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kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 731
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:04 pm

How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964
 
johns624
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:18 pm

There you go, thinking that everyone else should live according to your standards! (sarcasm)
 
asuflyer
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:19 pm

For years India has been finding pilots with falsified licenses. In Nepal as well.
This is not surprising that this exists in Pakistan as well.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-m ... ots-449891
https://www.aviationnepal.com/press-rel ... ke-pilots/
 
LH658
Posts: 1111
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:37 pm

Fake certifications are common in such countries unfortunately. This is what happen when you have rampant corruption going on.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 436
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:04 pm

This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.
 
klm617
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:10 pm

kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


I don't think the 737 Max is the real problem here. What we are talking about here is one of the symptoms of what this thread is about. Anyone can fly a plane when things go right real airman know how to fly out of danger (When it's possible). We've seen to many times where pilots panic under pressure cause very avoidable accidents. To many crew today rely on the computer systems to fly the plane rather than knowing how to fly out of danger.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 225
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:27 pm

I didn't know such countries had any sort real certification. Learn something every day.
 
DUSdude
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:20 am

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:35 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


Culture is built over decades and can be destroyed easily. Anyone can do it. The provenance of the pilots is irrelevant.
 
kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 731
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:41 pm

DUSdude wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


Culture is built over decades and can be destroyed easily. Anyone can do it. The provenance of the pilots is irrelevant.



"provenance" as in the history or where a pilot came from? Are you saying that a pilots backround in training is irrelevant? To get to a major airline as a pilot in the US is a huge feat with incredible training, evaluation, and certification.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:54 pm

klm617 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


I don't think the 737 Max is the real problem here. What we are talking about here is one of the symptoms of what this thread is about. Anyone can fly a plane when things go right real airman know how to fly out of danger (When it's possible). We've seen to many times where pilots panic under pressure cause very avoidable accidents. To many crew today rely on the computer systems to fly the plane rather than knowing how to fly out of danger.

You ever fly a plane?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3184
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:55 am

klm617 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


Agreed. Would never ever step foot on PIA.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1511
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:41 pm

Shocking news but good that they start to talk about it.
Seems to make unmanned cockpits more attractive to me.
 
MR27122
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:17 pm

It's very curious 'cause Microsoft-Apple-(even the IRS) all possess the most proactive fraud departments/divisions situated in this part of World. You'd suspect they'd be hyper vigilant re "fake/fraud" when it comes to commercial aviation!
 
Maddog88Lover
Posts: 5
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:33 pm

Unfortunately there are lot of corruptions going on not just in this country but other countries as well. From my point of view, this is not just fake license issue but also lack of training program and plenty (or should I say "large" word) number of low hours pilot got hired by airlines. These are contributed to the most crashes like AAR214 for example. This tells us that most airlines don't take serious with the hiring process such as verify the pilot's certifications or annual training in a simulator with emergency scenario.

Regardless if this was true or not, my big question is why the pilots obtained the fake ATP certification? Is that because they were poor? No access to the financial aid or flight school? Were they the aviation enthusiasts who really wanted to be pilot but being too lazy to take a long path to reach their dream but took the shortcut path? Or a person who seeks the easy money?

Imagine, if FAA doesn't existed or their regulations were weakness, US airlines probably do the same thing as cut the budget for their training program to put more money into the executives and shareholders' pocket then fingers crossed that their pilots would do good job with minimum training.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 408
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:40 pm

Maddog88Lover wrote:
Unfortunately there are lot of corruptions going on not just in this country but other countries as well. From my point of view, this is not just fake license issue but also lack of training program and plenty (or should I say "large" word) number of low hours pilot got hired by airlines. These are contributed to the most crashes like AAR214 for example. This tells us that most airlines don't take serious with the hiring process such as verify the pilot's certifications or annual training in a simulator with emergency scenario.

Regardless if this was true or not, my big question is why the pilots obtained the fake ATP certification? Is that because they were poor? No access to the financial aid or flight school? Were they the aviation enthusiasts who really wanted to be pilot but being too lazy to take a long path to reach their dream but took the shortcut path? Or a person who seeks the easy money?

Imagine, if FAA doesn't existed or their regulations were weakness, US airlines probably do the same thing as cut the budget for their training program to put more money into the executives and shareholders' pocket then fingers crossed that their pilots would do good job with minimum training.

Probably thats why regulatory enforcement exists if pakistan can't make sure they have qualified crews in the cockpit they should probably be blocked from operating into other nations airspace, I hope they end up back on the prestigious list of carriers banned from operating in EU airspace again (they just came of the list in 2017).
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:49 pm

It’s not “fake” licenses, it’s about “fake” skills. This crew certainly had “fake” skills.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8313
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not “fake” licenses, it’s about “fake” skills. This crew certainly had “fake” skills.


I recently came across some screenshots I had saved on an old hard drive... back when I was playing flight sim 2000 in middle school. 380 knots at 3,000 feet with flaps 2, 4 white and 2 dots left on an approach, all sorts of goofy autopilot modes. I felt embarassed for myself... then I realized it isn’t half as bad as what these “real” PIA pilots *actually* did.
 
klm617
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:08 pm

Maddog88Lover wrote:
Unfortunately there are lot of corruptions going on not just in this country but other countries as well. From my point of view, this is not just fake license issue but also lack of training program and plenty (or should I say "large" word) number of low hours pilot got hired by airlines. These are contributed to the most crashes like AAR214 for example. This tells us that most airlines don't take serious with the hiring process such as verify the pilot's certifications or annual training in a simulator with emergency scenario.

Regardless if this was true or not, my big question is why the pilots obtained the fake ATP certification? Is that because they were poor? No access to the financial aid or flight school? Were they the aviation enthusiasts who really wanted to be pilot but being too lazy to take a long path to reach their dream but took the shortcut path? Or a person who seeks the easy money?

Imagine, if FAA doesn't existed or their regulations were weakness, US airlines probably do the same thing as cut the budget for their training program to put more money into the executives and shareholders' pocket then fingers crossed that their pilots would do good job with minimum training.


I think it's more like the college scandal we had in the US pay to play. There are affluent people who want to be pilots that lack the skill or initiative so they buy their licenses with their wealth. Let's face it being a airline pilot in a third world country is a symbol of status something that is very important in these types of countries.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 838
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:42 pm

Unfortunately, the “path of least resistance,” will prevent open, honest, and frank discussion here, in the pseudo pc doublespeak world we are living. Therefore I won’t be

investing too much time here except for saying

I hope this obvious lapse in Aviation Safety is addressed. (

(PS I hope: media, social media, falsely moderated mediate, and fake media, are happy with the mess they have created. They are coming for you next)
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:30 pm

Ooof. Can I have a license and five pounds of type ratings, please?
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:56 pm

This is absolutely incredible.

How is this even possible? How bad is the regulation in Pakistan? Why is PIA still allowed to fly anywhere outside Pakistan?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ealed.html
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 686
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


And in this day and age the mob will accuse you for it. So beware.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 pm

kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


Even today, there are people getting better and better at cheating the system. It will always be that way, even 100 years from now.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
strfyr51
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:12 am

LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.

Tell me? What collaborative thinking is it to BE qualified at what you do?
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 436
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:53 am

strfyr51 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.

Tell me? What collaborative thinking is it to BE qualified at what you do?


I can't tell what you are asking, but I was referring to CRM. Captain listening to co-pilot when he or she declares a go-around, avoiding their deaths. Things like that. I'm not a pilot, but we have people in the forum who are.

If you are in a culture such as South Korea, the captain is your "Oppa" and you just have to do what he says, not discuss how his decisions affect safety. This is just me talking, if anybody else has more credible words please say so.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:05 am

asuflyer wrote:
For years India has been finding pilots with falsified licenses. In Nepal as well.
This is not surprising that this exists in Pakistan as well.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-m ... ots-449891
https://www.aviationnepal.com/press-rel ... ke-pilots/


Huh quoting a 2011 article in 2020 and saying it's rampant in India??? Till 2019 only 20 fake pilots have been detected, and DGCA is ever vigilant for them.

https://www.india.com/news/india/20-pil ... s-3720972/

It's a big example of bad reporting when you say "maybe 3000-4000", and don't update the story even after a decade down the line.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am

CobaltScar wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


And in this day and age the mob will accuse you for it. So beware.

The only time I ever saw a "mob" was when people were trying to suggest that non Western cultures were at fault for crashing a plane that had an incredibly lethal design flaw.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:18 am

LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


It actually has nothing to do with "western" or culture etc. It is solely based off government and oversight. Weak governments, or politically weakened governments tend to not enforce rules or politics bends rules towards individuals or companies.

The more stringent a government enforces rules, the less such things happen.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:35 am

Even if you could get a fake license, surely you wouldn't be able to get through the tests to enter an airline, unless the airline is totally corrupt as well? I could have done a better job at landing that plane after 10 beers and a pot noodle.
 
klm617
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:38 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
Even if you could get a fake license, surely you wouldn't be able to get through the tests to enter an airline, unless the airline is totally corrupt as well? I could have done a better job at landing that plane after 10 beers and a pot noodle.



Everything gets easier with repetition. Get a couple months of simulator time and with practice you to can be proficient at flying an airliner 9-11 proved that without a shadow of a doubt.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:42 am

speedbird52 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
klm617 wrote:

This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


And in this day and age the mob will accuse you for it. So beware.

The only time I ever saw a "mob" was when people were trying to suggest that non Western cultures were at fault for crashing a plane that had an incredibly lethal design flaw.


Again the DC10 and Lockheed Electra flew with lethal design flaws as their problems were being addressed.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Blerg
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:54 pm

klm617 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


I don't think the 737 Max is the real problem here. What we are talking about here is one of the symptoms of what this thread is about. Anyone can fly a plane when things go right real airman know how to fly out of danger (When it's possible). We've seen to many times where pilots panic under pressure cause very avoidable accidents. To many crew today rely on the computer systems to fly the plane rather than knowing how to fly out of danger.


Wasn't there a case when UA and AA pilots found themselves in the same situation like ET and Lion Air flights that crashed? I remember reading that they were better trained to handle such situations which prevented catastrophes. Also, I don't see why every time we are talking flaws in other systems we immediately feel the need to point what's wrong with our own.Criticizing those who are different from us does not make us automatically racist.
 
hohd
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:16 pm

There is no point in comparing with other countries and state that it may happen in other countries too. The responsibility for checking the credentials is with PIA, the hiring airline and if the entire testing is faked then it is with the country's regulatory agency. Still 1 in 3 is a lot, even for a corruption prone country like Pakistan.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:28 am

BA777FO wrote:
maint123 wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
For years India has been finding pilots with falsified licenses. In Nepal as well.
This is not surprising that this exists in Pakistan as well.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-m ... ots-449891
https://www.aviationnepal.com/press-rel ... ke-pilots/

Interesting link of ndtv.
The heading is 4000 fake pilots . Article says 4000 pilots being investigated. And since in 2011 , India had a total of 5000 pilots with 1000 expats pilots, the story is a bit fake Or a lot fake ?
Obvious attempt at whataboutism with sensational news.
The last commercial plane crash in India was in mangalore in 2010, when the pilot misjudged landing on a short runway.
Pilot - British expat.


The Captain of that flight was Zlatko Glušica, he had British and Serbian nationality - had never flown for a UK airline and was previously employed by JAT Airways of Serbia. So not quite the story you're spinning!

Hmm. So he had British and Serbian nationality.
If he crashes a plane, he is Serbian if he saves a plane, he is British.
Heard this so many times before. Especially the "British " Caribbean athletes getting Olympic medals, with 1 year residency in uk, getting fast tracked nationality. Unless they get involved in crime, then they are all Caribbean.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 570
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:39 am

maint123 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Interesting link of ndtv.
The heading is 4000 fake pilots . Article says 4000 pilots being investigated. And since in 2011 , India had a total of 5000 pilots with 1000 expats pilots, the story is a bit fake Or a lot fake ?
Obvious attempt at whataboutism with sensational news.
The last commercial plane crash in India was in mangalore in 2010, when the pilot misjudged landing on a short runway.
Pilot - British expat.


The Captain of that flight was Zlatko Glušica, he had British and Serbian nationality - had never flown for a UK airline and was previously employed by JAT Airways of Serbia. So not quite the story you're spinning!

Hmm. So he had British and Serbian nationality.
If he crashes a plane, he is Serbian if he saves a plane, he is British.
Heard this so many times before. Especially the "British " Caribbean athletes getting Olympic medals, with 1 year residency in uk, getting fast tracked nationality. Unless they get involved in crime, then they are all Caribbean.


Never said anything of the sort - I merely pointed out that you were being liberal with the truth, so I added some facts to your post.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:45 am

Hey yo, Vietnam bans all Pakistan-origin pilots or pilots using Pakistan's license: https://kenh14.vn/viet-nam-cam-bay-voi-phi-cong-pakistan-hoac-phi-cong-nuoc-ngoai-co-bang-do-pakistan-cap-20200627142504321.chn

The Minister of Transport requested the Vietnam Aviation Administration to review and immediately bans the execution of flight missions of all Pakistani national pilots and foreign pilots (working for Vietnamese carriers), diplomas and certificates (suspected of counterfeiting) issued by Pakistan.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Even if you could get a fake license, surely you wouldn't be able to get through the tests to enter an airline, unless the airline is totally corrupt as well? I could have done a better job at landing that plane after 10 beers and a pot noodle.



Everything gets easier with repetition. Get a couple months of simulator time and with practice you to can be proficient at flying an airliner 9-11 proved that without a shadow of a doubt.


Maybe with enough repetition they'll learn to put the gear down and not fly the approach at 250 knots.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:09 am

Repercussions have started-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenew ... it-airways
"Dubious licences issue: Seven Pak pilots, 56 engineers grounded by Kuwait Airways
June 28, 2020
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven...
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.
As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven Pakistani pilots and 56 engineers while lists of Pakistani pilots engineers and ground handling staff have been prepared by Qatar, Oman and Vietnam airlines. Decision has been taken to keep Pakistani staff grounded unless the report about them is received from Pakistan authorities."
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:56 am

I am not surprised. I met many people from that part of the world claiming they highly educated, but the reality was something different.

But of course the Pakistian fanboys use the "WHATABOUTISM". There have been a few cases of fake licences recently in other parts of the world, these are rare since most countries actually have a proficient civil aviation regulatory body and aren't corrupt.

I still wonder what happened on PK8303 as this whole accident sounds really weird to me and we should ask questions how and why the pilots did what they did. (Not implying that the crew had fake licences)
 
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Antaras
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:52 am

sixfootscream wrote:
I still wonder what happened on PK8303 as this whole accident sounds really weird to me and we should ask questions how and why the pilots did what they did. (Not implying that the crew had fake licences)

Agree. The failed landing (lead to the fatal turnaround) was too weird. Wrong procedure, attitude problems, pilots were talking about coronavirus wHiLE LAndiNg.
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Kikko19
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:02 pm

maint123 wrote:
Repercussions have started-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenew ... it-airways
"Dubious licences issue: Seven Pak pilots, 56 engineers grounded by Kuwait Airways
June 28, 2020
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven...
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.
As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven Pakistani pilots and 56 engineers while lists of Pakistani pilots engineers and ground handling staff have been prepared by Qatar, Oman and Vietnam airlines. Decision has been taken to keep Pakistani staff grounded unless the report about them is received from Pakistan authorities."

I bet that this problem is not exclusive to Pakistan, I know many Bangladesh people with fake diplomas just about everything. Hopefully the scandal will clear up many fields in many countries.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:24 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Repercussions have started-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenew ... it-airways
"Dubious licences issue: Seven Pak pilots, 56 engineers grounded by Kuwait Airways
June 28, 2020
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven...
ISLAMABAD: Foreign airlines are said to have started action against Pakistani employees on the matter of suspicious licences of pilots.
As per media reports Kuwait airlines has grounded seven Pakistani pilots and 56 engineers while lists of Pakistani pilots engineers and ground handling staff have been prepared by Qatar, Oman and Vietnam airlines. Decision has been taken to keep Pakistani staff grounded unless the report about them is received from Pakistan authorities."

I bet that this problem is not exclusive to Pakistan, I know many Bangladesh people with fake diplomas just about everything. Hopefully the scandal will clear up many fields in many countries.

I wrote about the fake axact university based in Pakistan, which was exposed internationally as a fraud in 2015. It never shutdown, just changed its name and divided itself into smaller companies.
The Pakistan army has become the front for it now
https://www.google.com/amp/s/acei-globa ... prise/amp/
"Axact (Private) Ltd., Karachi, Pakistan, ceased existing in about January 2020. The Axact main office building is now the Crest Tower DHA (Defense Housing Authority) [Pakistan Army]. This is cosmetic only!! While ‘Axact’ was changing its name on the front of their building (cosmetic only), their employees inside never left their desks nor stopped selling fake degrees."
DHA is karachi's poshest area.

Pakistan is a unique case where criminality is not seen as bad , just a means to an end.
Bangladesh has nothing on it. Maybe a handful of low level fake diplomas .
But one third pilots in Pakistan who never gave their exams to become pilots ?
Think about it.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1283
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:47 pm

As long as the used goats are real Pakistani aviation will be safe regardless of the fuss about licenses.
 
User avatar
intrance
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


Just never think that your country or your favorite airline is above these things... For example, the airline from your nickname has a person in "hiring/acceptance committee" that also runs a business charging pilots for a preparation course for the hiring process of said airline. If two pilots go into the hiring process, and one has followed this "prep course" at that persons business, and the other one has not, every single time the one who has indirectly put a couple of hundred euros into the pocket of the person on the hiring committee got hired. I've known a fair amount of them and some of the ones that got through, at the expense of much better candidates, I would not even trust flying a kite...

Nasty stuff like this happens everywhere, but in varying degrees of shall we say... Overtness?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2136
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:31 pm

Blerg wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.


I don't think the 737 Max is the real problem here. What we are talking about here is one of the symptoms of what this thread is about. Anyone can fly a plane when things go right real airman know how to fly out of danger (When it's possible). We've seen to many times where pilots panic under pressure cause very avoidable accidents. To many crew today rely on the computer systems to fly the plane rather than knowing how to fly out of danger.


Wasn't there a case when UA and AA pilots found themselves in the same situation like ET and Lion Air flights that crashed? I remember reading that they were better trained to handle such situations which prevented catastrophes. Also, I don't see why every time we are talking flaws in other systems we immediately feel the need to point what's wrong with our own.Criticizing those who are different from us does not make us automatically racist.


The issue is, there are two crowds - one where Boeing and the MAX are evil and one where Boeing did no wrong and the pilots are to blame. The reality is a blend of the two. While more experienced and/or trained pilots may have been able to avert the disaster, the core issue is still that the MAX was not a functional aircraft with a single point of failure on the AoA. UA/AA pilots being able to fly it (and the Lion Air pilot on the flight before the fatal one) was more akin to a surgeon cutting their vein and having the skills to fix it up. Sure, they may not bleed to death, but thats merely masking the core problem of why is their vein being cut.

Boeing screwed up and some experienced pilots were able to put a band aid on the situation for a period of time. The reality is 50% of pilots are below average, expecting this to somehow be handled 100% of the time by a pilot is unrealistic.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:16 am

klm617 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:

And in this day and age the mob will accuse you for it. So beware.

The only time I ever saw a "mob" was when people were trying to suggest that non Western cultures were at fault for crashing a plane that had an incredibly lethal design flaw.


Again the DC10 and Lockheed Electra flew with lethal design flaws as their problems were being addressed.

Not sure how this is relevant.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4899
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:12 am

LCDFlight wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This goes to the very culturally "sensitive" topics like, why do "Western" crews simply crash less often? They are from a culture that does not tolerate fake credentials, but it does allows collaborative thinking. Yes, nobody is perfect.

The 737 Max certification story shows we have problems too.

Tell me? What collaborative thinking is it to BE qualified at what you do?


I can't tell what you are asking, but I was referring to CRM. Captain listening to co-pilot when he or she declares a go-around, avoiding their deaths. Things like that. I'm not a pilot, but we have people in the forum who are.

If you are in a culture such as South Korea, the captain is your "Oppa" and you just have to do what he says, not discuss how his decisions affect safety. This is just me talking, if anybody else has more credible words please say so.

that's what they call "Crew Resource Management" .(CRM), and it came after a couple of Bad accidents where the pilots not in command were afraid to tell the Captain he might be wrong!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4899
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:18 am

CobaltScar wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
How is this possible in todays world? Do the doctors have fake licenses as well?

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964


This is exactly why I will never fly one of these airlines based in these suspect countries where corruption is the law of the land.


And in this day and age the mob will accuse you for it. So beware.

this could be solved by having flight examiners from outside of the country fly with the suspect pilots to SEE if they know what they're doing! Or letting them sit in on their recurrent training in the simulator to see whether they have their "chops" up to speed. In one simulator session they would know whether the crew is up to snuff.
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Fake pilot licenses in Pakistan?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:58 am

Corruption is not an endemic plague, but no one can deny that Pakistan is particularly affected.

PIA belongs to the EU Air Safety List (Annex A) until strong measures are taken. Too bad for the honest, really qualified pakistani staff, but safety is at stake.

It will not be easy
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