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peterinlisbon
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:19 pm

JeremyB wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
JeremyB wrote:

Once a carrier is blacklisted by EASA they can't operate any flights to Europe, this also includes overflying the European airspace. If they still want to go to North America they would probably have to go East.

PIA will need to prove it's safety has improved, otherwise the ban can be extended for another 3 months. If they have can provide evidence that they have improved their safety, training whatever, they will be able to operate to the EU again on the 1st of January 2021.


According to news sources, the EU will still allow overlying of it's territory until further notice:

https://www.aero.de/news-36080/EASA-ent ... echte.html

In German only I'm afraid.


Thanks for the link! Didn't expect them to still be allowed to overfly the EU, normally that is included in a ban.


I think if Europe banned overflights they could hit us back with a reciprocal ban, which would affect a lot of Europe to Asia flights. Plus where are they going to fly anyway - maybe just the odd ultra long haul to USA/Canada and that will be with their most senior pilots.
 
dfwking
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:21 pm

Can PIA wet lease aircraft and operate to the EU? Can they use charter carriers to operate flights on their behalf? Would this be allowed under a EU ban?
Last edited by dfwking on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:23 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
maint123 wrote:
factsonly wrote:

Wednesday July 1st, 2020:

There is a PIA flight en-route to LHR.

- PK785 ISB 12.06 - LHR 16.00 B77W AP-BID

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA785/24d2cedf

Question is....... will Pakistan take retaliatory action against EU carriers and ban overflights.

Possibly not, as there is a technical cause, not a political one.

A bit surprised that the ban came so late. PIA is famous for its crew smuggling drugs and money across borders. Scores of cases across the years.


Maybe you care to provide a source for that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-40016761
"Is heroin being smuggled on Pakistani planes into Heathrow?
By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad
24 May 2017
A London-bound state-run Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane taxies before take-off from Karachi International Airport in Karachi on 21 April, 2010
Image captionHeroin was found on two PIA flights to London (File photo)
Pakistan's national carrier says it is taking measures to ensure its planes are not used to carry drugs after heroin was found on two of its London-bound aircraft.
Aviation authorities are also investigating how the drugs might be making their way on to the planes of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA).
What happened?
On 15 May, UK's Border Force officials impounded a PIA flight from Islamabad on arrival at London Heathrow airport and searched it for several hours.
The National Crime Agency later said that a quantity of heroin had been found hidden in different panels of the plane."
Here you go.
 
jmp704
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:32 pm

Any idea when the US will follow suit
 
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Polot
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm

jmp704 wrote:
Any idea when the US will follow suit

No major rush, as PIA hasn’t flown to the US since late 2017. Already the US does not accept Pakistani security screening and requires flights from there to stop somewhere and rescreen everyone before continuing on to US.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 408
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:23 pm

dfwking wrote:
Can PIA wet lease aircraft and operate to the EU? Can they use charter carriers to operate flights on their behalf? Would this be allowed under a EU ban?

Yes, some african nations were using hifly in that way before covid and an ACMI operator would be flying under their own certificate provided that was not a Pakistan issued certificate and the issuing nation was not banned it would be legal.
 
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zeke
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:32 pm

Polot wrote:
Safety management might have been the issue with PIA that was initially on the EU’s radar, but it certainly isn’t the only one now and it is unlikely the ban will be lifted until EASA has confidence in Pakistan’s pilot certifying standards and oversight.


That still is not correct, EASA cannot issue an airline a notice over items they cannot control. Licences are not issued by PIA they are issued by the government.

No notice has been issued against PIA relating to licences.

It may seem like semantics to you however the process of issuing, review, and suspension of foreign air operators certificates has a very detailed framework which EASA has to follow. Nothing happens fast to the correct decisions are made.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Polot
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 pm

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
Safety management might have been the issue with PIA that was initially on the EU’s radar, but it certainly isn’t the only one now and it is unlikely the ban will be lifted until EASA has confidence in Pakistan’s pilot certifying standards and oversight.


That still is not correct, EASA cannot issue an airline a notice over items they cannot control. Licences are not issued by PIA they are issued by the government.

No notice has been issued against PIA relating to licences.

It may seem like semantics to you however the process of issuing, review, and suspension of foreign air operators certificates has a very detailed framework which EASA has to follow. Nothing happens fast to the correct decisions are made.

EASA/the EU blacklists entire countries if they need to. I would not be so confident that PIA/Pakistan won’t face that issue if they fail to satisfy the EASA’s pilot license concerns.
 
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zeke
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:07 am

Polot wrote:
EASA/the EU blacklists entire countries if they need to. I would not be so confident that PIA/Pakistan won’t face that issue if they fail to satisfy the EASA’s pilot license concerns.


Yes EASA can blacklist a country, however the process will involve first to identify the problem and then give an opportunity to rectify.

PIA would not get banned for false licences as those licenses were falsely issued by the government.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Blerg
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:14 am

avier wrote:
behramjee wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:


They won't give a damn as they both have left PIA in the dust a long time ago.


You didn’t understand his post so let me give you a reality check

UK-ISB out of the 800,000 pax, PIA controls 70% market share because pax prefer the nonstop flying convenience option hence now with that no longer available for 6 months, the Gulf carriers will benefit a lot. The only reason why PK doesn’t have 80-85% market share on UK-ISB is because it flies lhr-isb 4 weekly only when it should be daily as p2p alone here is almost 300,000 pax ! MAN-ISB is already a daily B777 since Q1-2019.

The only market in EU where PK doesn’t dominate is KHI-LHR because it offers a 1 weekly service.

And how do those numbers have any relevance to the current market situation now? The traffic figures are going to be very unidirectional and small. And EU has also put restrictions on what nationalities can enter their countries; Pakistan and even US, Brazil etc don't figure on the list. So those numbers have no bearing to now or even till the year end, till when this ban is in place. If any benefit to ME carriers from this, it'd be miniscule.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/worl ... elers.html


The market itself is massive so even with this drop there is still going to be demand, quite a bit of it. If it drops from 800.000 to 100.000 it's still something, a decent number from which other airlines can profit from. Also, many Pakistanis who live in Europe have received citizenship or at least a residency permit. If I am not mistaken those are allowed to leave and return into the EU. I suppose this group makes up most passengers flying between the EU and Pakistan.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:41 am

maint123 wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
maint123 wrote:
A bit surprised that the ban came so late. PIA is famous for its crew smuggling drugs and money across borders. Scores of cases across the years.


Maybe you care to provide a source for that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-40016761
"Is heroin being smuggled on Pakistani planes into Heathrow?
By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad
24 May 2017
A London-bound state-run Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane taxies before take-off from Karachi International Airport in Karachi on 21 April, 2010
Image captionHeroin was found on two PIA flights to London (File photo)
Pakistan's national carrier says it is taking measures to ensure its planes are not used to carry drugs after heroin was found on two of its London-bound aircraft.
Aviation authorities are also investigating how the drugs might be making their way on to the planes of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA).
What happened?
On 15 May, UK's Border Force officials impounded a PIA flight from Islamabad on arrival at London Heathrow airport and searched it for several hours.
The National Crime Agency later said that a quantity of heroin had been found hidden in different panels of the plane."
Here you go.


Still quite a sensationalist statement then... sounds like a drugs ring was discovered. No implication of crew in the article. Quite the opposite, the crew were let go. No mention of smuggling money. That does not mean that PIA crew are "famous" for drug or money smuggling.

That is like saying "US crew are famous for flying drunk".
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:58 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

Maybe you care to provide a source for that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-40016761
"Is heroin being smuggled on Pakistani planes into Heathrow?
By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad
24 May 2017
A London-bound state-run Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane taxies before take-off from Karachi International Airport in Karachi on 21 April, 2010
Image captionHeroin was found on two PIA flights to London (File photo)
Pakistan's national carrier says it is taking measures to ensure its planes are not used to carry drugs after heroin was found on two of its London-bound aircraft.
Aviation authorities are also investigating how the drugs might be making their way on to the planes of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA).
What happened?
On 15 May, UK's Border Force officials impounded a PIA flight from Islamabad on arrival at London Heathrow airport and searched it for several hours.
The National Crime Agency later said that a quantity of heroin had been found hidden in different panels of the plane."
Here you go.


Still quite a sensationalist statement then... sounds like a drugs ring was discovered. No implication of crew in the article. Quite the opposite, the crew were let go. No mention of smuggling money. That does not mean that PIA crew are "famous" for drug or money smuggling.

That is like saying "US crew are famous for flying drunk".

Here - drugs smuggling-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribune.co ... s/%3famp=1
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newind ... 620440.amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.geo.tv ... re-airport
https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... pak-planes

These are different cases from 2012, 2017,2018 and 2020.
Human smuggling-
https://www.dawn.com/news/1336139

If you want more , just Google.
 
egnr
Posts: 419
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:11 am

FlightRadar24 shows AP-BID is operating on its way to Manchester as PK701 this morning...

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA701/24d4d129
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
concordeforever
Posts: 121
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:18 am

egnr wrote:
FlightRadar24 shows AP-BID is operating on its way to Manchester as PK701 this morning...

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA701/24d4d129


And it operated the Heathrow flight yesterday, July 1st, I saw it land.
 
EDIGLA18
Posts: 19
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:37 am

How are they able to fly to London and Manchester? Could they have obtained special dispensation or does take a day or two for the ban to be enacted?
 
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zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:23 am

EDIGLA18 wrote:
How are they able to fly to London and Manchester? Could they have obtained special dispensation or does take a day or two for the ban to be enacted?


There was a further extension by a few days.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
lalib
Posts: 109
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:03 pm

Agree PIA brought this on themselves - National embarrassment.

Hoping more irregularities are discovered and they are banned from other countries like UAE, Saudi, Japan and Thailand - too bad their network is not so extensive.

I'm Pakistani BTW.

All airlines should be subject to an audit.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:14 pm

maint123 wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-40016761
"Is heroin being smuggled on Pakistani planes into Heathrow?
By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad
24 May 2017
A London-bound state-run Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane taxies before take-off from Karachi International Airport in Karachi on 21 April, 2010
Image captionHeroin was found on two PIA flights to London (File photo)
Pakistan's national carrier says it is taking measures to ensure its planes are not used to carry drugs after heroin was found on two of its London-bound aircraft.
Aviation authorities are also investigating how the drugs might be making their way on to the planes of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA).
What happened?
On 15 May, UK's Border Force officials impounded a PIA flight from Islamabad on arrival at London Heathrow airport and searched it for several hours.
The National Crime Agency later said that a quantity of heroin had been found hidden in different panels of the plane."
Here you go.


Still quite a sensationalist statement then... sounds like a drugs ring was discovered. No implication of crew in the article. Quite the opposite, the crew were let go. No mention of smuggling money. That does not mean that PIA crew are "famous" for drug or money smuggling.

That is like saying "US crew are famous for flying drunk".

Here - drugs smuggling-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribune.co ... s/%3famp=1
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newind ... 620440.amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.geo.tv ... re-airport
https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... pak-planes

These are different cases from 2012, 2017,2018 and 2020.
Human smuggling-
https://www.dawn.com/news/1336139

If you want more , just Google.


Thank you :)
 
citationjet
Posts: 2548
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:58 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
Maybe you care to provide a source for that?


Google has examples.
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/12/16/pia-fires-13-employees-in-heroin-smuggling-case-report/
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 838
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:00 pm

In the interest of aviation safety, are there other countries that need to be investigated for fake pilot licenses too?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
citationjet
Posts: 2548
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:11 pm

citationjet wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
Maybe you care to provide a source for that?


Google has examples.
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/12/16/pia-fires-13-employees-in-heroin-smuggling-case-report/


PIA airplane crew jailed for two years for drug smuggling:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1395433
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
777
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:21 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:02 pm

List of PIA pilots under investigation has surfaced on internet.


https://en.baaghitv.com/suspected-pia-p ... -the-list/
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:48 pm

I really hope there are no mistakes in that list... this is the kind of thing that can wreck a pilot's career
 
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zeke
Posts: 14951
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:26 am

Polot wrote:
Safety management might have been the issue with PIA that was initially on the EU’s radar, but it certainly isn’t the only one now and it is unlikely the ban will be lifted until EASA has confidence in Pakistan’s pilot certifying standards and oversight.


The EU could only ban an airline over things it has control over, which in PIAs case is the safety management system.

Pilot licences are issued by the government, not PIA.

No idea why you are trying to deliberately muddy the waters when this has been explained clearly before.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:13 am

If EASA believes that the granting of ATPLs is corrupt and that the aviation regulator isn't doing enough about it, surely EASA can ban all Pakistan based carriers due to lack of oversight ? EASA has recently imposed a country ban for all airlines based in Armenia by way of example
If EASA believes that one particular airline is more safety aware, they can grant an exception to the country ban for one or more specific airlines, as happened with Moldova. In the case of Pakistan, PIA is the only airline of any real importance to the EU.

Yes, there are rules to follow, but if EASA thinks something is sufficiently unsafe for Europeans, they will find a way to stop it and worry about the technicalities later. If for example AirBlue also flew somewhere that EASA cared about, I imagine a country ban would have appeared
 
LH658
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:43 pm

Government ran airline, that's corruptly ran. Management can't do much due to how much the government comes in and steals from PIA. Most of PIA is occupied by Political family members and supporters etc. What do you expect with airline with staff of 10000 plus and fleet of 40 aircraft more or less, that serve small number of destinations. I travel on PIA frequently, very few of my flights have been a normal calm experience.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1003
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:55 pm

Hopefully they’ll be back in the UK soon.

I have flown to Pakistan and back many times and PIA was always my first choice. Fair priced business class, fairly decent seats and decent food.
 
Antarius
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:06 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully they’ll be back in the UK soon.

I have flown to Pakistan and back many times and PIA was always my first choice. Fair priced business class, fairly decent seats and decent food.


Fairly decent seats as compared to what? Ryanair?

I can't think of many airlines with a worse longhaul product.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:56 am

Antarius wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully they’ll be back in the UK soon.

I have flown to Pakistan and back many times and PIA was always my first choice. Fair priced business class, fairly decent seats and decent food.


Fairly decent seats as compared to what? Ryanair?

I can't think of many airlines with a worse longhaul product.

I'm more concerned that neither the airline nor regulator found this issue earlier.


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Antarius
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:07 am

lightsaber wrote:
Antarius wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully they’ll be back in the UK soon.

I have flown to Pakistan and back many times and PIA was always my first choice. Fair priced business class, fairly decent seats and decent food.


Fairly decent seats as compared to what? Ryanair?

I can't think of many airlines with a worse longhaul product.

I'm more concerned that neither the airline nor regulator found this issue earlier.


Lightsaber


Of course. Although the more likely case is that it was an open secret and no one cared.

My point above was that there really is no redeeming quality of PIA. Unsafe, loses money, shitty product. The holy trifecta of being utterly forgettable when they're gone.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:35 am

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/681431 ... ar-airline
"LONDON: Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) has been downgraded to a one-star airline, the lowest rating out of a total of seven stars, by AirlineRatings.com.It is one of the top airline rating websites. The rating comes after the airline was suspected to be harboring 262 pilots with fake licenses."

Though this action says as much about the rating agency as that for PIA. So the ratings are being given on admissions from the airlines rather than a effective independent analysis.
Uk based rating agencies are in any case a complete joke, with their blatant tilt towards British companies.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1003
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:47 pm

Antarius wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Hopefully they’ll be back in the UK soon.

I have flown to Pakistan and back many times and PIA was always my first choice. Fair priced business class, fairly decent seats and decent food.


Fairly decent seats as compared to what? Ryanair?

I can't think of many airlines with a worse longhaul product.


I only flew business in PIA.

But for the price, the seats were fairly comfortable. Yes it wasn’t completely lie flat. But it reclined nicely and I could sleep well on the overnight flights back to Pakistan and I could get quite comfortable on flights back to the UK.

Isn’t economy 3-3-3 in the 777s? Surely better seats than Emirates 3-4-3.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14951
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:31 am

lightsaber wrote:
I'm more concerned that neither the airline nor regulator found this issue earlier.


Lightsaber


In reality a licence means very little to an airline, all it really means is a person passed a set of out of date theory exams, a medical, and a basic licence test.

Most airlines require a simulator assessment as part of the interview process. A licence and paper qualifications may get you into an interview, you still need to demonstrate the ability to fly.

You need to pass the type ratings and aircraft checks which are far more difficult before working for an airline.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:40 am

zeke wrote:
In reality a licence means very little to an airline, all it really means is a person passed a set of out of date theory exams, a medical, and a basic licence test.


The absence of a licence obtained in a legitimate manner (e.g. getting someone else to do something for you) indicates a person was unwilling or unable to prove they met the standards of one of more of theory exams, medical and basic licence test
 
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zeke
Posts: 14951
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:11 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
The absence of a licence obtained in a legitimate manner (e.g. getting someone else to do something for you) indicates a person was unwilling or unable to prove they met the standards of one of more of theory exams, medical and basic licence test


Not necessarily so, they may have for example went to the US for initial flight training (which is not uncommon in Pakistan and India) and come back with a FAA CPL for local conversion. As this was brought up in parliament I am assuming the announcement was made for domestic political mileage.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
bennett123
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Surely, at the least it indicates a willingness to cut corners.

Do you really want them up front?.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14951
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:54 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Surely, at the least it indicates a willingness to cut corners.

Do you really want them up front?.


It’s difficult to judge that area based upon your own experience. The levels of bureaucracy in that part of the world is unrelenting. You should see the piles of paperwork we would have to fill in and submit each time.

If the people never sat exams, flight test, medical, simulator rides etc, sure I wouldn’t want them near an aircraft. If it is the case like I suggested they earned a FAA licence etc, the issue may be more of bureaucracy rather than ability.

When these sort of matters are raised in parliament for point scoring it smells to me. A normal jurisdiction would simply ground the people until the anomaly is fixed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:40 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

I only flew business in PIA.

But for the price, the seats were fairly comfortable. Yes it wasn’t completely lie flat. But it reclined nicely and I could sleep well on the overnight flights back to Pakistan and I could get quite comfortable on flights back to the UK.

Isn’t economy 3-3-3 in the 777s? Surely better seats than Emirates 3-4-3.


No ways pia

Least 343 on EK is with safe pilots and better cabin product than 333 with fake pilots at PIA.

How anyone's can the claim Pia has better economy is odd. No the ways. :shock:
 
factsonly
Posts: 2925
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Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:13 pm

So it is now Sunday July 5th, 2020, and PIA is still operating through EASA airpace to Canada.
PK783 operated through Finnish, Swedish and Norwegian airspace today.

- LHE - YYZ PK783 B772 AP-BGY

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA783/24dae398

This flight is likely to return from YYZ to Pakistan through EASA airpace on July 6th.

And.....are other nations (Canada) about to follow EU decision making, or not ??

Anyone???
 
peterinlisbon
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:44 pm

factsonly wrote:
behramjee wrote:
UK CAA has also now banned PIA from MAN BHX LHR effective tomorrow.



Wednesday July 1st, 2020:

There is a PIA flight en-route to LHR.

- PK785 ISB 12.06 - LHR 16.00 B77W AP-BID

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA785/24d2cedf

Question is....... will Pakistan take retaliatory action against EU carriers and ban overflights.

Possibly not, as there is a technical cause, not a political one.


That would be stupid, because by doing so they'd cut themselves off from all direct services to/from Europe and they're not such a big country that airlines can't just fly around them without too much inconvenience. I think they'd be better off sending their pilots to go and get FAA/EASA licenses whilst they sort out the mess.
 
SueD
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:27 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
factsonly wrote:
behramjee wrote:
UK CAA has also now banned PIA from MAN BHX LHR effective tomorrow.



Wednesday July 1st, 2020:

There is a PIA flight en-route to LHR.

- PK785 ISB 12.06 - LHR 16.00 B77W AP-BID

https://www.flightradar24.com/PIA785/24d2cedf

Question is....... will Pakistan take retaliatory action against EU carriers and ban overflights.

Possibly not, as there is a technical cause, not a political one.


That would be stupid, because by doing so they'd cut themselves off from all direct services to/from Europe and they're not such a big country that airlines can't just fly around them without too much inconvenience. I think they'd be better off sending their pilots to go and get FAA/EASA licenses whilst they sort out the mess.


Overflights unlikely, however to route over the ocean isn’t out of the question is it; after all it has been done during the recent low level conflict with India .
Only carrier operating from Europe is BA and i doubt they would be bothered if they were instructed to cancel flights once again and after their hiatus of a decade or so based on prevailing security grounds.

Personally I could see the entire Pakistan aviation sector finding itself sectioned by the EU to be honest. Already Shaheen were excluded for dire maintenance and documentation , and Airblue couldn’t run a p**s-up in a brewery . (Yes not a very Islamic statement)
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:04 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I only flew business in PIA.

But for the price, the seats were fairly comfortable. Yes it wasn’t completely lie flat. But it reclined nicely and I could sleep well on the overnight flights back to Pakistan and I could get quite comfortable on flights back to the UK.

Isn’t economy 3-3-3 in the 777s? Surely better seats than Emirates 3-4-3.


No ways pia

Least 343 on EK is with safe pilots and better cabin product than 333 with fake pilots at PIA.

How anyone's can the claim Pia has better economy is odd. No the ways. :shock:



I know of neither EK or PIA’s economy product. Merely pointed out 3-4-3 v 3-3-3.
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:24 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I only flew business in PIA.

But for the price, the seats were fairly comfortable. Yes it wasn’t completely lie flat. But it reclined nicely and I could sleep well on the overnight flights back to Pakistan and I could get quite comfortable on flights back to the UK.

Isn’t economy 3-3-3 in the 777s? Surely better seats than Emirates 3-4-3.


No ways pia

Least 343 on EK is with safe pilots and better cabin product than 333 with fake pilots at PIA.

How anyone's can the claim Pia has better economy is odd. No the ways. :shock:



I know of neither EK or PIA’s economy product. Merely pointed out 3-4-3 v 3-3-3.


Ek is far safest than pia.

Would never fly pai. Shudder!!
 
Retaliation
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:52 pm

Re: PIA banned from Europe

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:25 pm

Toinou wrote:
Retaliation wrote:
This is regarding ATPLs . Not the CPLs. The regulatory authority CAA Pakistan is to blame.
Secondly there is 'quota' system in place in Pakistan which makes sure there are no deserving candidates to make their way to become pilots in PIA.

What can you expect from employees selected on the basis of language, nepotism, provincialism, racism and political influence?
Imagine engineers and pilots appointed on racial backgrounds for a business which requires extremely skilled and intelligent people for the safety of its passengers but if anyone cares..... pia for you.


Can you elaborate a bit about that quota system ?


I can give an Estimate of how people are 'selected' from different parts of Pakistan .

60% from Punjab, Around 15% from Sind Villages, 15% from NWFP, 5% from Balochistan , 2% from Karachi (which is the most populous city in pakistan) and 2% Employees are inducted on merit. The Nepotism culture is rampant in PIA. i have seen 10 Family members All working for the airline in different departments because the head of their family was an active Employee Union member. This is not just the case with PIA. Every govt. organization in pakistan works the same way.
Ever heard of a gardener working as Aircraft Technician for the national Airline ?

EASA should seriously think twice before letting them fly again into their airspace.

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