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zkncj
Posts: 3872
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:30 am

NZ is limiting International flights at 50 passengers/flight (at the request of the New Zealand Governent).

So social distancing is really an issue anymore on an 789 with only around 50 people onboard.

On domestic all social distancing and convid restrictions are now removed, although New Zealand currently has no community trans mission of COVID19.
 
Gwened
Posts: 7
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Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 am

Flew a domestic France roundtrip on V7, both flights 98% packed.
Mask mandatory, no food/beverage service, FA needed to be called to use lavatory (no queueing allowed).

What concerned me is that mask was not mandatory for young children.
And of course, I ended up on a seat next to a very active child both ways!
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:16 am

Social distancing on an a/c isn't practical. For the life of me I don't understand people that fly than complain about the lack of social distancing. Even if middle seats are blocked there won't be social distancing. Including at usually crowded gate areas. No one is forced to fly.
 
jamsco99
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:02 am

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:55 am

I flew yesterday. Masks mandatory as per UK legislation.
No middle seats blocked.
Food and bev service as normal
No queueing for toilet - have to wait until vacant before leaving seat.
On exiting we were told to only stand up once the row in front had exited the aircraft (no one did, it was the standard disembarking).

Whilst queueing for automatic passport gates in the UK, we were told to "keep moving" and to "use all space". No social distancing at all
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:16 pm

22 inches separation? What type of plane has 22 inches in the middle seat? Surely not a 3-3-3 787 or 3-4-3 777!
 
CRJ5000
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:06 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:41 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Your chances of getting infected on a packed flight are close to 100% when departing out of a place with confirmed infections of 1% of population like most of the USA.
1% of population confirmed = 10% of population infected = someone in your half row or the half rows in front or behind you is infected.

If you are lucky, you won't be infected but exposure is a certainty.

Airlines are in this crisis what banks were during the 2008 financial crisis.

Everyone has to fend for themselves.
I personally wore a hazmat facial protection on my flight the other day.

I discussed how the industry is being negligent in the below thread:


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1447661

According to the clowns who regulate our aviation industries, ie FAA and EASA, there is no problem filling aircraft to capacity as long as everyone wears their seat belt when the sign is on.

The health and safety of the crew and passenger is secundary to corporate profits (or limiting their losses) . Billions spent on textbooks, SOP's, regulations, training, in the name of safety, but when you step on a plane in times of Covid, you are on your own.


Come on. I've flown in and out of south Florida at least a dozen times since the pandemic started, as recently as last week. Numerous times I was on full flights, and was in the middle seat on 2 occasions. I have not contracted Covid, and that's flying to and from the epicenter of the pandemic right now. I was curious if I may have had it and not known so I got antibody tested. Nope, negative.
To say it's close to 100% that you'll be infected is fear mongering and totally inaccurate.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:04 pm

I flew AA for the first time since COVID-19 this past weekend, on LGA-DFW-LGA. The flight was maybe 25% full on the outbound, and about 35%-40% full on my return flight. Everyone in coach had a row of 3 seats to themselves, unless they were a family traveling together. On my return flight, a man across the aisle from me one row behind me was sniffling and snorting, like he had a cold. I kept hearing the sniffling and I had to look around to see where it was coming from. The man had his mask around his chin, and so I got my bag in the overhead bin and moved forward to a row that was further away from him. I told one of the flight attendants that I had moved from my original seat, and she was fine with it.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3660
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Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:20 pm

panamair wrote:
In the US currently, four airlines have policies to block middle seats and impose seating capacity limits: Delta, Southwest, JetBlue and Alaska.


you can add Hawaiian to that list as well...no one really knows about it because of their size, but still counts

https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/r ... g-measures
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:30 pm

I live in Miami Dade. I have a brother in Ft Myers and another brother in Tampa. We are ages 58-62 so our friends/acquaintances are in our age range. None of us know anyone that has been diagnosed with COVID or know anyone that knows anyone that has been diagnosed with COVID. The idea that people in South Florida/Florida are all sick is total nonsense.

Most healthy people that contract COVID will have no symptoms, mild symptoms or perhaps a flu. The group that will need hospitalization or even die is almost always the elderly, those with significant health issues and/or the poor. There are exceptions of course like any disease/virus. South Florida in particular has an abundance of citizens that fall into those categories. Also reported today is that younger people (under 40) that experience severe conditions are often heavy smokers. No shortage of 30 somethings puffing away on several packs a day. If you come to Florida, even Miami, and you are not in an at risk group you're more at risk driving on Florida roads than dying of COVID 19.

If you're like my one brother and his wife, both of which were very overweight at start of this, you immediately seek a better lifestyle. Both of them got sacred but through better eating and exercise (they walk several times a day and now play tennis in the mornings) have lost considerable weight.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:57 pm

santi319 wrote:
Just a reminder that the middle seat is 22 inches and you still have people front and back.

Social distance in a commercial airplane is an oxymoron in my opinion..


This kind of propaganda needs to stop. There is now study showing blocking middle seat cuts rate of infection by half.

Front and back has the seat themselves blocking transmission. Aerosol transmission isn't a concern for that due to HEPA filter. For side to side. From the middle of window to middle of aisle seat is 2 seats + 2 hand rails, over 40 inch of space. There is data out now how mask reduces range of transmission.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Na3gjzADw
even wearing bandana reduce range of droplet on coughing to 3 feet . Cone like mask reduce range of droplet to 8 inches. There is clear values in having middle seat blocked when people have their masks on.
 
CRJ5000
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:58 pm

Going back to the poster who states "you have a 100% chance of getting Covid on a packed flight coming from a hotspot"...

MIT says you have a 1 in 4300 chance of contracting it when on a flight with the middle seats filled. 1 in 430,000 chance of dying from it. Maybe MIT doesn't know what they're talking about and you've done more research though.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/benbaldanz ... c06b3760a8
 
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LAXintl
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:37 pm

US plans on keeping the borders with Canada and Mexico closed to non-essential travel for at least another month, according to reports. The current mutual agreement between the U.S. and its neighbors was set to expire on July 21.

US Borders with Canada, Mexico to Remain Closed Until August
https://knx1070.radio.com/articles/radi ... -august-21
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
boilerla
Posts: 421
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 am

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:49 pm

tphuang wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Just a reminder that the middle seat is 22 inches and you still have people front and back.

Social distance in a commercial airplane is an oxymoron in my opinion..

There is clear values in having middle seat blocked when people have their masks on.

*when people have their masks on* is a key part. I had to fly out of LAX last week due a family emergency. In the airport, lots of people "dropping" their masks. On the 4 hour flight, my seat mate took their mask off entirely to casually sip their complimentary water, then pulled out a Diet Coke. For the 4 hours I'd say they had their mask on for half the flight, if that. The person across from me was wearing a bandana mask (which has been proven to be a completely ineffective face covering.) that was flapping around with the air conditioning turned on.

Social distancing can help, masks can help but flights don't lend themselves to either.
 
santi319
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:53 pm

boilerla wrote:
tphuang wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Just a reminder that the middle seat is 22 inches and you still have people front and back.

Social distance in a commercial airplane is an oxymoron in my opinion..

There is clear values in having middle seat blocked when people have their masks on.

*when people have their masks on* is a key part. I had to fly out of LAX last week due a family emergency. In the airport, lots of people "dropping" their masks. On the 4 hour flight, my seat mate took their mask off entirely to casually sip their complimentary water, then pulled out a Diet Coke. For the 4 hours I'd say they had their mask on for half the flight, if that. The person across from me was wearing a bandana mask (which has been proven to be a completely ineffective face covering.) that was flapping around with the air conditioning turned on.

Social distancing can help, masks can help but flights don't lend themselves to either.


This study is causing people to talk because of headlines that say things like “Filling Middle Seats of Airplanes Doubles Risk.” This kind of sensational headline has no context, and it “sells copies” as newspaper people use to say but now “creates clicks.” I have read the study and found it compelling, and I assume it is methodologically sound and am willing to believe the results. What I found surprising was the comment from Professor Arnold Barnett: "Everything's riskier these days, so the question is, what do you want to compare it to," Barnett said. "I don't know whether or not one wants to treat the risk as low." He admitted that the study was “rough,” so does an MIT professor really not know if someone should treat this risk as low? As an economist who looks at risk in many contexts, I believe that comparing this is exactly what must be done. In fact, Professor Barnett qualifies his results in the paper by stating “However, data from late June 2020 imply that approximately 1 in 120 Americans have Covid-19 on a given day (i.e., 40,000 confirmed cases per day x 10 x 7 days is about 1/120 of the US population of 330,000,000). Thus, it is not clear that the risk of getting infected during a flight is any higher than the risk associated with everyday activities during the pandemic.” This is fair and accurate and better puts this risk into perspective.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/benbaldanz ... g-is-safe/

I stand by what I say: commercial airplane travel and social distance do not go with each other. The masks and the sanitizing and most important the HEPA filter will suffice in protecting customers. Perhaps adding a temperature check even. But social distance in a metal tube? I mean..
 
bennett123
Posts: 9737
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:57 pm

For the last two months, I have been working in a hospital.

My job entailed being in patients room (bedroom).

Some of the patients were either suspected or confirmed COVID.

PPE was a surgical mask, (like you see surgeons wear).

Information that I was given is that these masks are effective.

I was told that they should be replaced after four hours.

The key is that should cover nose AND mouth.
 
tu204
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:10 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Your chances of getting infected on a packed flight are close to 100% when departing out of a place with confirmed infections of 1% of population like most of the USA.
1% of population confirmed = 10% of population infected = someone in your half row or the half rows in front or behind you is infected.

If you are lucky, you won't be infected but exposure is a certainty.

Airlines are in this crisis what banks were during the 2008 financial crisis.

Everyone has to fend for themselves.
I personally wore a hazmat facial protection on my flight the other day.

I discussed how the industry is being negligent in the below thread:


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1447661

According to the clowns who regulate our aviation industries, ie FAA and EASA, there is no problem filling aircraft to capacity as long as everyone wears their seat belt when the sign is on.

The health and safety of the crew and passenger is secundary to corporate profits (or limiting their losses) . Billions spent on textbooks, SOP's, regulations, training, in thr name of safety, but when you step on a plane in times of Covid, you are on your own.

100% are you crazy. Not even 100% of married couples get it from their spouse.


While yes, I don't think there will be much difference if you block the middle seat or not.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Miamiairport
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:32 pm

Not to go OT but I'm assuming masks aren't made to be worn full time and should be constantly replaced and/or cleaned. For some people like me (and probably millions more) breathing out of a mask is hell. Not to mention walking around in the summer heat. Naturally people aren't going to wear the mask properly or keep it adequately cleaned or replaced. And few are going to wear the Darth Vader shield unless people are getting really sick in droves.

Blocking a middle seat also probably has minimal effect. The length between an aisle and window seat is not even close to 6 feet. (And even the 6 feet separation is questionable). Much of this is no different than the TSA Security theater that we endure.It's meant to make people feel good but has little value in reality. Your best defense? Stay healthy and practice good lifestyle patterns, particularly if you don't want to spend you life hidden inside your home.
 
smartplane
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:05 pm

CRJ5000 wrote:
Going back to the poster who states "you have a 100% chance of getting Covid on a packed flight coming from a hotspot"...

MIT says you have a 1 in 4300 chance of contracting it when on a flight with the middle seats filled. 1 in 430,000 chance of dying from it. Maybe MIT doesn't know what they're talking about and you've done more research though.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/benbaldanz ... c06b3760a8

Who do you believe? Who funded the MIT study? What were the terms of reference?

Initially, IATA recommended (based on WHO) only 1 passenger per 3 seats, unless a family group, with no passengers in aisle seats to reduce the risk to seated passengers from passing crew and passengers heading to toilets. Airlines soon lobbied for that guidance to be softened.

IATA also recommended (again based on WHO), cabin air should be set to maximum new / minimum recirculated, with frequency of filter replacement increased, with higher grade filtration material. Airline and OEM response was swift and predictable.

A now retired family member who was working in an infectious diseases lab when SARS, bird flu and others were around, highlights for those who recover, whether they had symptoms or not at the time, collateral organ damage was a real issue. Vaccines and mitigation medicines developed for these almost universally, even where successful, mimicked the same collateral organ damage. That's why they are only administered to mitigate those with serious symptoms, not yet for preventative purposes.

Unless you absolutely have to travel, don't, and leave your children at home. Wear a mask and glasses when in a confined space. Don't touch your mask, and replace often, but only when in a clear space well aware from others. Don't share a box of masks at home or work - each have your own supply.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airlines practicing social distancing in their cabins

Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:21 pm

santi319 wrote:
boilerla wrote:
tphuang wrote:
There is clear values in having middle seat blocked when people have their masks on.

*when people have their masks on* is a key part. I had to fly out of LAX last week due a family emergency. In the airport, lots of people "dropping" their masks. On the 4 hour flight, my seat mate took their mask off entirely to casually sip their complimentary water, then pulled out a Diet Coke. For the 4 hours I'd say they had their mask on for half the flight, if that. The person across from me was wearing a bandana mask (which has been proven to be a completely ineffective face covering.) that was flapping around with the air conditioning turned on.

Social distancing can help, masks can help but flights don't lend themselves to either.


This study is causing people to talk because of headlines that say things like “Filling Middle Seats of Airplanes Doubles Risk.” This kind of sensational headline has no context, and it “sells copies” as newspaper people use to say but now “creates clicks.” I have read the study and found it compelling, and I assume it is methodologically sound and am willing to believe the results. What I found surprising was the comment from Professor Arnold Barnett: "Everything's riskier these days, so the question is, what do you want to compare it to," Barnett said. "I don't know whether or not one wants to treat the risk as low." He admitted that the study was “rough,” so does an MIT professor really not know if someone should treat this risk as low? As an economist who looks at risk in many contexts, I believe that comparing this is exactly what must be done. In fact, Professor Barnett qualifies his results in the paper by stating “However, data from late June 2020 imply that approximately 1 in 120 Americans have Covid-19 on a given day (i.e., 40,000 confirmed cases per day x 10 x 7 days is about 1/120 of the US population of 330,000,000). Thus, it is not clear that the risk of getting infected during a flight is any higher than the risk associated with everyday activities during the pandemic.” This is fair and accurate and better puts this risk into perspective.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/benbaldanz ... g-is-safe/

I stand by what I say: commercial airplane travel and social distance do not go with each other. The masks and the sanitizing and most important the HEPA filter will suffice in protecting customers. Perhaps adding a temperature check even. But social distance in a metal tube? I mean..


Right, so your risk of contracting disease is cut by half when middle seat blocked. Given that most people do not want to catch this virus, why would they not fly an airline that have middle seat blocked?

More importantly, there are still people that don't wear masks for periods of time on their flight. Why would you not protect yourself when picking airlines? I will take my chances with a nicely sealed surgical mask and 3.5 to 4 inches away from someone not wearing a mask vs someone not wearing mask 1/2 that distance from me.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:07 pm

Want to have middle seats blocked? I'd be game. My issue is that middle seats would be blocked and other precautions, the $29 o/w fares would continue and airlines would become wards of the taxpayer. So if you want this then you should be ready to pay for sharply increased airfares and the end of the BE fare. Personally I'm tired of airlines charging well below their cost of operation, expanding capacity and then a few weeks into this come crying to the government for bailout money.
 
CRJ5000
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:06 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:16 pm

smartplane wrote:
CRJ5000 wrote:
Going back to the poster who states "you have a 100% chance of getting Covid on a packed flight coming from a hotspot"...

MIT says you have a 1 in 4300 chance of contracting it when on a flight with the middle seats filled. 1 in 430,000 chance of dying from it. Maybe MIT doesn't know what they're talking about and you've done more research though.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/benbaldanz ... c06b3760a8

Who do you believe? Who funded the MIT study? What were the terms of reference?

Initially, IATA recommended (based on WHO) only 1 passenger per 3 seats, unless a family group, with no passengers in aisle seats to reduce the risk to seated passengers from passing crew and passengers heading to toilets. Airlines soon lobbied for that guidance to be softened.

IATA also recommended (again based on WHO), cabin air should be set to maximum new / minimum recirculated, with frequency of filter replacement increased, with higher grade filtration material. Airline and OEM response was swift and predictable.

A now retired family member who was working in an infectious diseases lab when SARS, bird flu and others were around, highlights for those who recover, whether they had symptoms or not at the time, collateral organ damage was a real issue. Vaccines and mitigation medicines developed for these almost universally, even where successful, mimicked the same collateral organ damage. That's why they are only administered to mitigate those with serious symptoms, not yet for preventative purposes.

Unless you absolutely have to travel, don't, and leave your children at home. Wear a mask and glasses when in a confined space. Don't touch your mask, and replace often, but only when in a clear space well aware from others. Don't share a box of masks at home or work - each have your own supply.


Yes, things have changed as we've learned more about the virus. As long as we're talking about what was initially recommended, lets not forget that the initial recommendations from the CDC that masks were ineffective and were only recommended for those showing symptoms and for those taking care of someone who was sick. I still wear it at all times for those around me, and won't complain about that. Times change. We learn more about the risks. Everything is now riskier. We need to do risk assess everything and decide which risks are OK.
In my opinion, mandating that middle seats stay open would require subsidizing. I think there's better things to waste money on than that right now.
As it is now, consumers have the option. You can only fly on carriers blocking middle seats, you can purchase the seat next to you on airlines that aren't blocking if it is important to you, or you can just hope the middle seat is open and deal with it if its not.
The airline essentially "pays" for the middle seat being empty. They aren't in the financial position to continue that long term. I can understand doing it until 9/30 as the government did subsidize their payroll until then. After that, if it's important to someone, they should be willing to pay for it instead of expecting someone else to foot the bill.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:07 pm

EU review of easing border closures recommends most nations remain blacklisted. Previously list of 15 green light external countries was actually reduced to 13 with Serbia and Montenegro removed results of infection rates in those states. Next review due in 2-weeks.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ave-a-risk
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2985
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:00 am

One thing I'll be curious about as to the post-pandemic future of the airline industry are the changes to the structure of finances for carriers. If anything, this crisis has shown just how susceptible Airlines are to geopolitical events, and I wonder if airlines and shareholders will now place greater emphasis on having the financial liquidity and capital in being able to ride out, say, a year of catastrophic downturn.
 
TXL4ever
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:21 am

Re: COVID-19 News and Reference Thread

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:54 am

TheSpaceCadet wrote:
Reduction in commercial flights due to COVID-19 leading to less accurate weather forecasts:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 101026.htm


That is quite remarkable - not the fact that there is less accurate forecasts available- no, I was not aware about actual weather data taken inflight being fed into the multiple weather centers. Thought that except for pure aviation-related purposes (pilot reports for the benefit of other pilots) it was more like a one-way road
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:19 pm

This kind of slipped through a few days ago. I don't know how big the impact is, but apparently the US is now relaxing the Schengen/UK/Ireland travel ban a little by allowing in certain student visas, academics, specialists, senior business leaders/execs etc:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/u ... reland-uk/
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:12 pm

On the ballot for Miami Dade voters is to give funding to the Miami Airport Authority to test all arriving paxs for COVID 19. Won't that be a total cluster? Not to mention the cost it will heap on airlines, particularly AA, and drive down traffic to Miami/Miami Beach. If passed I wouldn't be surprise to see FLL pass a similar resolution. The winter season for South Florida is beginning to look non existent. And winter season is when the big bucks are spent.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 4791
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:36 pm

Effective Wednesday, July 22nd, Bahamas will bar commercial passenger flights and cruise ships from U.S. Bahamasair will cease U.S. services.
Only commercial flights from Canada, UK, and EU will be permitted.

https://bahamaspress.com/pm-set-a-new-c ... or-health/
mercure f-wtcc
 
smokeybandit
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:47 pm

Yet they'll allow private flights and pleasure crafts. What's the point of banning commercial air if you don't ban other means of entry, too?
 
9Patch
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:33 pm

William Alderman who specializes in representing small suppliers and aftermarket companies told Leeham News and Analysis :

...some of his clients don’t see business recovery for 10 years. This is a different metric than the one most often cited: air traffic returning to pre-COVID levels in 2023-24, by most accounts.

The article behind the paywall but there is a summary available to non-subscribers:
https://leehamnews.com/2020/07/20/as-fe ... lood-bath/
 
PoleHillSid
Posts: 62
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:11 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Yet they'll allow private flights and pleasure crafts. What's the point of banning commercial air if you don't ban other means of entry, too?


Maybe the type of people who can afford these methods of travel aren't the type of people they want to turn down?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4969
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Yet they'll allow private flights and pleasure crafts. What's the point of banning commercial air if you don't ban other means of entry, too?

If you show up on a yacht you’ll prolly put a lot into the slot.

Maybe they have the testing resource for a smaller number?
 
KBUF
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:12 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:58 am

AA (effective Wednesday 7/29) and WN (effective Monday 7/27) are updating their mask policies to require all passengers (with the exception of children under 2) to wear one while onboard. Those who cannot wear a mask for medical reasons will have to find alternate travel arrangements:

AA release: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
WN release: https://www.swamedia.com/releases/relea ... ing-policy
 
75driver
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: COVID-19 News and Reference Thread

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:23 pm

2nd2none wrote:
TSA checkpoint travel numbers:

July 23 2020:

704,815 (2020)

2,705,399 (2019)

26.05 %

https://www.tsa.gov/coronavirus/passenger-throughput


Thanks for continuing to post these. Looks like we have a consistent 3 week trend and it somewhat correlates to TSA numbers pre-COVId. The busiest days in 2019 (>2.6 MIL) are coming in mid/upper 20% and the less heavy days in 2019 (<2.5MIL) lower 20%. The current new norm might be starting to get established.
 
smokeybandit
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:34 pm

I took my first post-covid flights this weekend. I was impressed with how clean the planes were. Even the tracks for the seats no longer had crumbs and gunk in them.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:32 am

Some news from HKG.

IATA opposes the requirement that aircrew to take a virus test before they fly and have proof of a negative result.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/art ... w-covid-19

FedEx pilots union also asking the airline to suspend service to HKG after three of its pilots tested positive and forced into government quarantine.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... ny-suspend

I can't really blame HK authorities. They previously confirmed a cluster of infections tied to pilot arriving from Kazakhstan. Being a crew member does not exempt one from getting or spreading the virus.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
avgeekjohn
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 2:24 pm

Turkish Airlines Announces Paycuts

Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:55 pm

Turkish Airlines has announced that it will slash employee pay, undoing the increases it had planned to implement through next year. But this will also help it avoid layoffs through 2021. Thoughts?

Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/29/tur ... d-layoffs/
Holding short of life's runway
 
dabc
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 pm

Air Algerie started on July 20 new repatriation flights from several countries around the world
AH operated flights to Algeria from France (ORY, LYS, MRS, ETZ, BOD, TLS, LIL, MPL), LHR, BRU, FRA, FCO, SVO, KBP, AMM, CAI, DOH, MCT, JED, RUH, KUL, YUL
Today AH flight 2914 ( A332 7T-KVB) landed in DCA
 
dcajet
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:08 am

Alitalia is returning to one of the key destinations on its network, Buenos Aires EZE in September. Initially 2x w, to be upped to 3x w in October. Interestingly, the plane will remain at EZE for 30 hours, I'd imagine to allow time for the same crew to rest and fly back the same plane to its FCO base.

Image
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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mercure1
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:01 pm

EU again extends ban on U.S. visitors for another month.

Following nations are greenlighted for entry into bloc
> Australia
> Canada
> Georgia
> Japan
> Morocco
> New Zealand
> Rwanda
> South Korea
> Thailand
> Tunisia
> Uruguay
> China, subject to confirmation of reciprocity

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/ne ... 546206002/
mercure f-wtcc
 
Capricorn
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:49 pm

At French Airports they are going to introduce a testing scheme for travellers arriving from at risk countries.

Travellers from the other 12 high risk countries - South Africa, Algeria, Brazil, India, Israel, Kuwait, Madagascar, Oman, Peru, Qatar, Serbia and Turkey - are advised to take the test before travelling, but can take the test at their French airport of arrival if they are unable to obtain one before they travel.


https://www.thelocal.fr/20200730/americ ... id-19-test

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/france-rea ... s/45940130

Ironically this also affects Switzerland as BSL is located on French soil and will be affected by this rule. Initially waiting time after arrival is going to be very long since it takes a considerable amount of time to test everyone. Currently it is assumed that due to the rule change not many travellers have taken the test at their place of origin and therefore have to take the test on arrival.

Germany is planing the same for holiday makers returning from at risk countries. This will most likely further curb the already weak leisure demand and force airlines as well as leisure travellers to be more flexible.

Mandatory testing for people returning from high-risk areas is likely to come into force next week. The Federal Doctors Association has warned a follow-up test would be necessary five days after the initial one to ensure the accuracy of the first result, the association's chief, Ute Teichert, told German media.


https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-testing/a-54353244
 
dcajet
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:40 pm

dcajet wrote:
GOL has released a soft schedule of its return to its largest international market, Argentina.

September to November
* 2x d GRU-EZE
* 4x w GIG-EZE
* 4x w GIG-COR
* 4x w GIG-ROS

From November onward
* 3x d GRU-EZE
* 2x d GIG-EZE
COR & ROS with no changes

From December onward
* GRU-MDZ frequency TBD

https://www.sirchandler.com.ar/2020/06/ ... eptiembre/


GOL delays its return to Argentina from the planned September date. With the new dates, Buenos Aires EZE (and Montevideo MVD) will now see GOL service from Sao Paulo GRU. Rio de Janeiro GIG to EZE will only be in December, together with service to Cordoba COR, Mendoza MDZ and Rosario ROS.

Not related to Argentina:

ASU, LIM, SCL and VVI from GRU are now delayed until November.

MCO, MIA, CUN, PUJ and SCL (from GIG) are now delayed until December.

The reason appears to be the dismal demand for travel to/from Brazil.

https://www.sirchandler.com.ar/2020/07/ ... diciembre/
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
santi319
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:01 am

mercure1 wrote:
EU again extends ban on U.S. visitors for another month.

Following nations are greenlighted for entry into bloc
> Australia
> Canada
> Georgia
> Japan
> Morocco
> New Zealand
> Rwanda
> South Korea
> Thailand
> Tunisia
> Uruguay
> China, subject to confirmation of reciprocity

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/ne ... 546206002/


I believe this is reviewed every two weeks not monthly.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 880
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - July 2020

Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:15 am

LAXintl wrote:
Some news from HKG.

IATA opposes the requirement that aircrew to take a virus test before they fly and have proof of a negative result.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/art ... w-covid-19

FedEx pilots union also asking the airline to suspend service to HKG after three of its pilots tested positive and forced into government quarantine.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... ny-suspend

I can't really blame HK authorities. They previously confirmed a cluster of infections tied to pilot arriving from Kazakhstan. Being a crew member does not exempt one from getting or spreading the virus.

Australia has also had clusters created by international aircrews, with hotel staffers not following the cleaning policies.
 
altairF28
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:41 pm

October 1 station cuts

Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:18 am

With the CARES act minimum service requirements set to expire September 30 most people are expecting airlines to whack stations right and left. I realize this is unprecedented so it may not be clear what's going to happen but I have a couple questions about certain potential procedures.

1. Normally airlines announce station closures a couple of months before they are scheduled to take effect. Are airlines allowed to announce station closures this month or next month, will airlines announce cuts October 1 to take effect immediately, or will they announce cuts on October 1 to take effect at a later date? And if they have to do the latter will they go back to their April M.O. of cancelling flights day of until the new schedules can take effect?

2. I know the EAS program is not accepting any new cities but if a city loses all their airlines would the government make an exception and allow these cities to apply for EAS status or would they be wiped off the service map? I'm especially thinking about if it's a decent sized city like say AVP, GRB or FWA (note that I'm not predicting any of those cities to lose all their cities; they were just ones that came to mind). Also do we think a reasonable number of cities would lose all their service or would one airline per city stick around?
A detour is a choice between two tasks, each with its own pros and cons
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24620
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Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - August 2020

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:47 pm

Porter delaying the resumption of service until October 7th now.

Image

https://s3.amazonaws.com/eporter.flypor ... index.html
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Cedar
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 am

Re: October 1 station cuts

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:18 pm

altairF28 wrote:
With the CARES act minimum service requirements set to expire September 30 most people are expecting airlines to whack stations right and left. I realize this is unprecedented so it may not be clear what's going to happen but I have a couple questions about certain potential procedures.

1. Normally airlines announce station closures a couple of months before they are scheduled to take effect. Are airlines allowed to announce station closures this month or next month, will airlines announce cuts October 1 to take effect immediately, or will they announce cuts on October 1 to take effect at a later date? And if they have to do the latter will they go back to their April M.O. of cancelling flights day of until the new schedules can take effect?

2. I know the EAS program is not accepting any new cities but if a city loses all their airlines would the government make an exception and allow these cities to apply for EAS status or would they be wiped off the service map? I'm especially thinking about if it's a decent sized city like say AVP, GRB or FWA (note that I'm not predicting any of those cities to lose all their cities; they were just ones that came to mind). Also do we think a reasonable number of cities would lose all their service or would one airline per city stick around?


Due to service contract with various airport authorities & vendors at airports - most airlines are obligated to give notice of atleast 30 days prior to closure. However, whether or not the airline chooses to uphold their side of the contract is up to them. There could be penalties, but that penalty may be worth the continued loss in revenue (if that is the reason for closure).
Now, that being said - in the current situation - many airport authorities & vendors have been very more understanding & lenient and have not kicked up much fuss.

Take for example Virgin Atlantic who announced the shut down of EWR effective immediately on March 16th.

Cedar
 
dcajet
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - August 2020

Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:22 pm

Emirates suspends Buenos Aires EZE and Rio de Janeiro GIG. The airline was due to return to the DXB-GIG-EZE route in September but says now that the route is suspended until "when it is commercially and operationally feasible"

https://aviacionline.com/2020/08/emirat ... argentina/
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24620
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - August 2020

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:06 pm

Hawaii may again delay reopening as COVID-19 cases continue to climb. Also the planned testing program for arrivals running late due inadequate supplies and testing equipment.

https://simpleflying.com/hawaii-reopening-delay/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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ojjunior
Posts: 963
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - August 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:55 am

Looks like Delta has resumed its ATL-GRU service since yesterday.

Albeit not daily as before.

https://fr24.com/DAL105/251fbffc
 
Capricorn
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: COVID-19 Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - August 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:46 am

Some positive aviation news, U2 wants to offer more flights because of positive forward bookings.

EasyJet has expanded its summer schedule after better-than-expected demand and says it plans to operate about 1,000 flights a day in August.

The budget carrier said popular destinations included Faro and Nice, along with city breaks such as Amsterdam and Paris. EasyJet will have 210 planes flying this month and expects to operate 40% of its capacity between July and September, higher than the 30% predicted at its first-half results.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... rus-travel

Hopefully with a stable C19 situation as well as management air travel will again reach 50% of 2019 level this winter. I think that is achievable.

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