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rbaustralia2020
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large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:50 pm

Does anybody think if given the success of the A321 XLR, there is potential for an even larger single aisle aircraft, with the range of the smaller twin aisles, such as the 787-8 or 330-200? Maybe this will require a different wing to that of the 321, and larger engines, but if it could be built on the same production line, to keep the costs down, wouldn't it be a threat to wide bodies in the 10-12k range in the same way the 321 XLR is within its 8700 k range?
 
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Antaras
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:28 pm

Are you talking about the Great Banana aka Boeing 757-300 (re-engined)?
Seems legit :duck:
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x1234
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:31 pm

The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.
 
VSMUT
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:32 pm

Every fuselage diameter has an optimal length. You can only stretch the tube so far before you need to add weight because it needs more longitudinal strengthening. There are other issues like boarding time, rotation angle etc. I suspect the A321 is already around the point where further stretches will start impacting it negatively. An A330-200 sized narrowbody? Will never be able to match a widebody of same size. An A321 needs to seat 25 more rows to match an A321, making it something like 18 meters longer, making for a 60+ meter aircraft.
 
VSMUT
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:33 pm

x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.


I doubt it comes anywhere close to a 240 seat A321neo.
 
Prost
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:00 pm

When you add too much length to a single aisle plane it makes board and deplaning a chore for the folks in the last 5-10 rows. Personally if I were on a 757-300 into a large hub airport, I would want to give myself a minimum of 75 minutes connection time.
 
flight152
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:08 pm

x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.

Cost per AVAILABLE seat mile assumes its full. It’s right in the definition. (Face palm)
 
2travel2know2
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:16 pm

Prost wrote:
When you add too much length to a single aisle plane it makes board and deplaning a chore for the folks in the last 5-10 rows. Personally if I were on a 757-300 into a large hub airport, I would want to give myself a minimum of 75 minutes connection time.
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.
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kiowa
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:49 pm

DC-8 was a wonderfull aircraft.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:58 pm

Hadn't the major carriers dumped their DC-8s and 707s within ten years or less of the entry of 747/DC-10/L-1011 into service? (When were the last orders for those placed?) Sure, fuel efficiency is important, and CO2 reduction (for some) but I struggle to imagine the passenger appeal of a 300-passenger narrowbody.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:07 pm

x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.


....not to mention the longest enplaning and deplaning time in the history of aviation.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
An A321 needs to seat 25 more rows to match an A321,

???
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:15 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.


Many LCCs wouldn't care about that. Certainly in Europe they're using stairs more often than not, and the higher number of doors the more stairs they can place. Even at airports that have jetways, LCCs mostly prefer not to use them. If you're flying a European LCC it even says on your boarding card "front door" or "back door".

There was mentioning of a further stretch of the A321 when Airbus developed the A321LR which would require a new wing design. With that new wing design, they would be able to stretch the plane further. That new aircraft would then be the A322 and it would basically look like a 757-300.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:19 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
....not to mention the longest enplaning and deplaning time in the history of aviation.


That would depend on the number of doors used for boarding / deboarding. As said, most LCCs (which will be the primary customers for this plane) prefer to use stairs instead of jetways.

I believe the 757-300 has an extra door in the front section, that would make you can use 3 doors for boarding / deboarding. It would go as fast or even faster than a 737.
 
flyabunch
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:20 pm

I have always tried to avoid flying on 757-300's and A321's if I cannot get a seat close to the front. Twice I have had to fly cross-country on A321's and I was stuck in row 33 on one flight and row 32 on the other. On the first one, the flight attendant that was in the area as we started to deplane said it would be nine to ten minutes before we even moved. She hit it exactly. Most of us sat back down.
Mike
 
klm617
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:23 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Prost wrote:
When you add too much length to a single aisle plane it makes board and deplaning a chore for the folks in the last 5-10 rows. Personally if I were on a 757-300 into a large hub airport, I would want to give myself a minimum of 75 minutes connection time.
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.


I took a 757-300 into PMI and they loaded and unloaded at both ends.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ethernal
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:26 pm

x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.


I think that was widely believed to be true when looking at "last-gen" planes (737NG and A320ceo families) but doubt that holds up today with the A321neo and 737MAX (...please hold your jokes about a plane that doesn't fly having infinite CASM).

To all those talking about deplane time: taking a US-centric approach (where most 753s fly), the fact that the L2 door typically used on a 753 I don't think it is that much worse than a fully-loaded A321/739 with front-door boarding only. The 752 is noticeably faster to deplane versus a 739, and I find the 753 to be comparable if not a few minutes longer (this is primarily my experience with Delta's configuration and boarding process so YMMV).

First class is incredibly slow to board/deboard in my experience so that reduces the bottleneck a bit with the left turn.
Last edited by ethernal on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klm617
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Hadn't the major carriers dumped their DC-8s and 707s within ten years or less of the entry of 747/DC-10/L-1011 into service? (When were the last orders for those placed?) Sure, fuel efficiency is important, and CO2 reduction (for some) but I struggle to imagine the passenger appeal of a 300-passenger narrowbody.


In the current environment I don't think passenger preference really means that much to the airlines. Most people have no idea what plan they are on when they book travel and lets face it the people who this would impact most is basic economy passengers who book by price only.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Swadian
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Hadn't the major carriers dumped their DC-8s and 707s within ten years or less of the entry of 747/DC-10/L-1011 into service? (When were the last orders for those placed?) Sure, fuel efficiency is important, and CO2 reduction (for some) but I struggle to imagine the passenger appeal of a 300-passenger narrowbody.


They didn't. Many carriers flew DC-8 into the 1990s.
 
Wayfarer515
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:43 pm

MC-21-400 will be able to fill up to 250 pax.

https://www.airlines-inform.com/commerc ... ms-21.html
 
VSMUT
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:55 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
An A321 needs to seat 25 more rows to match an A321,

???


Typo, meant A330-200
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Hadn't the major carriers dumped their DC-8s and 707s within ten years or less of the entry of 747/DC-10/L-1011 into service? (When were the last orders for those placed?) Sure, fuel efficiency is important, and CO2 reduction (for some) but I struggle to imagine the passenger appeal of a 300-passenger narrowbody.


But there was the DC-8 Super 70 Series project that resulted the reengining of the DC-8 Series 60 aircraft with CFM-56 engines. It resulted in an aircraft that had operating costs similar to a 767-200. They did have an advantage in the 80's in not being restricted on long range overwater operations. Even when ETOPS first started in the mid 80's, it was limited to 2 hours diversion time.

I can't imagine a narrow body would be desirable for routes over 12 hours due to the need to have two full cockpit crews and crew rests for both cockpit and cabin crews. There would also be the issue of having enough lavoratories for a long flight.
 
ethernal
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:01 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
MC-21-400 will be able to fill up to 250 pax.

https://www.airlines-inform.com/commerc ... ms-21.html


I doubt it will do 250 pax. That's more an exit row limit than an actual seating chart. At most they may be able to squeeze in one extra row relative to an A321neo - so call is 241 instead of a 235 seat ULCC config like Easyjet's A321neo. Their dimensions are almost identical, with the MC-21 having significantly lower planned MTOW.
 
ewt340
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 pm

I think there would be a market for such aircraft. A321XLR wasn't that big actually for narrow-body standard. Currently it is certified to carry up to 240 passengers.
I would say a slightly larger aircraft with maximum capacity between 250-270 would be accepted by the market as long as it have good efficiency and decent range (around 4,000nmi - 5,000nmi).

Boeing could approach this market with NMA. While Airbus could shift their A318, A319 and A320 to A220 and created a new NMA on their own to replace A321NEO in the future.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:31 pm

flyabunch wrote:
I have always tried to avoid flying on 757-300's and A321's if I cannot get a seat close to the front. Twice I have had to fly cross-country on A321's and I was stuck in row 33 on one flight and row 32 on the other. On the first one, the flight attendant that was in the area as we started to deplane said it would be nine to ten minutes before we even moved. She hit it exactly. Most of us sat back down.
Mike


Wait until you're in the back of one of those in bad turbulence. So. much. puke.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 pm

flyabunch wrote:
I have always tried to avoid flying on 757-300's and A321's if I cannot get a seat close to the front. Twice I have had to fly cross-country on A321's and I was stuck in row 33 on one flight and row 32 on the other. On the first one, the flight attendant that was in the area as we started to deplane said it would be nine to ten minutes before we even moved. She hit it exactly. Most of us sat back down.
Mike


And they wouldn't let you go out the rear door? Fly a better airline next time, one that uses both doors.

Wizzair is able to achieve 35 minutes turnaround times with their A321s, sometimes even faster. Boarding and deboarding goes very fast with both the front and rear door in use.
 
B757Forever
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:45 pm

flight152 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.

Cost per AVAILABLE seat mile assumes its full. It’s right in the definition. (Face palm)


CASM does not take seats filled into account. CASM is costs only. See definition from the MIT Global Airline Industry Program..

Cost per Available Seat Mile (CASM)
Measure of unit cost in the airline industry. CASM is calculated by taking all of an airline’s operating expenses and dividing it by the total number of available seat miles produced. Sometimes, fuel or transport-related expenses are withheld from CASM calculations to better isolate and directly compare operating expenses.
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hiflyeras
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:13 pm

I flew on a SAS stretch DC8 as a kid. It was one of my first flights and we were sitting in the back. I was horrified to see the fuselage bending side to side/up and down on takeoff and during turbulence. God knows what held it all together! ;)
 
airzona11
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:23 pm

The economic and industry cycle were not favorable for the 757-300, wish there were more. Nothing like sitting towards the back, leaning your head against the sidewall, and seeing the visual twisting of the fuselage.
 
Flow2706
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:32 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
flyabunch wrote:
I have always tried to avoid flying on 757-300's and A321's if I cannot get a seat close to the front. Twice I have had to fly cross-country on A321's and I was stuck in row 33 on one flight and row 32 on the other. On the first one, the flight attendant that was in the area as we started to deplane said it would be nine to ten minutes before we even moved. She hit it exactly. Most of us sat back down.
Mike


Wait until you're in the back of one of those in bad turbulence. So. much. puke.

Agree on the turbulence. The worst turbulence I've ever experienced was when I was deadheading on a 753, I guess it was only light to moderate but it definitely felt like moderate to severe. Stuff was moving around in the cabin, really uncomfortable...
For the 321, it tends to yaw a lot in anything more than light turbulence, while the 320 only banks slightly. It guess it could be improved a bit with a better yaw damping function in the FAC but I guess it's too expensive for a little benefit.
 
Varsity1
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.


Many LCCs wouldn't care about that. Certainly in Europe they're using stairs more often than not, and the higher number of doors the more stairs they can place. Even at airports that have jetways, LCCs mostly prefer not to use them. If you're flying a European LCC it even says on your boarding card "front door" or "back door".

There was mentioning of a further stretch of the A321 when Airbus developed the A321LR which would require a new wing design. With that new wing design, they would be able to stretch the plane further. That new aircraft would then be the A322 and it would basically look like a 757-300.



While that might be attractive from a cost perspective in Europe. Boarding from stairs makes ADA compliance really difficult in the US.
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LAX772LR
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:00 am

flight152 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.

Cost per AVAILABLE seat mile assumes its full. It’s right in the definition. (Face palm)

You're attempting to correct someone without knowing what you yourself are talking about.

The seat is "available" whether it's filled or not, and the cost is calculated as a function of that. CASM does not take load factor into account.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
UA735WL
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:27 am

LAX772LR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
The 757-300 is the single aisle plane WHEN FULL has the least CASM (cost per available seat mile). I personally feel Boeing should re-engine the 757.

Cost per AVAILABLE seat mile assumes its full. It’s right in the definition. (Face palm)

You're attempting to correct someone without knowing what you yourself are talking about.

The seat is "available" whether it's filled or not, and the cost is calculated as a function of that. CASM does not take load factor into account.


If CASM includes aircraft cost (as I understand, it does) I would bet that a Y268 753 would have an advantage over a brand new A321NEO just because it's likely paid for, since they've been out of production for so long.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
planecane
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:59 am

Varsity1 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.


Many LCCs wouldn't care about that. Certainly in Europe they're using stairs more often than not, and the higher number of doors the more stairs they can place. Even at airports that have jetways, LCCs mostly prefer not to use them. If you're flying a European LCC it even says on your boarding card "front door" or "back door".

There was mentioning of a further stretch of the A321 when Airbus developed the A321LR which would require a new wing design. With that new wing design, they would be able to stretch the plane further. That new aircraft would then be the A322 and it would basically look like a 757-300.



While that might be attractive from a cost perspective in Europe. Boarding from stairs makes ADA compliance really difficult in the US.

I've seen switchback ramps instead of stairs.
 
Chemist
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:19 am

I fly WN out of BUR frequently (well at least before the pandemic). They board and deplane front and rear, and use a switchback ramp in the front and stairs in the rear. I've seen a 737 700 unload/load with a 23 minute turn with most seats filled on both flights. It's fabulous.
 
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scbriml
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Re: large single aisle aircraft

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:40 am

Varsity1 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Unless there’s front and back door board and deplane; which IMHO, would be very unusual. Add to that, not that many airports have jetways to board/deplane front and back doors.


Many LCCs wouldn't care about that. Certainly in Europe they're using stairs more often than not, and the higher number of doors the more stairs they can place. Even at airports that have jetways, LCCs mostly prefer not to use them. If you're flying a European LCC it even says on your boarding card "front door" or "back door".

There was mentioning of a further stretch of the A321 when Airbus developed the A321LR which would require a new wing design. With that new wing design, they would be able to stretch the plane further. That new aircraft would then be the A322 and it would basically look like a 757-300.



While that might be attractive from a cost perspective in Europe. Boarding from stairs makes ADA compliance really difficult in the US.


Do you really think there aren't mobility rules in Europe? Ryanair always boards via stairs, yet they still manage to carry wheelchair passengers. :wink2:
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