everyone”. Just Indians who are eligible for evacuation. Interested to see how it goes. Does anyone know when the affected flights are applicable from?
That's not entirely true. For phases 1 and 2, the pax were selected based on specific circumstances, but from phase 3, the flights have been available for sale to anyone on AI's website, basically a free for all. Even I booked a ticket this way. Probably this is what the DOT is finding fault with.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:34 am

avier wrote:
The repatriation flights for getting Indians from US to India is not freely open for everyone, including Indian passport holders themselves. It is done in coordination with the Indian embassies that prepare a list of pax that need to be repatriated and priority is given to people with urgent issues for travel back, who get a seat on the flight. This is because there is a huge backlog of people and so an open booking is not available for everyone. Also, in India, there is mandatory 14 day quarantine rules at any quarantine centre/Hotel etc. But since many of these are very full in big cities like Mumbai/Delhi, there are restrictions on number of people/flights arriving in the country/city by dates. So again, there has to be coordination with individual cities and their State govts over how many people can come in the city/state depending on available quarantine centers and their capacity.

Also, there are Visa and other restrictions currently in place , especially for certain OCI (Overseas citizen of India) card holders, who now cannot freely travel back to India like earlier until certain exemptions are made from the Indian ministry. And yes, only Indian passport holders are allowed for this flight, this is the main reason for not having an open online booking. Even most OCI card holders are not allowed.

Since this is a very complex process, only AI has been roped in. I doubt private airlines, especially American carriers, would be able to follow up with all these procedures in coordination with Indian Embassies and Civil Aviation Department of India. This whole process is purely done by the Govt of India and their departments/embassies, so only their own govt airline is operating these missions.
So try and understand before starting AI/India bashing here. :-)


Actually, as per an order a couple of weeks ago, many (most?) OCIs and foreign passport holders can take these flights, as long as at least one of their parents or spouse is an OCI holder as well. The restrictions on who can travel are being slowly lifted, and as I said in the above post, bookings are open to the general public.

Also, reg the capacity issue at local level, people traveling to cities without direct VB flights are allowed to arrive and quarantine at DEL or BOM and then take a domestic flight to their final destination.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:16 am

CPS001 wrote:
avier wrote:
The repatriation flights for getting Indians from US to India is not freely open for everyone, including Indian passport holders themselves. It is done in coordination with the Indian embassies that prepare a list of pax that need to be repatriated and priority is given to people with urgent issues for travel back, who get a seat on the flight. This is because there is a huge backlog of people and so an open booking is not available for everyone. Also, in India, there is mandatory 14 day quarantine rules at any quarantine centre/Hotel etc. But since many of these are very full in big cities like Mumbai/Delhi, there are restrictions on number of people/flights arriving in the country/city by dates. So again, there has to be coordination with individual cities and their State govts over how many people can come in the city/state depending on available quarantine centers and their capacity.

Also, there are Visa and other restrictions currently in place , especially for certain OCI (Overseas citizen of India) card holders, who now cannot freely travel back to India like earlier until certain exemptions are made from the Indian ministry. And yes, only Indian passport holders are allowed for this flight, this is the main reason for not having an open online booking. Even most OCI card holders are not allowed.

Since this is a very complex process, only AI has been roped in. I doubt private airlines, especially American carriers, would be able to follow up with all these procedures in coordination with Indian Embassies and Civil Aviation Department of India. This whole process is purely done by the Govt of India and their departments/embassies, so only their own govt airline is operating these missions.
So try and understand before starting AI/India bashing here. :-)


Actually, as per an order a couple of weeks ago, many (most?) OCIs and foreign passport holders can take these flights, as long as at least one of their parents or spouse is an OCI holder as well. The restrictions on who can travel are being slowly lifted, and as I said in the above post, bookings are open to the general public.

Also, reg the capacity issue at local level, people traveling to cities without direct VB flights are allowed to arrive and quarantine at DEL or BOM and then take a domestic flight to their final destination.


Very limited rules have been relaxed regarding OCI/Foreign nationals. They mostly concern minors, students, or spouses who have atleast one parent/spouse being an Indian national/passport holder. So that obviously doesn't benefit a lot of OCI couples or families who do not meet such criterias. Also foreign nationals need to have an Indian national parent or spouse to qualify for the same. So that's basically restricting most foreigners obviously.

Regarding quarantine in Mumbai/Delhi for all Int'l arrivals, including those with onward journey to smaller towns, I guess I clearly highlighted the reasons for limiting arrivals due to capacity crunch at such quarantine centres at the two cities. As all these long-haul flights land at BOM/DEL, it'd be impossible to quarantine such large number of people, where the entire countries long-haul arrivals need to be quarantined in either of the two cities of Mumbai/Delhi.

Have a look at this on Air India Website; where it clearly mentions on the MHA guidelines, that one has to register with an Indian Mission (or embassy) overseas to board these flights. Also mentions what category of OCI/Foreign nationals are allowed .
So basically, bookings are not open for all, atleast those coming from overseas to India.
http://www.airindia.in/evacuation-flight.htm
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:25 am

avier wrote:
Have a look at this on Air India Website; where it clearly mentions on the MHA guidelines, that one has to register with an Indian Mission (or embassy) overseas to board these flights. Also mentions what category of OCI/Foreign nationals are allowed .
So basically, bookings are not open for all, atleast those coming from overseas to India.
http://www.airindia.in/evacuation-flight.htm


Yes, but the way the system has been set up, anyone can book a ticket with AI (even if they don't meet any of the criteria) and then attempt to register with the consulate or embassy. The checking or cross checking occurs only at the airport, and this is based on personal experience .

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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:39 am

CPS001 wrote:
Yes, but the way the system has been set up, anyone can book a ticket with AI (even if they don't meet any of the criteria) and then attempt to register with the consulate or embassy. The checking or cross checking occurs only at the airport, and this is based on personal experience .

Which also means that they will be stopped at the airport and prevented from boarding the flight if they didn't meet the said criteria. So simply put, at the end of it, everyone has to meet the criteria for undertaking the journey to India and it isn't open for any and all, whether they managed to grab the ticket or not. And there were many such cases of OCI card holders not meeting the criteria and stopped from boarding such flights to India.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:54 am

avier wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Yes, but the way the system has been set up, anyone can book a ticket with AI (even if they don't meet any of the criteria) and then attempt to register with the consulate or embassy. The checking or cross checking occurs only at the airport, and this is based on personal experience .

Which also means that they will be stopped at the airport and prevented from boarding the flight if they didn't meet the said criteria. So simply put, at the end of it, everyone has to meet the criteria for undertaking the journey to India and it isn't open for any and all, whether they managed to grab the ticket or not. And there were many such cases of OCI card holders not meeting the criteria and stopped from boarding such flights to India.


Right, but the issue here is that anyone can book the ticket, not the fact that not everyone who books can fly. The DOT's issue is that the flights are open to anyone and everyone, regardless of who ends up flying. The setup for the first two phases is the most ideal, where AI directly contacted select individuals who had been approved, and directly gave them ticket info.

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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:22 pm

Tickets available via direct sales or through distribution systems

Delta has sought to operate similar services to India, but Govt of India has not been responsive to their request and formal objections registered by U.S. Embassy in May have failed to remedy the situation that U.S. carriers utilize the rights they hold.
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:06 pm

France imposed similar restriction, not allowing Air India to carry pax into France.

Original assumption was embassies/consulates of these destination countries and Ministry of External Affairs(India) were collaborating this effort to repat their citizens rather than outbound flights going empty. But it turned into a bootleg operation.

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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:17 pm

It’s time the US Govt gave a damn and looked out for us for once. Air India should not be putting these flights up for sale in the GDS and allowing people to fly to the US as part of the operation unless US carriers can operate their flights too.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:20 pm

who is flying on the flights out of DEL or BOM into NY or others?

Are those only US residents trying to return to the US?
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:21 pm

I think the Civil Aviation ministry is caught with their hands in the cookie jar here...

This is anti competitive and rightly called out by other countries
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:57 pm

stl07 wrote:
Don't understand the drama, Can't see why United would want to evacuate Indians back to India, or why the Indian government would want to give an American airline its taxpayer-funded resources


It appears DL has wanted to. Also could be bringing US citizens back from India.
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:28 pm

Seems India might quickly soften its stance.



India’s ministry of civil aviation said on Tuesday it was considering allowing some international carrier flights to resume after Washington accused India of “unfair and discriminatory practices.”

The Indian ministry said in a statement that as “we move from controlled and managed aviation evacuation of our citizens in different parts of the world and foreign nationals from India, we are now looking at the possibility of establishing bilateral arrangements.”

The U.S. Transportation Department issued an order Monday to require Indian air carriers to apply for authorization prior to conducting charter flights.


India Considers Backing Down After U.S. Government Accuses It Of Favoring Air India
https://skift.com/2020/06/23/u-s-govern ... air-india/
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ScottB
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:33 pm

avier wrote:
Which also means that they will be stopped at the airport and prevented from boarding the flight if they didn't meet the said criteria. So simply put, at the end of it, everyone has to meet the criteria for undertaking the journey to India and it isn't open for any and all, whether they managed to grab the ticket or not. And there were many such cases of OCI card holders not meeting the criteria and stopped from boarding such flights to India.


But in the end a process like this, when flights are sold through normal distribution channels like the GDSs or the airline website, really isn't all that different from verifying that passengers hold valid visas for travel to countries which require them prior to boarding. The specific documentation requirements may vary, but if the GoI can communicate the procedure to AI (and ensure that eligible travelers know all the requirements), they can communicate it to other carriers wishing to operate to India as well.

And one of the key issues identified by DOT was that seats on the flights were open for sale to the public, not just to citizens being selected for evacuation.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:36 pm

Like all things with Indian aviation there is a political angel to this.

CA Minister was assigned to do one task, to break the air evacuation record of 90s Operation Desert Storm record set by AI. Hence, his daily tweets about counts. So funneling all traffic through AI would enable to achieve the goal quicker. COVID-19 repatriations would have crossed 250,000. Now I am not sure Guinness will accept these as evacuation flights if AI is selling through GDS.

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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:42 pm

A friend of mine, who is an FA with AI, did quite a few of the repatriation flights....they have to wear extremely heavy PPE all through the long flights, work in extremely difficult conditions and with passengers who are also now increasingly difficult to deal with.....the flight crew are extremely stressed on each and every flight.....my friend, couple of weeks back, had a passenger on board who developed serious conditions onboard and ultimately passed away before landing in DEL....he was coming in from one of the US destinations (not sure which city)....ultimately turned out to be a COVID case....my friend and another crew member who both tried to support the passenger, are now quarantined at home......just want to state that these flights are not some gravy train that each and every airline would be scrambling to operate....apparently, the govt is now including some of the private Indian carriers to participate in the repatriation flights....good to know that they are also opening up to American carriers to participate...
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:06 am

Statement by Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbMRT7gVAAA ... name=small
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dtw2hyd
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:14 am

Why would US need approval to operate charters to India? I thought that is covered under OpenSkies agreement.
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:33 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why would US need approval to operate charters to India? I thought that is covered under OpenSkies agreement.



This isn't about regular charter flights this is about Air India circumventing the rules and operating "evacuation" charter flights that are open for sale to the general public. The government of India suspended all scheduled international flights into their country which means Air India's international routes to the US should have been suspended as well. Airlines like UA have operated over 30 charter flights out of DEL and BOM since this crisis began, but those flights were operated in coordination with the U.S. State Department and the government of India. The planes arrived in India empty and they were not open for sale to the general public. Air India has continued to operate over 50% of their scheduled service into the US with all flights open for sale to the general public under the guise of evacuation flights, whereas airlines like DL and UA have been blocked from doing the same by the Indian government.

Each country has a right to do whatever they want as long as its fair. What the DOT is doing is fighting for US carriers to make sure countries like China and India understand if they are going to block US carriers from resuming service (which they have every right to do) the US also then has the right to block their carriers from serving the US as well. We've China change it stance, Delta will resume service this week, with United resuming service to China in July, I think India will do the same.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:27 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Statement by Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbMRT7gVAAA ... name=small

Translation, India was caught, but is trying to delay competition restarting service.

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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:37 pm

jayunited wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Why would US need approval to operate charters to India? I thought that is covered under OpenSkies agreement.



This isn't about regular charter flights this is about Air India circumventing the rules and operating "evacuation" charter flights that are open for sale to the general public. The government of India suspended all scheduled international flights into their country which means Air India's international routes to the US should have been suspended as well. Airlines like UA have operated over 30 charter flights out of DEL and BOM since this crisis began, but those flights were operated in coordination with the U.S. State Department and the government of India. The planes arrived in India empty and they were not open for sale to the general public. Air India has continued to operate over 50% of their scheduled service into the US with all flights open for sale to the general public under the guise of evacuation flights, whereas airlines like DL and UA have been blocked from doing the same by the Indian government.

Each country has a right to do whatever they want as long as its fair. What the DOT is doing is fighting for US carriers to make sure countries like China and India understand if they are going to block US carriers from resuming service (which they have every right to do) the US also then has the right to block their carriers from serving the US as well. We've China change it stance, Delta will resume service this week, with United resuming service to China in July, I think India will do the same.


I completely agree what India doing is wrong.

My question is why DL/UA needs India's approval to operate a flight. If my memory serves correctly, OpenSkies partner countries don't need prior approval, just file the flight plan. Blocking US flights is a OpenSkies violation.

China could block legally because it is not a US OpenSkies partner, India cannot.
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:52 pm

If DL/UA want to fly, they should. But they will quickly find out that there will be very limited passengers who meet the criteria and soon they will abandon such flights until international flights are allowed into India, which could be as early as August.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
jayunited wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Why would US need approval to operate charters to India? I thought that is covered under OpenSkies agreement.



This isn't about regular charter flights this is about Air India circumventing the rules and operating "evacuation" charter flights that are open for sale to the general public. The government of India suspended all scheduled international flights into their country which means Air India's international routes to the US should have been suspended as well. Airlines like UA have operated over 30 charter flights out of DEL and BOM since this crisis began, but those flights were operated in coordination with the U.S. State Department and the government of India. The planes arrived in India empty and they were not open for sale to the general public. Air India has continued to operate over 50% of their scheduled service into the US with all flights open for sale to the general public under the guise of evacuation flights, whereas airlines like DL and UA have been blocked from doing the same by the Indian government.

Each country has a right to do whatever they want as long as its fair. What the DOT is doing is fighting for US carriers to make sure countries like China and India understand if they are going to block US carriers from resuming service (which they have every right to do) the US also then has the right to block their carriers from serving the US as well. We've China change it stance, Delta will resume service this week, with United resuming service to China in July, I think India will do the same.


I completely agree what India doing is wrong.

My question is why DL/UA needs India's approval to operate a flight. If my memory serves correctly, OpenSkies partner countries don't need prior approval, just file the flight plan. Blocking US flights is a OpenSkies violation.

China could block legally because it is not a US OpenSkies partner, India cannot.


My guess is that something in the legal aspect (open skies or not) allows any country to close it's borders to others. In this case it was for a health emergency, each country must maintain is sovereign rights and allowing or not allowing flights is one of them. I am guessing that is what India did, but then they only allowed AI to operated 'chartered' flights. US airlines just want to be treated the same.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:23 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
It’s time the US Govt gave a damn and looked out for us for once. Air India should not be putting these flights up for sale in the GDS and allowing people to fly to the US as part of the operation unless US carriers can operate their flights too.

The referenced DOT order is evidence that the government does give a damn. Short of recalling the U.S. ambassador to India, this is how you get their attention.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:23 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
It’s time the US Govt gave a damn and looked out for us for once. Air India should not be putting these flights up for sale in the GDS and allowing people to fly to the US as part of the operation unless US carriers can operate their flights too.

The referenced DOT order is evidence that the government does give a damn. Short of recalling the U.S. ambassador to India, this is how you get their attention.
 
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Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:00 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Statement by Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbMRT7gVAAA ... name=small


Tell me that rainbows and butterflies background isn't the official release.
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DTWLAX
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:42 am

hohd wrote:
If DL/UA want to fly, they should. But they will quickly find out that there will be very limited passengers who meet the criteria and soon they will abandon such flights until international flights are allowed into India, which could be as early as August.

If AI is filling its planes with people who meet the criteria, why will DL/UA not be able to do so? And the criteria is only for those going to India not for those coming to the US.
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:49 am

hohd wrote:
If DL/UA want to fly, they should. But they will quickly find out that there will be very limited passengers who meet the criteria and soon they will abandon such flights until international flights are allowed into India, which could be as early as August.


DL is operating cargo only flights JFK-BOM multiple times a week now already and sometimes even ATL-BOM so they won’t abandon flights if they are already flying them with 0 passengers now.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
panamair
Posts: 4278
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:15 am

hohd wrote:
If DL/UA want to fly, they should. But they will quickly find out that there will be very limited passengers who meet the criteria and soon they will abandon such flights until international flights are allowed into India, which could be as early as August.


I believe the idea, at least with DL, is to be able to open up their existing cargo flights to BOM (from both JFK and ATL) to passenger sales as well. Since they have to operate the flights for cargo contracts anyway, why not open the flight up to include pax as supplemental income?

This is similar to DL’s resumption of ATL-FRA and DTW-LHR, both of which are driven by cargo demand but are also selling passenger capacity to supplement the revenue on those flights.
 
zionite
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:13 am

Pre-COVID DL found the market very limited and loss making. They started regular direct flights only a few days before the pandemic forced a suspension of flights. Now DL is crying foul and wants to fly to India. Just to fill their seats in their freighters for a limited time?
 
panamair
Posts: 4278
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:18 am

zionite wrote:
Pre-COVID DL found the market very limited and loss making. They started regular direct flights only a few days before the pandemic forced a suspension of flights. Now DL is crying foul and wants to fly to India. Just to fill their seats in their freighters for a limited time?


A few days? DL started the nonstop on Dec 22 2019. Flights were suspended around mid-March.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2134
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:46 am

zionite wrote:
Pre-COVID DL found the market very limited and loss making. They started regular direct flights only a few days before the pandemic forced a suspension of flights. Now DL is crying foul and wants to fly to India. Just to fill their seats in their freighters for a limited time?


Whatever the reasons DL wants to, they have the right to. The government cannot play favorites and only allow AI to do so.

I really do question the competence of this decision making. Not only is this a clear cut and obvious one, they then publish the statement on a pink and blue lemonade stand background.
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maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:59 am

DL can cry all it wants. Indian Government has taken this decision to cover losses due to quite a few free repatriation flights initially. Trump can come and beg modi but the Indian government will drag this as long as possible. Getting quite sick of continuous american nonsense .
 
flyer56
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:13 am

maint123 wrote:
DL can cry all it wants. Indian Government has taken this decision to cover losses due to quite a few free repatriation flights initially. Trump can come and beg modi but the Indian government will drag this as long as possible. Getting quite sick of continuous american nonsense .


How is this nonsense? India suspended all international flights in May, including AI, DL and UA. The only "exceptions" are under Vande Bharat, India's special evacuation flight program which currently only AI can participate in and AI is bragging that they are operating over 50% of their international schedule and you can book directly from them online. For flights both into and out of India. Take a look: https://www.india.com/news/india/air-in ... e-4056422/

In the meantime UA and DL continue flying to India with passenger aircraft but with freight only. This is not like AI organized a special charter our of Pensacola, they are flying to their previously served stations.

I agree the US complains too much in general. But in this case, the complaint looks justified.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8265
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:52 am

I don't think number of repatriation flights is an issue, I would expect at some point it will be more than 100% of previously scheduled flights because of the number of evacuees and time limits. Thousands of Indians may be facing visa overstay conditions if not allowed to leave the country.

There are several issues the way Vande Bharat (JP) mission is implemented.

1) Blocking foreign airlines.
2) Selling tickets through distribution channels. Payments should be collected through Indian Embassies.
3) Selling ex-India tickets through commercial channels. These could have been charters in collaboration with those countries.
4) Not allowing foreign born kids of both Indian parents.
5) Not allowing overseas Indian origins if entire family has foreign citizenship.

Lot of people are holding tickets of other airlines for their return journey, yet they are forced to buy one way $1300 AI tickets.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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c933103
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:02 pm

maint123 wrote:
DL can cry all it wants. Indian Government has taken this decision to cover losses due to quite a few free repatriation flights initially. Trump can come and beg modi but the Indian government will drag this as long as possible. Getting quite sick of continuous american nonsense .

And it is let American government letting Indian Government know international bilateral doesn't work this way.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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c933103
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't think number of repatriation flights is an issue, I would expect at some point it will be more than 100% of previously scheduled flights because of the number of evacuees and time limits. Thousands of Indians may be facing visa overstay conditions if not allowed to leave the country.

That's all the more reason to let regular commercial service resume for passengers to return as soon as possible.
There are several issues the way Vande Bharat (JP) mission is implemented.

1) Blocking foreign airlines.
2) Selling tickets through distribution channels. Payments should be collected through Indian Embassies.
3) Selling ex-India tickets through commercial channels. These could have been charters in collaboration with those countries.
4) Not allowing foreign born kids of both Indian parents.
5) Not allowing overseas Indian origins if entire family has foreign citizenship.

Lot of people are holding tickets of other airlines for their return journey, yet they are forced to buy one way $1300 AI tickets.

Whether overseas nationals or non-nationals are allowed or not isn't part of the problem. Chinese charter flights in same situation also face similar complaints from the United States even thought they only allows their own nationals and probably didn't offer ticket out of their owm country.
The real issue is really just selling those tickets commercially and only allow Indian airlines to operates.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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Antaras
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:11 pm

VN is also having trouble getting licenses from DOT for its repatriation flights between the US and Vietnam.
Common problem here?
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CPS001
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

There are several issues the way Vande Bharat (JP) mission is implemented.

4) Not allowing foreign born kids of both Indian parents.
5) Not allowing overseas Indian origins if entire family has foreign citizenship.


Actually both of these are now allowed, provided at least one member (parent) has OCI or any form of Indian visa or Indian citizenship.


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hohd
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: DOT now goes after India for impairing U.S airline rights

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:37 pm

US also arranged some charters from India, but they chose only DL and not AI, which at that time was also flying. So India has a right to choose an Indian carrier. US State dept also can through UA or DL operate the "charter" flights now, just like India is doing through AI. These are special circumstances and most of these flights are government run.

Until international flights resume back to India and also until India permits US residents to visit India, this kind of arrangement will remain. India would not have blocked UA or DL if it was operated for and by the US government.

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