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Crosswind
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:20 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
I remember the same but they still went to order nine more A310s, of the -325 variant.


I think a lot of people forget (or chose not to remember) that Delta chose to place orders for new build A310s of their own.

The Delta Museum has a short history of the type in their service;
https://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/delta-history/aircraft-by-type/jet/airbus-a310

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:34 pm

DLHAM wrote:
deltacto wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Actually they had 7 -200s and 14 -300s.


Yes ... and all 21 went to Delta in 1991 .... keeping their original PA registrations


On a side note: why was Delta not interested in the A300 fleet? Too close to the 767-300A? Would have complemented the A310 fleet well. Maybe the leases were too expensive?


Pan Am operated a very small A300-RB4 fleet of just 13 planes. They were not long-haul capable A300-600 variants and likely on high leases given Pan Am's credit rating at the time, and Delta had no use for them. They also got rid of the A310's quickly. They were an interim solution for Delta. They were gone by 1995 and replaced with a top up 767-300ER order.
 
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Wildlander
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:58 pm

A bit adrift from the original A310-200 question, but to complete the story... Delta ordered the new-build -325s in a deal that was structured in such a way that they could return the planes early (as, it transpired, was the case for the ex PA A310-300s). Airbus saw this a securing the existing A310-300 fleet, backed by what they felt were assurances that it was part of a long term relationship. Delta saw it as a good deal. Days before the first -325 was due to be delivered Delta advise Airbus that they would be terminating the leases for the existing planes, meaning that the yet-to-be delivered -325s would form a tiny orphan fleet. Meaning in turn that Delta was (indirectly) signalling that they too would be returned way before the end of the expected lease term. Planes with a unique (dare I say) unattractive FCY layout. Many at Airbus felt that they had been "let down".
 
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deltacto
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:29 pm

I've always wondered about - the ship numbers that Delta assigned to the A-310's
The A310-200's: N801PA thru N807PA became ships 001-007
The A310-300's :N811PA thru N824PA became ships 021-034

So Delta skipped the range 011-020 ... I never understood why.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:05 pm

amc737 wrote:
Typically from Heathrow Pan Am had up to 9 Trans Atlantic flights per day, (3 JFK, 1 IAD, 1 MIA, 1 DTW, 1 SFO 1 LAX 1 SEA) although the west coast services only all operated daily in peak summer. Only Detroit was usually an A310 and the aircraft would swap at Heathrow with a A310 that arrived from an European destination - i.e the A310 would operate JFK-BRU-LHR-DTW-LHR-BRU-JFK

As Pan Am declined coupled with the recession and Gulf War A310s replaced 747's on Washington and some JFK's along with Detroit. N801PA-N804PA certainly flew transatlantic into Heathrow. When Pan Am sold its Heathrow authority Detroit and Miami routes where not included in the sale to United and moved (with a months gap) to Gatwick, Detroit continued with the same flight numbers PA54/55 and was operated with an A310 until these routes where sold to Delta although Delta did continue to use A310's into Gatwick

amc737


The Detroit flight operated as CLE-DTW-LHR, then LGW and back on the same A310.
 
N649DL
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:41 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I think both the -200s and -300s flew TATL ultimately. You're right that JFK-HAM, BRU, OSL (FBU) saw them, and the A310 also operated DTW-LHR, JFK-ZRH, and JFK-MXP (and FCO at times). There were I think 15 A313s and 16 A312s if I remember correctly. Not sure about the cabin interiors being configured differently.


Actually they had 7 -200s and 14 -300s.

Cointrin330 wrote:
As to the 1990s fleet plan, wasn't there an A320 order planned or was that order repurposed into the A310 order?



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1444283

PA should have transitionned to an almost all Airbus fleet.



A310s characteristics: https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... c-2009.pdf


Yes and a few PA A320s were actually built and went to Braniff and America West. The ones that went to America West might've actually had Pan Am interiors installed.
 
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tamasm
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:44 am

If I remember correctly they also flew JFK-VIE-BUD.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:26 am

Wildlander wrote:
A bit adrift from the original A310-200 question, but to complete the story... Delta ordered the new-build -325s in a deal that was structured in such a way that they could return the planes early (as, it transpired, was the case for the ex PA A310-300s). Airbus saw this a securing the existing A310-300 fleet, backed by what they felt were assurances that it was part of a long term relationship. Delta saw it as a good deal. Days before the first -325 was due to be delivered Delta advise Airbus that they would be terminating the leases for the existing planes, meaning that the yet-to-be delivered -325s would form a tiny orphan fleet. Meaning in turn that Delta was (indirectly) signalling that they too would be returned way before the end of the expected lease term. Planes with a unique (dare I say) unattractive FCY layout. Many at Airbus felt that they had been "let down".


as we know today, it turned into the beginnings of what transpired to be a beautiful friendship between DA and Airbus!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:53 am

Wildlander wrote:
I doubt if Delta management realised (or cared?) how much the A310s were in need of t.l.c. until the maintenance and ops teams inherited them.

Shame Pan Am were perennially known for bashing the sh*t out of their birds. When their Tristars went to United in 1985, UA maintenance crew went over the planes with red sharpies outlining dents and dings that needed buffing, patching, filling, whatever. Apparently when they were done, the planes looked like they had chickenpox. That’s per Skygods: The Fall Of Pan Am by Robert Gandt, a set text for this industry, everyone must read it (although some already have, as I’m not the first person to refer to it on this thread).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
MACDADDY
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:34 am

This is a very interesting thread, thanks for posting. Never knew PA had A310's in europe or F100's on order!

I flew a Pan Am A310 (not sure which series) on the 30th August 1988, MCO-MIA. which has always been a bit odd for me flying such a short route on a widebody, but i do remember it (i was 8 at the time)

I wondered if anyone can tell me what series that might have been and also would anyone have a way to find out the registration??

MTIA

MAC
 
Frictionfool
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:37 pm

I recall flying a PA A310 BCN to JFK in June 1991. I think they had just started the BCN route earlier that year. I used FF miles on that trip, before PA went bankrupt and leaving me with a big wad of potentially useless miles.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:46 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Wildlander wrote:
A bit adrift from the original A310-200 question, but to complete the story... Delta ordered the new-build -325s in a deal that was structured in such a way that they could return the planes early (as, it transpired, was the case for the ex PA A310-300s). Airbus saw this a securing the existing A310-300 fleet, backed by what they felt were assurances that it was part of a long term relationship. Delta saw it as a good deal. Days before the first -325 was due to be delivered Delta advise Airbus that they would be terminating the leases for the existing planes, meaning that the yet-to-be delivered -325s would form a tiny orphan fleet. Meaning in turn that Delta was (indirectly) signalling that they too would be returned way before the end of the expected lease term. Planes with a unique (dare I say) unattractive FCY layout. Many at Airbus felt that they had been "let down".


as we know today, it turned into the beginnings of what transpired to be a beautiful friendship between DA and Airbus!


Not exactly accurate. Delta's love affair with Airbus actually came to be post-NW merger. NW was a big Airbus customer (A320, A319 and later the A330-300s and the A330-200s). Legacy, pre-merger Delta was principally a Boeing and McDonnell Douglas operator and sourced very few planes from Airbus. Delta, post-merger came to be really pleased with the economics of Airbus jets.
 
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:52 pm

Frictionfool wrote:
I recall flying a PA A310 BCN to JFK in June 1991. I think they had just started the BCN route earlier that year. I used FF miles on that trip, before PA went bankrupt and leaving me with a big wad of potentially useless miles.


Yes, the route was indeed short lived. Pan Am agreed to sell its TATL portfolio (less the LHR routes which, apart from 2 that were excluded per Bermuda II, which went to UA a year earlier), the European network was sold to Delta in August 1991. Pan Am shut down for good in December (5th) 1991.

Compared to TWA, Pan Am was not as strong in Southern Europe. It flew to Madrid, Rome, and Milan (Milan was added long after Rome, as I recall), and served ATH via FRA, not nonstop, and didn't serve LIS or BCN until very late. I am not 100% certain they flew to LIS, though I seem to recall they did because DL had TP fly the route for them in the mid-1990s at JFK but not sure if it was a route authority they had or a new service post Pan Am.
 
catiii
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

PA should have transitionned to an almost all Airbus fleet.


My first recollection of a DL A310 was DTW-LHR, or maybe CVG-CDG? It was a definite 'What is this? Not a 767 nor L-1011' moment.

By the time Pan Am sold routes to DL it was cooked - irreparably damaged. It wouldn't have mattered what they were flying. As mentioned, even well before then they didn't have the cash flow to conduct a comprehensive widebody refleeting.


I think that was a DTW-LGW routing. DL didn’t get LHR rights with the acquisition. Those had gone to UA. I believe that flight tagged to CLE as well. I recall landing in CLE one night and it had been replaced by the L15 going to DTW then onward to Europe.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:46 am

catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

PA should have transitionned to an almost all Airbus fleet.


My first recollection of a DL A310 was DTW-LHR, or maybe CVG-CDG? It was a definite 'What is this? Not a 767 nor L-1011' moment.

By the time Pan Am sold routes to DL it was cooked - irreparably damaged. It wouldn't have mattered what they were flying. As mentioned, even well before then they didn't have the cash flow to conduct a comprehensive widebody refleeting.


I think that was a DTW-LGW routing. DL didn’t get LHR rights with the acquisition. Those had gone to UA. I believe that flight tagged to CLE as well. I recall landing in CLE one night and it had been replaced by the L15 going to DTW then onward to Europe.


Pan Am operated an A310 as CLE-DTW-LHR and then to LGW very briefly before the end of the airline. The DTW-LHR and MIA-LHR route authorities were not part of the sale to UA and for a short time, PA continued to operate into LHR post the start of the UA service on the former PA routes and then moved to LGW. Delta never flew DTW-LHR until after the merger with NW, which was announced in 2008 just as the Bermuda II governance around LHR was scrapped giving the non-UA/AA US carriers access to LHR as well. Delta did operate flights to ORY in Paris and then moved to CDG. It's possible they used the A310 on their CVG flights to Europe after 1991 and before 1995, but in the early to mid-90s CVG was a huge hub for Delta, second only to ATL, and most TATL flying was on L1011s and 767s, but it's possible the A310 was flown to CVG as well. Delta actually stripped away a lot of Pan Am's TATL routes from JFK and intra-Europe not that long after the acquisition was completed. Core markets were served but DL in the mid-1990s was leveraging individual airline partnerships to operate a lot of the JFK to Europe TATL flying, including SR for GVA, ZRH, SN for BRU, EI for DUB/SNN, TP for LIS, and VS for LHR which they could not serve anyway. Delta also had a stretched widebody fleet at the time. The L1011 and 767s were the workhorse of DL's core TATL route network then from ATL, CVG, and DFW to Europe. They ordered more 763s to replace the A310's and eventually, the 763s became the mainstay of a lot of TATL flying from JFK. The MD11s began arriving in 1991 but were focused around TPAC services and a limited number of big markets in Europe for DL at the time, including FRA, LGW. The 777s didn't arrive until 1999. The A310 was phased out in 1995.
 
XRadar98
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Wildlander wrote:
A bit adrift from the original A310-200 question, but to complete the story... Delta ordered the new-build -325s in a deal that was structured in such a way that they could return the planes early (as, it transpired, was the case for the ex PA A310-300s). Airbus saw this a securing the existing A310-300 fleet, backed by what they felt were assurances that it was part of a long term relationship. Delta saw it as a good deal. Days before the first -325 was due to be delivered Delta advise Airbus that they would be terminating the leases for the existing planes, meaning that the yet-to-be delivered -325s would form a tiny orphan fleet. Meaning in turn that Delta was (indirectly) signalling that they too would be returned way before the end of the expected lease term. Planes with a unique (dare I say) unattractive FCY layout. Many at Airbus felt that they had been "let down".


as we know today, it turned into the beginnings of what transpired to be a beautiful friendship between DA and Airbus!


Not exactly accurate. Delta's love affair with Airbus actually came to be post-NW merger. NW was a big Airbus customer (A320, A319 and later the A330-300s and the A330-200s). Legacy, pre-merger Delta was principally a Boeing and McDonnell Douglas operator and sourced very few planes from Airbus. Delta, post-merger came to be really pleased with the economics of Airbus jets.


The last line I believe, was tongue in cheek. Sometimes humor evaporates in the internet ether. It had nothing to with your historical correction, which is appreciated.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:54 am

XRadar98 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
cougar15 wrote:

as we know today, it turned into the beginnings of what transpired to be a beautiful friendship between DA and Airbus!


Not exactly accurate. Delta's love affair with Airbus actually came to be post-NW merger. NW was a big Airbus customer (A320, A319 and later the A330-300s and the A330-200s). Legacy, pre-merger Delta was principally a Boeing and McDonnell Douglas operator and sourced very few planes from Airbus. Delta, post-merger came to be really pleased with the economics of Airbus jets.


The last line I believe, was tongue in cheek. Sometimes humor evaporates in the internet ether. It had nothing to with your historical correction, which is appreciated.


Got it. Thank you!
 
aaway
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:49 am

From the June 1985 issue of Pan Am Clipper:
- A310-200s entered service June 1st, Berlin-Frankfurt
- Four initial A310-200s were leased aircraft
- Pan Am-Airbus Industrie contract for 12 A310-300 and 16 A320 signed May 30th (1985).
- Is mentioned that the contract represented a keystone in the future fleet plan for long, medium & short range aircraft.
- Is mentioned that A310-300 was destined for use mainly in U.S., Caribbean & Latin America networks.
- The leased aircraft were originally tabbed for return to lessors as the new aircraft were delivered. (Obviously, this was later altered as a result of the A320 order cancellations.)
- A300B4s were leased and used primarily on Caribbean, though flew other U.S. sectors. (FWIW, it's mentioned in later issues of Clipper that CCS & MEX saw the A300, and new Ireland service initiated for Summer '86 would be flown by A300s)
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:08 am

aaway wrote:
From the June 1985 issue of Pan Am Clipper:
- A310-200s entered service June 1st, Berlin-Frankfurt
- Four initial A310-200s were leased aircraft
- Pan Am-Airbus Industrie contract for 12 A310-300 and 16 A320 signed May 30th (1985).
- Is mentioned that the contract represented a keystone in the future fleet plan for long, medium & short range aircraft.
- Is mentioned that A310-300 was destined for use mainly in U.S., Caribbean & Latin America networks.
- The leased aircraft were originally tabbed for return to lessors as the new aircraft were delivered. (Obviously, this was later altered as a result of the A320 order cancellations.)
- A300B4s were leased and used primarily on Caribbean, though flew other U.S. sectors. (FWIW, it's mentioned in later issues of Clipper that CCS & MEX saw the A300, and new Ireland service initiated for Summer '86 would be flown by A300s)


Very interesting, including that Ireland service with an A300... Could it do it nonstop?
 
phllax
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:52 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Very interesting, including that Ireland service with an A300... Could it do it nonstop?


Just barely. AA flew JFK/BOS - London right after 9/11 briefly with A300's and I remember them having issues Westbound of course.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:58 pm

And AA’s A300s were -600Rs. Longer range.

I can’t imagine PA flying an A300B4-203 across the Atlantic. I flew them YYZ-BGI, and that was about it for range!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:32 pm

The common ULD capabilities with the rest of PA’s wide-body fleet was a majorly important strategic decision.

It is interesting how in the

- small Airbus A310 / 767 -

Sales competition, the “narrower” 7 abreast version wide-body triumphed in this market, while in the

- DC-9 stretch / 737-200 -

sales competition, the “wider” 6 abreast design perpetuated. Pan Am’s A310 decision was probably a very good decision. Unfortunately, Pan Am was overshadowed by hateful terroristic world international events cumulating with the financial spiral and traffic downturn beginning with Lockerbie. The forward directional momentum of an object with substantial mass in aviation, is not easily overcome with a rudder. Ailerons are for that in aviation.

Pan Am just needed a little more time altitude to top the mass mountain. The A310 was as good of a choice (and probably the best) as any during this era of the Epoch of Pan Am.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:07 pm

phllax wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Very interesting, including that Ireland service with an A300... Could it do it nonstop?


Just barely. AA flew JFK/BOS - London right after 9/11 briefly with A300's and I remember them having issues Westbound of course.


AA re-assigned some of their A300-600's on several TATL routes before 9/11, in the late 1990s. They used them on a few JFK-LHR frequencies, BOS-LHR, and BOS-CDG when the route existed. They did indeed have some issues westbound at times.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:28 pm

If Pan Am were around ... they would be looking for a new wide-body. The end is here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2432U0
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
amc737
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:42 pm

Just to add American started transatlantic A300 flights in January 1997, I think they where meant to start in 1996 but had got delayed. Initially 8 aircraft where used, a further 2 where converted for transatlantic use so a total of 10 where used. I think they stopped transatlantic in 2001 as American sufficient 777's by then. Apart from Heathrow they all visited Gatwick at some point as for a brief period they operated Boston to Gatwick, this route did not last very long. I don't think they ever operated to Paris CDG as Orly was Americans Paris airport and although they moved to CDG in the 00's by then the A300's had stopped transatlantic.

amc737
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:14 pm

amc737 wrote:
Just to add American started transatlantic A300 flights in January 1997, I think they where meant to start in 1996 but had got delayed. Initially 8 aircraft where used, a further 2 where converted for transatlantic use so a total of 10 where used. I think they stopped transatlantic in 2001 as American sufficient 777's by then. Apart from Heathrow they all visited Gatwick at some point as for a brief period they operated Boston to Gatwick, this route did not last very long. I don't think they ever operated to Paris CDG as Orly was Americans Paris airport and although they moved to CDG in the 00's by then the A300's had stopped transatlantic.

amc737


AA moved its operation in Paris from ORY to CDG in 1999, I believe. There was a sub fleet of A300s that operated TATL from JFK and BOS, to LHR and ORY in the late 1990s. This was a stop gap measure. The 777s were ordered starting in Q4-1996 and deliveries began in 1997. AA's JFK-ORY flight originally operated with a 767-200ER when it launched, in 1987, then up-gauged to a 767-300ER by the mid-1990s and in the late 1990s, was shifted to an A300 before settling back to a 763. In the first half of 2001, AA was running a 777 to CDG from JFK, then added a second daily flight, AA 121, on a 757 (at times it was a 767-300ER) as it absorbed TWA's JFK-CDG traffic which by 2001 and the end of TWA, was down to a single 767 service from JFK. AA swapped out the 763 in 2019 for the 772 and all JFK TATL routes went 772 by April 2019, with 2 LHR frequencies on the 77W and the GRU route also operated by 77W.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:33 pm

phllax wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Very interesting, including that Ireland service with an A300... Could it do it nonstop?


Just barely. AA flew JFK/BOS - London right after 9/11 briefly with A300's and I remember them having issues Westbound of course.


If AA had issues Westbound, PA would have had to stop somewhere on the east coast with their B4-203 to get more fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A3 ... ifications
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Question about Pan Am's A310-200s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:59 pm

Thread is going off topic here.
For those that want to add to the AA AB6 there is currently a topic running in the backwaters of Travel polls and preferences

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1448327

Please feel free to add your tuppence worth.

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