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WNflyer1523
Topic Author
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 am

The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm

Besides some Frontier adds, MacArthur has really been sitting stagnant over the past 10-15 years. Let's see what we've lost...
DL connection to ATL + CVG (to be fair CVG is never coming back)
American Eagle to BOS + DCA
PenAir
Allegiant
Elite Airways
Spirit
Numerous WN destinations (LAS, MDW, RSW, BNA, PVD, JAX - to be fair half of these have no chance of coming back)
CO to CLE (to be fair this isn't coming back either)

Frontier is adding nonstop to Vegas in March 2021. It's supposedly daily, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. IMO they should start it off at 4-5x a week.

If it wasn't for Frontier, who knows what MacArthur would be like right now. I'm glad that over the past few years the airport has took to advertising on social media, however more still needs to be done. Here's my thoughts:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.

Back to Frontier and the current terminal situation at ISP, Concourse B isn't the best. Far from security, no food options except for a vending machine, old and cramped, it's not the best. Southwest doesn't currently use gates A2-A4 at ISP, but still owns them I think. I am 99% sure they're leasing A1 to American. With Southwest confined to gates A5-A8, what's stopping them from leasing the other gates to Frontier? Is it because Frontier is directly competing with them on their FL routes?

Anyone else have any ideas for ISP?

---

P.S. - I haven't been on this forum in a while so kindly let me know if I did something wrong.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1894
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:27 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
Besides some Frontier adds, MacArthur has really been sitting stagnant over the past 10-15 years. Let's see what we've lost...
DL connection to ATL + CVG (to be fair CVG is never coming back)
American Eagle to BOS + DCA
PenAir
Allegiant
Spirit
Numerous WN destinations (LAS, MDW, RSW, BNA, PVD, JAX - to be fair half of these have no chance of coming back)
CO to CLE (to be fair this isn't coming back either)

Frontier is adding nonstop to Vegas in March 2021. It's supposedly daily, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. IMO they should start it off at 4-5x a week.

If it wasn't for Frontier, who knows what MacArthur would be like right now. I'm glad that over the past few years the airport has took to advertising on social media, however more still needs to be done. Here's my thoughts:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.

Back to Frontier and the current terminal situation at ISP, Concourse B isn't the best. Far from security, no food options except for a vending machine, old and cramped, it's not the best. Southwest doesn't currently use gates A2-A4 at ISP, but still owns them I think. I am 99% sure they're leasing A1 to American. With Southwest confined to gates A5-A8, what's stopping them from leasing the other gates to Frontier? Is it because Frontier is directly competing with them on their FL routes?

Anyone else have any ideas for ISP?

---

P.S. - I haven't been on this forum in a while so kindly let me know if I did something wrong.


WN still has a MAX problem.
Once the MAX gets cleared to fly WN will be back on the defensive line.
Now will ISP see the 20 plus flights a day of years gone bye? Probably not.
But as the less crowded appealing post COVID environment will bring a small return to 2nd tier airports like ISP.
This could see a rebirth of some service.
WN holds a 50 year lease on it's 8 gates. Since it paid for and posted the bonds for them.
The new airport leadership have tried over and over to get WN to release the gates to the airport. But so far WN has said no aside from the AA sublease gate which was supposed to be temporary during the new construction of the B gates and international gate.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
WNflyer1523
Topic Author
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:35 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Besides some Frontier adds, MacArthur has really been sitting stagnant over the past 10-15 years. Let's see what we've lost...
DL connection to ATL + CVG (to be fair CVG is never coming back)
American Eagle to BOS + DCA
PenAir
Allegiant
Spirit
Numerous WN destinations (LAS, MDW, RSW, BNA, PVD, JAX - to be fair half of these have no chance of coming back)
CO to CLE (to be fair this isn't coming back either)

Frontier is adding nonstop to Vegas in March 2021. It's supposedly daily, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. IMO they should start it off at 4-5x a week.

If it wasn't for Frontier, who knows what MacArthur would be like right now. I'm glad that over the past few years the airport has took to advertising on social media, however more still needs to be done. Here's my thoughts:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.

Back to Frontier and the current terminal situation at ISP, Concourse B isn't the best. Far from security, no food options except for a vending machine, old and cramped, it's not the best. Southwest doesn't currently use gates A2-A4 at ISP, but still owns them I think. I am 99% sure they're leasing A1 to American. With Southwest confined to gates A5-A8, what's stopping them from leasing the other gates to Frontier? Is it because Frontier is directly competing with them on their FL routes?

Anyone else have any ideas for ISP?

---

P.S. - I haven't been on this forum in a while so kindly let me know if I did something wrong.


WN still has a MAX problem.
Once the MAX gets cleared to fly WN will be back on the defensive line.
Now will ISP see the 20 plus flights a day of years gone bye? Probably not.
But as the less crowded appealing post COVID environment will bring a small return to 2nd tier airports like ISP.
This could see a rebirth of some service.
WN holds a 50 year lease on it's 8 gates. Since it paid for and posted the bonds for them.
The new airport leadership have tried over and over to get WN to release the gates to the airport. But so far WN has said no aside from the AA sublease gate which was supposed to be temporary during the new construction of the B gates and international gate.

Flyguy


Yea, I definitely don't expect them to return to the 20/30 daily flights back in their golden days. Wow, I had no clue they had a 50 year lease on the gates! I thought it was a 25 year lease. Interesting.
It would be nice to see them get back on the defensive line and add a couple more flights. I heard they're ending FLL, is that true or just temporary COVID cuts?
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5921
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:59 pm

WN flew to LAS

Very popular flight. Axed because it was full of award tickets.

There was a time WN was supposed to grow to 40 plus flights. This was 2004-2005.

In came LGA slots and the rest is history.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5067
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:24 pm

I think F9's burgeoning presence will prevent WN from adding back most of the leisure stuff. Just be BWI for the most part from now on.

I thought JetBlue might be interested, but JFK is no longer slot constrained so, it will be a while before they look at ISP.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:31 pm

WN re-adding ISP-MDW nonstop service might be a possibility with WN no longer serving EWR, with LGA being slot-restricted, and with there being a significant amount of demand to the NYC market from MDW.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14104
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:46 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN re-adding ISP-MDW nonstop service might be a possibility with WN no longer serving EWR, with LGA being slot-restricted, and with there being a significant amount of demand to the NYC market from MDW.


Islip is 55 miles from Manhattan, it's a suburban community that doesn't really have the large corporate presence that suburbs of Westchester, Connecticut and New Jersey support. That's why it's all leisure oriented. Chicago is a business destination, very little cultural connections between the regions. The cultural connections for Long Island are the Southeast States and especially Florida for retirees and vacationers.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:50 pm

Would love to have carriers such as La Compagnie starting secondary Trans Atlantic services. Islip would be great for all of us who live on Long Island who wish to avoid JFK. Many European countries now have customs pre clearance services which would help customer inbound flow.

ISP-SNN/LGW/ORL/RTM
 
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STT757
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:53 pm

La Compagnie caters to business travelers, not leisure. And even for the leisure carriers the experiment with outer region secondary airports for trans-Atlantic traffic is over, there will be plenty of space at EWR, JFK, BOS etc.. for whomever for years to come.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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ztarizona
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:59 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:09 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Besides some Frontier adds, MacArthur has really been sitting stagnant over the past 10-15 years. Let's see what we've lost...
DL connection to ATL + CVG (to be fair CVG is never coming back)
American Eagle to BOS + DCA
PenAir
Allegiant
Spirit
Numerous WN destinations (LAS, MDW, RSW, BNA, PVD, JAX - to be fair half of these have no chance of coming back)
CO to CLE (to be fair this isn't coming back either)

Frontier is adding nonstop to Vegas in March 2021. It's supposedly daily, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. IMO they should start it off at 4-5x a week.

If it wasn't for Frontier, who knows what MacArthur would be like right now. I'm glad that over the past few years the airport has took to advertising on social media, however more still needs to be done. Here's my thoughts:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.

Back to Frontier and the current terminal situation at ISP, Concourse B isn't the best. Far from security, no food options except for a vending machine, old and cramped, it's not the best. Southwest doesn't currently use gates A2-A4 at ISP, but still owns them I think. I am 99% sure they're leasing A1 to American. With Southwest confined to gates A5-A8, what's stopping them from leasing the other gates to Frontier? Is it because Frontier is directly competing with them on their FL routes?

Anyone else have any ideas for ISP?

---

P.S. - I haven't been on this forum in a while so kindly let me know if I did something wrong.


WN still has a MAX problem.
Once the MAX gets cleared to fly WN will be back on the defensive line.
Now will ISP see the 20 plus flights a day of years gone bye? Probably not.
But as the less crowded appealing post COVID environment will bring a small return to 2nd tier airports like ISP.
This could see a rebirth of some service.
WN holds a 50 year lease on it's 8 gates. Since it paid for and posted the bonds for them.
The new airport leadership have tried over and over to get WN to release the gates to the airport. But so far WN has said no aside from the AA sublease gate which was supposed to be temporary during the new construction of the B gates and international gate.

Flyguy


Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.

It's sad, I think on ISP (grew up near there), has quite a unique catchment and a lot of pent up demand, but airlines do not want the non-business low-fare demand there so they essentially walked away. No one wants to compete on price so they angle and distort the market and we end up with what we have now. Even DL the flights were packed in the Delta Express days and the thank you they gave the community when Song started up was to throw a CRJ to ATL and then even took that away. When meanwhile, a 757 on Song *could* have landed on the main runway and Frontier now is showing no problem with its A321s but Delta said nope you can drive your behind to the city you're not worth it to us... at ISP. Granted, before recent days the airport was not as well run, the council did a great job with the new leadership they brought in and we are/were (pre COVID) seeing greenshoots.
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1894
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm

I do think if WN were to add anything new to ISP it would probably be a daily morning departure to DEN.
It would feed everything southwest, west and northwest.
I'm sure that Long Island snow bunnies would love seasonal connections to HDN.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:42 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I do think if WN were to add anything new to ISP it would probably be a daily morning departure to DEN.
It would feed everything southwest, west and northwest.
I'm sure that Long Island snow bunnies would love seasonal connections to HDN.


I agree that WN adding ISP-DEN nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) WN adding nonstop service to DEN from BHM, CLT, CVG, DSM, ELP, LIT, MEM, and ICT during the last 2 years,
(b) WN no longer serving DEN nonstop from EWR,
(c) WN having plans to significantly expand at DEN, and
(d) connections available to destinations west of the Rocky Mountains through DEN on WN.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:51 pm

ztarizona wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.

It's sad, I think on ISP (grew up near there), has quite a unique catchment and a lot of pent up demand, but airlines do not want the non-business low-fare demand there so they essentially walked away. No one wants to compete on price so they angle and distort the market and we end up with what we have now.


UA adding ISP-ORD/IAD might be a possibility with
(a) UA not serving JFK,
(b) UA only serving its ORD, DEN, IAH, and IAD hubs nonstop from LGA,
(c) UA's EWR hub being located more than 64 miles from ISP,
(d) UA capturing some business traffic at ISP if UA adds service to ISP, and
(e) some of the Long Island suburbs being located east of ISP.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:53 pm

ztarizona wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Besides some Frontier adds, MacArthur has really been sitting stagnant over the past 10-15 years. Let's see what we've lost...
DL connection to ATL + CVG (to be fair CVG is never coming back)
American Eagle to BOS + DCA
PenAir
Allegiant
Spirit
Numerous WN destinations (LAS, MDW, RSW, BNA, PVD, JAX - to be fair half of these have no chance of coming back)
CO to CLE (to be fair this isn't coming back either)

Frontier is adding nonstop to Vegas in March 2021. It's supposedly daily, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. IMO they should start it off at 4-5x a week.

If it wasn't for Frontier, who knows what MacArthur would be like right now. I'm glad that over the past few years the airport has took to advertising on social media, however more still needs to be done. Here's my thoughts:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.

Back to Frontier and the current terminal situation at ISP, Concourse B isn't the best. Far from security, no food options except for a vending machine, old and cramped, it's not the best. Southwest doesn't currently use gates A2-A4 at ISP, but still owns them I think. I am 99% sure they're leasing A1 to American. With Southwest confined to gates A5-A8, what's stopping them from leasing the other gates to Frontier? Is it because Frontier is directly competing with them on their FL routes?

Anyone else have any ideas for ISP?

---

P.S. - I haven't been on this forum in a while so kindly let me know if I did something wrong.


WN still has a MAX problem.
Once the MAX gets cleared to fly WN will be back on the defensive line.
Now will ISP see the 20 plus flights a day of years gone bye? Probably not.
But as the less crowded appealing post COVID environment will bring a small return to 2nd tier airports like ISP.
This could see a rebirth of some service.
WN holds a 50 year lease on it's 8 gates. Since it paid for and posted the bonds for them.
The new airport leadership have tried over and over to get WN to release the gates to the airport. But so far WN has said no aside from the AA sublease gate which was supposed to be temporary during the new construction of the B gates and international gate.

Flyguy


Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.

It's sad, I think on ISP (grew up near there), has quite a unique catchment and a lot of pent up demand, but airlines do not want the non-business low-fare demand there so they essentially walked away. No one wants to compete on price so they angle and distort the market and we end up with what we have now. Even DL the flights were packed in the Delta Express days and the thank you they gave the community when Song started up was to throw a CRJ to ATL and then even took that away. When meanwhile, a 757 on Song *could* have landed on the main runway and Frontier now is showing no problem with its A321s but Delta said nope you can drive your behind to the city you're not worth it to us... at ISP. Granted, before recent days the airport was not as well run, the council did a great job with the new leadership they brought in and we are/were (pre COVID) seeing greenshoots.


If ISP decided to break the lease with WN for those gates, WN would probably just leave the market. However, cooler heads will eventually prevail, given WN's reduced presence at ISP. More than likely ISP will negotiate a sublease with WN for the gates they need (if they really need them).
 
MIflyer12
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:54 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.


I can't believe there's any O&D DTW-ISP, nor ISP-DTW, so you're really talking connecting traffic -- with a high-CASM CR2. Wouldn't many people just travel to JFK for a non-stop? More CR2s haven't been DL's plan for a long time now.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:58 pm

It’s going to be hard for ISP to develop into a larger operation. Sunrise highway provides a near straight shot to JFK. Also ISP has a ton of student pilot activity (including me) going on. The north and south practice areas are always busy and it may not be possible to increase commercial flights to a larger extent.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.


I can't believe there's any O&D DTW-ISP, nor ISP-DTW, so you're really talking connecting traffic -- with a high-CASM CR2. Wouldn't many people just travel to JFK for a non-stop? More CR2s haven't been DL's plan for a long time now.


There were actually a few passengers a day connecting to DTW from ISP through BWI on WN, and the PDEW of ISP-DTW was approximately 7 passengers per day in Q3 2019.

There is likely enough O&D traffic between ISP and ATL to support possible nonstop service to ATL on DL as the PDEW of ISP-ATL was 67 passengers per day in Q3 2019. DL also has a FF base in Long Island due to its LGA and JFK hubs to support ISP-ATL nonstop service. DL had also (at least prior to the COVID-19 pandemic) insisted on serving some other secondary airports in major U.S. metropolitan areas such as BUR, MDW, DAL, HOU, MHT, SWF, PHF, OAK, ONT, SNA, SJC, and HPN.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14104
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm

jplatts wrote:
ztarizona wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.

It's sad, I think on ISP (grew up near there), has quite a unique catchment and a lot of pent up demand, but airlines do not want the non-business low-fare demand there so they essentially walked away. No one wants to compete on price so they angle and distort the market and we end up with what we have now.


UA adding ISP-ORD/IAD might be a possibility with
(a) UA not serving JFK,
(b) UA only serving its ORD, DEN, IAH, and IAD hubs nonstop from LGA,
(c) UA's EWR hub being located more than 64 miles from ISP,
(d) UA capturing some business traffic at ISP if UA adds service to ISP, and
(e) some of the Long Island suburbs being located east of ISP.


For many years CO flew 5x daily ATR-42s between EWR and Islip.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
kbmiflyer
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:47 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:12 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
It’s going to be hard for ISP to develop into a larger operation. Sunrise highway provides a near straight shot to JFK. Also ISP has a ton of student pilot activity (including me) going on. The north and south practice areas are always busy and it may not be possible to increase commercial flights to a larger extent.


Generally speaking, the student pilot activity has to get out of the way of the air passenger flights, not the other way around.
 
WNflyer1523
Topic Author
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.


I can't believe there's any O&D DTW-ISP, nor ISP-DTW, so you're really talking connecting traffic -- with a high-CASM CR2. Wouldn't many people just travel to JFK for a non-stop? More CR2s haven't been DL's plan for a long time now.


Happy to see all the discussion.

I think they could make ISP-DTW work. When Frontier tried it 2 years ago, I think they were averaging 70-80 or so pax, maybe slightly less. And this was with little to no connecting opportunities through DTW on Frontier.
I think it would work with the business community and those just traveling to DTW, or making connections in DTW, which I assume would be many people.
 
WNflyer1523
Topic Author
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:23 pm

jplatts wrote:
ztarizona wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.

It's sad, I think on ISP (grew up near there), has quite a unique catchment and a lot of pent up demand, but airlines do not want the non-business low-fare demand there so they essentially walked away. No one wants to compete on price so they angle and distort the market and we end up with what we have now.


UA adding ISP-ORD/IAD might be a possibility with
(a) UA not serving JFK,
(b) UA only serving its ORD, DEN, IAH, and IAD hubs nonstop from LGA,
(c) UA's EWR hub being located more than 64 miles from ISP,
(d) UA capturing some business traffic at ISP if UA adds service to ISP, and
(e) some of the Long Island suburbs being located east of ISP.


You do make some good points, but I don't feel that UA has much of a base here on LI with the exception of business travelers. Sure, it would probably draw some people who would be happy not to have to go to LGA anymore, but unlike AA and DL, I don't think UA has much of a base here on LI.

The same could be said about Frontier, nobody knew who they were when they first announced service to Orlando but look at them now. People think hey $20 flights to Disney let's give them a try, but for the legacies it's different. For United it could be a bit different because most people are already loyal to their legacy carriers. If they started service to ISP I don't think it would be more than a daily CRJ2 at first and then they'd see how it goes from there.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:34 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
It’s going to be hard for ISP to develop into a larger operation. Sunrise highway provides a near straight shot to JFK. Also ISP has a ton of student pilot activity (including me) going on. The north and south practice areas are always busy and it may not be possible to increase commercial flights to a larger extent.


Generally speaking, the student pilot activity has to get out of the way of the air passenger flights, not the other way around.


NY Approach tries to keep everyone separated but you still have close calls around 2000 feet especially along the south shore. Students flying around performing stalls and ground referencing maneuvers means you’re constantly looking around for traffic.
 
N649DL
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:53 pm

Over a decade ago, I dated a girl (long distance) in college who's roommate always swore by WN BWI-ISP to get home quickly. Back then to visit I mostly did LAX-DFW-BWI on AA usually on 757 haha.
 
chemmy
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:01 pm

Several times in the past, I opted to use ISP as an alternative to the other NYC-area airports. Getting to the airport on the LIRR and then a taxi was easy and convenient. The problems I had were getting a taxi from ISP back to the train. While it would be $5-$10 to get TO the airport, getting back to the train station was often $20+ and I even had instances where I had to wait in the cab so the cabbie could fill it up with passengers. It was so inconvenient that I stopped using ISP altogether. Just my two cents. This was, of course, before Lyft and Uber but now I just fly into LGA.
 
cporcelli78
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:22 pm

desperately need ISP-CLT, ISP-DCA on AA. Also PHL flights have been gone since COVID and are returning August 17th or 18th on AA / Piedmont
 
jplatts
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 pm

cporcelli78 wrote:
desperately need ISP-CLT, ISP-DCA on AA. Also PHL flights have been gone since COVID and are returning August 17th or 18th.


I am unsure if AA adding ISP-DCA will happen with DCA being slot restricted, but I agree that AA adding ISP-CLT nonstop service is a possibility with CLT being a major AA hub.

AA adding ISP-DFW nonstop service might also be a possibility with DFW being the main hub for AA, and ISP-DFW is also within the range of E-175 regional jets. AA also currently operates MIA-MSP nonstop service, which is longer than ISP-DFW, on E-175 regional jets.
 
dumbell2424
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:02 pm

chemmy wrote:
Several times in the past, I opted to use ISP as an alternative to the other NYC-area airports. Getting to the airport on the LIRR and then a taxi was easy and convenient. The problems I had were getting a taxi from ISP back to the train. While it would be $5-$10 to get TO the airport, getting back to the train station was often $20+ and I even had instances where I had to wait in the cab so the cabbie could fill it up with passengers. It was so inconvenient that I stopped using ISP altogether. Just my two cents. This was, of course, before Lyft and Uber but now I just fly into LGA.


A few years ago Village Taxis made it a $5 flat-rate each way and I've had no problems in either direction.
 
MavyWavyATR
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm

cporcelli78 wrote:
desperately need ISP-CLT, ISP-DCA on AA. Also PHL flights have been gone since COVID and are returning August 17th or 18th on AA / Piedmont


Would be nice if AA, WN, or F9 adds service to/from Charlotte. From what I've seen on ISP's social media, it's a popular request regarding future routes to/from there.
 
uconn99
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:17 pm

delete.
Last edited by uconn99 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airlineworker
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:18 pm

jplatts wrote:
cporcelli78 wrote:
desperately need ISP-CLT, ISP-DCA on AA. Also PHL flights have been gone since COVID and are returning August 17th or 18th.


I am unsure if AA adding ISP-DCA will happen with DCA being slot restricted, but I agree that AA adding ISP-CLT nonstop service is a possibility with CLT being a major AA hub.

AA adding ISP-DFW nonstop service might also be a possibility with DFW being the main hub for AA, and ISP-DFW is also within the range of E-175 regional jets. AA also currently operates MIA-MSP nonstop service, which is longer than ISP-DFW, on E-175 regional jets.


I am sure many DCA slots are open now due to the cutback in flights. HVN lost its AA CLT flight in May, what about a circle flight, DCA-HVN-ISP-DCA. Very short flight HVN-ISP. Years ago DL ran many circle flights in the south. Trying to get used to the new normal and think outside the box.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think F9's burgeoning presence will prevent WN from adding back most of the leisure stuff. Just be BWI for the most part from now on.

I thought JetBlue might be interested, but JFK is no longer slot constrained so, it will be a while before they look at ISP.


JFK absolutely is still Level 3 slot restricted. Airlines just are relaxed on not having to use their current slots for the rest of the NS20 aviation season. It remains to be seen if there will be a similar waiver for NW20. Additionally, for ISP, the only use really would be seasonal leisure right now. What could be a game-changer in the future though is when the LIRR Main Line third track is completed, which would allow for reverse peak traffic in the weekday (pre-COVID 19, at Ronkonkoma, which is closest to ISP, there was a 147-minute gap in westbound service in the PM) as both tracks on the main line are eastbound only).
 
WNflyer1523
Topic Author
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:55 pm

If they were to ever build a terminal on the north side of the airport with direct access to the LIRR, I could see European LCCs adding service to ISP. There is so much potential for this airport that is waiting to be tapped.
It would also be nice to see Air Canada try a seasonal YYZ-ISP on a CRJ2.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:07 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
If they were to ever build a terminal on the north side of the airport with direct access to the LIRR, I could see European LCCs adding service to ISP. There is so much potential for this airport that is waiting to be tapped.
It would also be nice to see Air Canada try a seasonal YYZ-ISP on a CRJ2.


Expansion along the north side may have a few issues. The LIRR is expanding the operational footprint of the Mid-Suffolk yard to provide increased service once East side access is finished. There’s room over there but you have to be mindful of the approach to 15R as well. Can it be done, absolutely. You may need the town of islip to reduce the parking lot to make it happen.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:20 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
If they were to ever build a terminal on the north side of the airport with direct access to the LIRR, I could see European LCCs adding service to ISP. There is so much potential for this airport that is waiting to be tapped.
It would also be nice to see Air Canada try a seasonal YYZ-ISP on a CRJ2.

WN proposed this years ago but was take down by the NIMBYS around ISP.
WN did win an alternative version to build the current 8 gates they have now.
The trade off was ISP Would have a free Shuttle back and forth to the LIRR station.
The airport shuttle ran for a few years but as WN kept chopping flights the Free shuttle went to a paid shuttle which nobody used.
Buying AirTran getting bigger in LGA along with Uber and Lyft killed the easy Alternative of ISP.
Often times It was 40% cheaper to fly from LGA than ISP because of the fare wars.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:26 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
If they were to ever build a terminal on the north side of the airport with direct access to the LIRR, I could see European LCCs adding service to ISP. There is so much potential for this airport that is waiting to be tapped.
It would also be nice to see Air Canada try a seasonal YYZ-ISP on a CRJ2.


Expansion along the north side may have a few issues. The LIRR is expanding the operational footprint of the Mid-Suffolk yard to provide increased service once East side access is finished. There’s room over there but you have to be mindful of the approach to 15R as well. Can it be done, absolutely. You may need the town of islip to reduce the parking lot to make it happen.
An spur off the LIRR to ISP terminal plus dedicated one/two-stop ISP-Manhattan rail service 6-8 times per day might attract some NYC passenger traffic and make many area commuters quite happy.
Easy Rail access to NYC is an advantage ISP could have over SWF.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
WNflyer1523
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:40 pm

Another thing:
Here's my thoughts on why B6 won't even stick a toe in the water at ISP:
1) Frontier and Southwest. It would be a bloodbath.
2) They don't want to draw from their JFK operation.
3) No terminal space for them. B6 probably wouldn't want to go into the cramped concourse B, and there's no way that WN would lease gates to an airline that is directly competing with them.

If it wasn't for Southwest, I think B6 would be able to definitely make a daily A320 to FLL and MCO work, and if they're so concerned about drawing from JFK, then an E190. I still believe JFK would able to sustain itself if B6 added 2 daily flights at ISP. But we all know with the current state of affairs at ISP, they wouldn't want to get in a three-way blood battle and risk not-so-good loads if people chose Southwest and Frontier instead where they could be using those aircraft on other high-yielding NE-FL routes.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:47 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
If they were to ever build a terminal on the north side of the airport with direct access to the LIRR, I could see European LCCs adding service to ISP. There is so much potential for this airport that is waiting to be tapped.
It would also be nice to see Air Canada try a seasonal YYZ-ISP on a CRJ2.


Expansion along the north side may have a few issues. The LIRR is expanding the operational footprint of the Mid-Suffolk yard to provide increased service once East side access is finished. There’s room over there but you have to be mindful of the approach to 15R as well. Can it be done, absolutely. You may need the town of islip to reduce the parking lot to make it happen.
An spur off the LIRR to ISP terminal plus dedicated one/two-stop ISP-Manhattan rail service 6-8 times per day might attract some NYC passenger traffic and make many area commuters quite happy.
Easy Rail access to NYC is an advantage ISP could have over SWF.


ISP has a ton of potential. Hicksville station serves as a connection hub between Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma lines. You also have the Bay Shore Montauk line station less than 10 minutes south and express bus service from Manhattan via Hampton Jitney and North Fork Express.

Room for a new terminal: Yes

All that’s needed now is investment from the airlines. As quoted earlier, you can’t find airlines like Maxjet, La Compagnie, Norwegian, and Primera anymore. These carriers would take a chance on smaller airports like ISP and develop their footprint. Now all we have is Spirit and Frontier.
 
evank516
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:48 pm

Thoughts about ISP:
1) I'm fairly certain that only 4 of the A gates are exclusive to WN, the other 4 are preferential leases. Source: Theresa Rizzuto, former Airport Commissioner.
2) Delta can make ISP work in a non-pandemic demand climate. Legacy carriers operating to a smaller airport such as ISP rely on connecting traffic anyway, and DL has a very good fleet of RJs and small mainline aircraft to make it work efficiently. It won't hurt JFK or LGA despite what people think. Delta was all about secondary airports pre-pandemic servicing SWF, LGA, HPN, JFK and EWR. The ONLY NYC area airport they did NOT serve was ISP. So to cry JFK and LGA is pure baloney. ISP could probably handle 2-3x CR7s/CR9s from DTW and willing to bet they can manage an aircraft in the 717-A319 range on a daily ATL flight as well. If the A220s end up in ATL, that's your aircraft for ISP-ATL.
3) Long Island is densely populated with lots of business districts in Nassau and Suffolk counties that would jump at using ISP if there were enough options. Areas such as Garden City, Melville/Farmingdale, Hicksville, and Hauppauge have enough businesses and airlines could probably score some corporate accounts out of it. I live in Westbury in Nassau County and made it to Ronkonkoma in 30 minutes. It's only an extra 5-10 minutes longer than JFK and LGA from my house.
4) To say that airlines wouldn't start flights here because they would be relying on connections is absurd. How many people are flying from ISP-PHL and terminating there? Can't imagine much.

AA flew from ISP-ORD until 2004 on ERJs so they were actually competing with WN on ISP-MDW. CO flew ISP-CLE until 2003 I believe on ERJs. After Delta Express left, DL was still flying ISP-ATL on CR7s until the end when they downgauged to CR2s until 2008 and CVG was a mix of CRJs and CR7s until CVG was axed. In the 2000s I flew DL in and out of ISP quite a few times, and would start using ISP if they returned.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:51 am

jplatts wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.


I can't believe there's any O&D DTW-ISP, nor ISP-DTW, so you're really talking connecting traffic -- with a high-CASM CR2. Wouldn't many people just travel to JFK for a non-stop? More CR2s haven't been DL's plan for a long time now.


There were actually a few passengers a day connecting to DTW from ISP through BWI on WN, and the PDEW of ISP-DTW was approximately 7 passengers per day in Q3 2019.

There is likely enough O&D traffic between ISP and ATL to support possible nonstop service to ATL on DL as the PDEW of ISP-ATL was 67 passengers per day in Q3 2019. DL also has a FF base in Long Island due to its LGA and JFK hubs to support ISP-ATL nonstop service. DL had also (at least prior to the COVID-19 pandemic) insisted on serving some other secondary airports in major U.S. metropolitan areas such as BUR, MDW, DAL, HOU, MHT, SWF, PHF, OAK, ONT, SNA, SJC, and HPN.


Thanks for the PDEWs. Seven to DTW is nothing, so I repeat the concern: why would people want a CR2 and connection in Detroit when they can just take a JFK nonstop with price competition from multiple carriers?

The ATL PDEW of 67 suggests more opportunity. DL certainly serves a lot of tertiary destinations out of ATL that lack JFK nonstop. Maybe they could scare up a 717 for 6x weekly service.
 
chemmy
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:35 am

dumbell2424 wrote:
chemmy wrote:
Several times in the past, I opted to use ISP as an alternative to the other NYC-area airports. Getting to the airport on the LIRR and then a taxi was easy and convenient. The problems I had were getting a taxi from ISP back to the train. While it would be $5-$10 to get TO the airport, getting back to the train station was often $20+ and I even had instances where I had to wait in the cab so the cabbie could fill it up with passengers. It was so inconvenient that I stopped using ISP altogether. Just my two cents. This was, of course, before Lyft and Uber but now I just fly into LGA.


A few years ago Village Taxis made it a $5 flat-rate each way and I've had no problems in either direction.


That's great to know. Thanks for the update.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:48 pm

Since we’re discussing future possibilities for ISP, what are your thoughts about the following?

International service to airports with customs preclearance operations such as YYZ, YUL, BDA

Domestic destinations:
MCO, MIA, LAS, FLL, ORD, DFW, ATL, SJU, BQN, RSW, IAH, TPA

Most of these cities are easily reachable with a 737, A320/321 or an E175. ISP’s 7000ft runway should have no issues.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1894
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:11 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
Since we’re discussing future possibilities for ISP, what are your thoughts about the following?

International service to airports with customs preclearance operations such as YYZ, YUL, BDA

Domestic destinations:
MCO, MIA, LAS, FLL, ORD, DFW, ATL, SJU, BQN, RSW, IAH, TPA

Most of these cities are easily reachable with a 737, A320/321 or an E175. ISP’s 7000ft runway should have no issues.


A few years ago ISP had proposed to extend 6/24 by another 1000 feet for takeoffs but keeping a displaced threshold for 7000 feet for landing on Runway 24.
In addition Rebuilding gates 1-4 B with international CBP Facilities.
I wonder if it's still a long term goal or has the proposed project been shelved?

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
evank516
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I can't believe there's any O&D DTW-ISP, nor ISP-DTW, so you're really talking connecting traffic -- with a high-CASM CR2. Wouldn't many people just travel to JFK for a non-stop? More CR2s haven't been DL's plan for a long time now.


There were actually a few passengers a day connecting to DTW from ISP through BWI on WN, and the PDEW of ISP-DTW was approximately 7 passengers per day in Q3 2019.

There is likely enough O&D traffic between ISP and ATL to support possible nonstop service to ATL on DL as the PDEW of ISP-ATL was 67 passengers per day in Q3 2019. DL also has a FF base in Long Island due to its LGA and JFK hubs to support ISP-ATL nonstop service. DL had also (at least prior to the COVID-19 pandemic) insisted on serving some other secondary airports in major U.S. metropolitan areas such as BUR, MDW, DAL, HOU, MHT, SWF, PHF, OAK, ONT, SNA, SJC, and HPN.


Thanks for the PDEWs. Seven to DTW is nothing, so I repeat the concern: why would people want a CR2 and connection in Detroit when they can just take a JFK nonstop with price competition from multiple carriers?

The ATL PDEW of 67 suggests more opportunity. DL certainly serves a lot of tertiary destinations out of ATL that lack JFK nonstop. Maybe they could scare up a 717 for 6x weekly service.


Based on history, I can still see DL making DTW-ISP work despite the low PDEW. DL managed CVG-ISP back in the day with RJs, so I don't see why DTW wouldn't work just as well if not better. DL only terminated ISP when oil spiked and they announced the merger with NW. Also, given the amount of Long Islanders that go to the University of Michigan alone (and other colleges in the midwest), it would probably work. The fact that you have JFK and LGA so close by distorts the real potential here, and I guarantee you that 2 flights on a CR7 wouldn't hurt their JFK and LGA traffic in the slightest.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:33 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
Since we’re discussing future possibilities for ISP, what are your thoughts about the following?

International service to airports with customs preclearance operations such as YYZ, YUL, BDA

Domestic destinations:
MCO, MIA, LAS, FLL, ORD, DFW, ATL, SJU, BQN, RSW, IAH, TPA

Most of these cities are easily reachable with a 737, A320/321 or an E175. ISP’s 7000ft runway should have no issues.


A few years ago ISP had proposed to extend 6/24 by another 1000 feet for takeoffs but keeping a displaced threshold for 7000 feet for landing on Runway 24.
In addition Rebuilding gates 1-4 B with international CBP Facilities.
I wonder if it's still a long term goal or has the proposed project been shelved?

Flyguy


8000 feet is entering wide body territory. The NIMBY crowd would have a field day with that. The reason I proposed flights with customs preclearance is because of the lack of facilities. Customs usually sends vehicles from JFK to handle flights at FRG and ISP( You can tell this from the JFK GSE license plate on the cars). There’s a $1 million dollar renewal project to upgrade the existing terminal building but I truly hope we get fresh investments from a company like Breeze. As mentioned earlier, if a new north side terminal is possible using available space near the town of islip parking lot, Breeze can make a significant impact on commercial traffic at ISP.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 pm

evank516 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

There were actually a few passengers a day connecting to DTW from ISP through BWI on WN, and the PDEW of ISP-DTW was approximately 7 passengers per day in Q3 2019.

There is likely enough O&D traffic between ISP and ATL to support possible nonstop service to ATL on DL as the PDEW of ISP-ATL was 67 passengers per day in Q3 2019. DL also has a FF base in Long Island due to its LGA and JFK hubs to support ISP-ATL nonstop service. DL had also (at least prior to the COVID-19 pandemic) insisted on serving some other secondary airports in major U.S. metropolitan areas such as BUR, MDW, DAL, HOU, MHT, SWF, PHF, OAK, ONT, SNA, SJC, and HPN.


Thanks for the PDEWs. Seven to DTW is nothing, so I repeat the concern: why would people want a CR2 and connection in Detroit when they can just take a JFK nonstop with price competition from multiple carriers?

The ATL PDEW of 67 suggests more opportunity. DL certainly serves a lot of tertiary destinations out of ATL that lack JFK nonstop. Maybe they could scare up a 717 for 6x weekly service.


Based on history, I can still see DL making DTW-ISP work despite the low PDEW. DL managed CVG-ISP back in the day with RJs, so I don't see why DTW wouldn't work just as well if not better. DL only terminated ISP when oil spiked and they announced the merger with NW. Also, given the amount of Long Islanders that go to the University of Michigan alone (and other colleges in the midwest), it would probably work. The fact that you have JFK and LGA so close by distorts the real potential here, and I guarantee you that 2 flights on a CR7 wouldn't hurt their JFK and LGA traffic in the slightest.


If an RJ flight gets me closer to home without dealing with a trip on the Van Wyck or the Grand Central, by all means, here’s my money!

With the amount of CRJ-700/900 and E170/175’s in delta fleet, they can make anything work out of islip.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1894
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:03 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
Since we’re discussing future possibilities for ISP, what are your thoughts about the following?

International service to airports with customs preclearance operations such as YYZ, YUL, BDA

Domestic destinations:
MCO, MIA, LAS, FLL, ORD, DFW, ATL, SJU, BQN, RSW, IAH, TPA

Most of these cities are easily reachable with a 737, A320/321 or an E175. ISP’s 7000ft runway should have no issues.


A few years ago ISP had proposed to extend 6/24 by another 1000 feet for takeoffs but keeping a displaced threshold for 7000 feet for landing on Runway 24.
In addition Rebuilding gates 1-4 B with international CBP Facilities.
I wonder if it's still a long term goal or has the proposed project been shelved?

Flyguy


8000 feet is entering wide body territory. The NIMBY crowd would have a field day with that. The reason I proposed flights with customs preclearance is because of the lack of facilities. Customs usually sends vehicles from JFK to handle flights at FRG and ISP( You can tell this from the JFK GSE license plate on the cars). There’s a $1 million dollar renewal project to upgrade the existing terminal building but I truly hope we get fresh investments from a company like Breeze. As mentioned earlier, if a new north side terminal is possible using available space near the town of islip parking lot, Breeze can make a significant impact on commercial traffic at ISP.


So looking at the ISP airport main home page I found all the proposed changes in the 2017 master plan. Estimated completion 2019/2020.
Other than the elimination of one Runway I haven't Found any other updates on construction.
The 2017 master plan is quite detailed.
It even had a reproposed relocation of the Terminal building to the North side of the field next to the LIRR.
I tried posting a link but it's not going thru.
Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:17 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:

A few years ago ISP had proposed to extend 6/24 by another 1000 feet for takeoffs but keeping a displaced threshold for 7000 feet for landing on Runway 24.
In addition Rebuilding gates 1-4 B with international CBP Facilities.
I wonder if it's still a long term goal or has the proposed project been shelved?

Flyguy


8000 feet is entering wide body territory. The NIMBY crowd would have a field day with that. The reason I proposed flights with customs preclearance is because of the lack of facilities. Customs usually sends vehicles from JFK to handle flights at FRG and ISP( You can tell this from the JFK GSE license plate on the cars). There’s a $1 million dollar renewal project to upgrade the existing terminal building but I truly hope we get fresh investments from a company like Breeze. As mentioned earlier, if a new north side terminal is possible using available space near the town of islip parking lot, Breeze can make a significant impact on commercial traffic at ISP.


So looking at the ISP airport main home page I found all the proposed changes in the 2017 master plan. Estimated completion 2019/2020.
Other than the elimination of one Runway I haven't Found any other updates on construction.
The 2017 master plan is quite detailed.
It even had a reproposed relocation of the Terminal building to the North side of the field next to the LIRR.
I tried posting a link but it's not going thru.
Flyguy


I saw that as well. I just feels like there’s so much untapped potential at ISP. Even people from Connecticut can benefit. Provide an airport shuttle from the ferry at Port Jefferson to the terminal. Much easier that traveling to JFK or LGA.
 
ScottB
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:03 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.


The real problem with these suggestions is that they don't make money for either DL or AA. High-cost RJs to ATL/DTW/CLT/ORD end up being mostly filled with basic economy fares priced to compete with F9. There are plenty of business travelers in the area, but they won't be attracted by a couple of RJs daily to a hub when there are so many non-stop choices available at JFK & LGA. Sure, the Van Wyck and Grand Central are pain-in-the-butt drives but so is missing a connection at ATL or CLT and getting stuck there overnight. Even if you have to connect to get to LGA and miss your connection there's probably another flight in an hour or two.

jfklganyc wrote:
There was a time WN was supposed to grow to 40 plus flights. This was 2004-2005.

In came LGA slots and the rest is history.


Nah what really happened to WN @ ISP was B6 @ JFK and BOS. You're not gonna get people from NYC to hike out another 50 miles to ISP with B6 at JFK. The other key problem was the post-9/11 changes in air travel. WN built that big concourse at ISP because they planned to use it to connect traffic from places like PVD and MHT -- and PVD-ISP did run for a brief period.

ztarizona wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting if the town could 'eminent domain' seize the gates and by government force, force WN to release the unused gates, or perhaps less severe....force WN to engage in good faith negotiations with other carriers on those gates. Would probably be quite the showdown but could open up some more capacity if the demand is there.


I think you vastly overestimate the desire of other airlines to use those gates. AA is in WN's concourse and F9 probably prefers lower costs in Concourse B. Have you seen the terminals they use in AUS and TTN?
 
evank516
Posts: 2122
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:13 pm

ScottB wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.


The real problem with these suggestions is that they don't make money for either DL or AA. High-cost RJs to ATL/DTW/CLT/ORD end up being mostly filled with basic economy fares priced to compete with F9. There are plenty of business travelers in the area, but they won't be attracted by a couple of RJs daily to a hub when there are so many non-stop choices available at JFK & LGA. Sure, the Van Wyck and Grand Central are pain-in-the-butt drives but so is missing a connection at ATL or CLT and getting stuck there overnight. Even if you have to connect to get to LGA and miss your connection there's probably another flight in an hour or two.


Sure, but ISP is also outside of the Class Bravo airspace. They're much less delay prone as well. They're not slot restricted like JFK and LGA, nor capacity restricted like HPN, there's no ground stops and gate holds anywhere near the extent of the big 3. Rather appealing to Long Island travelers who have to deal with the hussle and bussle of JFK and LGA otherwise. Anyone bringing up AA flights to CLT or DL flights to ATL and DTW aren't talking about service that hasn't existed here before either. This is all service that was there in the past (trade CVG for DTW) and would work rather well in a non-pandemic environment because they lasted in a post-9/11 environment (DL to ATL and CVG, AA to ORD). In 2019's economy, these would have been successful without a doubt. What we now need to do is wait and see how things come back.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:59 pm

evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.


The real problem with these suggestions is that they don't make money for either DL or AA. High-cost RJs to ATL/DTW/CLT/ORD end up being mostly filled with basic economy fares priced to compete with F9. There are plenty of business travelers in the area, but they won't be attracted by a couple of RJs daily to a hub when there are so many non-stop choices available at JFK & LGA. Sure, the Van Wyck and Grand Central are pain-in-the-butt drives but so is missing a connection at ATL or CLT and getting stuck there overnight. Even if you have to connect to get to LGA and miss your connection there's probably another flight in an hour or two.


Sure, but ISP is also outside of the Class Bravo airspace. They're much less delay prone as well. They're not slot restricted like JFK and LGA, nor capacity restricted like HPN, there's no ground stops and gate holds anywhere near the extent of the big 3. Rather appealing to Long Island travelers who have to deal with the hussle and bussle of JFK and LGA otherwise. Anyone bringing up AA flights to CLT or DL flights to ATL and DTW aren't talking about service that hasn't existed here before either. This is all service that was there in the past (trade CVG for DTW) and would work rather well in a non-pandemic environment because they lasted in a post-9/11 environment (DL to ATL and CVG, AA to ORD). In 2019's economy, these would have been successful without a doubt. What we now need to do is wait and see how things come back.


Unfortunately just like Farmingdale, ISP does have departure and arrival issues because of JFK. Traffic on approach to JFK 22L/R must hit the Deer Park VOR at 3,000 feet. Usually this traffic is heading westbound near the L.I.E or further north near the Walt Whitman Mall. Just like LGA, Farmingdale and ISP are catering to Kennedy at times

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