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wernerga3
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United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:33 pm

I'm just curious since you guys are the experts, what is going on with United and the A350? I thought they ordered the -900 and then switched the order to the -1000. But I have read inconsistent articles saying they are pushing delivery expectations off to 2027 now, rather than initially 2022?

What's the real story?
 
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Polot
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:38 pm

UA switched the order back to the -900 back in September 2017. At the end of last year when the UA A321XLR order was announced they also announced that the A350 order was deferred to 2027.
 
Ishrion
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:38 pm

wernerga3 wrote:
articles saying they are pushing delivery expectations off to 2027 now, rather than initially 2022?

What's the real story?


Correct. When United ordered the A321XLR in December, they also pushed the A350 to 2027 in order to "better align with the carrier's operational needs."

https://hub.united.com/2019-12-03-unite ... 09684.html
 
wernerga3
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:49 pm

What a bummer. It's a very nice plane and I prefer flying United over Delta, so I wish it wasn't 7 years away!
 
Antarius
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:00 pm

Ishrion wrote:
wernerga3 wrote:
articles saying they are pushing delivery expectations off to 2027 now, rather than initially 2022?

What's the real story?


Correct. When United ordered the A321XLR in December, they also pushed the A350 to 2027 in order to "better align with the carrier's operational needs."

https://hub.united.com/2019-12-03-unite ... 09684.html


They just took delivery of some 77Ws and also have 772s and a slew of 787s. No need for a a350 right now.

When the 777 replacement cycle hits, then the a350 will fit in nicely.
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UA444
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:05 pm

If the 2027 delivery holds firm, that will be 18 years since they placed the order in December 2009.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:05 pm

Antarius wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
wernerga3 wrote:
articles saying they are pushing delivery expectations off to 2027 now, rather than initially 2022?

What's the real story?


Correct. When United ordered the A321XLR in December, they also pushed the A350 to 2027 in order to "better align with the carrier's operational needs."

https://hub.united.com/2019-12-03-unite ... 09684.html


They just took delivery of some 77Ws and also have 772s and a slew of 787s. No need for a a350 right now.

When the 777 replacement cycle hits, then the a350 will fit in nicely.

My uneducated guess is the oldest 77Es will be starting to go out in 2027 at the earliest which will give time for the A350 to get a PIP or 2. There are even whispers (a.net whispers) of RR coming out with a new engine for a potential A350neo in the 2027 timeframe. IMO the only thing that would totally kill the A350 at UA is a 787-10ER.

Slightly OT, for pilots transitioning to the 350 from 320 family, do they need a whole 30 day QUAL course or is it a shorter difference course like the 777 to the 787 transition?
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jghealey
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Correct. When United ordered the A321XLR in December, they also pushed the A350 to 2027 in order to "better align with the carrier's operational needs."

https://hub.united.com/2019-12-03-unite ... 09684.html


They just took delivery of some 77Ws and also have 772s and a slew of 787s. No need for a a350 right now.

When the 777 replacement cycle hits, then the a350 will fit in nicely.

My uneducated guess is the oldest 77Es will be starting to go out in 2027 at the earliest which will give time for the A350 to get a PIP or 2. There are even whispers (a.net whispers) of RR coming out with a new engine for a potential A350neo in the 2027 timeframe. IMO the only thing that would totally kill the A350 at UA is a 787-10ER.

Slightly OT, for pilots transitioning to the 350 from 320 family, do they need a whole 30 day QUAL course or is it a shorter difference course like the 777 to the 787 transition?


I think the RR ultrafan has a targeted EIS of 2025? UA's delivery schedule would give plenty of time for it to be proven into service if we do end up seeing an A350neo.

As for the commonality, I'm absolutely no expert but I'm pretty sure the conversion time for A320-A350 would be substantially less than 777 to 787 considering the cockpit similarity. Interesting though that I can't seem to find a concrete figure for it, Airbus just seems to state 'reduced training time'. Maybe some pilots who've undergone this conversion can enlighten us?

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Cointrin330
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:26 pm

Pre-COVID, the A359's were potentially the 772 replacement solution. My sense is the A359 order will be rolled over into a larger A321XLR and other variants order, as well as a mechanism to replace the A320/A319 fleet, but it will be a long road to get there and the deliveries will be pushed off far further into the future. UA has signaled the 787 is to be the backbone of the long haul fleet. I don't think the A350 will fly for UA.
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Jefford717
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:28 pm

I personally don’t see United operating the A350 unfortunately. They seem very happy with their 787. Additional there isn’t that many route that requires the capability of A359 particularly the 280t variant. (ULH flight such as UAs IAH-SYD/SFO-SIN gets all the publicity but are actually very rare and do you really need another type of aircraft for 1 or 2 routes?) They have the 787-10 for flights less than 12-13 hours and 787-9 for anything greater than 13 hours plus they have 77W that are relatively new and don’t require replacement for another 15 years.
 
StTim
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:30 pm

I have seen a slide on the Airbus pilot conversion times between families.

Can I find it?

Of course not!
 
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Polot
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:47 pm

Pilot conversion times are useless to this discussion. At UA like all the US3 what equipment you fly depends on what your seniority allows you to hold. A A350 pilot could be moving from a A320...or they could be moving from a 737, 787, 777, etc.

Also anything regarding any NEO of the A350 has no doubt now been pushed further out in the future due to covid decimating the industry.
 
IWMBH
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 pm

The first A350 will arrive in 2027. So that’s plenty of time for the Corona-crises to blow over. So, I believe this is the order that is least effected by the virus.
 
ehaase
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:55 pm

My guess is United probably wishes it hadn't ordered the 359 but is stuck with it, especially with the Rolls Royce engine deal. The 787's and the 77W's would be sufficient for United's widebody needs. I think the economy will be awful for years to come with a day of reckoning coming the U.S.'s awful debt and the Federal Reserve's money printing.
 
jghealey
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:02 pm

I don't get all this skepticism, the A350 is probably the ideal replacement for 772s due to its size and efficiency, just the fact that UA's already operating the 787 apparently means the order is apparently definitely not going to happen. Many airlines operate many fleet types profitably, and we haven't yet seen a 787-10ER so some routes could see the chop. Longer term, the A350 could serve as a replacement for the 77Ws (yes I know they are recently delivered) and the Ultrafan offers huge potential.

There must be a reason why UA placed the order in the first place, and also as others have mentioned 2027 coincides with the replacement schedule of the 772s. If they genuinely had no intention of taking this order, they would have cancelled or converted to A321 by now. And we shouldn't look at this in context of Covid as this is still 7 years off!

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MIflyer12
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:09 pm

jghealey wrote:

There must be a reason why UA placed the order in the first place...

Things change in 11 years (the merger with CO, 787-10s, and COVID-19, to start) and will continue to change. I don't assume that reasoning which held that long ago is true today.
 
trex8
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:24 pm

StTim wrote:
I have seen a slide on the Airbus pilot conversion times between families.

Can I find it?

Of course not!

Found this though few years old
https://twitter.com/STDirectLaw/status/ ... 20/photo/1
 
StTim
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:28 pm

That is the one - so 11 days conversion training - not 30 for an A320 pilot to change to the A350.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:38 pm

In the aftermath of COVID no one is going to have the cash on hand to do much development so the currently offered line up of planes is what people will be picking from for the foreseeable future.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:47 pm

jghealey wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Antarius wrote:

They just took delivery of some 77Ws and also have 772s and a slew of 787s. No need for a a350 right now.

When the 777 replacement cycle hits, then the a350 will fit in nicely.

My uneducated guess is the oldest 77Es will be starting to go out in 2027 at the earliest which will give time for the A350 to get a PIP or 2. There are even whispers (a.net whispers) of RR coming out with a new engine for a potential A350neo in the 2027 timeframe. IMO the only thing that would totally kill the A350 at UA is a 787-10ER.

Slightly OT, for pilots transitioning to the 350 from 320 family, do they need a whole 30 day QUAL course or is it a shorter difference course like the 777 to the 787 transition?


I think the RR ultrafan has a targeted EIS of 2025? UA's delivery schedule would give plenty of time for it to be proven into service if we do end up seeing an A350neo.

As for the commonality, I'm absolutely no expert but I'm pretty sure the conversion time for A320-A350 would be substantially less than 777 to 787 considering the cockpit similarity. Interesting though that I can't seem to find a concrete figure for it, Airbus just seems to state 'reduced training time'. Maybe some pilots who've undergone this conversion can enlighten us?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


Haha. With Covid, Brexit, RR layoffs, you will be lucky to see an UltraFan hanging off of a wing of A350neo before 2030. Who knows, maybe at this rate it will debut first on something else...
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
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zeke
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
My uneducated guess is the oldest 77Es will be starting to go out in 2027 at the earliest which will give time for the A350 to get a PIP or 2. There are even whispers (a.net whispers) of RR coming out with a new engine for a potential A350neo in the 2027 timeframe. IMO the only thing that would totally kill the A350 at UA is a 787-10ER.

Slightly OT, for pilots transitioning to the 350 from 320 family, do they need a whole 30 day QUAL course or is it a shorter difference course like the 777 to the 787 transition?


My uneducated guess is United may not be around in 12-24 months with Covid. They may get rid of all 777s, international is going to look very different. I think the A350s will be cancelled.

Yes there is a cross crew qualification between A320 and A350.

The 787 and 777 are two different type ratings.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
wernerga3
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:04 pm

While I see 777s going away due to decreased overseas activity, I don’t see United going away.
 
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N776AU
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:17 pm

United wasn't getting A350s, even before air travel went down the crapper
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Confuscius
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:20 pm

IWMBH wrote:
The first A350 will arrive in 2027. So that’s plenty of time for the Corona-crises to blow over. So, I believe this is the order that is least effected by the virus.


What if there's a COVID-26?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:25 pm

IWMBH wrote:
The first A350 will arrive in 2027. So that’s plenty of time for the Corona-crises to blow over. So, I believe this is the order that is least effected by the virus.


On the other hand, the virus and it's earth-shattering effect on the commercial aviation industry has shown airlines the benefit of having fewer A/C types to manage. As usual, WN and other single or two-type of fleets operators luck out by having only minimal jockeying to do when it comes time to reducing cockpit staff. They can just whack from the bottom of the seniority list and everyone that's left remains in the the same A/C type although possibly a different seat. With the legacies and their multiple A/C types, there is a whole lot more shuffling and re-training to do.

Realistically, there's not very much an A350 can offer UA that their collection of 787s cannot. A few less seats here and there or a bit more range under certain conditions at best. The added costs and complexities of mixed fleets might not be worth the hassle down the road. I wouldn't be surprised if recent events give UA the opt-out of the A350 excuse they've quietly been looking for.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:28 pm

zeke wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
My uneducated guess is the oldest 77Es will be starting to go out in 2027 at the earliest which will give time for the A350 to get a PIP or 2. There are even whispers (a.net whispers) of RR coming out with a new engine for a potential A350neo in the 2027 timeframe. IMO the only thing that would totally kill the A350 at UA is a 787-10ER.

Slightly OT, for pilots transitioning to the 350 from 320 family, do they need a whole 30 day QUAL course or is it a shorter difference course like the 777 to the 787 transition?


My uneducated guess is United may not be around in 12-24 months with Covid. They may get rid of all 777s, international is going to look very different. I think the A350s will be cancelled.

Yes there is a cross crew qualification between A320 and A350.

The 787 and 777 are two different type ratings.

Actually with the recent $5 billion loan with MileagePlus as collateral, Scott Kirby has says the worst (meaning liquidation) is no longer on the table.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Antarius
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jghealey wrote:

There must be a reason why UA placed the order in the first place...

Things change in 11 years (the merger with CO, 787-10s, and COVID-19, to start) and will continue to change. I don't assume that reasoning which held that long ago is true today.


Oil was also much more expensive back then with projections of it running out.

That said, they did add 10 more in 2017 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKCN1BH1P8) so even post-merger, they see some value or future in the fleet.
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brilondon
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:40 pm

wernerga3 wrote:
What a bummer. It's a very nice plane and I prefer flying United over Delta, so I wish it wasn't 7 years away!


In the current climate they may defer it further.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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zeke
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Actually with the recent $5 billion loan with MileagePlus as collateral, Scott Kirby has says the worst (meaning liquidation) is no longer on the table.


Well frankly that’s rubbish, it’s on the table for any company. And more so for US companies as the infection rates in the US are still far too high.

The US is up to what 100,000 deaths so far, how many countries do you think will open borders to such a risk ?

Nothing pre covid is valid anymore.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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janders
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Re: United A350 orders

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:54 pm

OPer question has been answered and this discussion has since veered off topic...

Herebly locked
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