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SYDSpotter
Posts: 883
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:34 am

qf2048 wrote:
Rex having another dig at QF for starting a new route to OAG on 20th July calling it predatory.
Rexs' most expensive fare on this route is over $500 and they sell still them at peak times.


REX has asked the government to "review" any assistance provided to Qantas under the various COVID-19 aviation assistance packages :lol: Which means more money in the pot for REX who have benefited the most from the government packages, no doubt the National Party will roll over for REX and top up their support payments...

REX better get used to this, it's just a small taste of things to come when they start SYD/MEL/BNE, because there will be plenty of capacity coming from both QF/JQ and VA.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:38 am

BNE has announced that a VA 737 will operate the first flight from its new runway on Sunday week with a flight to CNS.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
Kieros
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:39 pm

Seen elsewhere in a release to Qantas Staff:

Final 747-400ER joy flights:
Sydney: 13th July
Brisbane: 15th July
Canberra: 17th July

Tickets go on sale Tuesday 7th July:
Business class: $747
Economy class: $400

Proceeds go to HARS and Qantas Founders Museum in Longreach.

Planned departure to LAX/MHV 1400 22JUL.
 
Fuling
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:28 pm

Kieros wrote:
Business class: $747
Economy class: $400


Haha I see what they did there ;)
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:14 pm

Effective from 4 July the New South Wales government will impose a cap of 50 passengers per international flight with a maximum of 450 passengers per day through Sydney Airport. The cap will remain in place until Melbourne starts receiving international passengers again, the earliest being 15 July. Some flights are expected to be cancelled as a result of the new cap

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... cellations
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redroo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:59 pm

tullamarine wrote:
BNE has announced that a VA 737 will operate the first flight from its new runway on Sunday week with a flight to CNS.


For some reason I thought the new runway was years away. Did I get that completely wrong or has my life flashed before me?
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:59 pm

redroo wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
BNE has announced that a VA 737 will operate the first flight from its new runway on Sunday week with a flight to CNS.


For some reason I thought the new runway was years away. Did I get that completely wrong or has my life flashed before me?


It has been years in the making. One of the biggest tasks was pumping all the sand in from Moreton Bay and then letting it settle for a couple of years. The runway was opened just as CoVid was making a big impact so it served as a parking lot for many unused aircraft.
Cheers,
C1973
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:53 am

Virgin 738 VH-VUC which was rumoured to be converted for cargo ops returned to service yesterday as VA464/469 BNE-PER-BNE
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:04 am

Qantas 747 send off flight dates now confirmed

SYD - 13 July
BNE- 15 July
CBR - 17 July

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... e-canberra
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Deano969
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:19 am

With their last remaining 747s going to the boneyard I have to ask why Qantas never converted some of their retiring fleet to cargo when they sub-contract out a daily cargo run to Atlas
Is it a crewing issue?
I notice their 767 has been running pretty much non stop of late...
Why couldn't they pick up some cargo work to keep a few 747s busy?
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:15 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
redroo wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
BNE has announced that a VA 737 will operate the first flight from its new runway on Sunday week with a flight to CNS.


For some reason I thought the new runway was years away. Did I get that completely wrong or has my life flashed before me?


It has been years in the making. One of the biggest tasks was pumping all the sand in from Moreton Bay and then letting it settle for a couple of years. The runway was opened just as CoVid was making a big impact so it served as a parking lot for many unused aircraft.

BNE new runway was never used to park any aircraft.


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zkncj
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:29 am

Deano969 wrote:
With their last remaining 747s going to the boneyard I have to ask why Qantas never converted some of their retiring fleet to cargo when they sub-contract out a daily cargo run to Atlas
Is it a crewing issue?
I notice their 767 has been running pretty much non stop of late...
Why couldn't they pick up some cargo work to keep a few 747s busy?


Cargo demand is very liquid, wet-leases allows for allot more flexibility when required.

The 767 is been busy with lack of passenger flights currently, tonight the Tasman run is being followed by an A333 (this happened an few times in the last week).

Normally it just does an nightly SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD service.
 
F100Flyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:57 am

qf2048 wrote:
Rex having another dig at QF for starting a new route to OAG on 20th July calling it predatory.
Rexs' most expensive fare on this route is over $500 and they sell still them at peak times.


And everyone's view, but ZL, of a $500 ticket to Orange is predatory. Surely if there's $500 tickets on the route there appears to be demand for further flights.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:03 am

zkncj wrote:
Deano969 wrote:
With their last remaining 747s going to the boneyard I have to ask why Qantas never converted some of their retiring fleet to cargo when they sub-contract out a daily cargo run to Atlas
Is it a crewing issue?
I notice their 767 has been running pretty much non stop of late...
Why couldn't they pick up some cargo work to keep a few 747s busy?


Cargo demand is very liquid, wet-leases allows for allot more flexibility when required.

The 767 is been busy with lack of passenger flights currently, tonight the Tasman run is being followed by an A333 (this happened an few times in the last week).

Normally it just does an nightly SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD service.

The A330 SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD Freighter operates every Saturday due to the -EFR freighter doing the HKG run.


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tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:15 am

EK413 wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
redroo wrote:

For some reason I thought the new runway was years away. Did I get that completely wrong or has my life flashed before me?


It has been years in the making. One of the biggest tasks was pumping all the sand in from Moreton Bay and then letting it settle for a couple of years. The runway was opened just as CoVid was making a big impact so it served as a parking lot for many unused aircraft.

BNE new runway was never used to park any aircraft.

Correct, the aircraft parked at BNE due to Covid were parked on the now-retired cross-runway 14/32.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:41 am

EK413 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Deano969 wrote:
With their last remaining 747s going to the boneyard I have to ask why Qantas never converted some of their retiring fleet to cargo when they sub-contract out a daily cargo run to Atlas
Is it a crewing issue?
I notice their 767 has been running pretty much non stop of late...
Why couldn't they pick up some cargo work to keep a few 747s busy?


Cargo demand is very liquid, wet-leases allows for allot more flexibility when required.

The 767 is been busy with lack of passenger flights currently, tonight the Tasman run is being followed by an A333 (this happened an few times in the last week).

Normally it just does an nightly SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD service.

The A330 SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD Freighter operates every Saturday due to the -EFR freighter doing the HKG run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 763 has been up to HKG more recently while also doing additional daytime Tasman runs while the A333 covers when the 763 is in HKG.
 
FL420FT
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:03 pm

Regarding how fluid the freight business is and how busy the dedicated freight aircraft have been. I have watched on FR24 a few nights where a PEL Air SF340 freighter has been operating with a QF flight number on some nights during the week from BNE to SYD. Including a Toll ATR freighter that has flowing into Bankstown late at night on occasion.
 
zkncj
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:11 am

FL420FT wrote:
Regarding how fluid the freight business is and how busy the dedicated freight aircraft have been. I have watched on FR24 a few nights where a PEL Air SF340 freighter has been operating with a QF flight number on some nights during the week from BNE to SYD. Including a Toll ATR freighter that has flowing into Bankstown late at night on occasion.


There has also been about of Air Naru 733F flights on the Tasman too with QF flight numbers.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:16 am

Business is business and airlines seem to work in a perpetual state of frenemies with the other carriers around them. Not a bad way to be so they can take advantage of opportunities out there
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:56 pm

Qantas A380 VH-OQE filed MEL-VCV 12:30PM - 9:23AM as QF6001. This is the first Qantas A380 to head to VCV, and the first A380 at a boneyard in the US.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA6001
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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qf2220
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:24 am

They tried this the other day but it didnt happen - i guess we will find out in a few hours if this one will.
 
skennedy
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:34 am

It actually looks like they have moved VH-OQE from opposite terminal 2 to Qantas maintenance rather than the random ADS-B movements over the past few months. Maybe today is the day.
 
melpax
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:41 am

The Victoria-NSW border will close at Midnight tomorrow night (Tuesday)....

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 559cv.html
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:47 am

skennedy wrote:
It actually looks like they have moved VH-OQE from opposite terminal 2 to Qantas maintenance rather than the random ADS-B movements over the past few months. Maybe today is the day.


It is showing on the QF internal system as a departure from MEL International gate 16. It wasn’t last time.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:13 am

qf2220 wrote:
They tried this the other day but it didnt happen - i guess we will find out in a few hours if this one will.

It will happen with the remaining Australian based A380s to follow...


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Whatsaptudo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:14 am

Interesting Tidbit is the pilots receiving briefing material for Edmonton/ Churchill/Iqaluit/Keflavik and a couple more (would be in case of diversion on their way to VCV). The A380’s in Dresden and Abu Dhabi will be flying across the Atlantic.
 
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a36001
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:54 am

This looks interesting:Virgin sale to Bain being challenged??

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 559ee.html
 
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:13 am

The 1st QF A380 ‘Lawrence Hargrave’ scheduled to head into long term storage about to push back.


Flight QF6001 from Melbourne to Victorville
https://fr24.com/QFA6001/24dcb516


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gpasternak
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:18 am

I noticed 9V-SKT was visible in FR24, on the ground in ASP. I don't have much knowledge of transponders etc, and also know there are occasionally random planes appearing on FR, but could this be a systems check or a potential flight back to SIN?
 
zkncj
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:37 am

melpax wrote:
The Victoria-NSW border will close at Midnight tomorrow night (Tuesday)....

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 559cv.html


Will be interesting to see what restrictions are placed on VIC based air crew over the next couple of weeks.

Typically air crew have an exemptions for most COVID19 restrictions, that allow them to keep flying for operational requirements.

I would assume that NSW/QLD would not want crew based on MEL operating flights within there states.
 
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CraigAnderson
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:29 am

QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:36 am

EK413 wrote:
The 1st QF A380 ‘Lawrence Hargrave’ scheduled to head into long term storage about to push back.


Flight QF6001 from Melbourne to Victorville
https://fr24.com/QFA6001/24dcb516


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its on its way....
 
Flymetothemoono
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:50 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.
 
melpax
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:53 am

Further to the NSW/VIC border closure tomorrow night, NSW has declared all of the Melbourne Metro area a Coronavirus hot-spot, and will not allow anyone from the Melbourne Metro area into NSW as of Midnight tonight.....
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:01 am

Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.

RUBBISH!! I challenge you to find me any published fare of Australia to the West Coast return for $400. In high season, you wouldn't get a J class return ticket for 10 times the $747 joyflight fare.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:06 am

gpasternak wrote:
I noticed 9V-SKT was visible in FR24, on the ground in ASP. I don't have much knowledge of transponders etc, and also know there are occasionally random planes appearing on FR, but could this be a systems check or a potential flight back to SIN?


The storage facility also employs their own engineering team. So when you pay to park, they also maintain the aircraft.

I’m not certain to what degree of engineering services are available. Maybe someone with more knowledge can describe that.
Cheers,
C1973
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:09 am

tullamarine wrote:
Correct, the aircraft parked at BNE due to Covid were parked on the now-retired cross-runway 14/32.



My bad, thanks for correcting (and EK413).
Last edited by Chipmunk1973 on Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,
C1973
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:19 am

EK413 wrote:
The 1st QF A380 ‘Lawrence Hargrave’ scheduled to head into long term storage about to push back.


Flight QF6001 from Melbourne to Victorville
https://fr24.com/QFA6001/24dcb516


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m curious how these ferry flights operate.

Do the flight crew prepare their own meals, as in just reheat a prepared meal, or would they bring one or two cabin crew?

With not having to take pax, luggage and cargo, how much less fuel would they need?

Thanks.
Cheers,
C1973
 
Fuling
Posts: 276
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
The 1st QF A380 ‘Lawrence Hargrave’ scheduled to head into long term storage about to push back.


Flight QF6001 from Melbourne to Victorville
https://fr24.com/QFA6001/24dcb516


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m curious how these ferry flights operate.

Do the flight crew prepare their own meals, as in just reheat a prepared meal, or would they bring one or two cabin crew?

With not having to take pax, luggage and cargo, how much less fuel would they need?

Thanks.


Only flight crew operate these flights. Similar to cargo flights. The flight crew can operate doors and galley ovens too. Would be curious about what meals are loaded though.
 
Flymetothemoono
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:58 am

tullamarine wrote:
Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.

RUBBISH!! I challenge you to find me any published fare of Australia to the West Coast return for $400. In high season, you wouldn't get a J class return ticket for 10 times the $747 joyflight fare.

Sorry I meant the $747 fare. You can fly economy from bne Syd Mel to lax or Syd Mel to SFO return departing late December or early January for under $800 return.
 
Flymetothemoono
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:58 am

tullamarine wrote:
Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.

RUBBISH!! I challenge you to find me any published fare of Australia to the West Coast return for $400. In high season, you wouldn't get a J class return ticket for 10 times the $747 joyflight fare.

Sorry I meant the $747 fare. You can fly economy from bne Syd Mel to lax or Syd Mel to SFO return departing late December or early January for under $800 return.
 
freshwater
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:07 am

Flymetothemoono wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Flymetothemoono wrote:
Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.

RUBBISH!! I challenge you to find me any published fare of Australia to the West Coast return for $400. In high season, you wouldn't get a J class return ticket for 10 times the $747 joyflight fare.

Sorry I meant the $747 fare. You can fly economy from bne Syd Mel to lax or Syd Mel to SFO return departing late December or early January for under $800 return.


No you cannot, especially in high season
 
VHZNE
Posts: 92
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:45 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.


Noice. Where did you hear that?
 
Flymetothemoono
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:42 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:54 am

VHZNE wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.


Noice. Where did you hear that?

It was through a wholesaler last week. I'll see if I can find the email.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:11 am

Fuling wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
The 1st QF A380 ‘Lawrence Hargrave’ scheduled to head into long term storage about to push back.


Flight QF6001 from Melbourne to Victorville
https://fr24.com/QFA6001/24dcb516


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m curious how these ferry flights operate.

Do the flight crew prepare their own meals, as in just reheat a prepared meal, or would they bring one or two cabin crew?

With not having to take pax, luggage and cargo, how much less fuel would they need?

Thanks.


Only flight crew operate these flights. Similar to cargo flights. The flight crew can operate doors and galley ovens too. Would be curious about what meals are loaded though.

They receive similar meals as per the scheduled QF93 which consist of a main meal, refreshments & breakfast prior to landing in VCV...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Flymetothemoono
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 am

VHZNE wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.


Noice. Where did you hear that?
tried to send you a pm ?
 
VHMHS
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:05 am

Channel 7 Adelaide reports that Emirates has just pulled out of Adelaide.
I’ve been on a metro 23, Saab 340, dash 8 300, B717, B737 (700, 800) 747-400, 757-200, A320, A321, A380.
 
747m8te
Posts: 437
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:41 am

Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.


Not really that bad for a 3hr joy flight during these tough times which isn't going to have low fares offset by high fares. Anyway that is not exactly the point... the profit from these fares are being donated to the Longreach and HARS museums I believe..I'd be happy to pay a premium for that!
Flown on:
DHC8Q200,DHC8Q300,DHC8Q400, EMB145,E170,E175,E190, A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A380, MD80, B712,B733,B734,B737,B738,B743,B744,B744ER,B762,B763,B77W
 
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Dalavia
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:56 am

747m8te wrote:
Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.


Not really that bad for a 3hr joy flight during these tough times which isn't going to have low fares offset by high fares. Anyway that is not exactly the point... the profit from these fares are being donated to the Longreach and HARS museums I believe..I'd be happy to pay a premium for that!


I understand the flights are one hour, not three hours.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:28 am

tullamarine wrote:
Flymetothemoono wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
QF747 tickets for SYD, BNE and CBR joyflights to go on sale noon this Wednesday, $400 for economy and $747 for business class.

Crazy expensive. For that much can fly to lax or SFO return from bne Syd or Mel in high season.

RUBBISH!! I challenge you to find me any published fare of Australia to the West Coast return for $400. In high season, you wouldn't get a J class return ticket for 10 times the $747 joyflight fare.


Just ignore him and advise everyone to do the same. The only bit he left out was the via NAN bit and I am sure you will recognize who this now
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