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avgeekjohn
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JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:14 pm

JetBlue is finalizing a deal with its unions to not involuntarily lay off or furlough workers until 2021. That's a big move on their part. Thoughts on how well that'll go/if any airlines will follow suit?

source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/01/jet ... -may-2021/
Holding short of life's runway
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Perhaps a Mod can correct the title. The linked article doesn't say workers - it says pilots specifically.

It is unclear whether this agreement applies to, or will eventually be extended to, other employees at JetBlue.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Perhaps a Mod can correct the title. The linked article doesn't say workers - it says pilots specifically.

It is unclear whether this agreement applies to, or will eventually be extended to, other employees at JetBlue.


Correct. Title needs clarification. This is an agreement specifically extended to Flight Operations and was negotiated referencing the furlough mitigation section of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. As of today, pilots are the only workgroup at JetBlue with a fully ratified and enforceable union contract.

Fine print details of the deal to be released in a few weeks but so far, good news and a sign of relief.
 
wetpantsmcgee
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:56 pm

This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:02 pm

wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:14 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Truer words never spoken
Last edited by BlueBaller on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:14 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:28 pm

FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:01 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.
 
CRJ5000
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:36 pm

Congrats to Jetblue and ALPA for agreeing on this. Happy for all the pilots, and very interested to see the details of what was negotiated.
Hopefully other airlines can work something out, too.
 
Boof02671
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:41 pm

FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.

No flights less pilots needed and I don’t where you got your information but gate agents make $30 or more an hour at the majors. No where near $12
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:00 am

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:35 am

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?


An Avis gift card...
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:39 am

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?


An Avis gift card...


That was part of the perks opt out. The poster is talking about needing a union to avoid furlough. And I’m asking if he knows of any of the non-union workgroups at JetBlue being furloughed...

(and I’m pretty confident I know the answer)
 
Italianflyer
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:40 am

C'mon people...let's get this back on the rails.

IMHO this is pretty shrewd of B6 & ALPA to prevent a skill deficit down the road. Legacies have older work forces and pretty significant numbers "aging out" over the next few years. The junior people furloughed in the fall should be back on the line relatively soon....1 or 2 years give or take.

Airlines like B6, NK, F9, etc can't afford to loose a significant number of pilots to career changes, corporate gigs, overseas flying or new start ups. The regional census of candidates is limited and green CFIs of today are at least a decade away from qualifying.
This may head off a talent pool shortage when things ramp up in 1,2 4 years .
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:57 am

FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:30 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


It's not the pilots' union, it's the skill set. Look at gate agent training vs. pilot training and experience requirements. Nobody wakes up today, decides he wants to become a pilot, and has the job with a major U.S. carrier ten days later.

Expendable is an unkind word but you can look at how quickly AA/DL/UA can replace mainline ops with regional ops, including gate agents, and not miss a beat.

It will be interesting to see the details of this. UA has guaranteed, what, 56 hours pay a month?
 
Varsity1
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.


The shortage was exacerbated by airlines going nuclear against each other on pilot pay. Frontier and Spirit are great examples, increasing pay 40% overnight creating huge inflows of pilots hired (and outflows elsewhere).

Smaller cargo carriers became lucrative with really nice contracts at Kalitta, ATI and Omni. In other words pilots now view these historical 'pit stop' jobs as a career worthy and will make lateral moves to make it happen.

In 2016 you had pilots leaving spirit to go to Alaska, in 2018 you had pilot leaving Alaska to go to Spirit. It was a weird couple of years.
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catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.


Lost in all this is the churn in training that a furlough (or a retirement) causes. At a carrier like DL with varied fleet types, one seat move causes around 8 other seat moves. Factor in training (at around a $2500/day cot) and it starts to add up.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:13 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.

PPP? The Paycheck Protection Program that only applies to small businesses (aka not JetBlue)?

My guess is if JetBlue agrees to this it is because they feel they will get enough voluntary pilot cuts, obviously with some incentives and carrots thrown in to get pilots to take them.
 
airtran737
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:38 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


As someone who started out as a ramper and gate agent, then became a pilot, I am glad the pilots got this security from the company. Just remember, I can do an agent's job with two weeks of training. It takes years of training, instructing, and building time in order to do mine. It costs a lot of money to complete a training evolution on a pilot, and it is smart to keep as many on property as possible.
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FlyHossD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:34 pm

airbazar wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.


Please read the post immediately PRIOR to yours. I'll paste it below for your reference:

catiii wrote:
Lost in all this is the churn in training that a furlough (or a retirement) causes. At a carrier like DL with varied fleet types, one seat move causes around 8 other seat moves. Factor in training (at around a $2500/day cot) and it starts to add up.


Depending on the airline and situation, it can cost more to furlough (and "down-train") and rehire (and then "up-train") than to retain the pilots in the first place. It's generally accepted that a furlough needs to be nearly 2 or more years long to recoup the costs of the furlough. Further, don't confuse the PPP with the CARES Act.

Having said that, I expect that B6 ALPA agreed to some concessions, but we haven't heard those details yet.
Last edited by FlyHossD on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:41 pm

This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:11 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.

Hahahahahaha! I was a gate agent under a CBA for Southwest and still got treated like crap and my own local union lady (not rep, person actually on union payroll) told me that the work group waived a right guaranteed by law to be able to trade days with other CSAs. My mother did the same job under the same union for a different airline and still had a much better contract than me.

Gary Kelly early in the pandemic asked the TWU (ops, ramp, provisioning, cargo, FAs, aircraft and sim mechanics) to take pay cuts. But did he ask SWAPA and the pilots? He did not. Because pilots as a profession are largely boosted by ALPA, one of the most successful lobby groups in the US, and that's who represents B6s pilots. If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline. God forbid you even sneeze in the direction of a pilot union rep. And then they complained when I asked if they were ok taking the jumpseat during an oversell (admittedly nowhere near as bad as the FAs). I would semi-jokingly ask pilots if they wanted to trade jobs, and if they copped an attitude I would remind them that they're locked behind a bulletproof door.

This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point and I would be livid if I were a B6 employee. Yeah labor economics dictate that skilled labor such as pilots get paid more (inflated moreso thanks to ALPA), but go toss bags for 8 hours on the ramp or the counter, then work the gate on mandatory OT on your day off during a microburst and explain to 350 people why it's unsafe to fly and they're not getting compensated. And also have the old couple sit there and tell you it's your fault that the plane is late and that I truly want them stuck in an airport because I am a terrible person and want to see people suffer, not the nasty rainstorm that made their flight divert to COS and then the same storm kept the inbound in COS longer since it moved down there.
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CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:21 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point.


Actually the word on the street now is they are most likely going to avoid furloughs for other groups too. We'll i'll correct that, most likely avoid furloughs for FAs too.

I'm getting the sense that B6 wants to roll the dice and go hard on expansive recovery and try to capture market share and gates/slots while the getting is good.
 
737MAX7
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:27 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:
Last edited by 737MAX7 on Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:07 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point and I would be livid if I were a B6 employee. Yeah labor economics dictate that skilled labor such as pilots get paid more (inflated moreso thanks to ALPA), but go toss bags for 8 hours on the ramp or the counter, then work the gate on mandatory OT on your day off during a microburst and explain to 350 people why it's unsafe to fly and they're not getting compensated. And also have the old couple sit there and tell you it's your fault that the plane is late and that I truly want them stuck in an airport because I am a terrible person and want to see people suffer, not the nasty rainstorm that made their flight divert to COS and then the same storm kept the inbound in COS longer since it moved down there.


Swap out microburst with blizzard and boy do I understand that struggle. "No sir, our system does not have a divine outreach link to create storms"

Problem with This logic is that most, if not all pilots could theoretically do this. They wouldn't like it, they'd be sore and complaining the whole time (which most do as pilots, anyway) but they could do it. Now go find a ramper to fly this redeye transcon.
 
Alias1024
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:11 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Gary Kelly early in the pandemic asked the TWU (ops, ramp, provisioning, cargo, FAs, aircraft and sim mechanics) to take pay cuts. But did he ask SWAPA and the pilots? He did not.

Pilots all over the industry have already taken pay cuts by having monthly flying reduced to contractual minimums, including at Southwest.

TWA772LR wrote:
If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.

Perhaps they should wait for the details before getting furious. Also, to my knowledge JetBlue has not indicated an intent to furlough anyone.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
usairways787
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:35 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:


Fellow ramp rat of 10 years saying hello. I too share the same sentiments, at the end of the day, we're all in this mess as one. Nobody is safe.

US787
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:32 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:34 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:44 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...



So, they’re not getting furloughed, but are they guaranteed hours? Or will they be employed but not working enough to pay their bills forcing them out the door As they won’t be eligible for unemployment either? Since they aren’t unionized, I’m guessing they don’t have minimum guarantees or anything?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:44 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5215
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:52 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.

that article was from May and related to CARES act.

Seeing how many AA employees have been put on the street recently, I think no involuntary furlough is a pretty good outcome even if they end up working fewer hours. It's not good for company morale when too many people get furloughed.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:

Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.

that article was from May and related to CARES act.

Seeing how many AA employees have been put on the street recently, I think no involuntary furlough is a pretty good outcome even if they end up working fewer hours. It's not good for company morale when too many people get furloughed.

It was May, and related to management cutting work unilaterally, which didn’t happen to the JB pilots owing to a CBA stipulating MMG.

I don’t disagree, negotiated and agreed upon hour reductions to save jobs are fine. My point is consistently, it’s better to be at the negotiating table working on a deal with representation than being reliant on whatever management whims there are. Folks take this stuff way too personally like its team sports... It’s a business, management wants to make money, and workers want a paycheck. Don’t rely on a handout, speak up and be part of the process.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:



I respect a hard days work and honest work, no matter what the pay is. Its a shame some people think they are better than others based on how much their employer may pay them. Its happiness that counts, not $$, so keep holding your head high.
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:11 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:45 am

catiii wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5958
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:39 am

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:

Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited


So others understand, the values committees are there to "represent" the work group with the company. They have no legal power and, this is important, they are voted on by the work group from candidates (at least in the past) that were pre screened by the company. I.E. you could not get on the ballot unless the company approved you. Also in the past the votes received by all the losing people in the "election" were kept hidden and secret. Its maybe still this way, I'm just saying what exactly happened in the past. Luckily two of the workgroups have moved beyond values committees and into legal representation empowered by the railroad labor act. Are the airports/GO values committees still chosen and voted in in the way I described above?

I'll leave it to peoples imagination what real power of negotiating these pre screened and secretly voted in people have.
 
canyonblue17
Posts: 695
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Um...May 2021 is in less than a year correct? Yeah it's a few months more than what "might" happen to other airlines - but it's not like they can rest easy.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:16 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
catiii wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?


Except every crew member at every outsourced station is being offered the chance to move to an insourced station, so they’re not being furloughed. Good effort though.
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:20 am

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited


And yet they WERE at the table with the Values Committee, and no frontline are being furloughed. Go figure.

Only on this board would someone complain that a workgroup was being furloughed because they’re non union and didn’t “have a seat at the table, and then complain that they were at the table every step of the way resulting in no furloughs. Oh well.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5958
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:37 pm

catiii wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
catiii wrote:

Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?


Except every crew member at every outsourced station is being offered the chance to move to an insourced station, so they’re not being furloughed. Good effort though.



That cant possibly be true.

I believe they are offering them to move to a station if there is space.

Add an in a catch 22 in a downsizing company, There is little, if any space

Please don’t make it sound like Jetblue is not going to have significantly less employees after this purge.
 
11C
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:48 pm

This thread barely made it out of the station before de-railing. Nicely done!

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