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scbriml
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 am

VSMUT wrote:
AFAIK, the PTVs are central to the buy-on-board model. Passengers select and pay for drinks, snacks and food via the PTV system and the cabin crew deliver it. Massively successful if a number of online trip-reports are to be believed.


This is correct. It's a really good system and works very well. While I've only flown a few long-haul trips with Norwegian, I have to say they were very good. I hope they can survive.
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bmibaby737
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:48 am

skipness1E wrote:
B787-9 G-CLJN first flew in Jan. Guess that’s ntu as well?


Some of these 787-9s are BOC Aviation orders, which were transferred from Norwegian in 2018 IIRC, so in theory they were due to receive more than 5 787s that were on the order books.

Does anyone know if those have been NTU as well, like Skipness1E has asked? BOC Aviation is now Norwegians' largest shareholder so hard to know if they'd want them placed with Norwegian or if they'd want them looking for a new lessee.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:56 am

a350lover wrote:
Could Norwegian lessors make some better money using part of the current DY fleet with any better business, or do you see Norwegian getting back to its pre-covid size (in short haul) no matter in how much time?


I don't know. I see several posters argue DY should cancel their Airbus orders too, and also drop their 787 fleet. But is their long haul business with 787s really bad? Not so sure it cannot work.
As for dropping the Airbus orders, IIRC they tried that before as their speculative lease business didn't work as planned, competing with existing leasing companies who have the experience and the customer base. I believe Airbus played hardball and DY tried to make lemonade out of lemons by converting part of the order to A321LR's for their own use.
And I think this may not be such a bad idea at all. Perhaps they should convert them to the more capable XLR's, possibly reducing the order somewhat, the XLR won't be available the next few years, buying time for DY. Eventually they could even use the A320neo as replacement for the 737NG when times are getting better. BOC can probably place DY's MAX's at other airlines eventually.

All speculation from an armchair CEO of course, sorry, but I like to do so :blush:
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Polot
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:45 am

frigatebird wrote:
Eventually they could even use the A320neo as replacement for the 737NG when times are getting better. BOC can probably place DY's MAX's at other airlines eventually.

That doesn’t make much sense. DY will probably be the home for many of BOC’s or Aercap’s (another owner) 737MAXs assuming the company pulls through and survives.

Cancelling the Max orders does not necessarily mean DY intends to cease being a Max operator.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:16 am

frigatebird wrote:
I don't know. I see several posters argue DY should cancel their Airbus orders too, and also drop their 787 fleet. But is their long haul business with 787s really bad? Not so sure it cannot work.


Norwegian never made a profit on the long haul flights, so the 787 business is really bad.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:34 am

Polot wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Eventually they could even use the A320neo as replacement for the 737NG when times are getting better. BOC can probably place DY's MAX's at other airlines eventually.

That doesn’t make much sense. DY will probably be the home for many of BOC’s or Aercap’s (another owner) 737MAXs assuming the company pulls through and survives.

Cancelling the Max orders does not necessarily mean DY intends to cease being a Max operator.


Well, if DY is going to use A321LR's they might as well standardize their NB fleet on the A32x neo. If they don't, I agree your suggestion that BOC can place MAX at DY from their own orderbook indeed makes best sense, hadn't considered it from that angle.

VSMUT wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
I don't know. I see several posters argue DY should cancel their Airbus orders too, and also drop their 787 fleet. But is their long haul business with 787s really bad? Not so sure it cannot work.


Norwegian never made a profit on the long haul flights, so the 787 business is really bad.

Oh dear :sigh:
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Polot
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 am

frigatebird wrote:
Polot wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Eventually they could even use the A320neo as replacement for the 737NG when times are getting better. BOC can probably place DY's MAX's at other airlines eventually.

That doesn’t make much sense. DY will probably be the home for many of BOC’s or Aercap’s (another owner) 737MAXs assuming the company pulls through and survives.

Cancelling the Max orders does not necessarily mean DY intends to cease being a Max operator.


Well, if DY is going to use A321LR's they might as well standardize their NB fleet on the A32x neo. If they don't, I agree your suggestion that BOC can place MAX at DY from their own orderbook indeed makes best sense, hadn't considered it from that angle.

I just have serious doubts about DY operating the A321LR anytime soon. The airline is majorly shrinking and I think expansion of a dedicated long haul fleet will be put on hold, with any long haul done by a much smaller 787 fleet and maybe a few Maxes. DY needs to rebuild its base.

The A321 being a relatively hot commodity in my mind makes it more likely they will be leased out for income, granted who knows how things will shake out post pandemic.
 
PavlovsDog
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Boeing can draw out compensation negotiations and pay to creditors after Norwegian has been liquidated. At least that way creditors will get something.
This has apparently been Boeing's tactic thus far. Norwegian has been very frustrated by the response from Chicago. Now that the leasing companies own Norwegian and sit on the board, this lawsuit and cancellation should get the suits in Chicago off their asses pretty quick. I imagine aercap and the other shareholders would be happy to never see these aircraft built to keep even more excess aircraft capacity from hitting the market.
 
Sjtstudios
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
This is an incredible shock.

Said no a.netter ever.


Boeing can draw out compensation negotiations and pay to creditors after Norwegian has been liquidated. At least that way creditors will get something.


Fully agree with this. The only reason there is a law suit is because Boeing won’t play ball with Norwegian if they want every last crumb of the cake.

Max compensation probably only accounts for partial cancellation as a credit towards downpayments. That’s why there have only been partial cancellation MW. It’s economic balance.

Norwegian wants full cancellation of the Max’s, 787 cancellations, and all down payments returned. They want to write off all liabilities to liquidity. Doesn’t matter that they took the risk in ordering the planes or ordered RR after negotiations with them.

Boeing is probably planning for the NTUs already and will just pay out for Max grounding. They see no point caving to every demand when they know they get to keep down payments in liquidation of Norwegian.

Surprised this public display has occurred, now that BOC will basically own Norwegian and they are a big Boeing customer. Perhaps there could be some weight to this.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:10 pm

Norwegian was suffering from overcapacity and needed to refocus before COIVD. They are doing the smart thing ditching commitments to new aircraft. There will be plenty of relatively lightly used aircraft available in the near future. There is a large glut of 737MAX the market needs to absorb, a large number of new 737 and A320s with uncertain futures too.

scbriml wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
AFAIK, the PTVs are central to the buy-on-board model. Passengers select and pay for drinks, snacks and food via the PTV system and the cabin crew deliver it. Massively successful if a number of online trip-reports are to be believed.


This is correct. It's a really good system and works very well. While I've only flown a few long-haul trips with Norwegian, I have to say they were very good. I hope they can survive.

And ideal for the post-COVID world. Select what you like and the crew will deliver it to your seat in a bag, payment by card using the PTV. It might also be possible to do a virtual "loo queue" too.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:11 pm

Any airline that has MAX's on order has an advantage, because they can use the delays and problems as an excuse to cancel. I always liked Norweigan and I hope they'll survive.
 
dreamliner8910
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
I don't know. I see several posters argue DY should cancel their Airbus orders too, and also drop their 787 fleet. But is their long haul business with 787s really bad? Not so sure it cannot work.


Norwegian never made a profit on the long haul flights, so the 787 business is really bad.


The key question is did they make a loss on every flight every day on the 787? I'd imagine some routes/flights/days were profitable, just the complete effort wasn't. Therefore this would be a great time to scale back what doesn't and stick with what does.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:59 pm

dreamliner8910 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
I don't know. I see several posters argue DY should cancel their Airbus orders too, and also drop their 787 fleet. But is their long haul business with 787s really bad? Not so sure it cannot work.


Norwegian never made a profit on the long haul flights, so the 787 business is really bad.


The key question is did they make a loss on every flight every day on the 787? I'd imagine some routes/flights/days were profitable, just the complete effort wasn't. Therefore this would be a great time to scale back what doesn't and stick with what does.


They probably made a profit during the European holidays (summer, winter, spring etc), but that's nowhere near enough to cover the remaining 9-10 months of the year. As someone mentioned earlier, trans-atlantic yields in economy are really low outside the high season, and they don't have a premium product that can attract the higher yielding business traffic.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:02 pm

BOC has also cancelled 30 MAX orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW.


Eh, that's probably going a bit far. Long haul was never their bread and butter. Norwegian was first and foremost a European LCC, that's where their bread and butter routes lay.


Of course it wasn't some of their routes particularly were terrible (especially routes like LGW-SIN) but some routes between the East Coast of the US and London were pretty successful and they had a pretty sizable operation out of JFK T1. Of course I don't have their financial information to back it up how full the flights were between say BOS/JFK-LGW but from what I understood they were decently successful.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:15 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW.


Eh, that's probably going a bit far. Long haul was never their bread and butter. Norwegian was first and foremost a European LCC, that's where their bread and butter routes lay.


Of course it wasn't some of their routes particularly were terrible (especially routes like LGW-SIN) but some routes between the East Coast of the US and London were pretty successful and they had a pretty sizable operation out of JFK T1. Of course I don't have their financial information to back it up how full the flights were between say BOS/JFK-LGW but from what I understood they were decently successful.


Succesful in what sense? With modern online booking engines that adapt pricing constantly, filling all your flights is not hard at all. But they only achieved that by selling below cost.
 
chiad
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:24 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
BOC has also cancelled 30 MAX orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.


Yikes. That's 120+ known cancellations in just the last two days, and some 720+ so far this year.
It will be interesting to see what the rest of June is hiding.
Last edited by chiad on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:26 pm

It will be interesting to see how DY moves forward with their creditors now calling the shots. My guess is that the strategy and decision making of the airline(s) will be deliberate and conservative. Routes that were unprofitable, or marginally-profitable before COVID will be dropped and perhaps one or more of the airline divisions might get shut down. Aircraft orders that they will no longer need will be canceled. If DY survives (and that prospect is still up in the air), it will be much smaller and less aggressive going forward.

The cancellation of the remaining MAX and B787 orders were pretty much expected, given the circumstances. As for the open A320/21 NEO order, I guess we'll hear about its status in due time.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:50 pm

a350lover wrote:
Could Norwegian lessors make some better money using part of the current DY fleet with any better business, or do you see Norwegian getting back to its pre-covid size (in short haul) no matter in how much time?


Right now, they probably couldn't find anyone else with which to place these aircraft. However, it does mean that Bjorn Kjos is less exposed. However, it's very likely that the fleet will be capped at what it is now. I could also see the parked B38Ms not returning, with DI/DU/DY/D8/LE using just B738s, B788s, and B789s, with the major wide-body hub being LGW.

Fleet-wise, the B788/B789 fleet will ultimately be 29 leased, 12 owned (I cannot see Boeing accepting cancellations on the B789s as they have already been built, but any Norwegian-canceled MAX orders, I could see being re-marketed to WN, with the required reconfiguration to WN's cabin requirements). The narrow-body fleet is 67 leased, 32 owned (12 of those being MAX 8).

As for the MAX 8, once the MAX can fly again, I expect them to exit the Norwegian fleet, with the owned MAX 8s being sold to the lessors for remarketing. The fleet would then be 81 B738, 8 B788, and 33 B789, with no additional orders for a good while. (The oldest B738 is only 11 years old, meaning that could fly for another 7 years until the third D-check, and then be converted to a freighter.)

As for that A321LR order, I expect that order book to be sold. Possible customers:

B6 (A320 replacement - high-time A320s)
D7/XJ (for longer service on smaller planes before the XLR is ready)
JQ and related (additional A321LRs)
6E (for Europe with somewhat of a premium cabin and accelerate A320 retirement; 6E is planning an A20N/A21N/AT76 fleet only).
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:50 pm

I would think Norwegian will only fly with leased hardware from their new lessor owners in the future. It's the only way the leasing companies can make their money back on their Norwegian rescue.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:17 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
I do not find it surprising. The MAX's overall woes make it easier for Norwegian to cancel them as well as even try to seek compensation which would be a welcome cash injection on their books.

The Airbus order is a different matter since Airbus has a problem free product and an order which is running its course as expected. Besides, as we know, Airbus has already publicly declared that it will not play ball with the airlines ref delays/cancellations (see separate treads in the matter) meaning that a review of Norwegian's order towards cancelling, delaying to oblivion, etc is much harder.

But I would not be surprised if their Airbus order is also canned somehow soon.

They may have new management but are still in dire financial straits...

Moreover with airlines that are likely to be stable in the long haul and have a large airbus fleet or fleet orders have a lot more leverage than someone like Norwegian who has a fairly small airbus order its is/was for their leasing arm a business likely to get spun off to the lessors who own the company (it's a business the new owners understand and specialize in and its the only part of Norwegian that has any real value not already mortgaged to the hilt). So if I am airbus and want to make a show of forcing people to take aircraft and abide by the contract I suspect Norwegian might be a good candidate to make the message clear.


Good point but Airbus might have to be careful not to end up with a couple of white tails if Norwegian goes down the pan. Depending on how do they get bankrupt (if they do...), those frames might be in the air - without Airbus being able to sell them on - until the company is truly liquidated.
 
DCA350
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:56 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
I do not find it surprising. The MAX's overall woes make it easier for Norwegian to cancel them as well as even try to seek compensation which would be a welcome cash injection on their books.

The Airbus order is a different matter since Airbus has a problem free product and an order which is running its course as expected. Besides, as we know, Airbus has already publicly declared that it will not play ball with the airlines ref delays/cancellations (see separate treads in the matter) meaning that a review of Norwegian's order towards cancelling, delaying to oblivion, etc is much harder.

But I would not be surprised if their Airbus order is also canned somehow soon.

They may have new management but are still in dire financial straits...

Moreover with airlines that are likely to be stable in the long haul and have a large airbus fleet or fleet orders have a lot more leverage than someone like Norwegian who has a fairly small airbus order its is/was for their leasing arm a business likely to get spun off to the lessors who own the company (it's a business the new owners understand and specialize in and its the only part of Norwegian that has any real value not already mortgaged to the hilt). So if I am airbus and want to make a show of forcing people to take aircraft and abide by the contract I suspect Norwegian might be a good candidate to make the message clear.


Good point but Airbus might have to be careful not to end up with a couple of white tails if Norwegian goes down the pan. Depending on how do they get bankrupt (if they do...), those frames might be in the air - without Airbus being able to sell them on - until the company is truly liquidated.


As soon as a multiple payments are missed Airbus can cancel the contract.. This is what happened with the Skymark A380s that they forced ANA to take.
 
DCA350
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
BOC has also cancelled 30 MAX orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.


More cancellations will continue to come in. The MAX is the easiest airframe to cancel right now.. Low hanging fruit for an airline/leasing company to reduce liabilities.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:39 am

DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Moreover with airlines that are likely to be stable in the long haul and have a large airbus fleet or fleet orders have a lot more leverage than someone like Norwegian who has a fairly small airbus order its is/was for their leasing arm a business likely to get spun off to the lessors who own the company (it's a business the new owners understand and specialize in and its the only part of Norwegian that has any real value not already mortgaged to the hilt). So if I am airbus and want to make a show of forcing people to take aircraft and abide by the contract I suspect Norwegian might be a good candidate to make the message clear.


Good point but Airbus might have to be careful not to end up with a couple of white tails if Norwegian goes down the pan. Depending on how do they get bankrupt (if they do...), those frames might be in the air - without Airbus being able to sell them on - until the company is truly liquidated.


As soon as a multiple payments are missed Airbus can cancel the contract.. This is what happened with the Skymark A380s that they forced ANA to take.


Perfectly right but:

1st - It would be potentially a decision taken by Airbus at a time of their choice. Not Norwegian;
2nd - When the Skymark debacle happened, they did have a client for their product (A380) to shove down their throats. I believe that, with the actual scenario, this may be unlikely or, at the very least, quite hard right now.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:37 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Perfectly right but:

1st - It would be potentially a decision taken by Airbus at a time of their choice. Not Norwegian;
2nd - When the Skymark debacle happened, they did have a client for their product (A380) to shove down their throats. I believe that, with the actual scenario, this may be unlikely or, at the very least, quite hard right now.


For now the Norwegian A321LRs are not yet in production, so Airbus has some time to figure out what to do with the order.
Good moaning!
 
dstblj52
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:49 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Perfectly right but:

1st - It would be potentially a decision taken by Airbus at a time of their choice. Not Norwegian;
2nd - When the Skymark debacle happened, they did have a client for their product (A380) to shove down their throats. I believe that, with the actual scenario, this may be unlikely or, at the very least, quite hard right now.


For now the Norwegian A321LRs are not yet in production, so Airbus has some time to figure out what to do with the order.

Once you signed on the dotted line airbus has to agree to defer or transfer orders looking at the market today I doubt anyone else is interested so Norwegian can figure out what to do with the aircraft
 
itisi
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:24 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?


Err... Maybe because the 321 is not grounded or crashed due to the errors of the manufacturer
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
PavlovsDog
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:14 pm

itisi wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?


Err... Maybe because the 321 is not grounded or crashed due to the errors of the manufacturer
They cancelled the Boeing order because they had an option in the contract to do so after deliveries of the Max had stopped up for a year.

The Airbus order probably still has value to either Norwegian as a replacement for their entire fleet of 738s and 787s or to their leasing company owners. I can see Norwegian resettnig with only 320 and 321 NEOs and figuring something out with their leasing company owners
 
airbazar
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:27 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.
 
ewt340
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm

airbazar wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.


That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:45 pm

airbazar wrote:
Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights.


Yes, that's right.
 
Wf789
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:56 pm

PavlovsDog wrote:
itisi wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
So why did they not cancel the A321LR order?


Err... Maybe because the 321 is not grounded or crashed due to the errors of the manufacturer
They cancelled the Boeing order because they had an option in the contract to do so after deliveries of the Max had stopped up for a year.



That option is "plane by plane," I guess less than 10 planes are more than 1 year delayed as per today.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:20 pm

ewt340 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.


That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market
 
ewt340
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:34 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.


That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


So, what they would do now is to do Seasonal Long-Haul and use A321LR on longer Intra-European flights during low-season.

Sounds better than using B787 isn't it?
 
dstblj52
Posts: 384
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:04 pm

ewt340 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


So, what they would do now is to do Seasonal Long-Haul and use A321LR on longer Intra-European flights during low-season.

Sounds better than using B787 isn't it?

Low season LCC intra europe also really doesn't make money it at best break-even for most of the carriers
 
DDR
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 pm

I will be surprised if any of these A321 aircraft ever enter service for Norwegian. Not because it’s a bad plane, it’s actually a brilliant aircraft, but I don’t see Norwegian long haul surviving Covid.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:18 am

dstblj52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.


That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am

MrHMSH wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.

Sure but thats also a very break-even or loss-making operation in the offseason shoving more aircraft onto intra europe isn't going to help the situation
 
airhansa
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:33 am

Are most people who fly on Norwegian O&D or are a sizable number of them transfer?
 
Kikko19
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:09 am

DCA350 wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
BOC has also cancelled 30 MAX orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.


More cancellations will continue to come in. The MAX is the easiest airframe to cancel right now.. Low hanging fruit for an airline/leasing company to reduce liabilities.

agree on that, airlines can wait forever and cancel it, they don't have to do it right now since the covid and max situation are evolving, but they can sit and wait patiently and walk without penalties at any time. that I would do myself.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:36 am

ewt340 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Norwegian is suffering the worst from Americans not being able to travel to Europe and vice versa. Their bread and butter was flights like JFK-LGW and MCO-LGW. Now? Their survival during the crucial summer season for European airlines they are just going to hope some venture capital firm buys them up and doesn't gut them too badly.

Uh? Their bread and butter was intra-Europe flights. Their long haul service never made a profit.


That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.


When they started to use the B787, there was NO A321LR or XLR so no chance for them to evaluate. Their business mode and the fierce competition would prevent them from making profit anyway.

Nothing to do with Airbus as it stands. Nothing to do with Boeing either if they could not make their business work LH.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:36 am

airhansa wrote:
Are most people who fly on Norwegian O&D or are a sizable number of them transfer?


O&D where? Norwegian's network is quite a mesh, they do not (for instance) fly everyone to Oslo and then back somewhere else.

I'd claim that by far most Norwegian flights are O&D to the endpoints of the flights. There's a few cases where you have to go via some place, e.g,. if I fly from Finland to some smaller town in Norway, I need to do it via Oslo. But mostly I'd be flying Helsinki to Arlanda or Helsinki to Salzburg or some such route.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 am

MrHMSH wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

That's because they use B787 rather than A321LR or XLR.

Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.


No it cannot. Might as well use their B787s then and kill the airline outright. the only airline that uses LH aircraft on SH routes is Emirates and even they are re-thinking their idea
 
Jomar777
Posts: 536
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:48 am

Kikko19 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
BOC has also cancelled 30 MAX orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.


More cancellations will continue to come in. The MAX is the easiest airframe to cancel right now.. Low hanging fruit for an airline/leasing company to reduce liabilities.

agree on that, airlines can wait forever and cancel it, they don't have to do it right now since the covid and max situation are evolving, but they can sit and wait patiently and walk without penalties at any time. that I would do myself.


They only can until the MAX is certified to fly again. Once it is, one of the likely reasons for cancellation will go and they will have to blame it all, if they can, on COVID19
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:55 am

Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.


No it cannot. Might as well use their B787s then and kill the airline outright. the only airline that uses LH aircraft on SH routes is Emirates and even they are re-thinking their idea


BA used 767 (before they were retired) on intra European flights,
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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scbriml
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:42 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

More cancellations will continue to come in. The MAX is the easiest airframe to cancel right now.. Low hanging fruit for an airline/leasing company to reduce liabilities.

agree on that, airlines can wait forever and cancel it, they don't have to do it right now since the covid and max situation are evolving, but they can sit and wait patiently and walk without penalties at any time. that I would do myself.


They only can until the MAX is certified to fly again. Once it is, one of the likely reasons for cancellation will go and they will have to blame it all, if they can, on COVID19


I think that's too optimistic. :shakehead:

Even once MAX does RTS, production rates will be very low for quite a while and factory deliveries will be running around 18 months behind schedule and getting further behind originally contracted schedules. It will be easy justification for customers to cancel orders and get their money back for quite some time to come.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:45 am

Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.


No it cannot. Might as well use their B787s then and kill the airline outright. the only airline that uses LH aircraft on SH routes is Emirates and even they are re-thinking their idea


Yes it can! Lots of airlines use LH aircraft on SH routes between LH flights.

MrHMSH's point was that using an A321 on intra-European routes in low season would be a lot more efficient than using 789s on those same routes.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:51 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

More cancellations will continue to come in. The MAX is the easiest airframe to cancel right now.. Low hanging fruit for an airline/leasing company to reduce liabilities.

agree on that, airlines can wait forever and cancel it, they don't have to do it right now since the covid and max situation are evolving, but they can sit and wait patiently and walk without penalties at any time. that I would do myself.


They only can until the MAX is certified to fly again. Once it is, one of the likely reasons for cancellation will go and they will have to blame it all, if they can, on COVID19

well well... Boeing didn't deliver planes for over a year, and i read somewhere that with one year delay the airlines can walk away without penalties. Maybe for the planes built in 2024 there will be no delays but i doubt they can ask penalties from airlines even then. lawyers will make mountain of money again.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7123
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:55 am

Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Wouldn't have made a difference the fundamental problem is where do you put planes in the off season? Because the legacies dump economy seats in the offseason and that kills the discounter market


An A321XLR could be used on intra-European routes relatively easily.


No it cannot. Might as well use their B787s then and kill the airline outright. the only airline that uses LH aircraft on SH routes is Emirates and even they are re-thinking their idea


I Don't get this.

There's a big difference between using a long-haul widebody to operate a short-haul narrowbody route, and using an A321 to fly an, er, A321 route...
The difference in operating cost to use an XLR on a normal NEO route is vanishingly small.
The single biggest attraction of the XLR IMO. The extra capability is a near "for free" as its possible to get without actually being free

Rgds
 
airhansa
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Norwegian Air Cancels Orders For 92 737 MAXs and 5 787s

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:50 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
airhansa wrote:
Are most people who fly on Norwegian O&D or are a sizable number of them transfer?


O&D where? Norwegian's network is quite a mesh, they do not (for instance) fly everyone to Oslo and then back somewhere else.

I'd claim that by far most Norwegian flights are O&D to the endpoints of the flights. There's a few cases where you have to go via some place, e.g,. if I fly from Finland to some smaller town in Norway, I need to do it via Oslo. But mostly I'd be flying Helsinki to Arlanda or Helsinki to Salzburg or some such route.


I was wondering whether DY would be able to set up a base/hub in BRU if SN were to fall, for transatlantic and long haul passengers.

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