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LX015
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Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:42 pm

I'm curious to know what pilots here in this forum think in regards to this pilot's decision to continue with takeoff after an engine explosion happened prior to V1. If you are not familiar with this case, here is a youtube recreation with CVR audio.

https://youtu.be/hnOP34s0myY?t=174

(no, this is not my youtube page fishing for views)

Thanks in advance.
 
bennett123
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:12 pm

I am not a pilot.

I note that the fire happened at 4 Knots below V1.

However, would the pilots reasonably have had time to react before V1 was attained.

Personally, I doubt it.
 
jporterfi
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:34 pm

I'm a private pilot with ASEL privileges, so I've never had to deal with V1 in regards to single engine failures on multi-engine aircraft.

In the YouTube video, the captain states "continue" (presumably recognizing and identifying the situation at that point), and then states "V1" approximately one second later. IIRC, all single-engine failure checklists during takeoff state that the pilots should discontinue takeoff if a failure or other issue occurs before V1. I don't understand why the captain instructed the first officer to continue takeoff before V1 had been reached, unless he identified other factors that would have prevented the aircraft from safely stopping on the remaining runway.
PPC (ASEL) | Aircraft Flown: PA28, C172, DA20
 
VSMUT
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:46 pm

bennett123 wrote:
However, would the pilots reasonably have had time to react before V1 was attained.


Reaction time is compensated for in V1.

Local circumstances such was runway, aircraft loading/performance or weather conditions could give reason for doing otherwise.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=174761

Runway 16R is 3900 meters long. I'm not an expert on the 767, but I doubt that it would require a balanced field takeoff. He ended up doing an overweight landing which resulted in burst tires.

IMO, the captain took the wrong decision. I think he was too go minded and lacked situational awareness. It is always better to take an issue on the ground. As much as you want to trust the equipment, there is always a chance that, say, the fire can't be extinguished or that the explosion caused structural damage. The runway was long enough to stop safely at V1, likely even at a higher speed. Looking at some of the other videos, the fire and first visual warnings in the cockpit came on several seconds before the aural warning, so he wasn't even monitoring the instruments properly.
 
Fatbus
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:57 pm

Wrong decision. Ample time to react and reject .
 
deebee278
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:04 pm

If the aircraft is heavy enough and/or the runway short enough, you have what's called a "balanced field length". This means that you have JUST enough room to accelerate to V1 and stop on the allotted runway (hopefully) but only if you have already BEGUN the abort procedure by V1. It takes at least a few seconds for a heavy aircraft to go from an acceleration to deceleration mode. When I was flying in that situation, I would take my right hand off the throttles about three knots below V1 (the Copilot was guarding the throttles) because at that point, I knew we were 'going flying'.

If you are starting a one hour flight and have 11,000 feet of runway then things are easier. I don't know the particulars about the described flight.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:35 pm

Fatbus wrote:
Wrong decision. Ample time to react and reject .

BS. The 767 at MTOW (and balanced field) is getting closer to the runway end pretty fast. I for one, having quite a few hours on the 767 worldwide would not want to abort very close to V1. Landing right back well over MLW on a long runway is not an issue. I have tried that.
 
kalvado
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[ He ended up doing an overweight landing which resulted in burst tires.

If I remember correctly, safety criteria for high speed fully loaded rejection is that resulting fire doesn't spread on the airplane for 3 minutes - nominal arrival time for firefighters. Burst tires sound as a non-event compared to that.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:59 pm

LX015 wrote:
I'm curious to know what pilots here in this forum think in regards to this pilot's decision to continue with takeoff after an engine explosion happened prior to V1. If you are not familiar with this case, here is a youtube recreation with CVR audio.

https://youtu.be/hnOP34s0myY?t=174

(no, this is not my youtube page fishing for views)

Thanks in advance.


By the time the brain recognized what was happening, they were too close to V1 at that point. I believe the captain made the right decision. Excellent CRM and outcome.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Fatbus
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:00 pm

For some it might be worth reading the definition of V1 including " pilot reaction time " . BFL has margins but with thrust related problems the captain has to ensure enough to reach VR and make the screen height.
 
LONGisland89
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:58 am

Maurizio Guzzetti explains one of the reasons why he made that decision in this TED Talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDOyXPZcx18
 
bigb
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:25 am

We usually V1 about 5 knots prior to to the v1 bug speed.Human factors being involved, you have to compensate for I call the oh shit moment (the slight delay time to it takes your brain to just process what just happened and to quickly react to the way it was trained/learned to react in that moment.

In terms of if it’s the right or wrong decision, I won’t say it rather it was right or wrong. But chances are, if I was in that situation and we were that close to V1, I will most likely take it into the air. I’ll have a better chance with dealing with a problem it in the air then trying to execute a RTO on ground at or after the aircraft have reach V1.
 
reltney
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 am

Fantastic analysis on many. I am a high time 767 guy and 4kts on an analogue airspeed it’s is a blink of an eye...the data recorder sees a speed Digitally but the indicated might be different due to gusts or what ever. 4 kits. I challenge the most nerdy armchair pilot in the sim to make that decision. By the way, if you get it wrong I will hit you with judgement from non pilots and a base ball bat....

Be careful who you judge and ask yourself...could you do it.....

Cheers...
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:33 am

Well we have the armchair expert Monday morning quarterback brigade at work today.

Firstly to answer the original question, yes the decision made by the Captain to continue the takeoff was correct. Why? Because the aircraft safely made it into the air, and then return for a safe landing with no loss of life for passengers.

Why not reject the takeoff? Plenty of reasons.
Airline pilots are trained to be “go minded” close to V1. A Rejected Takeoff Off is a difficult manoeuvre if conducted right on the limits. It has to be done precisely. If not a risk of an overrun and disastrous collision with ground objects is high.

Human factors come into play. No one expects a fire warning to occur 4kts before V1, and a decision has to be made INSTANTLY. There’s zero time to assess the situation. The Captain obviously made an instant decision. He assessed within a second it was better to get the aircraft in the air to a safe height and run the engine fire drill there, than attempt a reject at V1 with a substantial chance of a disastrous overrun of one thing went wrong.

For all practical purposes that close to V1 you basically are past the point of no return. As the poster about stated it is common for Captains to take their hands off the thrust levers prior to V1 to ensure a startle reaction doesn’t cause an inadvertent reject at V1.

Like I said before it isn’t always better to remain on the ground than to get in the air, take a deep breath and deal with the problem then, than try to bring 200tonnes of metal screaming to a stop hoping you don’t run out of flat ground before you stop moving.

As much as you want to trust the equipment, there is always a chance that, say, the fire can't be extinguished or that the explosion caused structural damage.


At that point the only information the pilots had was a fire bell. That means there’s an overheat condition in an engine, not an “explosion”. The way pilots are trained to recognise failure of an engine isn’t noises (which could be burst tyres) or fire warnings, it is a loss of thrust from an engine which causes an immediate yaw in the direction of the failed engine. It happens instantly with a loss of thrust. In the split second the captain had to decide he may have sensed the lack of yaw as a sign there was still some thrust coming from the engine with the warning.

Engine pods can be isolated from the wing via their fuel and hydraulic cutoff valves. The fire will burn itself out in the pod. They were able to get the aircraft back on the ground after only 4 minutes anyway. Remarkable skills.
 
worldranger
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:04 am

Fatbus wrote:
Wrong decision. Ample time to react and reject .


Why so black & white?

I’m in my third decade of flying jets, and most of my time is in multiple heavy Boeing types - the startle effect combined with normal flying ops has a factor here. Four seconds in a sim when you have prepared for some weeks for a training or checking event that will probably have an RTO - is a totally different matter than a normal day out.

Many guys I know silently & slowly say to themselves on TO roll ‘stop, stop, stop’ prior to 80knots & then ‘stop/go‘ until V1 minus 5-6knots, and then finally...’go’.
Actually registering the startle combined with the fact that the FO was PF confronted the PIC with that decision.


Overall this outcome was positive - massive amount of inertia, the ‘go’ motor mechanics far more enshrined and similar to normal ops, smooth deliberate rotation, practiced every time one flies - as against an aggressive cockpit maneuver practiced twice a year.

Wrong decision? ...Big call
 
mmo
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:59 am

Both Boeing and Airbus have done extensive studies of high speed rejected takeoffs vs continuing. Clearly a high speed rejected takeoff has more risks involved than continuing the takeoff. I worked for several carriers who always used a wet V1 in order to reduce the V1 speed thus, flight operations had a "go" philosophy.

Trying to "second guess" the PIC and his decision is a waste of time. I say that with 40 years of military and commercial flying. First of all, we don't have all the facts, such as TOGW, runway condition, gross weight and on and on. To the best of my knowledge the accident investigation board didn't have any issues with his decision, so why are we not only second-guessing the PIC but the accident board?

Finally, perhaps all the "judges" should list their qualifications before passing judgement on the Captain.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:31 pm

mmo wrote:
To the best of my knowledge the accident investigation board didn't have any issues with his decision, so why are we not only second-guessing the PIC but the accident board?


It lets those who are jealous they will never become an airline pilot have a temporary smug satisfaction they can criticise a Captain who safely landed his aircraft as they post their theories anonymously whilst they still live in their parent’s basements.

Maybe we should label them “Keyboard Captains.” Do you think his company will fire him or the regulator strip him of his licence because posters on an Internet forum don’t like the decision he made?

If any one of you met this Captain in real life, would you walk up to him and say “I am an MS FlightSim Pilot, or a PPL, and I think you made the wrong decision and you should've rejected the takeoff?” No-one would!
 
ERAUMBA
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:26 pm

The ego and id of the posters in this forum is incredible.

None of you have any experience with a max takeoff weight -300ER on a hot and windy day with a motor on fire. None of you. None. Zero.

Also, this incident was SIXTEEN years ago. What good is it to criticize an obviously experienced aviator?

Please, go back to flight sim and leave the flying to the professionals. Good god.
 
kalvado
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:47 pm

mmo wrote:
Both Boeing and Airbus have done extensive studies of high speed rejected takeoffs vs continuing. Clearly a high speed rejected takeoff has more risks involved than continuing the takeoff. I worked for several carriers who always used a wet V1 in order to reduce the V1 speed thus, flight operations had a "go" philosophy.

Trying to "second guess" the PIC and his decision is a waste of time. I say that with 40 years of military and commercial flying. First of all, we don't have all the facts, such as TOGW, runway condition, gross weight and on and on. To the best of my knowledge the accident investigation board didn't have any issues with his decision, so why are we not only second-guessing the PIC but the accident board?

Finally, perhaps all the "judges" should list their qualifications before passing judgement on the Captain.

if I understood the report (which is in Italian) correctly, they were about 120 kg below MTOW, something like 99.92% of it. A lot of energy to dissipate...
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:23 pm

jporterfi wrote:
I'm a private pilot with ASEL privileges, so I've never had to deal with V1 in regards to single engine failures on multi-engine aircraft.

In the YouTube video, the captain states "continue" (presumably recognizing and identifying the situation at that point), and then states "V1" approximately one second later. IIRC, all single-engine failure checklists during takeoff state that the pilots should discontinue takeoff if a failure or other issue occurs before V1. I don't understand why the captain instructed the first officer to continue takeoff before V1 had been reached, unless he identified other factors that would have prevented the aircraft from safely stopping on the remaining runway.


I think another consideration might have been that the 767 has two engines. Even with one not operating, the other may still be able to get you to that speed and more. I think that from his perspective - he may have calculated that he had the inertia to climb out, and sort it out in the air. This is what we have successively trained our pilots to do, it's a choice - and a good one. At least there, he had more eyes, ears and time to figure it out. Some may fault him for 'hasty decision' but it was one that ultimately bought him time and space in the safer environment that he could imagine.
 
Milesdependent
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:20 pm

I think people need to chill a little. Many people who are not pilots have a basic view that regardless of situation, any problems under V1, then you must stop. There is ample runway available to stop. A decision to do something else will always be wrong. Life in reality is more complex than that.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:53 am

Milesdependent wrote:
Many people who are not pilots have a basic view that regardless of situation, any problems under V1, then you must stop. There is ample runway available to stop. A decision to do something else will always be wrong.


Boeing is actually quite specific about what failures to stop for. Above 80kts there’s only a handful of conditions they recommended a reject for, all at the discretion of the PIC. Things like Cautions, vibrations, burst tyres, minor system failures they recommend to continue, get airborne, sort out the issue at a safe height. It’s pretty basic stuff anyone who has actually trained as an airline pilot.

For those who’s have flown 2000 747 hours on MS Flight Sim and thinking that makes them an expert......
 
sadde
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:24 am

As most above have attested to, if you’re questioning the PIC on this one, you’ve never flown a V1 cut. Training on all three of my types, and in particular in my ATP/CTP course focused on the fact that an abort near V1 is *significantly* more likely to result in an over run than just continuing the takeoff is likely to have you hit an obstacle, run out of runway, etc. 4-5 knots is less than 5% of rotation speed in any jet and most turboprops.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:15 am

Two things in Aviation that don’t matter......The runway behind you and the airspeed you had. At the end of the day you make the best decision at that split second moment to keep your passengers safe. It’s rarely black and white. The good news is you will have time to think before the NTSB board starts asking questions.

Whether they should have stopped or continued.....their wrong........

They continue people say how dare you don’t reject below V1. They reject 4 kts prior to V1 and don’t do it EXACTLY correct and end up in the mud and people say they should have went.
 
asdf
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:32 am

This was 2004
It was Italy
And it was obvisualy - if u follow the CVR - a pretty smart Captain

there could have been a lot of "below the line" facts we dont know now why he didnt hesitate a seconde before he desided to continue

maybe he knew that the weight of the plane was "optimised" (FAA found out 120kg below max takeoff weight ...)
maybe he knew that this runway was in extreme slippery conditions
maybe he knew that there was no way out at the end of the runway because of a construction site or such
maybe he knew that this special airframe provides a lousy breaking action

i guess reasons to continue or to abort are not limited on facts you find in the SOP
 
Fatbus
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:16 am

I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE
 
kalvado
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:54 am

Fatbus wrote:
I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE

Fun fact: they had 900 kg of fuel on the loose. Hot brakes, engine fire and fuel spill, what can go wrong?
My bet that even if they stopped nicely, AA ORD fire would be their best case scenario, with fireball being a distinct chance....
CA decision resulted in 0 deaths and plane returned to service.
 
LONGisland89
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:49 pm

Fatbus wrote:
I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE


The narcissism makes you sound like an adult baby. You should realize just because you're a TRE doesn't mean you're a good one.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:25 pm

VSMUT wrote:
IMO, the captain took the wrong decision. I think he was too go minded and lacked situational awareness.


Fatbus wrote:
Wrong decision. Ample time to react and reject .


Fatbus wrote:
I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE


Experienced and qualified investigators had access to all information including the CVR, FDR, any video, and interviews with the crew, and rendered a verdict.
Anonymous and unqualified internet posters watched a youtube video and rendered a verdict.
Which verdict has credibility?

Image
 
VSMUT
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:31 pm

IPFreely wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
IMO, the captain took the wrong decision. I think he was too go minded and lacked situational awareness.


Fatbus wrote:
Wrong decision. Ample time to react and reject .


Fatbus wrote:
I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE


Experienced and qualified investigators had access to all information including the CVR, FDR, any video, and interviews with the crew, and rendered a verdict.
Anonymous and unqualified internet posters watched a youtube video and rendered a verdict.
Which verdict has credibility?

Image


How many aborted takeoffs just below V1 have you done? I'm up to 2 already.
 
sadde
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:19 pm

Fatbus wrote:
I would still fail him ! Easa 330/340/320 TRE


"Those who can't do, teach." -Dewey Finn
 
bigb
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:27 pm

Milesdependent wrote:
I think people need to chill a little. Many people who are not pilots have a basic view that regardless of situation, any problems under V1, then you must stop. There is ample runway available to stop. A decision to do something else will always be wrong. Life in reality is more complex than that.


Not true
 
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Aesma
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Re: Blue Panorama flight 1504, right or wrong decision?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm

No opinion per se, but I have a question. A bit below V1, with only one engine producing thrust, would acceleration be hugely affected, rendering it difficult to attain VR, or does the aircraft already have enough momentum to make it "easily" ? Does the pilot (or FADEC) push the remaining engine to max take-off power ?

Since then we have seen an engine exploding sending parts everywhere, some ending up lodged in the other engine, so that might also be a consideration...
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