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qf789
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Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:29 pm

Welcome to 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1445841

Link to 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437865

Just a reminder to keep your posts on topic, personal attacks and flamebait are left out of the discussion, if you are quoting from news sources to add links and your own comments
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BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:54 pm

Are there any test flights planned for today? It looks like all the flights yesterday lasted longer than originally filed. Is it possible that all testing objectives have been accomplished yesterday?

Unless there is a different flight number, nothing is showing up under BOE701.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:00 pm

100 more Max orders cancelled by Norwegian. BOC Aviation also cancelled 30 orders
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added.
 
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:09 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
Are there any test flights planned for today? It looks like all the flights yesterday lasted longer than originally filed. Is it possible that all testing objectives have been accomplished yesterday?

Unless there is a different flight number, nothing is showing up under BOE701.

They might be waiting for the weather - it's pretty soupy here right now - very low ceiling and drizzle/fog,
 
 
airboss787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:33 pm

Really looking forward to the MAX getting certified this quarter and being able to fly again commercially soon.
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HII
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:07 pm

Also looks like they are testing a the Max-8 and Max-9 today as well. 8 is in the air and 9 is scheduled.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KMWH
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KRNT/KMWH
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:32 pm

I'm predicting the official RTS will be granted in Q3, but it'll be Q4 before we see any Max's back in service,
those already owned by the airlines of course.

And God only knows how long it'll take to clear the inventory of undelivered frames
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:23 pm

HII wrote:
Also looks like they are testing a the Max-8 and Max-9 today as well. 8 is in the air and 9 is scheduled.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KMWH
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KRNT/KMWH


These might just be regular test flights, remember that Boeing has been flying MAX's daily. The MAX 7 test aircraft has been the test aircraft for all the fixes through the grounding.
 
HII
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:51 am

ikolkyo wrote:
HII wrote:
Also looks like they are testing a the Max-8 and Max-9 today as well. 8 is in the air and 9 is scheduled.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KMWH
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KRNT/KMWH


These might just be regular test flights, remember that Boeing has been flying MAX's daily. The MAX 7 test aircraft has been the test aircraft for all the fixes through the grounding.



Makes sense! Thanks!
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:12 am

ER757 wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
Are there any test flights planned for today? It looks like all the flights yesterday lasted longer than originally filed. Is it possible that all testing objectives have been accomplished yesterday?

Unless there is a different flight number, nothing is showing up under BOE701.

They might be waiting for the weather - it's pretty soupy here right now - very low ceiling and drizzle/fog,

In other words, the weather is normal. :cry:
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:10 pm

ST: Inspector General report details how Boeing played down MCAS in original 737 MAX certification – and FAA missed it says:

A report set to be released Wednesday by the Inspector General of the U.S. Department of Transportation concludes that Boeing deliberately played down the details of the flight control system that later helped bring down two 737 MAX jets so that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), responsible for certifying the new system, entirely missed its significance and danger.

This is the long awaited "Inspector General's Report". It highlights something we knew for a while, that Boeing deliberately chose to describe the MCAS system as a modification to the existing speed trim system to avoid classifying it as a new system that would presumably need simulator training.

It's not really clear to me if the word "deliberately" is coming from the report itself or from ST's characterization of the report. Regardless, we knew it was a deliberate thing, we had some emails included in the "text message dump" that shows how Boeing was shaping the messaging to the FAA.

I found one small section pretty troubling:

According to the report, the FAA in late 2013 had delegated to Boeing only 28 out of 87 detailed certification projects on the MAX, retaining the rest.

But three years later, it had delegated 79 of the now 91 projects and by March 2017, the “FAA eventually delegated all 91 certification plans to Boeing.”

This report doesn't seem to highlight that it was FAA's managers who pressured its staff to delegate this work to Boeing mainly because Boeing was more concerned about hitting schedule dates than getting the work done as thoroughly as possible.

It ends with:

In a memo offered as an appendix, Department of Transportation General Counsel Steven Bradbury writes a preliminary response to the IG report.

The IG review “makes clear that FAA’s certification of the 737 MAX was hampered by a lack of effective communication … which led to an incomplete understanding of the scope and potential safety impacts of changes to the flight control system,” Bradbury wrote.

“FAA’s certification process relies on receiving complete, candid information from manufacturers,” he added. “The agency will be taking further steps to ensure integrity and transparency.”

I hope this means the end of the "Jedi mind tricks" era. Time will tell.
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MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:57 pm

Looks like BOE 701 is scheduled for day 3 of testing. Departure is in under 1 hour from now at 10:35AM PDT.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:22 pm

A max 8 and max 9 are also in the air testing
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:26 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
A max 8 and max 9 are also in the air testing


Those are the frames built for customers. FAA testing is done on a 7.

New test flight just started: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:05 pm

They are pulling some super tight turns now. I wonder if someone with inside knowledge of the testing will say how things went.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:19 pm

The horizontal flight profile looks quite interesting as well.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:48 pm

It looks like testing is done. Flying back to BFI. I hope it all went well.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:02 pm

After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:16 pm

Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.

It looks like it was. If it wasn’t intended I don’t think the flight would’ve continued as it did. They climbed back up and as they were climbing they kept making the sharp turns
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:24 pm

Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:43 pm

planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo

Yes FAA released a statement on their website saying the flight tests are complete and they’re now onto reviewing the data and then other documentation
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:57 pm

Michael o Leary says the first test flight seems to have gone well as he discusses first delivery for November

"The first test flight was on Tuesday, that seems to have gone well and if that keeps on track then at least we hope to be welcoming our first 30-40 for summer 2021 and that would enable us to restart growth," O'Leary told Reuters.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN242590
 
HII
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:07 pm

planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo


This video revealed nothing honestly.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:11 am

HII wrote:
planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo


This video revealed nothing honestly.


I was being sarcastic. There was a 3 second view inside the cockpit.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:51 am

planecane wrote:
I was being sarcastic. There was a 3 second view inside the cockpit.


I thought that Boeing pilot looked somewhat green after being exposed to all the tight turns. :)
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:30 am

planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo

Are they wearing parachutes @ 0:20 of the YouTube vid?
 
HII
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:18 am

planecane wrote:
HII wrote:
planecane wrote:

I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo


This video revealed nothing honestly.


I was being sarcastic. There was a 3 second view inside the cockpit.


Makes sense now, sarcasm surely wasn’t my strong suit today! :duck:
 
BBLIMA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:04 am

Why to test a 737max-7 if the troubles occurred with two 737max-8?

Ok, they are of the same family, but seeing that the troubles was related to aerodynamical aspects (that was tried to fix with electronics) it should have a lot more sense to certified the same kind of airplane that crashed. No?

Boeing and FAA need a big facelift to regain thrust and the only way I see to achieve this is to play with smart marketing choices and transparency in the communications.
I think that choosing for the certification a different plane than the one crashed is not a very smart marketing move.

I hope to see some certification flights also for the other models and the announcement of the certification success only after the max-8 test runs...
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:41 am

BBLIMA wrote:
Why to test a 737max-7 if the troubles occurred with two 737max-8?


AFAIK the 7 is the normal 737 MAX test plane for Boeing. It has lots of instrumentation already on board.

Secondly: The shifted center of lift (due to the larger engines) is worse on the shorter 7 than on the longer 8, 9 or 10.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:33 pm

Even after the certification flights, a lot of works still needs to be done.

Certification may follow as early as mid-September.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing on Wednesday completed the required re-certification flight tests on the 737 MAX, taking the plane a step closer to FAA approval to return to service.

An extensive to-do list must be accomplished before the plane can receive clearance to fly passengers again, a milestone now expected no sooner than mid-September.


And entry into service should happen somewhere in Q4.

Even then, it will probably be another couple of months before U.S. airlines can put the MAX into service.

The FAA will have to approve the pilot training programs at each airline, after which the carriers will run thousands of pilots through simulator training.

The FAA must also perform in-person, individual reviews of each of the several hundred MAXs that Boeing built since the grounding but hasn’t delivered.


If there are no further slips.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-737-max/
Good moaning!
 
AndoAv8R
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:10 pm

Has anyone heard how the flight testing went? cant find any information other than the generic FAA statement. I assume Steve Dickenson/FAA Chief was flying at least one of those test flights since he stated in the hearing he wouldn't sign off until he flew it himself.

Also wasnt sure if anyone listed this yet it looks like the fleet for the re-certification flights was: 7max-N7201S, the 8max was OK-SWS, and the 9max was D-ASMA. Anyone know why these aircraft got selected?
 
GmoneyCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:30 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
After 49 minutes of flight they descended down to 600 meters only after some steep turn maneuvering. Hope this was intended to be this way.


I assume it was planned since, according to Jon Ostrower, the FAA says the test flights are complete:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 8359090182

Also they released a very revealing video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDgWYO3 ... e=emb_logo

Are they wearing parachutes @ 0:20 of the YouTube vid?


No, those are normal backpacks. One is a Swissgear similar to what I used to use on a daily basis.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:41 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
Has anyone heard how the flight testing went? cant find any information other than the generic FAA statement.


Do you really think you're going to hear anything other than 'generic statements' until all the data analysis is completed? Don't hold your breath.
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GmoneyCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:46 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
Has anyone heard how the flight testing went? cant find any information other than the generic FAA statement. I assume Steve Dickenson/FAA Chief was flying at least one of those test flights since he stated in the hearing he wouldn't sign off until he flew it himself.

Also wasnt sure if anyone listed this yet it looks like the fleet for the re-certification flights was: 7max-N7201S, the 8max was OK-SWS, and the 9max was D-ASMA. Anyone know why these aircraft got selected?


FAA Administrator Dickenson was not on any of the flights. Once they go through the data collected during the 3 flights and the FAA is satisfied with the results and the EU.Canada/Brazil are happy then he will fly the plane. My hunch is that he wont fly it until sometime in late August or September.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:53 pm

planecane wrote:
Also they released a very revealing video:


What did you find revealing about the video? I saw a takeoff, a landing, and two of the world's most uncomfortable jumpseats.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:56 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
Also wasnt sure if anyone listed this yet it looks like the fleet for the re-certification flights was: 7max-N7201S, the 8max was OK-SWS, and the 9max was D-ASMA. Anyone know why these aircraft got selected?


Only MAX 7 was used for the FAA certification test flights. It has all the instrumentation installed. Also, as flyingturtle has said, the CoG issue is the most pronounced on MAX 7 so it's best suited for these tests. Check the flight history: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7201S

MAX 8 you mention had no flights that I could find. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/OKSWS

MAX 9 you mention is just another aircraft that was produced, tested, and parked. It had no instrumentation on board. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DASMA
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
AndoAv8R wrote:
Has anyone heard how the flight testing went? cant find any information other than the generic FAA statement.


Do you really think you're going to hear anything other than 'generic statements' until all the data analysis is completed? Don't hold your breath.

Well the last time they had test flights when they sprung the bit flip test, the bad news came out pretty quickly, so........
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:01 pm

GmoneyCO wrote:
AndoAv8R wrote:
Has anyone heard how the flight testing went? cant find any information other than the generic FAA statement. I assume Steve Dickenson/FAA Chief was flying at least one of those test flights since he stated in the hearing he wouldn't sign off until he flew it himself.

Also wasnt sure if anyone listed this yet it looks like the fleet for the re-certification flights was: 7max-N7201S, the 8max was OK-SWS, and the 9max was D-ASMA. Anyone know why these aircraft got selected?


FAA Administrator Dickenson was not on any of the flights. Once they go through the data collected during the 3 flights and the FAA is satisfied with the results and the EU.Canada/Brazil are happy then he will fly the plane. My hunch is that he wont fly it until sometime in late August or September.

Yes, we sometimes forget that he was added to the list of items to be cleared before the a/c can receive RTS clearance by the FAA.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:03 pm

I can't wait until it is certified and returns to the sky. I have to say though, from a marketing perspective, I'm surprised Boeing has retained the 'MAX' name and still has it painted all over the plane.
Whatever
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:22 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I can't wait until it is certified and returns to the sky. I have to say though, from a marketing perspective, I'm surprised Boeing has retained the 'MAX' name and still has it painted all over the plane.


Yeah they just need to call it the 737-8, 737-9, etc. Drop the Max name.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:24 pm

I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well. You can make the argument that the -7MAX has the bigger issue CoG issue, but considering there have been 2 accidents on the -8MAX, you'd think they would test it on there as well to help put everyone mind at ease (test it on every variant, actually).

Perhaps they are and we don't know about it yet. I'd suggest 'better safe than sorry' approach. Test the software on the -7, -8, -9 & -10. Just my opinion though.
Whatever
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:50 pm

par13del wrote:
Well the last time they had test flights when they sprung the bit flip test, the bad news came out pretty quickly, so........


IMHO, very different situation now.

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Perhaps they are and we don't know about it yet.


As reported up-thread, the FAA says it's all done.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93206
7/1/2020

FAA Statement on 737 MAX Certification Flights

The FAA and Boeing today completed the certification flight tests on the Boeing 737 MAX. During three days of testing this week, FAA pilots and engineers evaluated Boeing’s proposed changes in connection with the automated flight control system on the aircraft. While completion of the flights is an important milestone, a number of key tasks remain, including evaluating the data gathered during these flights. The agency is following a deliberate process and will take the time it needs to thoroughly review Boeing’s work. We will lift the grounding order only after FAA safety experts are satisfied that the aircraft meets certification standards.


The statement then goes on to outline the remaining steps before RTS:
JOEB Validation & FSB Review – The FAA’s Flight Standardization Board (FSB) and the Joint Operations Evaluation Board (JOEB) which includes international partners from Canada, Europe, and Brazil will evaluate minimum pilot training requirements. The FSB will issue a draft report for public comment addressing the findings of the FSB and JOEB.
Final FSB Report – The FAA will publish a final FSB report after reviewing and addressing public comments.
Final Design Documentation and TAB Report – The FAA will review Boeing’s final design documentation in order to evaluate compliance with all FAA regulations. The multi-agency Technical Advisory Board (TAB) will also review the final Boeing submission and issue a final report prior to a final determination of compliance by the FAA.
CANIC & AD – The FAA will issue a Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community (CANIC) providing notice of pending significant safety actions and will publish an Airworthiness Directive (AD) that addresses the known issues for grounding. The AD will advise operators of required corrective actions before aircraft may re-enter commercial service.
FAA Rescinds Grounding Order – This marks the official ungrounding of the aircraft, pending completion by operators of the work specified in the AD, along with any required training.
Certificates of Airworthiness – The FAA will retain its authority to issue airworthiness certificates and export certificates for all new 737 MAX airplanes manufactured since the grounding. The FAA will perform in-person, individual reviews of these aircraft.
Operator Training Programs – The FAA will review and approve training programs for all part 121 operators.


So even after the FAA rescinds the grounding order, airlines will have to complete the work per the AD on each of their delivered MAX and complete the training programs. Additionally, the FAA is going to issue CoAs and export certificates for all the undelivered MAX. Still a lot of work to be done.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:29 pm

I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well. You can make the argument that the -7MAX has the bigger issue CoG issue, but considering there have been 2 accidents on the -8MAX, you'd think they would test it on there as well to help put everyone mind at ease (test it on every variant, actually).


Concur. I'm also surprised at the relatively small number of test flights. To allay public and congressional concerns about the cozy relationship between Boeing and the FAA, I'd have thought that they'd be doing many more flights over several weeks, perhaps even inviting some line airline pilots along for their input and experiences. If everything works out, then great. However, if there is, Heaven forbid, another MAX crash then I fear the small number of test flights will become an issue.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:33 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well.


If it works on the frame that is most-affected, then it arguably should work on frames that are less-affected. And if the primary purpose of this flight was to validate the software and procedural changes, then you can plug those into the -8, -9 and -10 simulators with confidence that when pilots train, they're training with known good data.

Aptivaboy wrote:
Concur. I'm also surprised at the relatively small number of test flights.


If the primary focus was validating the fix, you might not need many tests. It either works as expected, or it doesn't. And if it does (which the implication this is the case), then you can proceed with simulator training for flight crews.


We also need to recognize this flight test is not the end of the process, but just another step - and an early step at that - to returning the MAX to service.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:30 pm

Stitch wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well.


If it works on the frame that is most-affected, then it arguably should work on frames that are less-affected. And if the primary purpose of this flight was to validate the software and procedural changes, then you can plug those into the -8, -9 and -10 simulators with confidence that when pilots train, they're training with known good data.

Aptivaboy wrote:
Concur. I'm also surprised at the relatively small number of test flights.


If the primary focus was validating the fix, you might not need many tests. It either works as expected, or it doesn't. And if it does (which the implication this is the case), then you can proceed with simulator training for flight crews.


We also need to recognize this flight test is not the end of the process, but just another step - and an early step at that - to returning the MAX to service.


I agree that the theory should work just as you pointed out. However, there are a lot of theories that just don't pan out the right way in real life. For Boeing's sake, I hope it does work out by just adding the software to the other models, but after 2 crashes, you'd think they would take the one extra step and test it on all the models (not just in a simulator). I'm a huge Boeing fan and would step on any MAX in a heartbeat, but for the public's sake, just test it on all of the models.

The problem with theories is that they work...until they don't. In theory, you'd take out the longest mortgage possible on house because with low interest rates, you'd make more by being invested in good, growth stock mutual funds. The reality is, the people who file bankruptcy are the ones with mortgage and debt. The reality is, you build wealth and financial independence by paying off your home and debt. The reality is, people become ill and can't work. The reality is, while it will usually work, the market does go down from time to time and would yield that theory useless. It's long winded way of saying that theories are good, but in every day practice, don't always stack up.

Come on Boeing, put every day pilots behind the wheel of every MAX model and get it right -- not just in theory.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well. You can make the argument that the -7MAX has the bigger issue CoG issue, but considering there have been 2 accidents on the -8MAX, you'd think they would test it on there as well to help put everyone mind at ease (test it on every variant, actually).


Concur. I'm also surprised at the relatively small number of test flights. To allay public and congressional concerns about the cozy relationship between Boeing and the FAA, I'd have thought that they'd be doing many more flights over several weeks, perhaps even inviting some line airline pilots along for their input and experiences. If everything works out, then great. However, if there is, Heaven forbid, another MAX crash then I fear the small number of test flights will become an issue.


While there were only a few days of official FAA test flights, don't forget that Boeing themselves have had countless test flights on their own and I'm sure are providing that data as well. The re-certification process is painting the entire picture from beginning to end, not just 3 days of official testing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:37 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
I agree that the theory should work just as you pointed out. However, there are a lot of theories that just don't pan out the right way in real life. For Boeing's sake, I hope it does work out by just adding the software to the other models, but after 2 crashes, you'd think they would take the one extra step and test it on all the models (not just in a simulator).


And maybe they will do the road before official RTS. And if not Boeing, maybe another regulatory agency. Or an airline.

But since the 737-7 is the frame that has all the sensors to actually collect the test data, it made sense to be the frame they did said tests on. Doing it on an uninstrumented 737-8 would not have been nearly as productive.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
BBLIMA wrote:
Why to test a 737max-7 if the troubles occurred with two 737max-8?


AFAIK the 7 is the normal 737 MAX test plane for Boeing. It has lots of instrumentation already on board.

Secondly: The shifted center of lift (due to the larger engines) is worse on the shorter 7 than on the longer 8, 9 or 10.

I think it's more an accident of history. -7 was certified after -8. The -7 launch customers (Westjet, Southwest) pushed back their orders so there was no rush to remove the test instrumentation, then the MCAS crisis came along and it was obvious they'd need a test vehicle.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
ST: Inspector General report details how Boeing played down MCAS in original 737 MAX certification – and FAA missed it says:

A report set to be released Wednesday by the Inspector General of the U.S. Department of Transportation concludes that Boeing deliberately played down the details of the flight control system that later helped bring down two 737 MAX jets so that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), responsible for certifying the new system, entirely missed its significance and danger.

This is the long awaited "Inspector General's Report". It highlights something we knew for a while, that Boeing deliberately chose to describe the MCAS system as a modification to the existing speed trim system to avoid classifying it as a new system that would presumably need simulator training.

It's not really clear to me if the word "deliberately" is coming from the report itself or from ST's characterization of the report. Regardless, we knew it was a deliberate thing, we had some emails included in the "text message dump" that shows how Boeing was shaping the messaging to the FAA.

I found one small section pretty troubling:

According to the report, the FAA in late 2013 had delegated to Boeing only 28 out of 87 detailed certification projects on the MAX, retaining the rest.

But three years later, it had delegated 79 of the now 91 projects and by March 2017, the “FAA eventually delegated all 91 certification plans to Boeing.”

This report doesn't seem to highlight that it was FAA's managers who pressured its staff to delegate this work to Boeing mainly because Boeing was more concerned about hitting schedule dates than getting the work done as thoroughly as possible.

It ends with:

In a memo offered as an appendix, Department of Transportation General Counsel Steven Bradbury writes a preliminary response to the IG report.

The IG review “makes clear that FAA’s certification of the 737 MAX was hampered by a lack of effective communication … which led to an incomplete understanding of the scope and potential safety impacts of changes to the flight control system,” Bradbury wrote.

“FAA’s certification process relies on receiving complete, candid information from manufacturers,” he added. “The agency will be taking further steps to ensure integrity and transparency.”

I hope this means the end of the "Jedi mind tricks" era. Time will tell.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -the-hook/ reports criticism of the IG report.
  • No mention of FAA's botched response to the first accident and rubber stamping Boeing's less than perfect procedures for dealing with MCAS rather than doing a full investigation that might have avoided the second accident
  • No exploration of how/why FAA started out keeping MCAS approval for itself then later ceding it to Boeing (presumably due to Boeing pressuring FAA because of schedule targets)
  • No actual recommendations/todos for FAA as a result of this report

The source of these criticisms is "An FAA safety engineer familiar with how the MAX was certified".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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