Irish 7/20

Fliplot · Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:20 pm

It gets a tad tiring being lectured to all the time! Why is the Givernment only responsible for everything? EI has a powerful parent who has some obligations to EI too. There are many industries with shareholders - they must bear some responsibility too - after all they also share the profits! There is only so much that Ireland can borrow.
So much negativity! It's not an Irish priblem, it's truly global! For examole LX can run 11 flight per week to Zurich, yet EI none? Wht?

OA260 · Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:57 pm

Fliplot wrote:
It gets a tad tiring being lectured to all the time! Why is the Givernment only responsible for everything? EI has a powerful parent who has some obligations to EI too. There are many industries with shareholders - they must bear some responsibility too - after all they also share the profits! There is only so much that Ireland can borrow.
So much negativity! It's not an Irish priblem, it's truly global! For examole LX can run 11 flight per week to Zurich, yet EI none? Wht?

The problem is the government are whats causing the flights going out near empty . Many routes have under 40 passengers which in fairness cant be sustained. Also nearly everyone in my daily life I speak to have now written off this year ( as predicted early on ) and thats another massive blow to Aer Lingus and Ryanair being the biggest carriers at DUB. I dont expect them to run empty flights if demand is not there . Some of those LX flights have gone out with 15 passengers on !

The government should open up travel to countries of a similar risk to Ireland. Sure if they need to keep the USA flight ban for another few months so be it and any other country that has lost control . Opening up to safer countries would be a good first step.

EIEIDW · Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 am

Any ideas as to why EI-GAJ is currently operating DUB-LHR?

BrianDromey · Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:40 am

EIBusiness wrote:

Very well put IrishTexan - but sadly we are not going to see any balance in the reporting in Ireland - because something is needed to distract from the fact that Ireland is on course to suffer one of the most significant economic contractions of any western nation arising from the policy inaction of the government. Just tonight we see more noise and rubbish with the publication of the (as I said previously) worthless "Green List" now delayed. The Irish government also continues to advise against "non-essential" travel despite the anticipated publication of a "Green List".

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/202 ... s-ireland/

It's only in the next few months when significant government support starts to taper off and we head into winter that people in Ireland will realize the price for keeping cases to 10-30 per day is going to be enormous and will impact the whole of society for years to come.

I entirely disagree. The UK has put-in less effective measures and re-opened travel, but the economic damage is even worse than Ireland and there is very, very weak demand for travel. Trains and busses are running at 15% occupancy, air travel demand has collapsed to 10-15% of 2019 levels.
Keeping cases low has an economic impact, but allowing the virus to spread, uncontrolled, will wreck any hopes of an economic recovery in the medium-term. Re-opening economies in an uncontrolled way has not been successful and resulted in US states being in a worse scenario than they ever were. Let me make myself clear there can be no return to 'normal' life. This virus is not going away, HK is struggling to keep the thing under control, having wrestled it successfully.

A "V" shaped recovery is not going to happen.

Clydenairways · Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:29 am

BrianDromey wrote:
EIBusiness wrote:

Very well put IrishTexan - but sadly we are not going to see any balance in the reporting in Ireland - because something is needed to distract from the fact that Ireland is on course to suffer one of the most significant economic contractions of any western nation arising from the policy inaction of the government. Just tonight we see more noise and rubbish with the publication of the (as I said previously) worthless "Green List" now delayed. The Irish government also continues to advise against "non-essential" travel despite the anticipated publication of a "Green List".

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/202 ... s-ireland/

It's only in the next few months when significant government support starts to taper off and we head into winter that people in Ireland will realize the price for keeping cases to 10-30 per day is going to be enormous and will impact the whole of society for years to come.

I entirely disagree. The UK has put-in less effective measures and re-opened travel, but the economic damage is even worse than Ireland and there is very, very weak demand for travel. Trains and busses are running at 15% occupancy, air travel demand has collapsed to 10-15% of 2019 levels.
Keeping cases low has an economic impact, but allowing the virus to spread, uncontrolled, will wreck any hopes of an economic recovery in the medium-term. Re-opening economies in an uncontrolled way has not been successful and resulted in US states being in a worse scenario than they ever were. Let me make myself clear there can be no return to 'normal' life. This virus is not going away, HK is struggling to keep the thing under control, having wrestled it successfully.

A "V" shaped recovery is not going to happen.

Why use The UK and US as examples of what happens when re-opening economies, those two have countries have been disaster at managing COVID since day one. No country would ever desire to follow their models.
There are other smaller European countries that are managing re-opening much better such as Denmark, and of course there will be an increase in cases with any re-opening of economies, but as long it's managed well and controlled the social benefits can outweigh having the small increase in cases.

BrianDromey · Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:37 am

Clydenairways wrote:
Why use The UK and US as examples of what happens when re-opening economies, those two have countries have been disaster at managing COVID since day one. No country would ever desire to follow their models.
There are other smaller European countries that are managing re-opening much better such as Denmark, and of course there will be an increase in cases with any re-opening of economies, but as long it's managed well and controlled the social benefits can outweigh having the small increase in cases.

Countries like Spain are also struggling. I choose the UK and US as they are our largest trading partners and the extremes of good and bad practice are where lessons are to be learned. That both of our major partners are managing so poorly means that protecting the domestic economy and promoting opportunity with “Green List” countries will be a lot more important than before.

What I would say is that an increase in cases means an increase in deaths. Not just from COVID-19 but due to the capacity effects on the healthcare system and the related delays to diagnosis and treatment. There is also evidence that as many, or more will die due to difficulty accessing healthcare because of the measures implemented to control COVID, which is sobering.

EIBusiness · Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:00 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
EIBusiness wrote:

Very well put IrishTexan - but sadly we are not going to see any balance in the reporting in Ireland - because something is needed to distract from the fact that Ireland is on course to suffer one of the most significant economic contractions of any western nation arising from the policy inaction of the government. Just tonight we see more noise and rubbish with the publication of the (as I said previously) worthless "Green List" now delayed. The Irish government also continues to advise against "non-essential" travel despite the anticipated publication of a "Green List".

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/202 ... s-ireland/

It's only in the next few months when significant government support starts to taper off and we head into winter that people in Ireland will realize the price for keeping cases to 10-30 per day is going to be enormous and will impact the whole of society for years to come.

I entirely disagree. The UK has put-in less effective measures and re-opened travel, but the economic damage is even worse than Ireland and there is very, very weak demand for travel. Trains and busses are running at 15% occupancy, air travel demand has collapsed to 10-15% of 2019 levels.
Keeping cases low has an economic impact, but allowing the virus to spread, uncontrolled, will wreck any hopes of an economic recovery in the medium-term. Re-opening economies in an uncontrolled way has not been successful and resulted in US states being in a worse scenario than they ever were. Let me make myself clear there can be no return to 'normal' life. This virus is not going away, HK is struggling to keep the thing under control, having wrestled it successfully.

A "V" shaped recovery is not going to happen.

Just where did I say we are going to see a “V” shaped recovery anywhere? Just where did I say we are returning to normal life anytime soon? How about we revisit just who suffered the worst contraction in 18 months from now? Not measured by GDP alone (which is totally misleading in the case of Ireland) but in terms of GNP and other metrics.

This really is very simple. The virus is not going away anytime soon. Ireland is an island nation - like it or not. If we are to take the Gabriel Scally approach of creating a “bubble” then fine - but let people know the economic devastation that will bring to the country. Let them know of all of the businesses that will close. Let them know of the horrific taxation levels required down the road to pay for the bill of creating such a bubble.

Life has to continue in some form. It has to go on or the deaths associated with the poverty from the economic collapse will be just as severe as those associated directly with the virus. It’s time that people woke up to this reality.

As for the United States. Many states are doing well individually in the Upper Midwest and East Coast. On a per capita basis they are in a situation similar to many European countries. It’s easy to run broad brush narrative here and whilst I respect your opinion very much - I flatly disagree. For the record, I happen to be based in a state that has seen a ten fold increase in cases in the past month. We are still sitting on > 500 ventilators available, > 200 ICU beds available. A state that has only a fraction of Ireland’s population. Public health and government policy mismanagement has brought Ireland to a situation where it has no healthcare capacity to deal with any surge and that above all else is the real problem.

The bottom line is that if Ireland doesn’t open again to some level of air travel, commerce and trade pretty soon then it will be dealing with devastating economic consequences, structural unemployment etc. for years to come.

OA260 · Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:15 pm

Aer Lingus Regional seems to be starting to operate most of its UK schedule from 1st August. Some routes such as ORK-NQY/ORK-RNS and SNN-BHX/SNN-EDI are still cancelled . Some reductions in other routes but majority being loaded again.

--

Belfast International Airport: Nothing untoward found in alert

A security alert near Belfast International Airport has ended with nothing untoward being found.
The operation started on Sunday morning on Airport Road near Aldergrove after police received a report of a suspicious package.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-53464310

gosimeon · Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:59 pm

EIEIDW wrote:
Any ideas as to why EI-GAJ is currently operating DUB-LHR?

I read somewhere recently that EI are keeping more long haul planes in service than really needed to minimize the complexity of adding them back to the fleet as more long haul routes eventually start being resumed. I imagine in that case, they are happy to use them on some short haul routes that are more heavily booked to allow some spacing out between pax?

Phen · Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:12 pm

gosimeon wrote:
EIEIDW wrote:
I imagine in that case, they are happy to use them on some short haul routes that are more heavily booked to allow some spacing out between pax?

Certainly keeping aircraft active could be part of it but this morning's LHR legs weren't overbooked (from a 320/1 perspective) so a 330 wasn't necessary from that point of view but there are other reasons why it might have happened. There could have been a significant cargo shipment too large for a narrow body, or it could have been to do with crew training. There is so little TA flying now that it could well have been an exercise in keeping either flight crew or cabin crew current, or both.

EI564 · Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:06 pm

Its clear that Ireland is going to remain cautious, which is not a bad thing in itself. A surge in cases is the last thing we need. The increase in cases over the last couple of weeks is a warning sign.

But there is a middle way between closing down completely and opening up completely. Since this virus is going to be around for a while, we have to be brave enough to find that way. Recently, the narrative is driven almost completely by the medical side and not the political side. While we need to listen to the medical experts, there is a much bigger picture that needs to be factored in also.

Phen · Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:58 pm

EI564 wrote:
Its clear that Ireland is going to remain cautious, which is not a bad thing in itself. A surge in cases is the last thing we need. The increase in cases over the last couple of weeks is a warning sign.

But there is a middle way between closing down completely and opening up completely. Since this virus is going to be around for a while, we have to be brave enough to find that way. Recently, the narrative is driven almost completely by the medical side and not the political side. While we need to listen to the medical experts, there is a much bigger picture that needs to be factored in also.

I totally agree. I listened to Today with Sarah McInerney on RTE Radio 1 this morning where they opened with a piece about the travel conundrum. She was fairly neutral throughout but they had an unbalanced panel of 2 medical professionals vs just one travel advocate (Eoghan Corry). One of the medics Dr Jack Lambert was more accepting that we cannot achieve a New Zealand-style situation here due to our open land border and close business/trading ties etc with the EU. However the other professional, a GP, was contradicting that and saying we should aim for a New Zealand style containment. This is pure fantasy stuff. We are not going to go back and lock down harder than we already did in order to achieve what could only ever be a temporary break in the transmission of the disease on this island. The disease is here and is well seeded here. Cutting inbound travel to try to achieve NZ status will not work because you have as much chance of catching it in your local Tesco as you have on holiday in Europe. Clearly there is division within the medical profession itself on how to proceed. Meanwhile the one voice in the debate in favour of travel, Eoghan, was very well prepared and hit the nail on the head when he said that the relative silence form Government is being filled by the various opinions (personal as well as professional) of too many medical professionals. The potentially dire economic consequences of a prolonged cessation of travel are being ignored by the medical professionals - and that is rightly so, its their job - but proper political intervention is required here to give some balance if we are to deal with this in a sustainable way over the next several years.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/21806011

OA260 · Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm

It seems AC are changing the flights numbers for DUB from 2021.

YYZDUB
AC 842 Old
AC 800 New

DUBYYZ
AC 843 Old
AC 801 New

YVRDUB
AC 818 Old
AC 802 New

DUBYVR
AC 819 Old
AC 803 New

YULDUB
AC 862 Old
AC 804 New

DUBYUL
AC 863 Old
AC 805 New

BrianDromey · Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:34 pm

EIBusiness wrote:
The bottom line is that if Ireland doesn’t open again to some level of air travel, commerce and trade pretty soon then it will be dealing with devastating economic consequences, structural unemployment etc. for years to come.

I do hear what you’re saying and I agree that travel Facilitated commerce. That said, manufacturing is open and cargo can flow over sea or in cargo pallets. Ideas and collaboration can happen over the Internet. Ireland isn’t closed. I appreciate these are not ideal replacements but it’s widely accepted that business travel demand has been reduced dramatically and will possibly never recover. With our two largest trading partners unlikely to be on a “green list” how beneficial is unrestricted travel for commerce?

The political decision is
How many cases are we prepared to accept?
Which is driven by:
1) How much capacity does the Health Service have
2) How many people are we prepared to allow to die of COVID
3) How many people are we prepared to allow to die/become more unwell because of trying to stop people dying of COVID
4) How important is it to open schools in September
5) What is the cost of all of the above Vs projected Benefits opening the economy, borrowing money and stimulating the economy.

The sensible approach is to allow travel to/from countries and closely monitor who is coming, going, where they are staying and who they associate with. That means locator forms, tracing Apps, contact tracing and fines. Not because travel is bad and its all the foreigners fault. Outbreaks are associated with small numbers of “super spreaders” travelling to a large number of places in close proximity to other people in a short space of time.

OA260 · Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:17 pm

Travel green list to be published this week - Donnelly

Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly has said the green list of countries safe to travel to will be published this week.

Minister Donnelly also said the public health advice on travel is the same as it has been from day one, which is do not travel abroad except for essential reasons.

Speaking at Leinster House, he said if people do have to travel abroad they must restrict their movements for two weeks.

The minister said the green list is in recognition that there is a small number of countries that have a similarly low level of Covid-19 to Ireland.

However, he said people should only travel to these countries for essential reasons.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0720/115433 ... s-ireland/

—

People who travel abroad warned they will have no insurance cover
Travelling contrary to official advice will invalidate cover, even if country on ‘green list’

People who travel outside of Ireland have been warned they will invalidate their travel insurance even if the country they visit is on the so-called green list of safe countries due to be published by the Government.

Travel insurance exclusions denying cover to people who travel contrary to official guidance are the norm across the sector and as it stands the advice from the Government is that non-essential journeys overseas should be avoided.

www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/people ... 4?mode=amp

ClassicLover · Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:11 pm

Looks like Aer Lingus have announced the next batch of destinations coming back online.

Lyon, Nice, Paris, Rome, Venice and Verona.

Discounted fares on sale now to 27 July for travel through to 31 October.

If France and Italy are re-starting, perhaps it's a clue to the green list. Who knows!

shamrock350 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:08 pm

EI-ELA is currently on its way to ICN, operating Aer Lingus’ first PPE operation to South Korea.

OA260 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:46 pm

Save Shannon Airport rally cancelled

A planned public rally from Save Shannon Airport has been cancelled.

Due to take place on Saturday July 25th in Ennis, Clare TD Michael McNamara (IND), Lahinch hotelier Michael Vaughan and Karen O’Loughlin of SIPTU were announced as confirmed speakers.

Organisers have confirmed to The Clare Echo that the demonstration has been called off following advice from An Garda Síochána with regard to COVID-19 recommendations.

www.clareecho.ie/first-set-of-speakers- ... ort-rally/

—

Ryanair to close base after pilots reject pay cut

Ryanair is shutting its base at Frankfurt Hahn airport after German pilots voted to reject pay cuts.

The firm said in a memo to pilots that its bases at Berlin Tegel and Dusseldorf airports were also at risk of closure by the end of the summer.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-53485673

—-

Ryanair plane seats covered in food and stains were ‘so dirty people refused to sit in them’

A RYANAIR passenger slammed the airline after showing pictures of seats which were covered in food and grime - which were so dirty that passengers apparently refused to sit in them.

www.thesun.ie/travel/5684182/ryanair-di ... -food/amp/

ShamrockBoi330 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:55 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Looks like Aer Lingus have announced the next batch of destinations coming back online.

Lyon, Nice, Paris, Rome, Venice and Verona.

Discounted fares on sale now to 27 July for travel through to 31 October.

If France and Italy are re-starting, perhaps it's a clue to the green list. Who knows!

Still no talk of resumption of YYZ yet?

ClassicLover · Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:57 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Still no talk of resumption of YYZ yet?

I only received an e-mail announcing a sale, and those France and Italy destinations were on it.

Nothing else yet!

EI564 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:35 pm

Toronto is on sale from 17th August. There are no other direct flights on sale to North America in August (except for Boston, New York and Chicago, which never stopped).

YUAND · Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:40 pm

The government being cautious is appreciated as much as I disagree with it however, there does seem to be a little bit of flip-flopping going on. If non-essential travel is against government advice, then what purpose does this green list serve? What exactly is defined as essential travel? If countries on the green list are as safe as me travelling from Dublin to Kerry then why should we not go there? Lots of these questions aren't being addressed and even the government itself doesn't seem to fully know what direction it's heading. https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/202 ... us-travel/ . Much of what Varadkar says whilst not a useful thing to hear coming from a government minister does make sense and the strategy being pursued is a bit bizzarre. It is also worth remembering that we are a small island economy that is heavily dependant on air transport with tourism being included in this. Is government advice for tourists from these 'safe' countries not to come here or will tourism from these markets be stimulated? The alarmist tone of the CMO is less than helpful here also and saying we may have to move back to phase 2 whilst on the same day announcing below 40 new cases is a bit odd. Hopefully this is just the new government getting settled in but they seem to have lost their way a small bit compared to the previous administration.

JAmie2k9 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:07 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
b4thefall wrote:
JAmie2k9 wrote:
Aer Lingus website showing new routes Belfast City to be operated by Stobart Air as rumoured:
* Birmingham
* East Midlands
* Edinburgh
* Exeter
* Glasgow
* Leeds
* Manchester

That's great news! However, I wish somebody would step in and restore the flight to LGW that both FlyBe and Aer Lingus used to operate.

In response to this, and Fliplot's comment-

It does look like they tried to restart LGW, but it was the only slot-controlled airport they were largely unsuccessful in gaining new slots. Expect the announcement to be any day now, they were still working on the final details recently. If all 7 routes do go ahead it means that all year round routes except Cardiff have been covered.

Stobart have 5 or 6 stored ATRs, but are the 190s stored or returned to lessors? I've heard mixed reports on this.

They have been removed since but that was expected.

OA260 · Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:07 pm

Revealed: The 15 EU countries on the much anticipated ‘green list’ where people can travel without quarantine
It comes after Varadkar said the Green List should be ditched if people in Ireland are advised against foreign travel

The Government is expected to agree on a list of 15 countries where people can travel without being asked to quarantine on their return.
The Government is also expected to continue to advise people not to travel abroad unless it is an essential journey. The Cabinet meeting is on going.

The countries on the much anticipated ‘Green List’ where it is deemed safe to travel include Malta, Finland, Norway, Italy, Hungry, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Slovakia, Greece, Greenland, Gibraltar, Monaco and San Marino.

www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ ... 86545.html

kaitak · Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:54 pm

Wahey! We can go to Monaco ... but not France! And glad to see Greenland on the list, too ... clearly high on everyone's list.

And what about airlines like KLM, Swiss and Lufty that have been serving Ireland right through the crisis. This is a bit of a slap in the face. I wonder if any carriers will pull services in response to this?

EIBusiness · Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:14 pm

kaitak wrote:
Wahey! We can go to Monaco ... but not France! And glad to see Greenland on the list, too ... clearly high on everyone's list.

And what about airlines like KLM, Swiss and Lufty that have been serving Ireland right through the crisis. This is a bit of a slap in the face. I wonder if any carriers will pull services in response to this?

Absolutely - there are so many times passing overhead Nuuk that I wanted to head down there. Greenland is truly important to be on a "Green List" with Ireland. :roll:

All major industrial nations and trading partners with Ireland including the United Kingdom and Germany are absent from the list.

The warnings today of the closure of Regional Airports are not just soundbites - they are a foretaste of what is to come. Tens of thousands of redundancies in the Aviation and Travel sector in Ireland with a multiplier effect that will ripple across the general economy. Aviation volumes will take years and years to return to normal and we are going to see permanent consumption habit changes among US consumers for example who will move towards vacations in the United States, road trips etc. at least in the medium term instead of travelling to Europe.

Ireland still remains largely closed for business with all industrialized western nations and major trading partners. I hope someone has ideas for where the Social Welfare funding is going to come from. The bill is going to run to tens and tens of EUR billions.

LH982 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:31 am

Does it really make a difference which countries are on the green list, as the insurance companies will not cover you, as long as the government advises against non essential travel. Between this and the bar/restaurant issue, the government appear to be out of their depth.

ClassicLover · Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:33 am

OA260 wrote:
The countries on the much anticipated ‘Green List’ where it is deemed safe to travel include Malta, Finland, Norway, Italy, Hungry, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Slovakia, Greece, Greenland, Gibraltar, Monaco and San Marino.

It's a good beginning and as they say, they'll review it every two weeks, so I imagine it will only get larger as time progresses, all going well!

Eirules · Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:10 am

LH982 wrote:
Does it really make a difference which countries are on the green list, as the insurance companies will not cover you, as long as the government advises against non essential travel. Between this and the bar/restaurant issue, the government appear to be out of their depth.

Has the “non essential travel” advice been lifted for those 15? RTÉ is saying the advice is “take normal precautions”

BrianDromey · Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:56 am

EIBusiness wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Wahey! We can go to Monaco ... but not France! And glad to see Greenland on the list, too ... clearly high on everyone's list.

And what about airlines like KLM, Swiss and Lufty that have been serving Ireland right through the crisis. This is a bit of a slap in the face. I wonder if any carriers will pull services in response to this?

Absolutely - there are so many times passing overhead Nuuk that I wanted to head down there. Greenland is truly important to be on a "Green List" with Ireland.

All major industrial nations and trading partners with Ireland including the United Kingdom and Germany are absent from the list.

It is a rather short list. I do think it is reasonable to advise against travel, but if one must travel to differentiate restrictions based on the prevalence of the disease in the country of departure. Epidemiologically a "green list" it makes sense, but calling it "Amber" might have been better, if they are advising against travel.

I can see that for those who might want to go on holidays or undertake business in person the list is likely to be disappointing. As I was saying earlier in the week until the UK and US manage to get themselves into a state where daily life is safe, the government is right to restrict travel to and visitors from those countries - but the economic cost will be large.

There are a few obvious issues, travellers to/from Monaco will have to travel through France or Italy to get to an airport. How will this be policed? Its rather like the arrivals from NI - no locator forms, but no way to check travellers haven't arrived from GB (or anywhere else).

OA260 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:22 am

ClassicLover wrote:
OA260 wrote:
The countries on the much anticipated ‘Green List’ where it is deemed safe to travel include Malta, Finland, Norway, Italy, Hungry, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Slovakia, Greece, Greenland, Gibraltar, Monaco and San Marino.

It's a good beginning and as they say, they'll review it every two weeks, so I imagine it will only get larger as time progresses, all going well!

I guess anyone booked for this Summer to Cyprus, Greece, Italy and Malta will be happy enough. Some good options there for anyone that really wants to escape this lovely Irish Summer we are having

dstc47 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:11 am

Green list or no green list, I suspect air travel is going to be off the agenda for very many in 2020 and even 2021, especially those afraid of being stranded due to sudden changes in closedown rules. News from Australia, Spain and Hong Kong where renewed outbreaks follow on from apparently good results dont help to calm nerves. No insurance cover is going to make corporate travel very slow to recover and the window for any family travel before the school term might, or might not, resume, is getting very narrow. Perhaps some of those most willing to "chance it" could also be those most likely to the seatmate you might not wish to travel with either. While virus fatigue is a problem, and social distancing is less and less observed, I suspect the recovery in air travel will be very slow. Somewhat surprised to see the Netherlands not making the cut.

AmricanShamrok · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:20 am

I'm perplexed by some of these green list destinations. If you want to get to Greenland, you'd have to go via Denmark or Iceland (literally, the only two ways of getting there and both of which are not on the list).

There's also no way of getting to Monaco without transiting a non-green list country unless you have a private helicopter or yacht based in Italy. Gibraltar is in a similar predicament (Spain, the UK or Morocco are the only ways in).

SRGVA67 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am

What stops you from flying to MXP and then rent a car and hop across the border to Switzerland, France, Austria or even Slovenia and Croatia ? I find it hard to believe that Italy is included on this list as travel to any other Schengen country is possible by surface travel. The list should either not have included any Schengen countries or preferably all of them.

marcogr12 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:30 am

I am perplexed too...Iceland is one of the safest countries with a very low number of cases and even lower number of deaths..How come is not on the list?

EI320 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:31 am

I think it would be far more constructive if the time spent on the development of the so-called "Green List" was instead used to roll out testing regimes at our airports. It is only through a fast, effective testing programme that we can fully reopen our country while ensuring we have the necessary safeguards in place to limit the import of the virus.

It is widely accepted that we are unlikely to have a vaccine for COVID-19 available on a widespread basis until mid-2021 at the very earliest. Given the potential for unpredictable surges in COVID-19 over the next 12+ months, "Green Lists" will ultimately be subject to change and as such, they offer little in the form of real certainty that travellers and businesses require in order to plan ahead. It is not a sustainable approach. In terms of the "Green List" published last night, it would seem the sole reason for the inclusion of certain countries was to "make up the numbers". Travel between Ireland and Malta, Gibraltar, Monaco and San Marino is pretty negligible. Travel between Ireland and Greenland is effectively non-existent, so why bother even including it? Mainly because 15 countries sounds like a "good number" - it's all about the optics, as is everything in politics.

LHR is trialling swab testing for passengers, while FRA, in co-operation with Lufthansa, opened a testing centre for passengers at the beginning of July. There are even airlines in Indonesia offering subsidised COVID-19 tests pre-flight. It would be interesting to hear more about the progress DUB and its airlines have made in this regard? What is the timeline for the roll out of such testing? There are of course logistical challenges associated with such testing, particularly at high-volume airports like DUB, but I don't believe it's anything that a positive, 'can-do' attitude, combined with some government funding where needed, cannot resolve. There is an onus on all industry participants to step up and work together with the Government to help restore the vital connectivity this country relies upon.

Skyblue39 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:50 am

Egyptair SU-GEX an Airbus A220 inbound to DUB from CAI, for any spotters.

BrianDromey · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:21 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I am perplexed too...Iceland is one of the safest countries with a very low number of cases and even lower number of deaths..How come is not on the list?

I cant see any reason on the usual news sources. My only thought is that the population is very small, so the R number is disproportionally large, testing has been very high especially in the earlier months.

EI320 wrote:
I think it would be far more constructive if the time spent on the development of the so-called "Green List" was instead used to roll out testing regimes at our airports. It is only through a fast, effective testing programme that we can fully reopen our country while ensuring we have the necessary safeguards in place to limit the import of the virus.

There is a real issue about what should be done with people between their arrival/airport test and the results becoming available. Do they get quarantined in a hotel? Come with a negative test within 72 hours of their arrival? On Flyertalk people mentioned the process on JER. that you can go with your own test, or be tested on arrival. Regardless, if anyone on your flight tests positive you will be forcibly quarantined by the government for 14 days, at a government facility, if you were within 3/5 rows of the passenger. To me that's a huge deterrent to travel, but an excellent way to reduce the risk of imported cases. While I do think testing on arrival is very important it is not a solution itself and, like all tests, has a margin of error. To prevent the unintentional, asymptomatic spread of Coronavirus interaction between households must be reduced to an absolute minimum and measures to reduce transmission, such as social distancing, masks, gloves, partitions, etc are to be encouraged.

Clydenairways · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:26 am

Skyblue39 wrote:
Egyptair SU-GEX an Airbus A220 inbound to DUB from CAI, for any spotters.

Is this the scheduled route that was supposed to begin this year?

EI564 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:34 am

EI320 wrote:
LHR is trialling swab testing for passengers, while FRA, in co-operation with Lufthansa, opened a testing centre for passengers at the beginning of July. There are even airlines in Indonesia offering subsidised COVID-19 tests pre-flight. It would be interesting to hear more about the progress DUB and its airlines have made in this regard? What is the timeline for the roll out of such testing? There are of course logistical challenges associated with such testing, particularly at high-volume airports like DUB, but I don't believe it's anything that a positive, 'can-do' attitude, combined with some government funding where needed, cannot resolve. There is an onus on all industry participants to step up and work together with the Government to help restore the vital connectivity this country relies upon.

I'd agree with a lot of this. The government has suggested it will add further checks in the airports but how far along are we? It does seem to be the longer term solution.

I think we are overthinking the list of countries though. The government listed all the countries in Europe and cut off at 5 cases per 100,0000. It was that simple. People can pull the data if they want to check.

While mocking the government comes naturally, in this case, I think we are going overboard.

They could have decided to remove some countries because we don't have direct flights but they didn't (and Simon Coveney did say you are allowed to transfer over a non-Green Listed country, as long as you didn't leave the airport). Fine.

Iceland must have been very close to the green list but it has had an increase in recent days. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iceland/ 10 cases in a country as small as Iceland is like Ireland having over 100!

OA260 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:35 am

After this mornings government update TUI Ireland have pushed back their limited Summer program again to 10th August. Not looking good for this year.

EIEIDW · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:46 am

Clydenairways wrote:
Skyblue39 wrote:
Egyptair SU-GEX an Airbus A220 inbound to DUB from CAI, for any spotters.

Is this the scheduled route that was supposed to begin this year?

No that is due to start in October,

This was just making a stop on the way to Montreal

LH982 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:52 am

Eirules wrote:
LH982 wrote:
Does it really make a difference which countries are on the green list, as the insurance companies will not cover you, as long as the government advises against non essential travel. Between this and the bar/restaurant issue, the government appear to be out of their depth.

Has the “non essential travel” advice been lifted for those 15? RTÉ is saying the advice is “take normal precautions”

The Department of Foreign Affairs are still advising against any non essential travel. The insurance companies are using this to invalidate insurance for any travel outside Ireland.

You can go to the 15 countries and return without quarantine, but don't expect to be insured while you are travelling.

NiallS · Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:18 pm

LH982 wrote:
Eirules wrote:
LH982 wrote:
Does it really make a difference which countries are on the green list, as the insurance companies will not cover you, as long as the government advises against non essential travel. Between this and the bar/restaurant issue, the government appear to be out of their depth.

Has the “non essential travel” advice been lifted for those 15? RTÉ is saying the advice is “take normal precautions”

The Department of Foreign Affairs are still advising against any non essential travel. The insurance companies are using this to invalidate insurance for any travel outside Ireland.

You can go to the 15 countries and return without quarantine, but don't expect to be insured while you are travelling.

That's not true. The public health advice is not to travel unless essential. The DFA travel advice for the green list countries is "normal precautions", which means you would be covered by travel insurance.

Spain vs Greece:

AmricanShamrok · Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:19 pm

EI320 wrote:
LHR is trialling swab testing for passengers, while FRA, in co-operation with Lufthansa, opened a testing centre for passengers at the beginning of July. There are even airlines in Indonesia offering subsidised COVID-19 tests pre-flight. It would be interesting to hear more about the progress DUB and its airlines have made in this regard? What is the timeline for the roll out of such testing? There are of course logistical challenges associated with such testing, particularly at high-volume airports like DUB, but I don't believe it's anything that a positive, 'can-do' attitude, combined with some government funding where needed, cannot resolve. There is an onus on all industry participants to step up and work together with the Government to help restore the vital connectivity this country relies upon.

Announced today that three testing centres in the Midlands are to close due to decreased demand. Hopefully the focus should be on redeploying these resources to the airports.

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2020/0 ... t-centres/

LH982 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:13 pm

NiallS wrote:

That's not true. The public health advice is not to travel unless essential. The DFA travel advice for the green list countries is "normal precautions", which means you would be covered by travel insurance.

Spain vs Greece:

From the same DFA webpage that you took your screenshots from:
Important Travel Advice Update
General COVID-19 Travel Advisory in Operation:
Avoid non-essential travel until further notice:

The Irish Authorities advise against all non-essential travel overseas until further notice. This includes Great Britain but does not apply to Northern Ireland. It also includes all travel by cruise ship.

I've talked to two insurance companies related to work travel this morning, and neither will guarantee coverage, based on DFA and government advice.

EI320 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:27 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
EI320 wrote:
I think it would be far more constructive if the time spent on the development of the so-called "Green List" was instead used to roll out testing regimes at our airports. It is only through a fast, effective testing programme that we can fully reopen our country while ensuring we have the necessary safeguards in place to limit the import of the virus.

There is a real issue about what should be done with people between their arrival/airport test and the results becoming available. Do they get quarantined in a hotel? Come with a negative test within 72 hours of their arrival? On Flyertalk people mentioned the process on JER. that you can go with your own test, or be tested on arrival. Regardless, if anyone on your flight tests positive you will be forcibly quarantined by the government for 14 days, at a government facility, if you were within 3/5 rows of the passenger. To me that's a huge deterrent to travel, but an excellent way to reduce the risk of imported cases. While I do think testing on arrival is very important it is not a solution itself and, like all tests, has a margin of error. To prevent the unintentional, asymptomatic spread of Coronavirus interaction between households must be reduced to an absolute minimum and measures to reduce transmission, such as social distancing, masks, gloves, partitions, etc are to be encouraged.

The logistics certainly require some thought.

I think as a basic first step, temperature checks should be performed on all passengers prior to boarding. I'm not sure to what extent this is currently being done, but there should be no passengers with symptoms of the virus permitted to board an aircraft.

With respect to testing, I don't think it's realistic or even feasible to test 100% of arriving passengers. As passenger traffic increases, the logistics would eventually prove unmanageable. To reduce the pool requiring testing, I think the "Green List" concept makes sense. Passengers arriving from countries where COVID-19 is less prevalent, i.e. those on the "Green List", would not be required to present test results or to take a test upon arrival.

Passengers arriving from countries where COVID-19 is more prevalent, i.e. those not on the "Green List", would, as you suggest, either be required to present negative test results (taken within the last 48-72 hours) or take a test on arrival. I believe there are testing kits coming available that offer turnaround times of less than one hour. During that period, passengers would be required to quarantine in a dedicated part of the terminal or in a nearby hotel. If the results are positive, permanent residents would quarantine at home with more stringent oversight than we currently have. Non-residents would have the option of quarantining in a Government facility for up to 14 days or returning to their country of origin on the next available flight. Passengers choosing the latter option would be required to wear the appropriate PPE on the return flight and be kept separate (ideally 3-4 rows of separation) from other passengers. I appreciate the logistics of this latter option are not without challenges, but I don't believe we can (or should) forcibly quarantine non-residents in a Government facility for 14 days.

I agree that testing is not 100% effective and there is a margin of error. However, risk is present in every area of our lives. We can only do our best to manage it in a way that is thoughtful and reasonable. I believe the only sustainable approach to managing this virus is one that gives us a reasonable degree of control in managing it (we can't expect to eradicate it - only manage it - via extensive testing, social distancing, mask wearing etc.) but also one that allows trade and commerce to continue to the extent possible. Any approach that fails to acknowledge any one of these factors cannot be sustained long-term.

OA260 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:47 pm

LH982 wrote:

I've talked to two insurance companies related to work travel this morning, and neither will guarantee coverage, based on DFA and government advice.

Apparently negotiations are ongoing with the underwriters but its going to be very difficult to get such sporadic cover especially with a list thats being reviewed every 2 weeks.

EI320 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:56 pm

I should add to the above - any non-residents who test positive and have accommodation in Ireland that is suitable for effective quarantine should of course be requested to quarantine at that location rather than in a Government facility. The aim should really be to minimise the number of people requiring Government facilities and instead allocate resources to airport testing and quarantine compliance.

OA260 · Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:48 pm

Ryanair trying to be funny but its actually backfiring as hundreds respond by asking for their refunds and calling them thieves !

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