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evank516
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:44 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

The real problem with these suggestions is that they don't make money for either DL or AA. High-cost RJs to ATL/DTW/CLT/ORD end up being mostly filled with basic economy fares priced to compete with F9. There are plenty of business travelers in the area, but they won't be attracted by a couple of RJs daily to a hub when there are so many non-stop choices available at JFK & LGA. Sure, the Van Wyck and Grand Central are pain-in-the-butt drives but so is missing a connection at ATL or CLT and getting stuck there overnight. Even if you have to connect to get to LGA and miss your connection there's probably another flight in an hour or two.


Sure, but ISP is also outside of the Class Bravo airspace. They're much less delay prone as well. They're not slot restricted like JFK and LGA, nor capacity restricted like HPN, there's no ground stops and gate holds anywhere near the extent of the big 3. Rather appealing to Long Island travelers who have to deal with the hussle and bussle of JFK and LGA otherwise. Anyone bringing up AA flights to CLT or DL flights to ATL and DTW aren't talking about service that hasn't existed here before either. This is all service that was there in the past (trade CVG for DTW) and would work rather well in a non-pandemic environment because they lasted in a post-9/11 environment (DL to ATL and CVG, AA to ORD). In 2019's economy, these would have been successful without a doubt. What we now need to do is wait and see how things come back.


Unfortunately just like Farmingdale, ISP does have departure and arrival issues because of JFK. Traffic on approach to JFK 22L/R must hit the Deer Park VOR at 3,000 feet. Usually this traffic is heading westbound near the L.I.E or further north near the Walt Whitman Mall. Just like LGA, Farmingdale and ISP are catering to Kennedy at times


I've flown that approach my share of times, shouldn't be much of a spacing issue, though. Usually you come up west of FRG then turn west over the LIE. Even so, aircraft on approach for runway 6 typically come in at the Captree Bridge, west of FRG. You still don't see anywhere near the delays at ISP that you do at JFK and LGA.
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:14 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
WN flew to LAS

Very popular flight. Axed because it was full of award tickets.

There was a time WN was supposed to grow to 40 plus flights. This was 2004-2005.

In came LGA slots and the rest is history.

I agree. People have those glory days of secondary airports in their minds, but then consolidation happened which freed up slots at primary airports and the world changed. It won't change back till the primaries become so full that secondaries become attractive again. CV19 and whatever follows have set back that process several years.
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JFKalumni
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:24 pm

evank516 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
evank516 wrote:

Sure, but ISP is also outside of the Class Bravo airspace. They're much less delay prone as well. They're not slot restricted like JFK and LGA, nor capacity restricted like HPN, there's no ground stops and gate holds anywhere near the extent of the big 3. Rather appealing to Long Island travelers who have to deal with the hussle and bussle of JFK and LGA otherwise. Anyone bringing up AA flights to CLT or DL flights to ATL and DTW aren't talking about service that hasn't existed here before either. This is all service that was there in the past (trade CVG for DTW) and would work rather well in a non-pandemic environment because they lasted in a post-9/11 environment (DL to ATL and CVG, AA to ORD). In 2019's economy, these would have been successful without a doubt. What we now need to do is wait and see how things come back.


Unfortunately just like Farmingdale, ISP does have departure and arrival issues because of JFK. Traffic on approach to JFK 22L/R must hit the Deer Park VOR at 3,000 feet. Usually this traffic is heading westbound near the L.I.E or further north near the Walt Whitman Mall. Just like LGA, Farmingdale and ISP are catering to Kennedy at times


I've flown that approach my share of times, shouldn't be much of a spacing issue, though. Usually you come up west of FRG then turn west over the LIE. Even so, aircraft on approach for runway 6 typically come in at the Captree Bridge, west of FRG. You still don't see anywhere near the delays at ISP that you do at JFK and LGA.


That’s one of the main reasons why I love the south practice area near Captree monument. Flying northbound from FRG or ISP in a GA aircraft with class bravo airspace above your head at 4,000 get is unnerving at times especially considering the amount of wide bodies flying that approach in the afternoon.

ISP Commercial traffic is safe along the south shore as long as it remains above the students at 2000 feet. Traffic around Calverton is another story.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
WN flew to LAS

Very popular flight. Axed because it was full of award tickets.

There was a time WN was supposed to grow to 40 plus flights. This was 2004-2005.

In came LGA slots and the rest is history.

I agree. People have those glory days of secondary airports in their minds, but then consolidation happened which freed up slots at primary airports and the world changed. It won't change back till the primaries become so full that secondaries become attractive again. CV19 and whatever follows have set back that process several years.


True

But it also presents an opportunity for a company like Breeze to make a significant impact. There entire business model is based on airports such as ISP and MDW. You can cover a lot of ground with A220’s and E-195’s out of ISP.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:37 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
But it also presents an opportunity for a company like Breeze to make a significant impact. There entire business model is based on airports such as ISP and MDW. You can cover a lot of ground with A220’s and E-195’s out of ISP.


Here were the load factors, number of passengers, number of seats, and PDEW's of WN NYC-MDW nonstop flights in 2011 and 2012:
LGA-MDW in 2011 - 414823 passengers, 474386 seats, 87.44% load factor, PDEW of 380 on WN
EWR-MDW in 2011 - 279412 passengers, 417915 seats, 66.86% load factor, PDEW of 200 on WN
ISP-MDW in 2011 - 239675 passengers, 321594 seats, 74.53% load factor, PDEW of 147 on WN
LGA-MDW in 2012 - 449968 passengers, 509774 seats, 88.27% load factor, PDEW of 319 on WN
EWR-MDW in 2012 - 385153 passengers, 546079 seats, 70.53% load factor, PDEW of 329 on WN
ISP-MDW in 2012 - 57114 passengers, 84019 seats, 67.98% load factor, PDEW of 55 on WN

WN can likely make the return of ISP-MDW nonstop service work as WN still had some O&D traffic on its ISP-MDW nonstop route after adding LGA-MDW and EWR-MDW nonstop service but prior to dropping ISP-MDW nonstop service back in June 2012. WN would also be able to offer connections to some other destinations from ISP through MDW if it re-adds ISP-MDW nonstop service.

WN is also more likely to easily fiil ISP-MDW nonstop flights than a new entrant such as Breeze with
(a) the brand recognition that WN already has in Greater Chicago, Long Island, and other markets in the U.S.,
(b) the connections that are available on WN at MDW, and
(c) WN already having a FF base in the Chicago area and other U.S. markets to support the return of ISP-MDW nonstop service.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:41 pm

When people are ready to fly again who knows when that is , alot of people I've spoken to want smaller less crowded airports. ISP might benefit from that but it's a long time away until people are ready to fly. Too far to really plan anything but an airline like frontier could add some more point to point routes out of ISP when the average person is ready to fly, which isn't soon
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm

jplatts wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
But it also presents an opportunity for a company like Breeze to make a significant impact. There entire business model is based on airports such as ISP and MDW. You can cover a lot of ground with A220’s and E-195’s out of ISP.


Here were the load factors, number of passengers, number of seats, and PDEW's of WN NYC-MDW nonstop flights in 2011 and 2012:
LGA-MDW in 2011 - 414823 passengers, 474386 seats, 87.44% load factor, PDEW of 380 on WN
EWR-MDW in 2011 - 279412 passengers, 417915 seats, 66.86% load factor, PDEW of 200 on WN
ISP-MDW in 2011 - 239675 passengers, 321594 seats, 74.53% load factor, PDEW of 147 on WN
LGA-MDW in 2012 - 449968 passengers, 509774 seats, 88.27% load factor, PDEW of 319 on WN
EWR-MDW in 2012 - 385153 passengers, 546079 seats, 70.53% load factor, PDEW of 329 on WN
ISP-MDW in 2012 - 57114 passengers, 84019 seats, 67.98% load factor, PDEW of 55 on WN

WN can likely make the return of ISP-MDW nonstop service work as WN still had some O&D traffic on its ISP-MDW nonstop route after adding LGA-MDW and EWR-MDW nonstop service but prior to dropping ISP-MDW nonstop service back in June 2012. WN would also be able to offer connections to some other destinations from ISP through MDW if it re-adds ISP-MDW nonstop service.

WN is also more likely to easily fiil ISP-MDW nonstop flights than a new entrant such as Breeze with
(a) the brand recognition that WN already has in Greater Chicago, Long Island, and other markets in the U.S.,
(b) the connections that are available on WN at MDW, and
(c) WN already having a FF base in the Chicago area and other U.S. markets to support the return of ISP-MDW nonstop service.


Thanks !!!

WN made their decision in the NYC area with their recent departure from EWR. They’re all in on LGA. I’m sure the WN loyalists in Nassau and Suffolk county will make their way to LGA. Hopefully in 1-2 years time, passenger levels return to normal.
 
evank516
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:00 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
evank516 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

Unfortunately just like Farmingdale, ISP does have departure and arrival issues because of JFK. Traffic on approach to JFK 22L/R must hit the Deer Park VOR at 3,000 feet. Usually this traffic is heading westbound near the L.I.E or further north near the Walt Whitman Mall. Just like LGA, Farmingdale and ISP are catering to Kennedy at times


I've flown that approach my share of times, shouldn't be much of a spacing issue, though. Usually you come up west of FRG then turn west over the LIE. Even so, aircraft on approach for runway 6 typically come in at the Captree Bridge, west of FRG. You still don't see anywhere near the delays at ISP that you do at JFK and LGA.


That’s one of the main reasons why I love the south practice area near Captree monument. Flying northbound from FRG or ISP in a GA aircraft with class bravo airspace above your head at 4,000 get is unnerving at times especially considering the amount of wide bodies flying that approach in the afternoon.

ISP Commercial traffic is safe along the south shore as long as it remains above the students at 2000 feet. Traffic around Calverton is another story.


Have to correct my typo here, runway 6 approaches come in at the Captree Bridge which is EAST of FRG, not west.

Also worth noting that FRG is on the outer fringe of the Class B aipace.
 
cporcelli78
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:25 pm

evank516 wrote:
Thoughts about ISP:
1) I'm fairly certain that only 4 of the A gates are exclusive to WN, the other 4 are preferential leases. Source: Theresa Rizzuto, former Airport Commissioner.
2) Delta can make ISP work in a non-pandemic demand climate. Legacy carriers operating to a smaller airport such as ISP rely on connecting traffic anyway, and DL has a very good fleet of RJs and small mainline aircraft to make it work efficiently. It won't hurt JFK or LGA despite what people think. Delta was all about secondary airports pre-pandemic servicing SWF, LGA, HPN, JFK and EWR. The ONLY NYC area airport they did NOT serve was ISP. So to cry JFK and LGA is pure baloney. ISP could probably handle 2-3x CR7s/CR9s from DTW and willing to bet they can manage an aircraft in the 717-A319 range on a daily ATL flight as well. If the A220s end up in ATL, that's your aircraft for ISP-ATL.
3) Long Island is densely populated with lots of business districts in Nassau and Suffolk counties that would jump at using ISP if there were enough options. Areas such as Garden City, Melville/Farmingdale, Hicksville, and Hauppauge have enough businesses and airlines could probably score some corporate accounts out of it. I live in Westbury in Nassau County and made it to Ronkonkoma in 30 minutes. It's only an extra 5-10 minutes longer than JFK and LGA from my house.
4) To say that airlines wouldn't start flights here because they would be relying on connections is absurd. How many people are flying from ISP-PHL and terminating there? Can't imagine much.

AA flew from ISP-ORD until 2004 on ERJs so they were actually competing with WN on ISP-MDW. CO flew ISP-CLE until 2003 I believe on ERJs. After Delta Express left, DL was still flying ISP-ATL on CR7s until the end when they downgauged to CR2s until 2008 and CVG was a mix of CRJs and CR7s until CVG was axed. In the 2000s I flew DL in and out of ISP quite a few times, and would start using ISP if they returned.



For many years AA flew ISP-ORD on MD80s, not ERJs.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:47 pm

STT757 wrote:
La Compagnie caters to business travelers, not leisure. And even for the leisure carriers the experiment with outer region secondary airports for trans-Atlantic traffic is over, there will be plenty of space at EWR, JFK, BOS etc.. for whomever for years to come.

Agreed....
A lot of what happens next depends on the election. If it turns out poorly, I would not be surprised to see a return to something like CAA-era routing regulations, to “Protect competition”.
 
klm617
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:55 am

evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
Get DL in here with a few RJ trips a day to ATL and DTW. I don't know what's holding them back - maybe they're afraid with Frontier running ISP-ATL. But Detroit should easily work with 1 or 2 CRJ2s a day.
And for American... what is holding them back from adding ISP-CLT?? Probably one of the most highly requested routes out of ISP. When air travel gets better they could easily make it work on a CRJ or even an E175. This might be a bit of a long shot, but I could see ORD as well.


The real problem with these suggestions is that they don't make money for either DL or AA. High-cost RJs to ATL/DTW/CLT/ORD end up being mostly filled with basic economy fares priced to compete with F9. There are plenty of business travelers in the area, but they won't be attracted by a couple of RJs daily to a hub when there are so many non-stop choices available at JFK & LGA. Sure, the Van Wyck and Grand Central are pain-in-the-butt drives but so is missing a connection at ATL or CLT and getting stuck there overnight. Even if you have to connect to get to LGA and miss your connection there's probably another flight in an hour or two.


Sure, but ISP is also outside of the Class Bravo airspace. They're much less delay prone as well. They're not slot restricted like JFK and LGA, nor capacity restricted like HPN, there's no ground stops and gate holds anywhere near the extent of the big 3. Rather appealing to Long Island travelers who have to deal with the hussle and bussle of JFK and LGA otherwise. Anyone bringing up AA flights to CLT or DL flights to ATL and DTW aren't talking about service that hasn't existed here before either. This is all service that was there in the past (trade CVG for DTW) and would work rather well in a non-pandemic environment because they lasted in a post-9/11 environment (DL to ATL and CVG, AA to ORD). In 2019's economy, these would have been successful without a doubt. What we now need to do is wait and see how things come back.


ISP was served from DTW by both F9 and AA in the past.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:17 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

When people are ready to fly again who knows when that is , alot of people I've spoken to want smaller less crowded airports. ISP might benefit from that but it's a long time away until people are ready to fly. Too far to really plan anything but an airline like frontier could add some more point to point routes out of ISP when the average person is ready to fly, which isn't soon


I made a similar argument in favor of LGB vs. LAX and was pooh-poohed by a certain yield-obsessed poster on here (whom I respect by the way, though disagree with on occasion). I agree that once things pick up there will be people who will opt for a less crowded airport experience if possible and the fares are similar. All a guessing game at this point.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
evank516
Posts: 2122
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Re: The Future of Long Island MacArthur Airport - KISP

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:03 am

cporcelli78 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Thoughts about ISP:
1) I'm fairly certain that only 4 of the A gates are exclusive to WN, the other 4 are preferential leases. Source: Theresa Rizzuto, former Airport Commissioner.
2) Delta can make ISP work in a non-pandemic demand climate. Legacy carriers operating to a smaller airport such as ISP rely on connecting traffic anyway, and DL has a very good fleet of RJs and small mainline aircraft to make it work efficiently. It won't hurt JFK or LGA despite what people think. Delta was all about secondary airports pre-pandemic servicing SWF, LGA, HPN, JFK and EWR. The ONLY NYC area airport they did NOT serve was ISP. So to cry JFK and LGA is pure baloney. ISP could probably handle 2-3x CR7s/CR9s from DTW and willing to bet they can manage an aircraft in the 717-A319 range on a daily ATL flight as well. If the A220s end up in ATL, that's your aircraft for ISP-ATL.
3) Long Island is densely populated with lots of business districts in Nassau and Suffolk counties that would jump at using ISP if there were enough options. Areas such as Garden City, Melville/Farmingdale, Hicksville, and Hauppauge have enough businesses and airlines could probably score some corporate accounts out of it. I live in Westbury in Nassau County and made it to Ronkonkoma in 30 minutes. It's only an extra 5-10 minutes longer than JFK and LGA from my house.
4) To say that airlines wouldn't start flights here because they would be relying on connections is absurd. How many people are flying from ISP-PHL and terminating there? Can't imagine much.

AA flew from ISP-ORD until 2004 on ERJs so they were actually competing with WN on ISP-MDW. CO flew ISP-CLE until 2003 I believe on ERJs. After Delta Express left, DL was still flying ISP-ATL on CR7s until the end when they downgauged to CR2s until 2008 and CVG was a mix of CRJs and CR7s until CVG was axed. In the 2000s I flew DL in and out of ISP quite a few times, and would start using ISP if they returned.



For many years AA flew ISP-ORD on MD80s, not ERJs.


That may have been so in the 80s and 90s, but in the 2000s until 2004 they did indeed fly ISP-ORD on ERJs.

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