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Ishrion
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Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:30 pm

Norwegian Air has cancelled its orders for 92 737 MAX 8s and five Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners. I believe this represents a cancellation of all remaining Boeing orders?

Norwegian also seeks compensation for the MAX groundings.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/06 ... oeing.html

Perfect timing. First MAX certification flight today and they cancelled all orders.

I believe someone just made a topic but it was deleted since it was just a link?
Last edited by Ishrion on Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:32 pm

Great time to bail, especially on the MAX. They probably can dump those with no penalty. Not getting many MAXes might help with Norwegian's survival. How many cancelled MAXes is that now cumulatively? Must be at least 300.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:36 pm

Not at all surprising. Just my opinion, but DY isn't going to survive as a stand alone carrier.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:36 pm

It's only surprising that it's taken this long for Norwegian to cancel, given their situation.
It's doubly surprising that "only" 300ish MAX's have been cancelled, overall.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:39 pm

So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?
Good moaning!
 
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qf789
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:54 pm

Just a reminder to keep your posts on topic and to leave the flamebait out of the discussion
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Bricktop
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:00 pm

This is an incredible shock.

Said no a.netter ever.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:15 pm

Just clarifying... these were Norwegian’s remaining Boeing orders? So now they only have 20 A321LRs on order?

Also this is the largest single cancellation for the MAX? I believe this beats Avolon’s cancellation of 75 MAXs?
 
chiad
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:22 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Just clarifying... these were Norwegian’s remaining Boeing orders? So now they only have 20 A321LRs on order?

Also this is the largest single cancellation for the MAX? I believe this beats Avolon’s cancellation of 75 MAXs?


Isn't it 30 A321LRs?

I also wonder what will happen to the 18 MAX that's already been delivered.
 
jfk777
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:26 pm

Norwegian's orders are "shaky" at best, this is a bankrupt airline with huge debt levels expanding on the Atlantic from multiple European cities to the USA. Did they think BA, AA, Virgin, and United wouldn't notice their red Dreamliners ? They are ambitious, will we see them at JFK or LAX again?
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:32 pm

Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:35 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Agreed unfortunately I suspect that their key problem was buying a fleet of all new expensive aircraft I think the way a transatlantic LCC succeeds is that it buys cheap used aircraft and flies them very lightly all winter and focuses purely on the profitable summer ops.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:38 pm

Does anyone know what even remains of Norwegian at this point? They were essentially sold off to their leasing companies, but which parts of the business was that? Argentina is gone, most of long haul staff was laid off. What's left? The organization was so fragmented it's difficult to keep track of what is what.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:39 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Agreed unfortunately I suspect that their key problem was buying a fleet of all new expensive aircraft I think the way a transatlantic LCC succeeds is that it buys cheap used aircraft and flies them very lightly all winter and focuses purely on the profitable summer ops.


They just never let markets mature and build up enough. They had a good product and were well liked by their travelers. I flew them a few times doing JFK-LGW and they were nice for the quick hop across the Atlantic. What they didn't do was try to fortify any positions like you see with other LCCs in Europe or in the US. Could this be done on long haul travel? We might never know, but Norwegian needs a completely new leadership structure brought in. MAX flying or 787 flying would be great but if its done smart, not opening bases across Europe while barely holding enough market share to be noteworthy but instead a bug to squash as a symbol to others by the US3 or the European big 3 groups.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:42 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Just clarifying... these were Norwegian’s remaining Boeing orders? So now they only have 20 A321LRs on order?


Yes, it is a cancellation of all their outstanding Boeing orders.

Airbus lists Norwegian as having 58 x A320neo and 30 x A321neo on order.
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skipness1E
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 pm

B787-9 G-CLJN first flew in Jan. Guess that’s ntu as well?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 pm

Thanks for answering my questions, people above.

And wow - exactly three years ago on June 29, 2017, Norwegian Air took delivery of its first 737 MAX. Three years later, they cancel the remaining orders:

https://mobile.twitter.com/e_russell/st ... 8747054081
 
dstblj52
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:57 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Agreed unfortunately I suspect that their key problem was buying a fleet of all new expensive aircraft I think the way a transatlantic LCC succeeds is that it buys cheap used aircraft and flies them very lightly all winter and focuses purely on the profitable summer ops.


They just never let markets mature and build up enough. They had a good product and were well liked by their travelers. I flew them a few times doing JFK-LGW and they were nice for the quick hop across the Atlantic. What they didn't do was try to fortify any positions like you see with other LCCs in Europe or in the US. Could this be done on long haul travel? We might never know, but Norwegian needs a completely new leadership structure brought in. MAX flying or 787 flying would be great but if its done smart, not opening bases across Europe while barely holding enough market share to be noteworthy but instead a bug to squash as a symbol to others by the US3 or the European big 3 groups.

The problem with transatlantic LCC's is that outside of the summer all the legacy carriers essentially dump economy seats into each others hubs at laughably low prices to fill seats which is made viable by the high and stable business class fares. There is money to be made undercutting in the summer but not the winter, so an allegiant model is probably necessary to make this worl
 
freakyrat
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:04 pm

Boeing will have no problem building some of these for Southwest.
 
F27500
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:19 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?


Doesn;t matter... i hope Airbus aint takin a check from them! Bouncy bounce bounce bounce!
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:30 pm

This cancellation comes right after the first shareholders' meeting with the new ownership.

Norwegian is now an entirely different thing since its major debtors - the leasing companies - converted debt to new shares and became de facto owners of the company. Maybe they should change name - what about "Chinese" instead of "Norwegian"? Largest shareholder is leasing company BOC Aviation, which is ultimately owned by the Chinese state. (BOC is abreviation of Bank Of China).

More surpricing is that they have ended this first shareholders' meeting and still there is no cancellation of the 80 odd Airbus orders.

The new owners - the leasing companies - will keep Norwegian supplied with planes from own inventory. That means, as long as they have planes parked in the deserts, there will be no new planes for Norwegian.
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jayunited
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:47 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
The problem with transatlantic LCC's is that outside of the summer all the legacy carriers essentially dump economy seats into each others hubs at laughably low prices to fill seats which is made viable by the high and stable business class fares. There is money to be made undercutting in the summer but not the winter, so an allegiant model is probably necessary to make this worl



Your comment took me back to 2017 when Norwegian announced LGW-SIN. There were compelling arguments on both sides for and against the idea of a LCC on a long haul route. Norwegian wasn't afraid to take on the establishment and they did have a great onboard product but like you said you can make money undercutting during the busy travel season. However like you pointed out once the season ends how do you cover your cost at subbasement fares with corporate clients buying business class fares? Norwegian seemed to always have high load factors, at one point they they surpassed BA by carrying the most passengers between New York and London?

Customers on both sides of the Atlantic loved their cheap fares and great service they made medium and long haul international travel accessible to price sensitive customers. But they ran out of time and out of money it will be interesting to see what they look like on the other side of this crisis should they survive to see the other side.

I'm sure Boeing will find someone to take the 5 undelivered 787s, the MAXs well who knows there aren't many airlines jumping to take MAXs now days. I'm wondering how many of their already delivered 788s, and 789s will they keep?
 
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Polot
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:50 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
This cancellation comes right after the first shareholders' meeting with the new ownership.

Norwegian is now an entirely different thing since its major debtors - the leasing companies - converted debt to new shares and became de facto owners of the company. Maybe they should change name - what about "Chinese" instead of "Norwegian"? Largest shareholder is leasing company BOC Aviation, which is ultimately owned by the Chinese state. (BOC is abreviation of Bank Of China).

More surpricing is that they have ended this first shareholders' meeting and still there is no cancellation of the 80 odd Airbus orders.

The new owners - the leasing companies - will keep Norwegian supplied with planes from own inventory. That means, as long as they have planes parked in the deserts, there will be no new planes for Norwegian.

The Max situation made it easy to get out of the Boeing order with no cost to DY (in fact there is an opportunity to get money from Boeing). Not so with the Airbus orders.

Like you I have my doubts that any of the Airbuses will ever be delivered to DY. My guess is if the Airbus order remains they will conveniently get transferred to their leasing company owners and leased out to others (which granted, is what DY always intended to do with the A320neos specifically).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:58 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
It's doubly surprising that "only" 300ish MAX's have been cancelled, overall.


It's much more than "300ish". At the end of 2018, Boeing had total MAX sales of 5,005. At the end of May this year, the total was 4,619.

The loss of Norwegian's 92 will take MAX to over 400 cancellations for the year so far (it was 313 to end May). If Boeing books another 22 cancellations in June, that will take total MAX cancellations to 500.

On top of that, Boeing also identifies an additional 320 737s (all MAX since, IIRC, no civil NG orders are left) as "dodgy" under ASC 606 accounting rules.
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prebennorholm
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:18 am

Polot wrote:
The Max situation made it easy to get out of the Boeing order with no cost to DY (in fact there is an opportunity to get money from Boeing). Not so with the Airbus orders.

Like you I have my doubts that any of the Airbuses will ever be delivered to DY. My guess is if the Airbus order remains they will conveniently get transferred to their leasing company owners and leased out to others (which granted, is what DY always intended to do with the A320neos specifically).

Yeah, I think you are right. Any payments on the Airbus orders are not refundable, since Airbus never violated the contract. So likely the leasing companies (Norwegian owners) will defer those orders to be delivered to real leasing customers way out in a distant future.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:42 am

How many MAX or 787 are scurrently itting in their colours waiting for delivery?

I see previous comments said 5x 787 will be NTU, and ideas current MAX numbers already built?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:50 am

Bricktop wrote:
This is an incredible shock.

Said no a.netter ever.


Boeing can draw out compensation negotiations and pay to creditors after Norwegian has been liquidated. At least that way creditors will get something.
 
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:57 am

Ishrion wrote:
Norwegian also seeks compensation for the MAX groundings.


Due to the COVID-19 disaster Boeing will probably pay a tiny fraction of what they would've had to pay in compensation to the affected airlines also the massive drop in air travel will buy Boeing an invaluable time to get the MAX certified, so it's not all bad news.
 
T4thH
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:02 am

Polot wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
This cancellation comes right after the first shareholders' meeting with the new ownership.

Norwegian is now an entirely different thing since its major debtors - the leasing companies - converted debt to new shares and became de facto owners of the company. Maybe they should change name - what about "Chinese" instead of "Norwegian"? Largest shareholder is leasing company BOC Aviation, which is ultimately owned by the Chinese state. (BOC is abreviation of Bank Of China).

More surpricing is that they have ended this first shareholders' meeting and still there is no cancellation of the 80 odd Airbus orders.

The new owners - the leasing companies - will keep Norwegian supplied with planes from own inventory. That means, as long as they have planes parked in the deserts, there will be no new planes for Norwegian.

The Max situation made it easy to get out of the Boeing order with no cost to DY (in fact there is an opportunity to get money from Boeing). Not so with the Airbus orders.

Like you I have my doubts that any of the Airbuses will ever be delivered to DY. My guess is if the Airbus order remains they will conveniently get transferred to their leasing company owners and leased out to others (which granted, is what DY always intended to do with the A320neos specifically).


Yes, the MAX grounding for more than a year make it really easy to get out of contracts.

And to be fair, is there any other airline, who have now suffered more of last Boeing products?
First all the issues of Norwegian and the B787 with their RR engines. Of course, it is in first case an RR issue, still regular many of the Norwegian B787 were parked, as RR engines had to be replaced or even popped. And yes, the RR engines was just the wrong choice by Norwegian, but still this is a Boeing.

And than the MAX...

Norwegian + subsidiaries have/had 145 jets and of these are 55 either B787 or MAX. And the complete long haul fleet are B787 and even at the end prior COVID, few were still parked and waiting for engine upgrades?

Yes, it seems, a big company, called Boeing, has failed to fulfill the contracts to deliver an appropriate product. It shall b e easy to get out of the contracts.

I also have doubts, Norwegian will take up any of the A321LR, but.....the long range narrowbodies will pretty well fit to the existing B787 wb fleet, post COVID times, the global will be still low, with the A321 LR, an airline will be able to grab now some routes and slots, where now and in next years the demand for a wb plane will just not exist. And when the global demands grows again...

But still, in my opinion it is unlikely, Norwegian will take up the A321 LR...but who knows?
 
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:18 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Norwegian also seeks compensation for the MAX groundings.


Due to the COVID-19 disaster Boeing will probably pay a tiny fraction of what they would've had to pay in compensation to the affected airlines also the massive drop in air travel will buy Boeing an invaluable time to get the MAX certified, so it's not all bad news.


At this rate the company would have lost most of the advantages that it sought when racing to re-engineer one of their old planes into the MAX. They could have just embarked on a new model.
 
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:29 am

Norwegian CEO Jacob Schram told the news site E24 in January that the company considered dropping Boeing in favor of Airbus if they did not find a solution to all the problems.
 
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:23 am

    Bricktop wrote:
    This is an incredible shock.

    Said no a.netter ever.

    Yea, that is my thought too. Norwegian will have to wiggle out of the Airbus orders too, but others already noted the MAX grounding made getting out of that easy.

    I'm less bearish on Norwegian surviving than many, but the fast growth is over for the forcastable future (3 to 5 years), so time to retrench.

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    Strato2
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    Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

    Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:39 am

    This might end up Airbus getting Boeings compensation money for a breach of contract.
     
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    Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

    Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 am

    lightsaber wrote:
      Bricktop wrote:
      This is an incredible shock.

      Said no a.netter ever.

      Yea, that is my thought too. Norwegian will have to wiggle out of the Airbus orders too, but others already noted the MAX grounding made getting out of that easy.

      I'm less bearish on Norwegian surviving than many, but the fast growth is over for the forcastable future (3 to 5 years), so time to retrench.

      Lightsaber

      I am very bearish on Norwegian surviving but I am not at all bearish on the idea of long haul LCC I think the problem is they assumed like short-haul that the LCC model work with the most efficient aircraft but long haul leisure is very seasonal and there are just not enough places to fill planes in the winter season with the way the legacies dump economy seats during the off-peak seasons. I think if they went the allegiant model and bought cheap used aircraft in today's market probably 330ceo/777-200 and flew to smaller transatlantic destinations less then daily the condor model it's a very viable market. There is near bottomless demand to get to places like London and if you can go to places that don't have a nonstop even if it's 2-3 days a week at a low fare you will have no trouble filling it up, I just struggle to find the winter placement for those aircraft outside of Christmas, the Haji and what not.
       
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:08 am

      L0VE2FLY wrote:
      Ishrion wrote:
      Norwegian also seeks compensation for the MAX groundings.


      Due to the COVID-19 disaster Boeing will probably pay a tiny fraction of what they would've had to pay in compensation to the affected airlines also the massive drop in air travel will buy Boeing an invaluable time to get the MAX certified, so it's not all bad news.

      Boeing will have to pay a lot for the pre-covid losses but your right its really hard to argue that losses amount to more than the difference in fuel prices when you have half your NG fleet parked.
       
      dstblj52
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:23 am

      jayunited wrote:
      dstblj52 wrote:
      The problem with transatlantic LCC's is that outside of the summer all the legacy carriers essentially dump economy seats into each others hubs at laughably low prices to fill seats which is made viable by the high and stable business class fares. There is money to be made undercutting in the summer but not the winter, so an allegiant model is probably necessary to make this worl



      Your comment took me back to 2017 when Norwegian announced LGW-SIN. There were compelling arguments on both sides for and against the idea of a LCC on a long haul route. Norwegian wasn't afraid to take on the establishment and they did have a great onboard product but like you said you can make money undercutting during the busy travel season. However like you pointed out once the season ends how do you cover your cost at subbasement fares with corporate clients buying business class fares? Norwegian seemed to always have high load factors, at one point they they surpassed BA by carrying the most passengers between New York and London?

      Customers on both sides of the Atlantic loved their cheap fares and great service they made medium and long haul international travel accessible to price sensitive customers. But they ran out of time and out of money it will be interesting to see what they look like on the other side of this crisis should they survive to see the other side.

      I'm sure Boeing will find someone to take the 5 undelivered 787s, the MAXs well who knows there aren't many airlines jumping to take MAXs now days. I'm wondering how many of their already delivered 788s, and 789s will they keep?

      I would push back on the idea that Norwegian made long haul international travel available to the price-sensitive it was always available at off-peak times I suspect now that norwegian is owned by lessors they will end up selling and leasing back their aircraft to said, lessors at some time in the future than being run for cash until the airline eventually dies. Honestly, another huge part of Norwegians problem is their aircraft are straight-up, not dense enough their economy seat density per square meter devoted to economy is no higher then the legacy carriers and it needs to be if your selling on the price you can basically ignore the onboard experience and if your cheap enough people won't care Norwegian has an inch more per seat in economy then BA's Gatwick fleet does its direct competitor. I would reduce it down to 30 inch pitch remove the TV's, remove the power. Because people are flying Norwegian because its cheap comfort is basically irrelevant, and Norwegians costs are no lower than BA at Gatwick with similar staff contracts and BA has the advantage of paid for aircraft with lower winter utilization to minimize loses.
       
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:29 am

      scbriml wrote:
      Ishrion wrote:
      Just clarifying... these were Norwegian’s remaining Boeing orders? So now they only have 20 A321LRs on order?


      Yes, it is a cancellation of all their outstanding Boeing orders.

      Airbus lists Norwegian as having 58 x A320neo and 30 x A321neo on order.


      The 30 A321LR are for the Mainline Norwegian.

      Also, If I'm not mistake, the 5 A320neo were being sold to other airlines.

      What I wonder is, Arctic Aviation Assets is wholly-owned leasing subsidiary of Norwegian Air Shuttle. They have 70 A320neo on orders and they already received some in 2016. The first 12 aircraft were leased to HK Express.

      So how are these orders work. It seems like it's all over the place.
       
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:50 am

      ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
      How many MAX or 787 are scurrently itting in their colours waiting for delivery?

      I see previous comments said 5x 787 will be NTU, and ideas current MAX numbers already built?


      There are 14 737MAX built awaiting delivery and 4 787's are also built. 3 of those 787;s are ready for delivery while the fourth is still under going flight testing. All 4 frames were built at PAE and over the past month the 3 that are ready for delivery were positioned from PAE to CHS for storage.
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      Blerg
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:10 am

      Anyone know if on top of the compensation they will also get their deposit back? I remember that Kuwaiti leasing company almost sued Boeing because they refused to pay them back the deposit.
       
      slcdeltarumd11
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 am

      The reality is that all airlines are suffering at the moment. This situation could take down any airline if they are not smart here and make wise choices.
       
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      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:23 am

      jayunited wrote:
      dstblj52 wrote:
      The problem with transatlantic LCC's is that outside of the summer all the legacy carriers essentially dump economy seats into each others hubs at laughably low prices to fill seats which is made viable by the high and stable business class fares. There is money to be made undercutting in the summer but not the winter, so an allegiant model is probably necessary to make this worl



      Your comment took me back to 2017 when Norwegian announced LGW-SIN. There were compelling arguments on both sides for and against the idea of a LCC on a long haul route. Norwegian wasn't afraid to take on the establishment and they did have a great onboard product but like you said you can make money undercutting during the busy travel season. However like you pointed out once the season ends how do you cover your cost at subbasement fares with corporate clients buying business class fares? Norwegian seemed to always have high load factors, at one point they they surpassed BA by carrying the most passengers between New York and London?


      - They didn’t carry more passengers from New York to London than BA, they flew more passengers from New York to Europe, bit of a difference.
      111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
       
      User avatar
      hilram
      Posts: 753
      Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:18 am

      F27500 wrote:
      PepeTheFrog wrote:
      So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?


      Doesn;t matter... i hope Airbus aint takin a check from them! Bouncy bounce bounce bounce!


      Give it time. Right now they had an excuse for both the MAX and the 787-9:

      * MAX Delays / Certification / Grounding
      * 789 RR Engine problems, causing Manintenance Grounding.
      Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
       
      Jomar777
      Posts: 554
      Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:32 am

      I do not find it surprising. The MAX's overall woes make it easier for Norwegian to cancel them as well as even try to seek compensation which would be a welcome cash injection on their books.

      The Airbus order is a different matter since Airbus has a problem free product and an order which is running its course as expected. Besides, as we know, Airbus has already publicly declared that it will not play ball with the airlines ref delays/cancellations (see separate treads in the matter) meaning that a review of Norwegian's order towards cancelling, delaying to oblivion, etc is much harder.

      But I would not be surprised if their Airbus order is also canned somehow soon.

      They may have new management but are still in dire financial straits...
       
      LJ
      Posts: 5289
      Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:45 am

      scbriml wrote:
      FlyHappy wrote:
      It's doubly surprising that "only" 300ish MAX's have been cancelled, overall.


      It's much more than "300ish". At the end of 2018, Boeing had total MAX sales of 5,005. At the end of May this year, the total was 4,619.

      The loss of Norwegian's 92 will take MAX to over 400 cancellations for the year so far (it was 313 to end May). If Boeing books another 22 cancellations in June, that will take total MAX cancellations to 500.

      On top of that, Boeing also identifies an additional 320 737s (all MAX since, IIRC, no civil NG orders are left) as "dodgy" under ASC 606 accounting rules.


      It will be interesting to see if any of those ASC 606 cancellations were on behalf of Norwegian. They added 80 last month, of which 40 are probably from ALAFCO, but anyone can guess for the other 40.
       
      a350lover
      Posts: 863
      Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:02 am

      Could Norwegian lessors make some better money using part of the current DY fleet with any better business, or do you see Norwegian getting back to its pre-covid size (in short haul) no matter in how much time?
       
      VSMUT
      Posts: 4228
      Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:14 am

      Insertnamehere wrote:
      Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW.


      Eh, that's probably going a bit far. Long haul was never their bread and butter. Norwegian was first and foremost a European LCC, that's where their bread and butter routes lay.


      dstblj52 wrote:
      I would reduce it down to 30 inch pitch remove the TV's, remove the power.


      AFAIK, the PTVs are central to the buy-on-board model. Passengers select and pay for drinks, snacks and food via the PTV system and the cabin crew deliver it. Massively successful if a number of online trip-reports are to be believed. Having cabin crew push trolleys up and down the aisle peddling wares doesn't work as well on a widebody as it does on a narrowbody.
      If you ask me, they should can the 787s and all the long haul ambitions. At the very most, they could perhaps keep a fleet of 5-10 787-8s running high-season scheduled routes to popular holiday destinations, ACMI and charter work.
       
      User avatar
      PepeTheFrog
      Posts: 389
      Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:27 am

      scbriml wrote:
      Ishrion wrote:
      Just clarifying... these were Norwegian’s remaining Boeing orders? So now they only have 20 A321LRs on order?


      Yes, it is a cancellation of all their outstanding Boeing orders.

      Airbus lists Norwegian as having 58 x A320neo and 30 x A321neo on order.


      I think it's fair to assume the Airbus order will be next.
      Good moaning!
       
      Galwayman
      Posts: 891
      Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:30 am

      There are rumours that they will consolidate their long haul flights at LGW , the A321LR is perfect there, the 737 max really brings nothing to the table - I'm surprised they weren't cancelled already
       
      dstblj52
      Posts: 408
      Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:31 am

      Jomar777 wrote:
      I do not find it surprising. The MAX's overall woes make it easier for Norwegian to cancel them as well as even try to seek compensation which would be a welcome cash injection on their books.

      The Airbus order is a different matter since Airbus has a problem free product and an order which is running its course as expected. Besides, as we know, Airbus has already publicly declared that it will not play ball with the airlines ref delays/cancellations (see separate treads in the matter) meaning that a review of Norwegian's order towards cancelling, delaying to oblivion, etc is much harder.

      But I would not be surprised if their Airbus order is also canned somehow soon.

      They may have new management but are still in dire financial straits...

      Moreover with airlines that are likely to be stable in the long haul and have a large airbus fleet or fleet orders have a lot more leverage than someone like Norwegian who has a fairly small airbus order its is/was for their leasing arm a business likely to get spun off to the lessors who own the company (it's a business the new owners understand and specialize in and its the only part of Norwegian that has any real value not already mortgaged to the hilt). So if I am airbus and want to make a show of forcing people to take aircraft and abide by the contract I suspect Norwegian might be a good candidate to make the message clear.
       
      dstblj52
      Posts: 408
      Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

      Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

      Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:34 am

      VSMUT wrote:
      Insertnamehere wrote:
      Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW.


      Eh, that's probably going a bit far. Long haul was never their bread and butter. Norwegian was first and foremost a European LCC, that's where their bread and butter routes lay.


      dstblj52 wrote:
      I would reduce it down to 30 inch pitch remove the TV's, remove the power.


      AFAIK, the PTVs are central to the buy-on-board model. Passengers select and pay for drinks, snacks and food via the PTV system and the cabin crew deliver it. Massively successful if a number of online trip-reports are to be believed. Having cabin crew push trolleys up and down the aisle peddling wares doesn't work as well on a widebody as it does on a narrowbody.
      If you ask me, they should can the 787s and all the long haul ambitions. At the very most, they could perhaps keep a fleet of 5-10 787-8s running high-season scheduled routes to popular holiday destinations, ACMI and charter work.

      you're never going to make money doing acmi and charter work with a fleet of very new 787's their very efficient when their flying but they cost a lot to buy so you have to keep them flying all the time to make money and charter/acmi tends to be very low utilization, Norwegian problem is not the high season its where do you put the planes during the low season I think they would have been much better of buying a fleet of used cheaper either a330-200/ or 777-200er and just accepting your not going to fly that much in the low season.

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