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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
No mention of FAA's botched response to the first accident and rubber stamping Boeing's less than perfect procedures for dealing with MCAS rather than doing a full investigation that might have avoided the second accident.


I can't help but think part of this was because the FAA and Boeing were of the initial opinion the crash had to have been due to either poor crew training or poor maintenance at Lion Air, said thinking influenced by their overall safety record.

The general opinion of Ethiopian as an operator was much better so when they lost a bird under what seemed at the time to be similar circumstances, that is when everyone really stood up and took notice and started paying real attention.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:41 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I am also surprised they aren't testing the software on the -8MAX as well. You can make the argument that the -7MAX has the bigger issue CoG issue, but considering there have been 2 accidents on the -8MAX, you'd think they would test it on there as well to help put everyone mind at ease (test it on every variant, actually).


Concur. I'm also surprised at the relatively small number of test flights. To allay public and congressional concerns about the cozy relationship between Boeing and the FAA, I'd have thought that they'd be doing many more flights over several weeks, perhaps even inviting some line airline pilots along for their input and experiences. If everything works out, then great. However, if there is, Heaven forbid, another MAX crash then I fear the small number of test flights will become an issue.


So you want them to fly around even after completing all tests just for show? I don't think that's a good use of public funds.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:49 pm

Will they do a low altitude roll over the lake in Seattle as part of the testing? :bouncy: :duck:
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TaromA380
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:26 am

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
No mention of FAA's botched response to the first accident and rubber stamping Boeing's less than perfect procedures for dealing with MCAS rather than doing a full investigation that might have avoided the second accident.


I can't help but think part of this was because the FAA and Boeing were of the initial opinion the crash had to have been due to either poor crew training or poor maintenance at Lion Air, said thinking influenced by their overall safety record.

The general opinion of Ethiopian as an operator was much better so when they lost a bird under what seemed at the time to be similar circumstances, that is when everyone really stood up and took notice and started paying real attention.

Everyone but the FAA.

Let's remember how they stood and did nothing after the Ethiopian crash, while the rest of the world was grounding the Max.

That day when they were forced by presidential decree to ground the Max meant the fall of the FAA as most prestigious regulator in the world. The United States FAA, once the reference for the rest of the world, the authority that approved the Max with faulty MCAS, was.the.last.to.ground.the.Max!
The FAA crashed together with the Max and that day the world discovered how deep, beyond any imagination, the FAA went down.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:19 am

FAA had been almost paralyzed by the political quarrels in DC. Politics interfered with FAA financing and "industry support" as a political requirement for FAA's certification work. Now that this is solved on the higher DC levels FAA looks to be back in the business to me. The root causes are/were higher level problems in DC.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:26 am

https://simpleflying.com/alaska-airline ... ommitment/

Alaska Air CEO sat down with aviation week for an interview.

We now have the first insight into how the tests went. Not granular info but it went very well apparently.

The CEO said

“I don’t feel any reservation at all about the Boeing Company’s commitment to safety. I know they’ve been doing flight tests this week. I heard from our VP of safety that those flight test went really, really well … so I think our team is satisfied with the safety of the MAX.”
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:48 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/alaska-airlines-boeing-737-max-commitment/

Alaska Air CEO sat down with aviation week for an interview.

We now have the first insight into how the tests went. Not granular info but it went very well apparently.

The CEO said

“I don’t feel any reservation at all about the Boeing Company’s commitment to safety. I know they’ve been doing flight tests this week. I heard from our VP of safety that those flight test went really, really well … so I think our team is satisfied with the safety of the MAX.”

The article correctly points out a few things:
1. The plane has been through the wringer (American expression for painful scrutiny).
2. It will take until September or so to certify the plane
3. "The latest indication from the FAA is that it could take until mid-September to certify the type. When it does, there’s going to be a swift flurry of deliveries to customers, as Boeing works to clear the several hundred completed planes it has parked around its sites. "

It will be a fast pace to deliver. I would love to know the changes in the bill of materials and labor hours required to bring each MAX up to certification.

Lightsaber
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:09 pm

I know we are still a long ways out. But. I wonder what all those guys that were so sure this plane will never fly again, I wonder how they feel now.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:21 pm

Noshow wrote:
FAA had been almost paralyzed by the political quarrels in DC. Politics interfered with FAA financing and "industry support" as a political requirement for FAA's certification work. Now that this is solved on the higher DC levels FAA looks to be back in the business to me. The root causes are/were higher level problems in DC.


Oh, that makes it alright then. World over, the aviation authorities should have a graph on the wall, with schedules of FAA trustworthiness -- between May 1 and September 30, Year ABCD, FAA was a reasonably well-run organization, you take them at their word. October 1 to December 31 -- you double-check their paperwork, as they were not. Same for EASA, same for CAAC. Right?
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:29 pm

FAA has a new leadership, Congress woke up, Boeing as well. Plus other authorities will carefully monitor what is going on and test themselves before they agree to anything. Pilots are informed and aware now and will receive extra training.
This is why I feel confident with the way this moves on - possibly.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:32 pm

Let's wait on the budget cycle to see the funding and priorities for the FAA, only then will we know the direction that the congress is taking, more FAA personnel or more stringent oversight rules and regulations for the OEM staff who do work for the regulators. I suspect to be politically correct, they will try to implement the adjustments across more industries, that is, if they do something.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:46 pm

This appears to be good news for Boeing. I use appears since we really don’t know yet. If approved, it’s going to be the safest 737 in the sky. I will probably be more afraid to catch COVID than to fly on one.
 
AndoAv8R
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:51 pm

So maybe this has been covered, but I assume the 7Max being used has 2 AOA's on it? Will part of the requirement be to retrofit all Max's with 2 of them or are they correcting the software so you can get by with only one?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:56 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
So maybe this has been covered, but I assume the 7Max being used has 2 AOA's on it? Will part of the requirement be to retrofit all Max's with 2 of them or are they correcting the software so you can get by with only one?

MAX7 which they flown had 2 AoA sensors - like every other 737 since first flight in 1967.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:56 pm

Tentatively good news, congrats to all involved! But still some road ahead before final success can be announced. Keep working diligently rather than celebrate too early.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:02 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
So maybe this has been covered, but I assume the 7Max being used has 2 AOA's on it? Will part of the requirement be to retrofit all Max's with 2 of them or are they correcting the software so you can get by with only one?


I seem to recall that two AoA sensors will now be "standard equipment", but EASA wants a third - either physical or a synthetic one.
 
BowlingShoeDC9
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:25 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
So maybe this has been covered, but I assume the 7Max being used has 2 AOA's on it? Will part of the requirement be to retrofit all Max's with 2 of them or are they correcting the software so you can get by with only one?



From what I read in a Seattle Times article, they are just going to disable MCAS in the event of an AoA sensor disagreement The plane already had 2 AoA sensors, but it only used one of them on any given flight for MCAS. According to the article that change will likely require some additional sim training for MAX pilots.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -controls/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:44 pm

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
No mention of FAA's botched response to the first accident and rubber stamping Boeing's less than perfect procedures for dealing with MCAS rather than doing a full investigation that might have avoided the second accident.

I can't help but think part of this was because the FAA and Boeing were of the initial opinion the crash had to have been due to either poor crew training or poor maintenance at Lion Air, said thinking influenced by their overall safety record.

The general opinion of Ethiopian as an operator was much better so when they lost a bird under what seemed at the time to be similar circumstances, that is when everyone really stood up and took notice and started paying real attention.

True, but one would think the purpose of a retrospective report would be to ask "why did we form the initial opinion the crash had to have been due to either poor crew training or poor maintenance at Lion Air, and why didn't we step back look at the entire situation from first principles?".

In retrospect there is a lot of dodgy behavior during the time frame between the two accidents. We know Boeing was working on software changes to MCAS and was said to be weeks way from delivering a fix when the second accident happened. This means someone with Boeing had to understand the flight control computer was relying on a single AoA sensor and thus the whole safety assessment for the MAX was invalid and thus the certification of the MAX was invalid and the plane should have been grounded.

It seems FAA was in the "if it's good enough for Boeing it's good enough for us" mode and did not have its own view on the subject. This report should have investigated this aspect and should have come up with recommendations so it never happens again. Instead the report seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie.

Someone at FAA and/or Boeing had to look at the first radar data from Indonesia and say "how could that sawtooth pattern happen?". FAA claims it did not know the full extent of MCAS operation, but still should have had enough knowledge to realize it could be the root cause. Someone within Boeing knew it was the root cause and was working on software fixes for it before the second crash, but the realization of what that meant for the airplane either wasn't understood, or was understood and was suppressed. One would think this kind of report would get to the bottom of this, but it did not.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
It seems FAA was in the "if it's good enough for Boeing it's good enough for us" mode and did not have its own view on the subject. This report should have investigated this aspect and should have come up with recommendations so it never happens again. Instead the report seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie.

Someone at FAA and/or Boeing had to look at the first radar data from Indonesia and say "how could that sawtooth pattern happen?". FAA claims it did not know the full extent of MCAS operation, but still should have had enough knowledge to realize it could be the root cause. Someone within Boeing knew it was the root cause and was working on software fixes for it before the second crash, but the realization of what that meant for the airplane either wasn't understood, or was understood and was suppressed. One would think this kind of report would get to the bottom of this, but it did not.


And I can understand "trust Boeing" approach. After all, certification is just a checkout against a closed list of requirements. If Boeing says they meet each line (with some documented exceptions) - should FAA redo design in shadow mode from scratch?
As for after JT crash... MCAS information became public within a month, if not sooner; it quickly became the focus. But neither FAA nor Boeing did the analysis at that point - and that is a black mark which would haunt Boeing reputation for decades to come. And it is yet to be seen how Boeing would be handling any future crashes before declaring that company attitude did change.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:36 pm

So you want them to fly around even after completing all tests just for show? I don't think that's a good use of public funds.


No, I'm just surprised that only 3 flights were considered necessary. And no, neither I nor anyone expects flights to be done for show. Please, don't try to put words in my mouth - you aren't good at it. Given Boeing's history with the MAX and its initial certification, and Boeing's cozy relationship with the FAA, one might have expected more flights, perhaps with more than just the MAX 7 variant, given that it was the MAX 8 that was involved in the two crashes.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It will be a fast pace to deliver. r


Unless more cancellations follow. Boeing will have several NTU aircraft that will have to be reworked if they find another customer.
Good moaning!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
So you want them to fly around even after completing all tests just for show? I don't think that's a good use of public funds.


No, I'm just surprised that only 3 flights were considered necessary. And no, neither I nor anyone expects flights to be done for show. Please, don't try to put words in my mouth - you aren't good at it. Given Boeing's history with the MAX and its initial certification, and Boeing's cozy relationship with the FAA, one might have expected more flights, perhaps with more than just the MAX 7 variant, given that it was the MAX 8 that was involved in the two crashes.


I can understand your concern about the FAA/Boeing relationship as it seems to be a root of the MAX debacle, but I don't think it makes all the existing certification processes bad.

If a flight test plan have been established and agreed to demonstrate compliance to whatever FAA wanted, and it took only 3 flight to complete it I'm not sure what purpose would have served to do more flights or use other variant.
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planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:24 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
So you want them to fly around even after completing all tests just for show? I don't think that's a good use of public funds.


No, I'm just surprised that only 3 flights were considered necessary. And no, neither I nor anyone expects flights to be done for show. Please, don't try to put words in my mouth - you aren't good at it. Given Boeing's history with the MAX and its initial certification, and Boeing's cozy relationship with the FAA, one might have expected more flights, perhaps with more than just the MAX 7 variant, given that it was the MAX 8 that was involved in the two crashes.


The flight tests are just to gather data that proves simulations are accurate and that the aircraft behaves as expected. Testing the actual MCAS software behavior can be done and has been done extensively in an engineering simulator. The FCC won't do anything different in the air then it does on the bench when fed the same inputs.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:01 pm

The mischief of 100% safe was in part in play here. Sutter, Boeing, FAA and later other certifying agencies looked at all of this from a statistical vista. That brought us to the current era of very safe planes. The MAX needs to be as safe as other recent NG models. Adding safety beyond that with untested gadgets and gizmos was in part what went wrong. Every complex addition creates the possibility of safety gone wrong.

My RAV4 with the latest greatest safety features has a horrible flaw. I have notified both the Toyota dealer and the NTSB, thus far no reply from either.
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dauntlesspdx
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm

Is there a list of the changes each Max will require before certification?

From what I have heard:

- Adding a redundant sensor
- MCAS software update
- Wiring fix (based on another problem found during the review)

Anything else?
Not a pilot just an aviation geek.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:24 pm

dauntlesspdx wrote:
Is there a list of the changes each Max will require before certification?

From what I have heard:

- Adding a redundant sensor
- MCAS software update
- Wiring fix (based on another problem found during the review)

Anything else?

The "redundant sensor" i.e. third source for AoA is said to be a post-RTS requirement. I have read some people say it must be done in one year after RTS, and another that says it must be done before MAX-10 is certified. The dates seem to be arbitrary.

Other than the wiring fix, I know of no other physical changes needed for RTS, other than of course doing all the routine maintenance needed to deal with the grounding period. Also FAA has said it will need to inspect each airplane before RTS so that may cause some delays.
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uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:04 pm

Once (If) deliveries restart, the next problem is that few airlines are in a position to pay for or use said new airplanes.

Airlines with the largest MAX orders are probably in the weakest position to finance them in great numbers, at least for the next couple of years.

Expect 50% of the built frames to struggle to get finance in place, prior to delivery.
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TaromA380
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:05 pm

When should happen the long-awaited Max flight with Dickson on board ?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:45 pm

TaromA380 wrote:
When should happen the long-awaited Max flight with Dickson on board ?

I would expect that to be a big PR event with Dickson landing the plane and proceeding to signing last page of the paperwork in front of the camera. Mid-september if everything goes smoothly.
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:32 am

uta999 wrote:
Once (If) deliveries restart, the next problem is that few airlines are in a position to pay for or use said new airplanes.

Airlines with the largest MAX orders are probably in the weakest position to finance them in great numbers, at least for the next couple of years.

Expect 50% of the built frames to struggle to get finance in place, prior to delivery.


But, if Boeing concentrate on frames already delivered instead of new builds off the line, then the cost is a lot less for the airlines and that in turn gives a bit of time for the airlines to recover surely?
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:34 am

How does autopilot fit into the MCAS scenario (besides the fact that MCAS should be disabled if not in manual mode)? If autopilot is automatically disabled due to airspeed disagree, does that complicate the solution? Remember we're still using the antiquated FCC hardware in the Max. If there is another Max nose dive into ground, will we be okay to blame it on pilot error, lack of sim time, poor maintenance, or whatever? I predict another crash within 12 mos of RTS.
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sgbroimp
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:00 pm

MrBretz wrote:
This appears to be good news for Boeing. I use appears since we really don’t know yet. If approved, it’s going to be the safest 737 in the sky. I will probably be more afraid to catch COVID than to fly on one.


Yep; might even be fool proof enough for those guys with phone licenses. (!!!!!)
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:11 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
How does autopilot fit into the MCAS scenario (besides the fact that MCAS should be disabled if not in manual mode)? If autopilot is automatically disabled due to airspeed disagree, does that complicate the solution? Remember we're still using the antiquated FCC hardware in the Max. If there is another Max nose dive into ground, will we be okay to blame it on pilot error, lack of sim time, poor maintenance, or whatever? I predict another crash within 12 mos of RTS.


You're very pessimistic with your predictions. With the number of MAXes in the air, and given they are fairly new, it would be a few years before a crash at a regular rates. Any crash for MAX-specific reasons would be a fatal blow for Boeing
As for autopilot - I suspect there was some tweaking of control coefficients, and that's it. Remember - stick force is simulated in 737, and the root cause problem resolved by MCAS is an incorrect simulation, leading to instability in a loop which includes pilot's actions. Autopilot loop shouldn't be affected.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:19 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
This appears to be good news for Boeing. I use appears since we really don’t know yet. If approved, it’s going to be the safest 737 in the sky. I will probably be more afraid to catch COVID than to fly on one.


Yep; might even be fool proof enough for those guys with phone licenses. (!!!!!)

Yeah, but PIA managed to find fools good enough to crash a full FBW.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:32 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
This appears to be good news for Boeing. I use appears since we really don’t know yet. If approved, it’s going to be the safest 737 in the sky. I will probably be more afraid to catch COVID than to fly on one.


Yep; might even be fool proof enough for those guys with phone licenses. (!!!!!)

Great comment and a great demonstration. it should be phonY.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phony
And that is the way engineers with genuine diplomas ended up designing MAX: even genuine diploma, be it engineering, high school or anything else, doesn't guarantee any skills these days..
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:36 am

Some further articles on the max and possible RTS. Motley Fool is rather critical and paints a grim picture for the months/years ahead. I find the choice of words for the title of the article rather fitting to says the least.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/ ... -what.aspx

The Boeing 737 MAX Completes Flight Tests: So What?
The 737 MAX is finally close to being cleared for a return to commercial service. It's too bad demand has evaporated.

Recertification won't mark the end of the 737 MAX grounding saga, though. International regulators -- particularly in Europe -- are poised to demand additional modifications to the 737 MAX's safety systems by the end of next year. These changes (and retrofits for aircraft that have already been produced) will add costs for Boeing, denting future profits. Pilots will also need additional simulator training to fly the 737 MAX going forward, which could trigger payments by Boeing to airline customers to cover the related cost.


A plane without a market
Despite the 737 MAX's initial design flaws and the resulting crashes, the aircraft was in high demand prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. Between the strength of global air travel demand and production constraints at Airbus, canceling 737 MAX orders wasn't a realistic option for most of Boeing's customers. Today, the situation is much different. Air travel remains far below 2019 levels, and industry insiders believe it will take several years for demand to recover fully. As a result, airlines are trying to defer or cancel as many aircraft deliveries as possible. Due to the extensive delivery delays for 737 MAX jets originally scheduled to be handed over in 2019 and 2020, customers in many cases have the right to cancel some of their orders.

Grim times ahead
In the first 12 months after the 737 MAX grounding last March, Boeing was able to partially offset cash burn from that part of its business with profits from its wide-body jet programs and its services business. But in the current environment, those sources of cash are drying up, too. Airlines are retiring older jets rather than spending money on Boeing services offerings that could extend those planes' useful lives. Simultaneously, wide-body demand has plummeted, as international travel is likely to be one of the slowest parts of the aviation market to recover.

For example, Boeing is in the midst of slashing 787 production by half (from 14 per month to seven per month). Yet even that production rate may be too ambitious. Whereas Boeing delivered 29 787 Dreamliners in the first quarter, it appears to have delivered just seven in the second quarter. Furthermore, key customers like Qatar Airways -- which accounts for 9% of Boeing's wide-body backlog -- are demanding multiyear order deferrals.

Aircraft demand will recover eventually. That said, "eventually" could be many years away. In the meantime, Boeing has taken on tens of billions of dollars of debt and is burning through cash at a frightening pace. Investors would be wise to avoid the stock.



And even though many many people on a.net still believe that everyone will forget about the issues and happily fly on the max, why are airlines offering free changes? Because in reality people are still scared of the plane I guess?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/737-max-f ... t-changes/

As The New York Times reports, United reaffirmed its previous commitment to rebook passengers scheduled to fly the MAX free of charge, once it returns to service. “If people need any kind of adjustments, we will absolutely rebook them,” United’s former CEO Oscar Munoz stated in 2019. While Scott Kirby has since taken the reins as CEO, a United Airlines spokesperson confirmed the offer still stands, stating:

"Nothing is more important to United than the safety of our customers and employees. Once regulators have reached an independent conclusion about the safety of the MAX, we’ll be prepared to explain to our customers and employees how our MAX fleet will be put back into service and why we have the highest confidence that it is safe to do so. As part of our ongoing commitment to our customers, we will be transparent – and communicate in advance – with our customers who are booked to fly on a MAX aircraft, will rebook those who do not want to fly on a MAX at no charge."

American Airlines, another large 737 MAX operator, confirmed similar intentions, with a spokesperson stating, “Even though we don’t know when the MAX will reenter revenue service, we have always planned to offer flexibility to customers who are concerned about flying on the MAX.”

A Southwest Airlines spokesperson confirmed that airline will also accommodate free changes for customers who don’t feel comfortable flying the MAX, so uneasy passengers will have flexibility when flying all three U.S.-based 737 MAX operators, once the plane does eventually return to the skies.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2680
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:54 am

Avolon has cancelled 27 more 737 MAXs on top of the 75 cancelled earlier this year.

https://www.avolon.aero/newsroom-and-th ... ter-update
 
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par13del
Posts: 10263
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:23 pm

oschkosch wrote:
And even though many many people on a.net still believe that everyone will forget about the issues and happily fly on the max, why are airlines offering free changes? Because in reality people are still scared of the plane I guess?

Well these are the same people who at the height of the pandemic said that it was in their best interest to leave middle seats open and attempt to maintain social distancing in their a/c, no thought of using wide body a/c with more physical seats versus the narrow body a/c, so maybe the reason why they are all now pushing to sell all seats is because the pandemic is over and there is no fear of catching the virus onboard their a/c because they sanitize them daily and have excellent filters?
I admit to not being in PR, but I have been around a long time to see how the game is played,I could be wrong, but my bet is tilting to my side.
 
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InsideMan
Posts: 352
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:33 pm

par13del wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
And even though many many people on a.net still believe that everyone will forget about the issues and happily fly on the max, why are airlines offering free changes? Because in reality people are still scared of the plane I guess?

Well these are the same people who at the height of the pandemic said that it was in their best interest to leave middle seats open and attempt to maintain social distancing in their a/c, no thought of using wide body a/c with more physical seats versus the narrow body a/c, so maybe the reason why they are all now pushing to sell all seats is because the pandemic is over and there is no fear of catching the virus onboard their a/c because they sanitize them daily and have excellent filters?
I admit to not being in PR, but I have been around a long time to see how the game is played,I could be wrong, but my bet is tilting to my side.


The pandemic is over? :relieved:
 
elbandgeek
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:20 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Motley Fool is rather critical and paints a grim picture


I wouldn't put much stock in anything they say, they're a clickbait farm at best and just making stuff up at worst.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27094
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:58 pm

oschkosch wrote:
And even though many many people on a.net still believe that everyone will forget about the issues and happily fly on the max, why are airlines offering free changes? Because in reality people are still scared of the plane I guess?


This is almost certainly an extension of the current free changes being offered due to COVID-19 and I would not be surprised if they soon discontinue to offer this on MAX-operated flights once they stop offering it on any flight, regardless of metal.

That being said, I am quite confident they expect very few people to actually take them up on the offer because they know most people will have no clue what metal is operating on their flight and for those who do know it will be operated with a MAX, they are probably already effectively locked-in to that flight for whatever reason(s) so they will just "roll the dice" and fly.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:03 pm

Pretend that the MAX would be able to receive its cert in the next few weeks.
Should we move to a bigger problem for Boeing: what should Boe do to regain the trust of the whole world on this model.

You know, it is so easy to find a post on Facebook/Twitter says that someone would not board on any MAX.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:12 pm

Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:31 pm

par13del wrote:
Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....

True. You have a point here. I’ll say that if their issue is fly by wire then they shouldn’t get on an NG either. But Ryanair is too cheap for some to overlook LOL
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27094
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:35 pm

par13del wrote:
A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


Unfortunately, we have proof enough that FBW and Envelope Protection can't always save a plane from poor piloting - AF296, AF447, OZ214, X4888T, etc.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm

par13del wrote:
Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


And I’m sure Lion Air will be the one again...
 
kalvado
Posts: 2733
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:18 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
par13del wrote:
Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


And I’m sure Lion Air will be the one again...

And everyone will disregard it.
And then brakes would fail again and a full-scale collision with hundreds casualties occur
And then a major problem with the design would be discovered
... been there, seen that.
 
HII
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:03 pm

par13del wrote:
Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


Does the average passenger even know what FBW is and which aircraft have them? These are the same pax that happily got on an AA or DL MD-80, or even a 1978 built DC-9 only a few years ago.
 
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par13del
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:24 pm

HII wrote:
par13del wrote:
Trust in the MAX is temporary at best until there is another incident, even if just a runway excursion with no fatalities.
The a/c was initially designed in the 19060's and it makes no difference how advanced the wings, engines or electronics are, folks will still say it is not FBW and that will be the end of the discussion. A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


Does the average passenger even know what FBW is and which aircraft have them? These are the same pax that happily got on an AA or DL MD-80, or even a 1978 built DC-9 only a few years ago.

Does not make a difference if they do or not, whenever something happens, we turn to the experts be they talking heads or otherwise, take a look at the PIA crash, no one has even dared to suggest (exaggeration) that there was something wrong with the a/c, it was immediately pilot error. Now if it had been a Boeing, those speaking ill of the dead would be been drawn and quartered.
Like it or not, it is what it is, now if Boeing were to build a new a/c with FBW and call it 737-Super the threads would get very interesting.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10263
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:26 pm

Stitch wrote:
par13del wrote:
A lot of folks are now convinced that if it ain't FBW its not safe, not much for building pilot confidence, but, it is what it is....


Unfortunately, we have proof enough that FBW and Envelope Protection can't always save a plane from poor piloting - AF296, AF447, OZ214, X4888T, etc.

...which get's lost in the shuffle when talking about an a/c designed before we were born, has been grandfathered countless times and is not as safe as the NG which it replaces.
Yeah, I see what I did there....
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