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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:37 pm

IADFCO wrote:
kalvado wrote:
[...]
A big question is what FAA actually tested.
[...]


I wonder whether the test results are covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I have never filed a FOIA request, but if it doesn't involve big expenses, e.g., hiring a lawyer, I might do that. I'm curious to see whether they did perform any wind-up turns, or at least a "semi" wind-up turn where MCAS 2.0 turns itself off and stays off for the duration of the turn. If I understand correctly, they did test turns with MCAS off and into stall, which was a concern of mine given the (still undisclosed) nature of the aerodynamic problems.

Most of the test results would probably be considered trade/commercial secrets (remember, we are talking about data on a third non-government party’s commercial product) and would be exempt from disclosure under FOIA.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:33 pm

How about the unaugmented raw flight behavior of a MAX with MCAS set to "off"? Will this be known and published in the process?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:38 pm

Noshow wrote:
How about the unaugmented raw flight behavior of a MAX with MCAS set to "off"? Will this be known and published in the process?

Probably as @polot commented above - no, that will never happen.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:59 pm

Noshow wrote:
How about the unaugmented raw flight behavior of a MAX with MCAS set to "off"? Will this be known and published in the process?

Nope. Raw test data will never be released, that is a commercial secret. You can gain a lot of information about the plane beyond just what MCAS is doing from raw data, and of course the government is not going to hand that out so competitors worldwide can see and analyze it. Then no company (in any industry) would submit information to the US.
 
75driver
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:03 pm

So what’s the final outcome on EASA’s position about a third AOA sensor? Based on the recent news Boeing has no intention of making hardware changes except the separation of a wiring harnesses. That doesn’t cut it based on what EASA was requesting. Is EASA just going to accept it without one? I find this troubling on many fronts if true. Anyone have info about this?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:12 pm

75driver wrote:
So what’s the final outcome on EASA’s position about a third AOA sensor? Based on the recent news Boeing has no intention of making hardware changes except the separation of a wiring harnesses. That doesn’t cut it based on what EASA was requesting. Is EASA just going to accept it without one? I find this troubling on many fronts if true. Anyone have info about this?

Looks like temporary OK with 2 existing AoA sensors for already certified -8 and -9, and developing synthetic AoA "sensor" from the other data to be used in leu of third hardware sensor. -10 wouldn't be certified until that happens (not sure what that means for -7), and then retrofit to already delivered -8-9 would follow
I assume data massage and sanity check can be pretty useful for entire control system, not just as AoA source. Depending on implementation, of course
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:36 pm

I just now got around to reading the FAA's proposed AD. It seems that the procedure for an AoA disagree which causes MCAS to be inoperative is to inform the crew that the speed trim system will not move the stabilizer. I guess this indicates that the MAX, while it would have failed the certification test without MCAS, doesn't require MCAS for safe operation. If it did, I would have expected to see all kinds of envelope restrictions added to the checklist.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:55 pm

planecane wrote:
I just now got around to reading the FAA's proposed AD. It seems that the procedure for an AoA disagree which causes MCAS to be inoperative is to inform the crew that the speed trim system will not move the stabilizer. I guess this indicates that the MAX, while it would have failed the certification test without MCAS, doesn't require MCAS for safe operation. If it did, I would have expected to see all kinds of envelope restrictions added to the checklist.


Interesting. I never thought it did need MCAS for safe operation - possible over regulation in the first place where an exemption would have been the smarter thing to grant than requiring a new system (MCAS) making something more complex than necessary.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:48 pm

planecane wrote:
I just now got around to reading the FAA's proposed AD. It seems that the procedure for an AoA disagree which causes MCAS to be inoperative is to inform the crew that the speed trim system will not move the stabilizer. I guess this indicates that the MAX, while it would have failed the certification test without MCAS, doesn't require MCAS for safe operation. If it did, I would have expected to see all kinds of envelope restrictions added to the checklist.

Yes, this approach to MCAS failure has been around since at least the "cosmic ray fix" was being discussed late last summer, and presumably also present in the fix Boeing was working on at the time of the second crash last spring. Thus this same question has been around that long, without being directly answered, as far as I recall.

It is as if the regulators are saying the stick force gradient must be met in normal operation, but in case of equipment failure such as AoA disagree the gradient can be sub-standard. I just don't know the mechanism that allows this in the FARs, but clearly one exists since FAA and TC have done their test flights and EASA is about to. We know AoA disagree on the ground will prevent flight, presuming the crews follow the checklists for stab failure. Thus the vulnerability would be a bird strike or undetected fault taking out one AoA. I guess they will handle this via training, and is probably a reason why sim training is now mandatory.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
planecane wrote:
I just now got around to reading the FAA's proposed AD. It seems that the procedure for an AoA disagree which causes MCAS to be inoperative is to inform the crew that the speed trim system will not move the stabilizer. I guess this indicates that the MAX, while it would have failed the certification test without MCAS, doesn't require MCAS for safe operation. If it did, I would have expected to see all kinds of envelope restrictions added to the checklist.

Yes, this approach to MCAS failure has been around since at least the "cosmic ray fix" was being discussed late last summer, and presumably also present in the fix Boeing was working on at the time of the second crash last spring. Thus this same question has been around that long, without being directly answered, as far as I recall.

It is as if the regulators are saying the stick force gradient must be met in normal operation, but in case of equipment failure such as AoA disagree the gradient can be sub-standard. I just don't know the mechanism that allows this in the FARs, but clearly one exists since FAA and TC have done their test flights and EASA is about to. We know AoA disagree on the ground will prevent flight, presuming the crews follow the checklists for stab failure. Thus the vulnerability would be a bird strike or undetected fault taking out one AoA. I guess they will handle this via training, and is probably a reason why sim training is now mandatory.

Probably risk analysis. Probability of AoA failure is 1e-5(?), probability of MCAS activation 1e-5, total 1e-10 = no action. Hopefully they got numbers right this time.
Is AoA MELable? Shouldn't be...
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:00 pm

kalvado wrote:
Probably risk analysis. Probability of AoA failure is 1e-5(?), probability of MCAS activation 1e-5, total 1e-10 = no action. Hopefully they got numbers right this time.

Probably probability, eh? :biggrin:

kalvado wrote:
Is AoA MELable? Shouldn't be...

I looked at a few things on the MEL and the closest I could find was in the proposed AD summary of MEL changes on page 34: "The speed trim function must be operative for dispatch -- NOTE: This requires both FCCs to be operative for dispatch.". Since AOA disagree disables STS now, this means failed AOA grounds the plane. Kinda surprised I didn't find more direct statements, though.

Background from the proposed AD:

The updated FCC software would also compare the inputs from the two sensors to
detect a failed AOA sensor. If the difference between the AOA sensor inputs is above a
calculated threshold,11 the FCC would disable the speed trim system (STS),
including its
MCAS function, for the remainder of that flight, and provide a corresponding indication
of such deactivation on the flight deck.

So AoA failure triggers AoA disagree, and AoA disagree causes FCC to disable STS, and STS is required to be operative for dispatch.

Makes you wonder if they fail with the same reading (e.g. frozen at zero degrees) would anything electronic realize that the AoAs are dead before takeoff? Probably not, right? Then we're back into the realm of 1e-5 * 1e-5 again.
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IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:51 am

Polot wrote:
Noshow wrote:
How about the unaugmented raw flight behavior of a MAX with MCAS set to "off"? Will this be known and published in the process?

Nope. Raw test data will never be released, that is a commercial secret. You can gain a lot of information about the plane beyond just what MCAS is doing from raw data, and of course the government is not going to hand that out so competitors worldwide can see and analyze it. Then no company (in any industry) would submit information to the US.


I would think it would depend on the data. I doubt that you can consider proprietary/commercial secret the time histories of velocities and attitudes following a given pilot input, if nothing else because anyone who purchases the plane can run exactly those tests and put the results on the web if they are so inclined, unless there is some sort of NDA preventing that.

How the aircraft achieves those responses, yes, that is usually proprietary. In a FBW aircraft a lot goes on between the pilot input and the aircraft response, and the control laws are usually a closely guarded secret. The MAX is not FBW, but still there is probably quite a considerable intervention by the flight control system.

I can measure the time histories of speed and engine RPM of my car as a function of how I press the gas pedal, and post them on Facebook. I don't expect Subaru to give me the control laws from gas pedal to engine and to tires.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:41 am

Okay let's assume the MAX is back in service. One day we have those sensors disagreeing and STS including MCAS is turned off for the rest of the flight as intended now.
Now the flaps for some reason cannot be deployed, the aircraft has to be landed without flaps. What do the pilots know about the flight behavior now? They come into MCAS terrain but it's set to off now. Will the pilots be kept in the dark? Should they be?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:51 pm

Noshow wrote:
Okay let's assume the MAX is back in service. One day we have those sensors disagreeing and STS including MCAS is turned off for the rest of the flight as intended now.
Now the flaps for some reason cannot be deployed, the aircraft has to be landed without flaps. What do the pilots know about the flight behavior now? They come into MCAS terrain but it's set to off now. Will the pilots be kept in the dark? Should they be?


I think you'd need to know the probabilities to answer this question. Is it publicly known what the probability of a flaps up landing on a 737NG is? Now get the probability of an AoA disagree (or both AoA sensors failed but in the same range that won't trigger MCAS). Now get the probability of entering the MCAS envelope during a flaps up landing. Multiply all three together. My guess would be that it calculates to a FAR lower probability than regulations require.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:54 pm

Hasn’t exactly this thinking brought us to where we are?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:15 pm

Noshow wrote:
Hasn’t exactly this thinking brought us to where we are?

At some point you need a probability cutoff. Planes are not certified to be crash proof.

The biggest issue with MCAS had nothing to do with probability. It was a) it was hidden from pilots and certifying authorities and b) it was poorly implemented with no failsafes (bad AoA is not an unheard event) or easy ability to stop (made worse by A).

Boeing was running the probability gamble by not grounding after the first incident, believing that the chances of it happening again were so low that they would have a fix in time.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:38 pm

The MAX's AoA sensors are -statistically proven- super reliable. However they failed two times for whatever reasons causing all these troubles and triggering a system that was never expected to be practically needed.
Just leaving MCAS off might create the same chaos again next time? Now caused by unaugmented aerodynamics.
Last edited by Noshow on Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:40 pm

Polot wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Hasn’t exactly this thinking brought us to where we are?

At some point you need a probability cutoff. Planes are not certified to be crash proof.

The biggest issue with MCAS had nothing to do with probability. It was a) it was hidden from pilots and certifying authorities and b) it was poorly implemented with no failsafes (bad AoA is not an unheard event) or easy ability to stop (made worse by A).

Boeing was running the probability gamble by not grounding after the first incident, believing that the chances of it happening again were so low that they would have a fix in time.

I agree. There still are going to be probabilities of failure to consider. Bird strikes happen. Metal fatigues. Ice forms in cold weather. And so on.

One good way to look at things is to read through the proposed AD, which serves as a list of things Boeing did wrong on the MAX. Improper control law logic. Inadequate indicating, and in turn inadequate training. Inadequate redundancy. Inadequate wiring separation.

Note no federal aviation regulations were changed. All the problems arose because Boeing didn't follow the rules and FAA didn't catch them at not following the rules. In particular Boeing produced the safety analysis that used similarity with KC46 to avoid a close examination of MCAS, and Boeing made major changes to MCAS control authority without telling FAA of those changes.

In short, we got here because Boeing played Jedi mind tricks on itself and others in order to improve their own profitability and that of their customers by avoiding costly sim training. In the end it's costing them far more to compensate victims and airlines and repair the aircraft than the sim training would have cost them.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:48 pm

Noshow wrote:
The MAX's AoA sensors are -statistically proven- super reliable. However they failed two times for whatever reasons causing all these troubles and triggering a system that was never expected to be practically needed.

It was never acceptable for MCAS to rely on a single AoA sensor. Boeing fudged that by using similarity to KC46 MCAS (which has two sensors) and by a mistake in probability calculation (perhaps unintentional, perhaps not). Had they done their analysis correctly MCAS would have needed two sensors right from the start. Then, in turn, the failure modes would have needed sim training, something Boeing was desperately trying to avoid due to lust for profit. They had threaded their way through the FARs by giving themselves many benefits of the doubt and by being their own designated inspectors. In the end it all backfired on them.
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Exeiowa
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:02 pm

The evidence suggests that in the case of the Ethiopian plane it was struck by an object, most likely a bird, which damaged the sensor, an obvious risk for anything sticking out from the surface of a plane, so regardless of the components own reliability there was always this other potential failure mode.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:11 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Polot wrote:
Noshow wrote:
How about the unaugmented raw flight behavior of a MAX with MCAS set to "off"? Will this be known and published in the process?

Nope. Raw test data will never be released, that is a commercial secret. You can gain a lot of information about the plane beyond just what MCAS is doing from raw data, and of course the government is not going to hand that out so competitors worldwide can see and analyze it. Then no company (in any industry) would submit information to the US.


I would think it would depend on the data. I doubt that you can consider proprietary/commercial secret the time histories of velocities and attitudes following a given pilot input, if nothing else because anyone who purchases the plane can run exactly those tests and put the results on the web if they are so inclined, unless there is some sort of NDA preventing that.

How the aircraft achieves those responses, yes, that is usually proprietary. In a FBW aircraft a lot goes on between the pilot input and the aircraft response, and the control laws are usually a closely guarded secret. The MAX is not FBW, but still there is probably quite a considerable intervention by the flight control system.

I can measure the time histories of speed and engine RPM of my car as a function of how I press the gas pedal, and post them on Facebook. I don't expect Subaru to give me the control laws from gas pedal to engine and to tires.

In a case Boeing filed against Bombardier regarding Delta's purchace of C-series (A220 by now) at heavy discount, a list of hot and high airports in US was redacted before public release.
So once your lawsuit regarding data release proceeds to supreme court, this argument will be carefully examined by lawyers of all parties.......
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:14 pm

Noshow wrote:
The MAX's AoA sensors are -statistically proven- super reliable. However they failed two times for whatever reasons causing all these troubles and triggering a system that was never expected to be practically needed.
Just leaving MCAS off might create the same chaos again next time? Now caused by unaugmented aerodynamics.

Do you have data on that "super-reliable"? I saw datasheet on "highly reliable" sensor which goes on CRJ, with MTBF as high as 100k hours. Which means pretty crappy per-flight numbers.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:16 pm

planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Okay let's assume the MAX is back in service. One day we have those sensors disagreeing and STS including MCAS is turned off for the rest of the flight as intended now.
Now the flaps for some reason cannot be deployed, the aircraft has to be landed without flaps. What do the pilots know about the flight behavior now? They come into MCAS terrain but it's set to off now. Will the pilots be kept in the dark? Should they be?


I think you'd need to know the probabilities to answer this question. Is it publicly known what the probability of a flaps up landing on a 737NG is? Now get the probability of an AoA disagree (or both AoA sensors failed but in the same range that won't trigger MCAS). Now get the probability of entering the MCAS envelope during a flaps up landing. Multiply all three together. My guess would be that it calculates to a FAR lower probability than regulations require.

AoA failure and harsh collision evasion requiring a tight turn is a more likely scenario - but, hopefully, still within the limits.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:40 pm

Noshow wrote:
The MAX's AoA sensors are -statistically proven- super reliable. However they failed two times for whatever reasons causing all these troubles and triggering a system that was never expected to be practically needed. Just leaving MCAS off might create the same chaos again next time? Now caused by un-augmented aerodynamics.


Well "next time" there will be at least two AoA sensors instead of one. There might even be three, if EASA gets their desire, or a synthetic system also providing AoA data. So a single AoA failure as happened on the two MAX hull losses would not have the impact it did in said two MAX hull losses.

Also "next time" the crew will be fully informed and trained on both MCAS when it is in operation and MCAS when it is not in operation (having been disabled either by them or by programmed response) and how to operate the airframe in both situations.


Exeiowa wrote:
The evidence suggests that in the case of the Ethiopian plane it was struck by an object, most likely a bird, which damaged the sensor, an obvious risk for anything sticking out from the surface of a plane, so regardless of the components own reliability there was always this other potential failure mode.


And this is why a single AoA should not have been an acceptable configuration.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:25 pm

I'm mostly interested to hear from Transport Canada after they review the test results. They have been levelheaded and consistent throughout the entire process. The FAA and EASA should take notes from them.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:26 pm

Actually EASA was polite but crisp as well. And they are set to go.
 
jake112
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:16 pm

AC today operated a B738M (Acft 524..CGEJL) MZJYUL flt ac2328.Does anyone have any info why
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:14 pm

jake112 wrote:
AC today operated a B738M (Acft 524..CGEJL) MZJYUL flt ac2328.Does anyone have any info why


Aircraft are moved back and forth often for MTC and/or training. I think you’ll start seeing more aircraft moving north now. WS will start moving their MAXs north this month or early Oct.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:15 pm

Max 7 in the air on its way to YVR to pick up EASA officials
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:27 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
Max 7 in the air on its way to YVR to pick up EASA officials


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /CYVR/KBFI

Just about to land at BFI. I thought all the tests would be performed in Canada. Looking forward to seeing the EASA tests completed. Who's left - China?
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:46 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
Max 7 in the air on its way to YVR to pick up EASA officials

Just about to land at BFI. I thought all the tests would be performed in Canada. Looking forward to seeing the EASA tests completed. Who's left - China?

Info from an earlier post may be relevant:

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Will EASA use the Boeing company MAX 7 again or some European registered aircraft, like a TUIfly, to do their testing?

I think it will be the MAX 7 and will take place at Vancouver. It’s only the MAX 7 that has all the fixes in place.

The procedure used for Canada's testing was:

From Aug. 23 to 25, Canadian flight test crews were flown to Seattle, Wash., where they completed evaluations in Boeing’s engineering simulator. They returned to Vancouver each evening, following safety measures implemented due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

On Aug. 26 and 27, crews moved into the Max 8 test aircraft, performing a series of evaluation flights in U.S. airspace.

Ref: https://www.skiesmag.com/news/transport ... ax-testing

So it seems TC commuted by air each day from Vancouver to Seattle to do the testing.

Strange, but I suppose it helps work around some aspect of the COVID related protocols.

Note how our posts above say a WN MAX-8 was being used for test flights, not the MAX-7 prototype, which jives with this new report.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53930694 says:

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) said the tests would take place in Vancouver, Canada in the week beginning 7 September.
...
EASA said simulator tests would take place from 1 September at London's Gatwick airport.

So it's a good bet EASA will be following the same procedures for flight testing.
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:48 pm

Thanks, Revelation.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:59 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I noticed this on Boeing's Website. I hadn't seen it before:

http://www.boeing.com/737-max-updates/

You noticed what exactly? That the 737 Max has updates? Something else?

Gentle hint; you are supposed to provide a summary or snapshot of the webpage you are linking to, to save people following the link when they may already be aware of it's contents. Or simply not interested in whatever angle it is highlighting.
Thx in advance.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:07 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I noticed this on Boeing's Website. I hadn't seen it before:

http://www.boeing.com/737-max-updates/

You noticed what exactly? That the 737 Max has updates? Something else?

Gentle hint; you are supposed to provide a summary or snapshot of the webpage you are linking to, to save people following the link when they may already be aware of it's contents. Or simply not interested in whatever angle it is highlighting.
Thx in advance.


I can't go back and edit. However, I will induldge you:

I noticed this on Boeing's Website. I hadn't seen a summary of items related to MAX fixes/rts before on the Boeing site. There is not alot of detail, but at least an acknowledgement of the punch list items.

http://www.boeing.com/737-max-updates/
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:15 pm

It looks like the only real testing happened yesterday.

The longest (2:18) flight had quite a few interesting maneuvers: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /CYVR/KMWH

Another, shorter flight (1:03) didn't look too exciting, except a few interesting speed changes: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /KMWH/CYVR

All other flights (2 yesterday and 2 today) were quick shuttle flights.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:30 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I can't go back and edit. However, I will induldge you:

I noticed this on Boeing's Website. I hadn't seen a summary of items related to MAX fixes/rts before on the Boeing site. There is not alot of detail, but at least an acknowledgement of the punch list items.

http://www.boeing.com/737-max-updates/

To be honest, this is an example of why I find the current internet so disappointing. Boeing could be sharing a lot more about what is actually going on (like EASA is in town for some test flights, right?) but instead we get web sites focused on 'look and feel' and not on providing easy access to content.

For instance, we get a blurb about software updates with highlighted text but none of the text segments are clickable. Want to know more about those three extra layers of protection? Nope, don't click right on the text, but go to the bottom to 'more resources' and click on that and hunt around, click on another link, then you get a months old press release that says:

The additional layers of protection that are being proposed include:
* Flight control system will now compare inputs from both AOA sensors. If the sensors disagree by 5.5 degrees or more with the flaps retracted, MCAS will not activate. An indicator on the flight deck display will alert the pilots.
* If MCAS is activated in non-normal conditions, it will only provide one input for each elevated AOA event. There are no known or envisioned failure conditions where MCAS will provide multiple inputs.
* MCAS can never command more stabilizer input than can be counteracted by the flight crew pulling back on the column. The pilots will continue to always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane.

So how are these 'extra layers of protection' instead of 'bug fixes' ?!?

It's a fake, Cheez-Whiz web site, IMO.

We'd be better off with paragraphs and bullets with links that take you to actual information, like we got back in the 90s.

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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:32 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
It looks like the only real testing happened yesterday.

The longest (2:18) flight had quite a few interesting maneuvers: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /CYVR/KMWH

Another, shorter flight (1:03) didn't look too exciting, except a few interesting speed changes: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /KMWH/CYVR

All other flights (2 yesterday and 2 today) were quick shuttle flights.

I don't think Transport Canada did much more than this for their tests either.

Disappointing to the "hang them by the naughty bits" crowd, but here we are.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
To be honest, this is an example of why I find the current internet so disappointing. Boeing could be sharing a lot more about what is actually going on (like EASA is in town for some test flights, right?) but instead we get web sites focused on 'look and feel' and not on providing easy access to content.


I'm guessing this is more just a basic "FYI" page and those who are interested in deeper information already "know where to go" (like FlightGlobal or using an Internet search engine to find more specific information) just as we all do.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:28 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
It looks like the only real testing happened yesterday.

The longest (2:18) flight had quite a few interesting maneuvers: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /CYVR/KMWH

Another, shorter flight (1:03) didn't look too exciting, except a few interesting speed changes: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... /KMWH/CYVR

All other flights (2 yesterday and 2 today) were quick shuttle flights.


Were those the infamous wind up turns? And the MAX survived and didn't become a lawn dart? Interesting.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:32 pm

It seems that they are now flying another test on a 738: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:35 pm

morrisond wrote:
Were those the infamous wind up turns? And the MAX survived and didn't become a lawn dart? Interesting.


It seems so. Both TC and EASA seem to think that 2-3 of those were enough to be convinced.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:37 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
It seems that they are now flying another test on a 738: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701

Again similar to Transport Canada, some flights in the MAX-7 prototype, others in a "borrowed" MAX-8.
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
It seems that they are now flying another test on a 738: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE701

Again similar to Transport Canada, some flights in the MAX-7 prototype, others in a "borrowed" MAX-8.


That flightaware link is a max7. Im watching it live. There are currently no Max 8 in the air doing flight tests
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:27 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
That flightaware link is a max7. Im watching it live. There are currently no Max 8 in the air doing flight tests


Check this one (not looking like a Max though): https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KPDT
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:29 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
That flightaware link is a max7. Im watching it live. There are currently no Max 8 in the air doing flight tests


Check this one (not looking like a Max though): https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KPDT



That is the same plane. Boeing livery 737 max 7.

It flew over me twice today
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:32 am

Spetsnaz55 wrote:

That is the same plane. Boeing livery 737 max 7.

It flew over me twice today


Not sure why FlightAware shows 738 though.

Edit: Just checked it again. FlightAware is a mess. It shows the aircraft "diverted" in the middle of the flight and then miraculously flew to YVR instead of PDT but this time as a Max.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KPDT
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
737max8
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:34 am

FWIW, even if these planes are due to be delivered to WN eventually, they are Boeing A/C until the day they are delivered. Found the term "borrowed" interesting about the 737-8. It's Boeing's airplane.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:16 am

Polot wrote:
Nope. Raw test data will never be released, that is a commercial secret. You can gain a lot of information about the plane beyond just what MCAS is doing from raw data, and of course the government is not going to hand that out so competitors worldwide can see and analyze it. Then no company (in any industry) would submit information to the US.


My personal opinion is that a company should lose those commercial protections the moment it releases a product with serious, life endangering flaws. It's also not likely that another manufacturer would be particularly keen to copy anything from the MAX.

Understood that there are a myriad of other reasons why it wouldn't be in Boeing's interest, but that's not near the top of my worry list.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:10 am

737max8 wrote:
FWIW, even if these planes are due to be delivered to WN eventually, they are Boeing A/C until the day they are delivered. Found the term "borrowed" interesting about the 737-8. It's Boeing's airplane.

Airline expects to get the plane delivered with single digit number of cycles and hours. These test flights increase both. Not sure how much that affects the value or spelled out in a contract, though. Bit I am pretty sure I would be not too happy if my "new" car had couple hundred miles on delivery.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q3 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:18 am

kalvado wrote:
737max8 wrote:
FWIW, even if these planes are due to be delivered to WN eventually, they are Boeing A/C until the day they are delivered. Found the term "borrowed" interesting about the 737-8. It's Boeing's airplane.

Airline expects to get the plane delivered with single digit number of cycles and hours. These test flights increase both. Not sure how much that affects the value or spelled out in a contract, though. Bit I am pretty sure I would be not too happy if my "new" car had couple hundred miles on delivery.

Airlines get compensated when their plane is used for testing. Boeing doesn’t just grab a random plane, they ask the intended customer and negotiate a settlement- lower price, discount on new feature if that is what they are testing, included in any publicity (eg testing new biofuels) , etc. It may technically be Boeing’s plane still but it usually has the customer’s trademarked name and branding painted on it so it’s not like Boeing can just use the planes willy nilly for whatever they want.

Boeing often first asks airlines they have a close relationship with if they have a suitable aircraft in the pipeline-WN, UA, etc.

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