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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:36 pm

From the news thread:

Reuters: Exclusive: FAA employees report industry pressure, question agency safety push in survey says:

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) safety employees reported facing “strong” external pressure from industry and raised alarms the agency does not always prioritize air safety, according to an independent survey seen by Reuters on Friday.
...
The report found employees believe aviation safety leaders “painted ‘too rosy of a picture’” after the 737 MAX crashes “and did not acknowledge the needed changes to FAA safety-related policies and processes.”

The survey, turned over to Congress on Friday, found that many aviation safety employees believe that “senior leaders are overly concerned with achieving the business-oriented outcomes of industry stakeholders and are not held accountable for safety-related decisions.”

Reading the article makes it clear that "industry" refers to Boeing.

One part I found troubling:

“Many reported that industry will escalate issues to senior leadership and/or Congress if FAA employees are perceived as ‘getting in their way,” which directly leads to decisions that are friendlier to industry (i.e., to help meet timelines and manage costs of industry applicants and operators),” the survey added.

And tucked in one thing I had not seen coverage of:

The FAA on Wednesday proposed fining Boeing $1.25 million after the agency alleged Boeing exerted undue pressure on workers who handle FAA safety oversight work.

Hmm, $1.25M seems like a lot but apparently MCAS has put a $20B hole in Boeing's books so it won't be noticed, IMO.

Why isn't FAA naming names of who applied the pressure?

FAA has had the results of this survey for a while, and Congress had to ask FAA to provide a copy.

Now Congress has a copy, but it's a hot potato, because it points the finger back at Congress.

FAA employees allege that Boeing uses Congress to pressure FAA, presumably to hit schedule dates and/or to delegate back to Boeing when they can't.

Weren't we supposed to have a bill in Congress by now? I don't recall hearing of anything getting out of committee.

Given Congress requested this info from FAA, what were they expecting to get, and what were they expecting to do with the results?

Was this just another political grandstanding opportunity?

Dickson seems to be saying "I'm shocked, shocked that this activity is occurring at my establishment!"

That's why there's always a fall guy, it lets the new guy say he's shocked.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:49 pm

A few more selected quotes:

The safety culture survey, conducted in late 2019 and in focus groups in early 2020, said employees and managers reported “external pressure from industry is strong and is impacting” the safety culture. “They shared that there is an unwritten code to be more ‘liberal-minded’ (versus conservative) when assessing safety risks, and there is pressure to find win-win solutions that benefit industry,” the survey found.

This reads as if FAA employees might actually be coaching Boeing employees on how to use various "jedi mind tricks" to achieve "win-win" solutions.

I say this because in the end Boeing claimed MCAS on 787 was similar to MCAS on 767 to avoid a vigorous review of MCAS on 737, yet it's pretty clear there isn't much similarity given the KC46 used multiple AoA sources.

The survey said FAA employees’ perception was that “no one at FAA has taken responsibility or been held accountable for” the 737 MAX.

True, that. Victory has many fathers, defeat has none.

The Justice Department has an ongoing criminal investigation into the MAX.

You don't say...
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
From the news thread:

Reuters: Exclusive: FAA employees report industry pressure, question agency safety push in survey says:

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) safety employees reported facing “strong” external pressure from industry and raised alarms the agency does not always prioritize air safety, according to an independent survey seen by Reuters on Friday.
...
The report found employees believe aviation safety leaders “painted ‘too rosy of a picture’” after the 737 MAX crashes “and did not acknowledge the needed changes to FAA safety-related policies and processes.”

The survey, turned over to Congress on Friday, found that many aviation safety employees believe that “senior leaders are overly concerned with achieving the business-oriented outcomes of industry stakeholders and are not held accountable for safety-related decisions.”

Reading the article makes it clear that "industry" refers to Boeing.

One part I found troubling:

“Many reported that industry will escalate issues to senior leadership and/or Congress if FAA employees are perceived as ‘getting in their way,” which directly leads to decisions that are friendlier to industry (i.e., to help meet timelines and manage costs of industry applicants and operators),” the survey added.

And tucked in one thing I had not seen coverage of:

The FAA on Wednesday proposed fining Boeing $1.25 million after the agency alleged Boeing exerted undue pressure on workers who handle FAA safety oversight work.

Hmm, $1.25M seems like a lot but apparently MCAS has put a $20B hole in Boeing's books so it won't be noticed, IMO.

Why isn't FAA naming names of who applied the pressure?

FAA has had the results of this survey for a while, and Congress had to ask FAA to provide a copy.

Now Congress has a copy, but it's a hot potato, because it points the finger back at Congress.

FAA employees allege that Boeing uses Congress to pressure FAA, presumably to hit schedule dates and/or to delegate back to Boeing when they can't.

Weren't we supposed to have a bill in Congress by now? I don't recall hearing of anything getting out of committee.

Given Congress requested this info from FAA, what were they expecting to get, and what were they expecting to do with the results?

Was this just another political grandstanding opportunity?

Dickson seems to be saying "I'm shocked, shocked that this activity is occurring at my establishment!"

That's why there's always a fall guy, it lets the new guy say he's shocked.

This one really got me scratching head.
One thing I know that there is a lot of red tape in US regulations - and couple layers of tape can be removed without negativeeffect on anything (I would expect some improvements(
On the other hand, Boeing should be patient and compliant these days.
Yet I wouldn't be surprised if some in FAA would love to go by the book, down to the letter and shape of the letter simply to protect themselves - leading to effectively a work-to-the-rule strike.
But it is also obvious that Boeing is in dire straights, with what was supposed to be a cash cow becoming a bottomless money pit - and virus is an icing on their cake. 777X delays do not help as well.

So I would really love to see the substance of the issue before blaming anyone
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:21 pm

keesje wrote:
It seem the back for the 737MAX is 3500 at this stage, while the NEO/A220 backlog more then 6700.

sources: https://www.aerotime.aero/rytis.beresne ... ax-backlog, https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

That's nearly double.

If we see further airlines dropping their 737MAX orders, it seems Boeing has little options but working on something new.
Of course that will hurt the 737 backlog. But if its already belly up, that is less of a concern.


I see Boeing and the FAA certifying the Max updates for the optics aspect, and then Boeing, if they aren't already, pursuing a clean sheet design that leapfrog's the latest and greatest out there. Certainly the commercial aerospace industry is in a downturn for the foreseeable future, and that's beyond a SARS-nCov2 vaccine, since the economic repercussions will take a decade or more to recover.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:30 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
I see Boeing and the FAA certifying the Max updates for the optics aspect, and then Boeing, if they aren't already, pursuing a clean sheet design that leapfrog's the latest and greatest out there.

With what money?

Before COVID19, MAX made a $20B hole in the balance sheet. With COVID19, the 787 cash cow is cut to 6/month and whatever revenue 77X could provide is being pushed out into 2022. Engine makers and supply chain vendors are going to be in no mood to spend on a new clean sheet any time soon. Cost to certify 77x, MAX-7 and MAX-10 are also in the picture.

Also, it'll be interesting to see how much scrutiny the next clean sheet gets from FAA. I would suspect they will not be as willing to delegate and will push back hard on Boeing pressure to work to a time line Boeing sets.
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sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
I see Boeing and the FAA certifying the Max updates for the optics aspect, and then Boeing, if they aren't already, pursuing a clean sheet design that leapfrog's the latest and greatest out there.

With what money?

Before COVID19, MAX made a $20B hole in the balance sheet. With COVID19, the 787 cash cow is cut to 6/month and whatever revenue 77X could provide is being pushed out into 2022. Engine makers and supply chain vendors are going to be in no mood to spend on a new clean sheet any time soon. Cost to certify 77x, MAX-7 and MAX-10 are also in the picture.

Also, it'll be interesting to see how much scrutiny the next clean sheet gets from FAA. I would suspect they will not be as willing to delegate and will push back hard on Boeing pressure to work to a time line Boeing sets.


A clean sheet design is easier to work with, because you're starting off with the latest and greatest technology. Risk mitigation goes out the window.

Money? They're too big to fail, as evidenced by the $60B bailout they were offered earlier this year.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:11 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
A clean sheet design is easier to work with, because you're starting off with the latest and greatest technology. Risk mitigation goes out the window.

Throwing risk mitigation out the window doesn't mean it won't bite you in the back side.

Witness the 787 program, Boeing's previous clean sheet.

sgrow787 wrote:
Money? They're too big to fail, as evidenced by the $60B bailout they were offered earlier this year.

Offered yet not accepted ( ref: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... 063153001/ )
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StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:27 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
Risk mitigation goes out the window.


The design of a plane is all about design compromises and risk mitigation. Risk mitigation never goes out the window!
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:30 pm

StTim wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Risk mitigation goes out the window.


The design of a plane is all about design compromises and risk mitigation. Risk mitigation never goes out the window!


Comparatively speaking it does.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
gloom
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:53 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Don't know if there will be a new name but calling it the 737-8 can lead to confusion with the regular 737-8.


What is a regular 737-8?

Most people here say it's possible to misread MAX to NG and NG to MAX. Well, sure enough they begin the same, but there are two more zeroes on NG. It's 737-8 vs 737-800.
For me, it's easily recognizable. I won't even have to read the numbers to recognize longer or shorter number.

Cheers,
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:22 pm

According to Bloomberg, Boeing looking into synthetic airspeed for the Max
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm

astuteman wrote:
Back in March, did anyone genuinely think that the MAX would be on the ground for the neck end of 21 months?

I wouldn't wish Covid19 on anyone, but it couldn't have happened at a better time for the MAX.
A 21 month grounding with the airline industry in full chat and the NEO coming off the lines at 60+ per month would have been carnage

Rgds

You don’t think that the COVID situation hasn’t delayed the MAX RTS? There is also the fact that MAX orders are at this point the easiest in the entire industry to cancel, and hence far more of them have been canceled than any others. It’s a two edged sword. Everybody is getting hurt, but I suspect in terms of monetary damage Boeing is getting hurt worse than Airbus. But from what I have seen they are in better shape to withstand it.
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VV
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:35 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
According to Bloomberg, Boeing looking into synthetic airspeed for the Max


What the hell?
This is a fake news.

The synthetic airspeed needs angle of attack information. Otherwise you display the GPS (ground speed).
It is done on the 787.

In addition the Ethiopian pilot flew beyond VMO/MMO. It was not an issue with air speed indication.

I do not think Bloomberg published such a rubbish article.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:37 pm

VV wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
According to Bloomberg, Boeing looking into synthetic airspeed for the Max


What the hell?
This is a fake news.

The synthetic airspeed needs angle of attack information. Otherwise you display the GPS (ground speed).
It is done on the 787.

In addition the Ethiopian pilot flew beyond VMO/MMO. It was not an issue with air speed indication.

I do not think Bloomberg published such a rubbish article.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nd=premium
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:52 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:

Very interesting yet very confusing article.

All it says is Boeing "is preparing" such a system, but doesn't seem to say they are committed to it, as far as I can tell.

It says the system will take two years or more to get right, yet it says a similar system is already flying on 787.

It does sound like a good advancement, in that this third source would be able to work when external vanes are iced up.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:12 pm

Isn't using synthetic air data one of the two main options Boeing was looking at, the other being a third AoA sensor (which is favored by EASA).

As for referring to the MAX family members by their actual model number (737-7, -8, -9, -10), isn't that standard practice after awhile? I mean Boeing doesn't refer to the NGs as NGs - they're referred to by their specific model numbers (-800, -900ER, etc.).
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:

Very interesting yet very confusing article.

All it says is Boeing "is preparing" such a system, but doesn't seem to say they are committed to it, as far as I can tell.

It says the system will take two years or more to get right, yet it says a similar system is already flying on 787.

It does sound like a good advancement, in that this third source would be able to work when external vanes are iced up.


If it takes two years, will the -10 be certified in two years as it was or is expected that a third speed measurement (or synthetic generated input) is needed before the -10 can be certified.

The first MAX 10, the final and largest model in the MAX jet family, rolled out last November and its delayed first flight is expected later this year, which would typically imply certification late in 2021.

If the system design changes are required to be on the MAX 10 from the moment it enters service, that might further delay the schedule for the MAX 10.


Source: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/foreign-regulators-demand-substantial-new-changes-to-boeing-737-max-flight-controls/

I know it is not yet required but I think it will be going that way, because then Boeing can certify everything in one go and does not have to retrofit more stuff on even more aircraft.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:42 pm

VV wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
According to Bloomberg, Boeing looking into synthetic airspeed for the Max


What the hell?
This is a fake news.

The synthetic airspeed needs angle of attack information. Otherwise you display the GPS (ground speed).
It is done on the 787.

In addition the Ethiopian pilot flew beyond VMO/MMO. It was not an issue with air speed indication.

I do not think Bloomberg published such a rubbish article.

Not fake news, old news. It has already been reported a couple months ago that EASA wanted 3 sensors, and Boeing was looking at either synthetic as on the 787 or additional hardware. As Boeing has probably not decided on nor announced its preferred solution since they are allowed RTS while resolving that issue, the journalist is probably just filling in the blanks to get a more readable / clickable article.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:51 pm

FluidFlow wrote:

All it says is Boeing "is preparing" such a system, but doesn't seem to say they are committed to it, as far as I can tell.

It says the system will take two years or more to get right, yet it says a similar system is already flying on 787.

My initial thought from earlier in the year was that the 2 years was the time EASA were allowing the MAX to RTS while Boeing decided on and implemented the 3 sensor solution, whether synthetic or hardware, at the time there was a lively debate on which was easier, I was on the hardware side, and since they have committed to resolving wire bundle issues, I am still convinced that is the best route.
If the larger version of the MAX cannot be certified without it and they are just about ready to commence flight test, hardware installation may be simplier.
Unfortunately, the elephant in the room are the 400+ MAX a/c already produced, how much more expensive is it to have new hardware installed, I suspect that as in all things, the money will be the deciding factor.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:08 pm

par13del wrote:
Unfortunately, the elephant in the room are the 400+ MAX a/c already produced, how much more expensive is it to have new hardware installed, I suspect that as in all things, the money will be the deciding factor.

I suspect Boeing will push the cost down the road as far as possible, so I bet those 400 will be delivered before the 3rd AoA issue is resolved and Boeing will push to get the regulators to allow them to refit the existing MAXes at their next heavy maintenance visit, which I think regulators will allow.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:38 pm

par13del wrote:
My initial thought from earlier in the year was that the 2 years was the time EASA were allowing the MAX to RTS while Boeing decided on and implemented the 3 sensor solution, whether synthetic or hardware, at the time there was a lively debate on which was easier, I was on the hardware side, and since they have committed to resolving wire bundle issues, I am still convinced that is the best route.
If the larger version of the MAX cannot be certified without it and they are just about ready to commence flight test, hardware installation may be simplier.
Unfortunately, the elephant in the room are the 400+ MAX a/c already produced, how much more expensive is it to have new hardware installed, I suspect that as in all things, the money will be the deciding factor.


If EASA indeed wants such a system (in whichever form) within two years, then the usual course of action would be to issue an AD to such extent.
Which would also mean that any following model not yet on that Type Certificate, would be unlikely to be certified without that action (AD) completed and implemented; EASA (and FAA for that matter) would be rather reluctant to grant Type Certification (or STC) with outstanding AD against it.
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TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:22 pm

The certification aircraft flew last Friday ahead of Transport Canada upcoming flights this week...first time it flew since the FAA did their checks last month.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:20 pm

VV wrote:
[...]
The synthetic airspeed needs angle of attack information. Otherwise you display the GPS (ground speed).
It is done on the 787.
[...]

No, it will reconstruct the angle of attack for you.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:02 pm

Ok I'm just a retired rampie but have read Flying magazine for 50 years plus and taken lessons and been an AV geek for about 60 years.
Having read in Flying magazine about 5 years ago in a Peter Garrison article about new AOA instruments for light and experimental planes. Like this

AOA PRO SYSTEM ALUMINUM WING WITH A & B KIT
https://m.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inp ... uminum.php

It costs like $2000. Does not need external vanes or pitot tubes. Could not this be put up on the glare shield and act as a 3rd AOA indicator. To be used only as a backup to prove which prime AOA indicator is right.

Just think of past crashes this could have helped on. Of course the Max's but also AF over the Atlantic and the 757 in South America that took off towards the ocean at night with the static vents taped over.

I understand the Max's MCAS took control over from the pilots and they couldn't shut it off but at least they could have compared AOA sensors and figured out which one was erroneous.

Why does it all have to be tied into 1 system. Let the pilots make the decision what info is right and what to turn off.

Guess trying to keep things simple and letting pilots fly is too old fashioned of an idea
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JonesNL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:51 am

Exrampieyyz wrote:
....

I understand the Max's MCAS took control over from the pilots and they couldn't shut it off but at least they could have compared AOA sensors and figured out which one was erroneous.

Why does it all have to be tied into 1 system. Let the pilots make the decision what info is right and what to turn off.

Guess trying to keep things simple and letting pilots fly is too old fashioned of an idea


Well, even Boeing quotes that 80% or more of the crashes are pilot errors. You don't need to be an expert to realize that less work for pilots means less crashes.
 
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ADent
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:49 am

PW100 wrote:

If EASA indeed wants such a system (in whichever form) within two years, then the usual course of action would be to issue an AD to such extent.

It was reported that EASA wants a third AOA sensor (physical or virtual) and would agree to RTS w/o it. But would require the 737-10MAX to have it at certification.

The Canadians wanted a manual stick shaker cut out too.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:22 am

Exrampieyyz wrote:
Ok I'm just a retired rampie but have read Flying magazine for 50 years plus and taken lessons and been an AV geek for about 60 years.
Having read in Flying magazine about 5 years ago in a Peter Garrison article about new AOA instruments for light and experimental planes. Like this

AOA PRO SYSTEM ALUMINUM WING WITH A & B KIT
https://m.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inp ... uminum.php

It costs like $2000. Does not need external vanes or pitot tubes. Could not this be put up on the glare shield and act as a 3rd AOA indicator. To be used only as a backup to prove which prime AOA indicator is right.

Just think of past crashes this could have helped on. Of course the Max's but also AF over the Atlantic and the 757 in South America that took off towards the ocean at night with the static vents taped over.

I understand the Max's MCAS took control over from the pilots and they couldn't shut it off but at least they could have compared AOA sensors and figured out which one was erroneous.

Why does it all have to be tied into 1 system. Let the pilots make the decision what info is right and what to turn off.

Guess trying to keep things simple and letting pilots fly is too old fashioned of an idea

Max doesn't need an indicator device, it needs a third input into computer.
If you think about it, AoA display was only an option for MAX before grounding, as well as on NG. Idea is that AoA is a redundant piece of information for pilots, pitch and airpeed are more important. That's why synthetic parameters are possible - there is actually more data in the system than the bare minimum, so cross check is possible.
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:29 am

JonesNL wrote:
Exrampieyyz wrote:
....

I understand the Max's MCAS took control over from the pilots and they couldn't shut it off but at least they could have compared AOA sensors and figured out which one was erroneous.

Why does it all have to be tied into 1 system. Let the pilots make the decision what info is right and what to turn off.

Guess trying to keep things simple and letting pilots fly is too old fashioned of an idea


Well, even Boeing quotes that 80% or more of the crashes are pilot errors. You don't need to be an expert to realize that less work for pilots means less crashes.


Yes pilot error has always been the main cause of accidents and automated systems have made aviation so much safer then before. But automation fails and pilots are relying on it too much. Pilots need to be able to tell when the computers are spiting out garbage and be able to turn off systems and fly the airplane by the seat of his/her pants and basic instruments.
I agree with less work for pilots but totally depending on systems and not having basic airman skills is beginning to become the main cause of accidents.
You are adding so much work by needing to understand all the systems and fly the plane than to turn it off, land the plane in a manual mode and let mechanics fix it on the ground when there is no pressure also to fly the plane
P51 P38 TBM B17 T34P ST75 C150/72/85 C402/21 AA1 B06 S232/33 AC80 BE35 DC3/4M/8/9/10 DHC4/6/7/8 CRJ2/9 CONI L188 L101 B717/27/37/47/57/67/77/87 A319/20/21/30/40/80 E175/90 BA46 BA11 CLVT A748 B190 JS31 SW4 SF34 F28 VISC VC9
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:43 am

kalvado wrote:
Exrampieyyz wrote:
Ok I'm just a retired rampie but have read Flying magazine for 50 years plus and taken lessons and been an AV geek for about 60 years.
Having read in Flying magazine about 5 years ago in a Peter Garrison article about new AOA instruments for light and experimental planes. Like this

AOA PRO SYSTEM ALUMINUM WING WITH A & B KIT
https://m.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inp ... uminum.php

It costs like $2000. Does not need external vanes or pitot tubes. Could not this be put up on the glare shield and act as a 3rd AOA indicator. To be used only as a backup to prove which prime AOA indicator is right.

Just think of past crashes this could have helped on. Of course the Max's but also AF over the Atlantic and the 757 in South America that took off towards the ocean at night with the static vents taped over.

I understand the Max's MCAS took control over from the pilots and they couldn't shut it off but at least they could have compared AOA sensors and figured out which one was erroneous.

Why does it all have to be tied into 1 system. Let the pilots make the decision what info is right and what to turn off.

Guess trying to keep things simple and letting pilots fly is too old fashioned of an idea

Max doe
sn't need an indicator device, it needs a third input into computer.
If you think about it, AoA display was only an option for MAX before grounding, as well as on NG. Idea is that AoA is a redundant piece of information for pilots, pitch and airpeed are more important. That's why synthetic parameters are possible - there is actually more data in the system than the bare minimum, so cross check is possible.

Yes agreed, all you need is a basic T instrument panel and a pilot can fly thru any wxx. But now we have computers flying and the pilot must know how to operate all the systems.
How may accidents have been caused because the computer is malfunctioning and the pilots are either fighting the computer or believing the garbage the computer is telling them.
Flying the airplane is the pilots number one job. So more basic instruments with seperate inputs will let pilots decide how to fly the plane and which computer systems are causing problems.
The KISS system is still the safest. Let the computers back up the pilots from doing the wrong thing but teach basic airmenship and let pilots be able to turn off systems that are turning on them.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:06 pm

What struck me in the 1950s was speed, altitude, AoA, flight direction, and location were all somewhat synthetically calculated and relative. The same is still true, but to a lesser degree than then. The technology exists to provide pilots and computers with more absolute information, both relative to the surface of the earth, and with regards to air masses.
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dagKentWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:25 pm

BOE701 is scheduled for flight today starting at 8:45 PDT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701. Time for Transport Canada to do their certification flights.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:42 pm

She's in the air
 
dagKentWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:18 pm

There's another -8 in the air now, out of Boeing Field. It's headed toward the coast, and then back toward Moses Lake. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE191
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:38 pm

dagKentWA wrote:
BOE701 is scheduled for flight today starting at 8:45 PDT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701. Time for Transport Canada to do their certification flights.


Are the EU safety authorities also planning on their own certification flights?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:48 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
She's in the air

Apparently flew out to MWH in more or less a straight line, landed, and is now doing some work near MWH.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
Apparently flew out to MWH in more or less a straight line, landed, and is now doing some work near MWH.


She is still in the air, did some interesting maneuvers...
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Apparently flew out to MWH in more or less a straight line, landed, and is now doing some work near MWH.


She is still in the air, did some interesting maneuvers...

I was hoping her flight path would draw a giant Maple Leaf over the ground, but nope, she's heading back to KBFI and landing in 10 minutes.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:41 pm

dagKentWA wrote:
There's another -8 in the air now, out of Boeing Field. It's headed toward the coast, and then back toward Moses Lake. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE191

Apparently a WN MAX-8, ref: https://twitter.com/AeroimagesChris/sta ... 7266653185
Flight history suggests a few flights back and forth to MWH.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
dagKentWA wrote:
BOE701 is scheduled for flight today starting at 8:45 PDT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701. Time for Transport Canada to do their certification flights.


Are the EU safety authorities also planning on their own certification flights?

Apparently will happen the week of Sept 7th in Vancouver Canada: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53930694

"While Boeing still has some final actions to close off, EASA judges the overall maturity of the re-design process is now sufficient to proceed to flight tests. These are a prerequisite for the European agency to approve the aircraft's new design."

EASA said simulator tests would take place from 1 September at London's Gatwick airport.

Apparently, "the process of scheduling the test flights had been hindered by Covid-19 travel restrictions between Europe and the US".

Nothing to do with the issues at the WTO, I'm sure.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
dagKentWA wrote:
BOE701 is scheduled for flight today starting at 8:45 PDT. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701. Time for Transport Canada to do their certification flights.


Are the EU safety authorities also planning on their own certification flights?

Apparently will happen the week of Sept 7th in Vancouver Canada: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53930694

"While Boeing still has some final actions to close off, EASA judges the overall maturity of the re-design process is now sufficient to proceed to flight tests. These are a prerequisite for the European agency to approve the aircraft's new design."

EASA said simulator tests would take place from 1 September at London's Gatwick airport.

Apparently, "the process of scheduling the test flights had been hindered by Covid-19 travel restrictions between Europe and the US".

Nothing to do with the issues at the WTO, I'm sure.

Interesting proposition, considering all non-essential travel to Canada is forbidden. Neither the US citizens nor the EU citizens would be permitted. Frankly, I can’t imagine Canada granting them any special exception.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:16 pm

https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and ... ng-737-max

JOEB (which according to a Boeing press release from November is the final stage) will commence on sep 14th
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:20 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Interesting proposition, considering all non-essential travel to Canada is forbidden. Neither the US citizens nor the EU citizens would be permitted. Frankly, I can’t imagine Canada granting them any special exception.


Maybe it is considered essential travel? It would be, after all, governmental staff on official business.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:11 pm

I noticed that during the three-day flight testing campaign with the FAA, they flew some crazy patterns and it really looked like they tested the heck out of that airplane. A single flight with Transport Canada shows a few tight turns and that's about it. I wonder what EASA plans to do. I understand that non-US agencies have all the information from the FAA-led tests, but still, the difference between the two test flights is more than obvious. Are these the first signs that the FAA is getting back some of the respect it lost?
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:21 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
I noticed that during the three-day flight testing campaign with the FAA, they flew some crazy patterns and it really looked like they tested the heck out of that airplane. A single flight with Transport Canada shows a few tight turns and that's about it. I wonder what EASA plans to do. I understand that non-US agencies have all the information from the FAA-led tests, but still, the difference between the two test flights is more than obvious. Are these the first signs that the FAA is getting back some of the respect it lost?

A big question is what FAA actually tested. There is basically a single issue at hand, and only a narrow part of the envelope and several failures to get tested.
I can see it all fit into 1 hour flight. FAA may be just showing it's authority by doing more tests. I believe individual certification of already built 737 is on the same page - showing self importance instead of due diligence, while applying punishing action without calling it punishment.
If that is the case, it is probably more of a demonstration to FAA of how things should be done by true professionals.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:27 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
I noticed that during the three-day flight testing campaign with the FAA, they flew some crazy patterns and it really looked like they tested the heck out of that airplane. A single flight with Transport Canada shows a few tight turns and that's about it. I wonder what EASA plans to do. I understand that non-US agencies have all the information from the FAA-led tests, but still, the difference between the two test flights is more than obvious. Are these the first signs that the FAA is getting back some of the respect it lost?

I thought a large part of the flight test was to prove what the simulator was telling you, and most of the truly dangerous stuff would be done in the sim.

Interesting that the JOEB evaluation will only happen after a week of sim flying at LGW, IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:30 pm

Stitch wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Interesting proposition, considering all non-essential travel to Canada is forbidden. Neither the US citizens nor the EU citizens would be permitted. Frankly, I can’t imagine Canada granting them any special exception.


Maybe it is considered essential travel? It would be, after all, governmental staff on official business.

I could maybe understand that, if it were Canadian officials, but we’re talking about EU officials and employees of Boeing. Besides, even the Transport Canada flights were conducted in Washington. I don’t understand what travel restrictions would exist between the EU and the USA which would be more complicated than coming to Canada. Canada is closed to everyone who isn't a citizen or someone with some sort of Canadian immigration status. The only exceptions are for essential business, which mostly encompasses people involved in an essential service industry (like truck drivers hauling food).

Maybe they mean Vancouver, Washington, USA? lol :duck:
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:59 am

kalvado wrote:
[...]
A big question is what FAA actually tested.
[...]


I wonder whether the test results are covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I have never filed a FOIA request, but if it doesn't involve big expenses, e.g., hiring a lawyer, I might do that. I'm curious to see whether they did perform any wind-up turns, or at least a "semi" wind-up turn where MCAS 2.0 turns itself off and stays off for the duration of the turn. If I understand correctly, they did test turns with MCAS off and into stall, which was a concern of mine given the (still undisclosed) nature of the aerodynamic problems.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:39 am

The flight test radar tracks looked like it for sure.

Will EASA use the Boeing company MAX 7 again or some European registered aircraft, like a TUIfly, to do their testing?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:48 am

Noshow wrote:
The flight test radar tracks looked like it for sure.

Will EASA use the Boeing company MAX 7 again or some European registered aircraft, like a TUIfly, to do their testing?

I think it will be the MAX 7 and will take place at Vancouver. It’s only the MAX 7 that has all the fixes in place.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:18 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The flight test radar tracks looked like it for sure.

Will EASA use the Boeing company MAX 7 again or some European registered aircraft, like a TUIfly, to do their testing?

I think it will be the MAX 7 and will take place at Vancouver. It’s only the MAX 7 that has all the fixes in place.

The procedure used for Canada's testing was:

From Aug. 23 to 25, Canadian flight test crews were flown to Seattle, Wash., where they completed evaluations in Boeing’s engineering simulator. They returned to Vancouver each evening, following safety measures implemented due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

On Aug. 26 and 27, crews moved into the Max 8 test aircraft, performing a series of evaluation flights in U.S. airspace.

Ref: https://www.skiesmag.com/news/transport ... ax-testing

So it seems TC commuted by air each day from Vancouver to Seattle to do the testing.

Strange, but I suppose it helps work around some aspect of the COVID related protocols.

Note how our posts above say a WN MAX-8 was being used for test flights, not the MAX-7 prototype, which jives with this new report.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53930694 says:

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) said the tests would take place in Vancouver, Canada in the week beginning 7 September.
...
EASA said simulator tests would take place from 1 September at London's Gatwick airport.

So it's a good bet EASA will be following the same procedures for flight testing.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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