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cybergus
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Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:50 am

Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:24 pm

Heya all,

My sister had an itinerary from SCQ to LIS in TAP. However, upon checking it the other day, the itinerary now says OPO-LIS with the SCQ-OPO segment being done by bus. Did they cancel the route before even starting it? Shouldn't they communicate this to the passengers?
LAN Excellence in Flight
 
dcajet
Posts: 4644
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:59 pm

Have you talked to the airline?
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7734
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:24 pm

You might try a dummy booking for your travel date and see if they are still selling it.
 
santos
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:47 pm

Hey,

The route launch has now been postponed until late March 2021z
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... arch-2021/
 
airbazar
Posts: 10107
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:17 pm

LIS-SCQ without American tourists connecting onto this flight makes zero sense.
My guess is TP is trying to figure out what the EU's recommendation means to them.
Portugal was supposed to open up to the world on July 1st, including Americans and Brazilians until the EU put the brakes on them just this past week.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:25 pm

I wonder what will happen now that TAP will be nationalised.

I imagine a few routes will be chopped. On the other hand, I reckon if TAP would just focus on LIS and will decrease or just close OPO's hub. If that is the case, LIS-SCQ's will make more sense.
 
santi319
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:39 pm

TAP had the right idea, connect the Americas with southern Europe with cheap fares. Yes WW tried it but TP seemed to have the Southern European and leisure destinations in their mind vs big urban centers.

In the future this plan could work, Spanish, Italian, Morrocan and French tourist destination one stop in LIS to North American urban areas and rich Latin American cities. Its a good plan. Right idea at the wrong time.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10107
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:18 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I wonder what will happen now that TAP will be nationalised.

I imagine a few routes will be chopped. On the other hand, I reckon if TAP would just focus on LIS and will decrease or just close OPO's hub. If that is the case, LIS-SCQ's will make more sense.


The latest news that I've read is that TAP is not being nationalized. Neeleman is selling his share and getting out, which to me is a huge mistake on the government's part.
The government will end up with 70% ownership which puts it in charge but I don't really know the difference between that and actual "nationalization". But the headlines so far are "TAP avoids nationalizaton".
https://econews.pt/2020/07/02/last-minu ... alization/
https://www.time24.news/en/2020/07/tap- ... leave.html
Either way I think we will see the exact opposite of what you are suggesting because with the government in control the political pressure to maintain OPO on equal grounds with LIS will be just too great. I know this because that's exactly where TAP was before. With this action TAP just took a 20 year step backwards IMO.
 
SCQ83
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:40 pm

I don't see it that way.

It never made any sense in a country the size of Portugal to have two hubs (LIS and OPO). The only reason for this was LIS was full and the market was booming. Now LIS is not full anymore and the market has collapsed.

I don't see what "political pressure" will make the North. Is it going to become independent (like Catalonia or Padania)? No. Will it set up "Linhas Aéreas Portuguesas do Norte"? Who knows; it would be a failure.

Political pressure is fine when the cake is big and there is food for everybody (like pre-2020). When the cake is small it is just the fight for survival. Since TAP will need to downsize yes or yes, it will be the Lisbon economic and political powers trying to keep as much as possible in LIS. Which is just natural as Lisbon anyway is the economic, corporate, tourism and political capital of Portugal.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10107
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:33 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't see it that way.

It never made any sense in a country the size of Portugal to have two hubs (LIS and OPO). The only reason for this was LIS was full and the market was booming. Now LIS is not full anymore and the market has collapsed.

I don't see what "political pressure" will make the North. Is it going to become independent (like Catalonia or Padania)? No. Will it set up "Linhas Aéreas Portuguesas do Norte"? Who knows; it would be a failure.

Political pressure is the ONLY reason TAP flies p-2-p from OPO, and even some long haul routes at that. As you say, there is zero necessity for TAP to operate p-2-p out of OPO and I agree. Every one with a logical mind agrees.
LIS being at capacity has nothing to do with it. TAP has had flights from OPO for decades and a couple of years ago when it cut routes from OPO it created a political pandemonium.
I don't think that you fully understand the political environment in Portugal. To win a national election a party needs votes in the north and south. You cannot win a national election by ignoring or alienating either greater Porto or greater Lisbon. BA can ignore Manchester because they are not government owned. LH can ignore Berlin, AF can ignore Marseille because they are not government owned. A government owned airline needs to satisfy political interests. It's that simple. That is why as a general rule of thumb, government owned airlines are failures.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:48 am

airbazar wrote:
I don't think that you fully understand the political environment in Portugal. To win a national election a party needs votes in the north and south. You cannot win a national election by ignoring or alienating either greater Porto or greater Lisbon. BA can ignore Manchester because they are not government owned.


I understand Portugal. There is nothing exceptional about it, as some of you want to picture it. There is nothing exceptional about OPO which at best is a secondary market. There are political elections and "regionalisms" in every other country in Europe. And in the upcoming crisis (which undoubtedly will make Portugal head towards a major economic crash), the last worry of most people in Northern Portugal is whether TAP has flights to Milan or Brussels from OPO.

Alitalia (nationalised) has largely ignored the wealthier, more populated North of Italy (which wants to become independent) to favour Rome. Iberia (even before privatisation) ignored Barcelona (and Catalonia) historically. And Milan and Barcelona are much more key and "controversial" markets than OPO, being Portugal a very "homogeneous" country.

Having this dual hub (LIS/OPO) was a sign of the times, of abundance. Let's say TAP had 100 flights, so 80 were to LIS and 20 to OPO. If tomorrow TAP downsizes to 70 flights... LIS is going to do everything in their hands to keep those 70 flights. Which is not also "natural" but also recommended in order to keep a competitive hub. Splitting those flights over two hubs (and neither TAP or Portugal are Lufthansa or Germany to handle two hubs like FRA or MUC) will only make things worse.
 
dfpinto
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:48 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:43 am

I have to agree with our fellow user from Santiago. Portugal is too small for a 2 hub operation and looking at the near-future prospects, people all over the country should be more worried if they'll have a job and food on the table rather than a direct connection to Milan.

I followed this case on the news and honestly it's getting so exhausting. They're kicking out Neeleman from the shareholder structure and selling it as a victory. You have one of the best entrepreneurs in the industry backing you up, but that's not good enough apparently, because it doesn't get you votes. I think we really need another Troika to put some sense into these politicians.
 
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fidelidade
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:15 am

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:55 am

dfpinto wrote:
I have to agree with our fellow user from Santiago. Portugal is too small for a 2 hub operation and looking at the near-future prospects, people all over the country should be more worried if they'll have a job and food on the table rather than a direct connection to Milan.

I followed this case on the news and honestly it's getting so exhausting. They're kicking out Neeleman from the shareholder structure and selling it as a victory. You have one of the best entrepreneurs in the industry backing you up, but that's not good enough apparently, because it doesn't get you votes. I think we really need another Troika to put some sense into these politicians.


This is so right. I have been living here, and the Minister Pedro is absolutely ego maniac and crazy. He thinks he can run a better airline than Neeleman. The good news is this is going to Brussels and they just made their life more complicated. After all, who will believe in a government plan?

Only the CEO Antonolado has been sacked. Let us see. I hope the rest of the government and the private shareholder has some sense. TAP has a very strong management team, with Rafael their CFO from Azul (though, a liability). Their chief commercial officer (Arik) is one of the smartest rising airline stars out there. He has been there 8 months, and pre-COVID was already showing full revenue turnaround and common sense network decisions. I hear their chief operations guy (Ramiro) is very well regarded and ensured improvements in on time at LIS hub.

It would be crazy to me that in the middle of the greatest airline storm, if the government is political and dumb enough to fire them all.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10107
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Did TP cancelled SCQ-LIS before even started it?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:18 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I don't think that you fully understand the political environment in Portugal. To win a national election a party needs votes in the north and south. You cannot win a national election by ignoring or alienating either greater Porto or greater Lisbon. BA can ignore Manchester because they are not government owned.


I understand Portugal. There is nothing exceptional about it, as some of you want to picture it. There is nothing exceptional about OPO which at best is a secondary market. There are political elections and "regionalisms" in every other country in Europe. And in the upcoming crisis (which undoubtedly will make Portugal head towards a major economic crash), the last worry of most people in Northern Portugal is whether TAP has flights to Milan or Brussels from OPO.

Alitalia (nationalised) has largely ignored the wealthier, more populated North of Italy (which wants to become independent) to favour Rome. Iberia (even before privatisation) ignored Barcelona (and Catalonia) historically. And Milan and Barcelona are much more key and "controversial" markets than OPO, being Portugal a very "homogeneous" country.


Portugal is different in a context that TAP is government owned. Alitalia is in shambles in part because for decades they were forced to run a dual hub operation between FCO and MXP. Iberia was in shambles until IAG rescued it from the government's hands. They too had a significant presence in Barcelona at one point but they cut most of the routes after privatization.
Let me make it clear: I want TAP to stop flying p-2-p from OPO. It's bad for TAP. But under government control i know that the exact opposite will happen.
This is a bad deal for the Portuguese tax payer. It's worse than bad, it's horrible.

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