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Polot
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.

PPP? The Paycheck Protection Program that only applies to small businesses (aka not JetBlue)?

My guess is if JetBlue agrees to this it is because they feel they will get enough voluntary pilot cuts, obviously with some incentives and carrots thrown in to get pilots to take them.
 
airtran737
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:38 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


As someone who started out as a ramper and gate agent, then became a pilot, I am glad the pilots got this security from the company. Just remember, I can do an agent's job with two weeks of training. It takes years of training, instructing, and building time in order to do mine. It costs a lot of money to complete a training evolution on a pilot, and it is smart to keep as many on property as possible.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
FlyHossD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:34 pm

airbazar wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.


Please read the post immediately PRIOR to yours. I'll paste it below for your reference:

catiii wrote:
Lost in all this is the churn in training that a furlough (or a retirement) causes. At a carrier like DL with varied fleet types, one seat move causes around 8 other seat moves. Factor in training (at around a $2500/day cot) and it starts to add up.


Depending on the airline and situation, it can cost more to furlough (and "down-train") and rehire (and then "up-train") than to retain the pilots in the first place. It's generally accepted that a furlough needs to be nearly 2 or more years long to recoup the costs of the furlough. Further, don't confuse the PPP with the CARES Act.

Having said that, I expect that B6 ALPA agreed to some concessions, but we haven't heard those details yet.
Last edited by FlyHossD on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:41 pm

This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:11 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.

Hahahahahaha! I was a gate agent under a CBA for Southwest and still got treated like crap and my own local union lady (not rep, person actually on union payroll) told me that the work group waived a right guaranteed by law to be able to trade days with other CSAs. My mother did the same job under the same union for a different airline and still had a much better contract than me.

Gary Kelly early in the pandemic asked the TWU (ops, ramp, provisioning, cargo, FAs, aircraft and sim mechanics) to take pay cuts. But did he ask SWAPA and the pilots? He did not. Because pilots as a profession are largely boosted by ALPA, one of the most successful lobby groups in the US, and that's who represents B6s pilots. If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline. God forbid you even sneeze in the direction of a pilot union rep. And then they complained when I asked if they were ok taking the jumpseat during an oversell (admittedly nowhere near as bad as the FAs). I would semi-jokingly ask pilots if they wanted to trade jobs, and if they copped an attitude I would remind them that they're locked behind a bulletproof door.

This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point and I would be livid if I were a B6 employee. Yeah labor economics dictate that skilled labor such as pilots get paid more (inflated moreso thanks to ALPA), but go toss bags for 8 hours on the ramp or the counter, then work the gate on mandatory OT on your day off during a microburst and explain to 350 people why it's unsafe to fly and they're not getting compensated. And also have the old couple sit there and tell you it's your fault that the plane is late and that I truly want them stuck in an airport because I am a terrible person and want to see people suffer, not the nasty rainstorm that made their flight divert to COS and then the same storm kept the inbound in COS longer since it moved down there.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:21 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point.


Actually the word on the street now is they are most likely going to avoid furloughs for other groups too. We'll i'll correct that, most likely avoid furloughs for FAs too.

I'm getting the sense that B6 wants to roll the dice and go hard on expansive recovery and try to capture market share and gates/slots while the getting is good.
 
737MAX7
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:27 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:
Last edited by 737MAX7 on Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:07 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This is a big shock to me as I thought B6 had the culture of wanting to keep everyone around. This is just playing favorites at this point and I would be livid if I were a B6 employee. Yeah labor economics dictate that skilled labor such as pilots get paid more (inflated moreso thanks to ALPA), but go toss bags for 8 hours on the ramp or the counter, then work the gate on mandatory OT on your day off during a microburst and explain to 350 people why it's unsafe to fly and they're not getting compensated. And also have the old couple sit there and tell you it's your fault that the plane is late and that I truly want them stuck in an airport because I am a terrible person and want to see people suffer, not the nasty rainstorm that made their flight divert to COS and then the same storm kept the inbound in COS longer since it moved down there.


Swap out microburst with blizzard and boy do I understand that struggle. "No sir, our system does not have a divine outreach link to create storms"

Problem with This logic is that most, if not all pilots could theoretically do this. They wouldn't like it, they'd be sore and complaining the whole time (which most do as pilots, anyway) but they could do it. Now go find a ramper to fly this redeye transcon.
 
Alias1024
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:11 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Gary Kelly early in the pandemic asked the TWU (ops, ramp, provisioning, cargo, FAs, aircraft and sim mechanics) to take pay cuts. But did he ask SWAPA and the pilots? He did not.

Pilots all over the industry have already taken pay cuts by having monthly flying reduced to contractual minimums, including at Southwest.

TWA772LR wrote:
If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.

Perhaps they should wait for the details before getting furious. Also, to my knowledge JetBlue has not indicated an intent to furlough anyone.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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PW100
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:20 pm

Gemuser wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
boerje wrote:
From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:

The world of learning how to count starts at 0. Current decade is 2020-2029 inclusive.
Fred

Sorry Fred, the current decade is 2011 to 2020. The world, unfortunately does not start counting at zero but at 1. The current year numbering scheme start at 1 for the very good and simple reason was that the concept of zero was not invented until sometime in the 7th century which ran from 801 to 900 exactly because of this.
[/pedant mode]

Gemuser


Correct, there is no year zero (just as there is no month zero , and no day zero).
Western (Gregorian) calender starts with 1st of Jan year 1.

Now, since we are in pedant mode . . . small correction on your 7th century:
year 1 - year 100 (inclusive) = 1st century
year 101 - year 200 (inclusive) = 2nd century
. . . . . .
year 601 - year 700 (inclusive) = 7th century
year 701 - year 800 (inclusive) = 8th century
year 801 - year 900 (inclusive) = 9th century
. . . . . .
year 1901 - year 2000 (inclusive) = 20th century
year 2001 - year 2100 (inclusive) = 21st century

Each year runs from 01 Jan to 31 Dec.
So the current century (21st) runs from 01 Jan 2001 to 31st Dec 2100.

Same logic also applies to millennium, but the masses found 01 Jan 2000 better recognizable than 01 Jan 2001 for millennium change.
Plus, the millenium bug didn't care too much for Gregorian calendar . . .

//off-topic
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
usairways787
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:35 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:


Fellow ramp rat of 10 years saying hello. I too share the same sentiments, at the end of the day, we're all in this mess as one. Nobody is safe.

US787
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3640
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:40 pm

Gemuser wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
boerje wrote:
From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:

The world of learning how to count starts at 0. Current decade is 2020-2029 inclusive.
Fred

Sorry Fred, the current decade is 2011 to 2020. The world, unfortunately does not start counting at zero but at 1. The current year numbering scheme start at 1 for the very good and simple reason was that the concept of zero was not invented until sometime in the 7th century which ran from 801 to 900 exactly because of this.
[/pedant mode]

Gemuser


The world might count from 1, that has little relevance on the fact that it actually starts at 0. Because some people were incorrect at the beginning holds little relevance to now, the mariana trench being the deepest place in the oceans even before it was discovered.

Fred
Image
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:32 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:34 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:44 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...



So, they’re not getting furloughed, but are they guaranteed hours? Or will they be employed but not working enough to pay their bills forcing them out the door As they won’t be eligible for unemployment either? Since they aren’t unionized, I’m guessing they don’t have minimum guarantees or anything?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 255
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:44 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:52 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.

that article was from May and related to CARES act.

Seeing how many AA employees have been put on the street recently, I think no involuntary furlough is a pretty good outcome even if they end up working fewer hours. It's not good for company morale when too many people get furloughed.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 255
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:

Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.

that article was from May and related to CARES act.

Seeing how many AA employees have been put on the street recently, I think no involuntary furlough is a pretty good outcome even if they end up working fewer hours. It's not good for company morale when too many people get furloughed.

It was May, and related to management cutting work unilaterally, which didn’t happen to the JB pilots owing to a CBA stipulating MMG.

I don’t disagree, negotiated and agreed upon hour reductions to save jobs are fine. My point is consistently, it’s better to be at the negotiating table working on a deal with representation than being reliant on whatever management whims there are. Folks take this stuff way too personally like its team sports... It’s a business, management wants to make money, and workers want a paycheck. Don’t rely on a handout, speak up and be part of the process.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
This is why the US is in the dumps. “Well *I* did this and this and I’m better. Those people just stare at kiosks.” Well “those people” do set the tone for a passenger’s experience. And yes you can’t fly without pilots. Both have value. Regardless of who’s getting laid off sending people into unemployment isn’t good for anyone. Americans love to treat low wage workers like they’re expendable trash. Then complain when someone who makes less than a living wage doesn’t lick their boots when they check in. Good riddance to so many of you.

Been a ramp rat for 8 years. It took me a few years but I finally realized no one gives a single you know what about us. I still go in and bust my butt to turn planes on time, get customers their bags as fast as possible and do whatever I can to help the operation but I do it for the customer and myself, no one else because no one else cares :wink2:



I respect a hard days work and honest work, no matter what the pay is. Its a shame some people think they are better than others based on how much their employer may pay them. Its happiness that counts, not $$, so keep holding your head high.
 
catiii
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:11 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:45 am

catiii wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5986
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:39 am

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:

Out clearly now to the airline: no involuntary furloughs for all frontline non-union workgroups, and a caveat that inflight may still face furloughs. So the pilots (with a CBA) seemingly had to give up something that is yet to be announced to get non furlough, and inflight (negotiating a CBA) is still open for furough.,

Guess that having a union isn't all it's cracked up to be and family and culture still matter...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited


So others understand, the values committees are there to "represent" the work group with the company. They have no legal power and, this is important, they are voted on by the work group from candidates (at least in the past) that were pre screened by the company. I.E. you could not get on the ballot unless the company approved you. Also in the past the votes received by all the losing people in the "election" were kept hidden and secret. Its maybe still this way, I'm just saying what exactly happened in the past. Luckily two of the workgroups have moved beyond values committees and into legal representation empowered by the railroad labor act. Are the airports/GO values committees still chosen and voted in in the way I described above?

I'll leave it to peoples imagination what real power of negotiating these pre screened and secretly voted in people have.
 
canyonblue17
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Um...May 2021 is in less than a year correct? Yeah it's a few months more than what "might" happen to other airlines - but it's not like they can rest easy.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
catiii
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:16 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
catiii wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
[ If I were a non-pilot worker at B6 I would be furious because all this does is supports the gap between pilots and the rest of the employees at an airline.


Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?


Except every crew member at every outsourced station is being offered the chance to move to an insourced station, so they’re not being furloughed. Good effort though.
 
catiii
Posts: 3607
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:20 am

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-bailout

Looks to me folks took cuts long before...

Meanwhile pilots had a CBA min guarantee that remained intact unless negotiated otherwise, which I expect is part of this deal. Always better to have a seat at the table than sitting outside the room. I don’t want to see anybody lose pay or hours, hence my support for organized labor and collective bargaining. I’d be gutted to see anybody lose their job whether a gate agent, pilot, ramper, FA.


What makes you think they didn’t have a seat at the table, which they did through their Values Committee reps?


Values committee reps. That is funny!

What legal authority does the Values committee have in representing their respective group? None.

They are empowered solely by the company that they are in negotiations with. They are at the table only if invited


And yet they WERE at the table with the Values Committee, and no frontline are being furloughed. Go figure.

Only on this board would someone complain that a workgroup was being furloughed because they’re non union and didn’t “have a seat at the table, and then complain that they were at the table every step of the way resulting in no furloughs. Oh well.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5986
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:37 pm

catiii wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
catiii wrote:

Why would you be furious? The non-union frontline aren't getting furloughed either.


Nope, just 20+ stations are being outsourced. They’re going to pay all of those people to not work or they’re laying people off?


Except every crew member at every outsourced station is being offered the chance to move to an insourced station, so they’re not being furloughed. Good effort though.



That cant possibly be true.

I believe they are offering them to move to a station if there is space.

Add an in a catch 22 in a downsizing company, There is little, if any space

Please don’t make it sound like Jetblue is not going to have significantly less employees after this purge.
 
11C
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:48 pm

This thread barely made it out of the station before de-railing. Nicely done!
 
Justjoshua
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:59 am

Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:56 am

How many Southwest FA’s will be furloughed? It’s bound to happen once traffic falls after Labor Day
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2039
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:39 am

WN is currently offering various extended time off packages (6,12,18 mo) along with a voluntary separation (retirement) packages. Once they have that figured out they will go from there.. Hopefully (fingers and toes crossed) things work out ok.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8230
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:55 am

How many, and how quickly, is probably a function of Southwest's intent (meaning: willingness to carry extra staff to avoid furloughs) and revenue projections. If, in 1Q21, they're carrying no more than 70% of the passengers and 60% of the revenue of 1Q19 (because avg fares are way down, too), I can't see how they avoid furloughs. (It's implicit that they won't get enough to take voluntary leave/long enough leaves, nor early retirements, to put staffing and demand in balance.)
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:36 pm

With the deadline for taking the ExTO and VSP on July 15. I wouldn't expect an announcement until sometime in August until WN runs it's revamped next 2021 January-April flight schedule numbers.
I think if the US was on a downward trend with Covid 19 more people would not partake in either program with the anticipation of normal life returning.
But since the cases are spiking and the uncertainties of how safe it's going to be for kids returning to school. This might get a few more people to opt into taking one of the packages available at the last minute.
I'd be surprised if they furlough at all.
But as the always say in this industry NEVER say NEVER!
Fingers crossed from my Old WN friends.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
WNagent310
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:17 pm

Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:39 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.

I have a lot of respect for the employees if most agree to take a cut in pay to save the jobs of others. I wish you the best of luck.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:51 pm

tomaheath wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.

I have a lot of respect for the employees if most agree to take a cut in pay to save the jobs of others. I wish you the best of luck.

We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.
 
kiowa
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:21 pm

A bit more info. Flying a heavier schedule has a price to pay.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... furloughs/
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:09 pm

WN is my airline of choice. I fear come October1, there's going to to be a lot of bloodletting for every airline.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4787
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:15 am

WN might be much less effected than UA,AA, and DL but I can't see them not needing to furlough or layoff. Would be a real testimate to their packages being very generous if they get enough people voluntarily. AA and UA with so many international routes I see Oct 1 being a historically sad day. Let's all hope for less but the virus and travel are not showing good signs here. WN let's really hope their mostly domestic schedule shields them from the worst of it! Best of luck everyone
 
klkla
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:22 am

737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.
 
Mac289
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:33 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:47 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.


But it's 100 percent true and furthermore a very apt analogy... and you are generally saying the same thing.

From what I've been hearing through the grapevine at my station through different sources, I don't expect any concessions from unions. If it's covered under the CBA, I see hell freezing over a second time before any of that is given concessionary treatment. If we do see benefits cut, it will probably be non union cuts. Supervisors, managers, mid level managers, the guy in the hat who has that one office in that one cubicle who nobody is really certain why he stares at cameras all day issuing letters for minor infractions that hurt literally no one-- all in an effort to seem needed...those are the people who should be more worried. I expect the unions to stand fast and not give on anything, especially ramp/ops/provo under the triple nickel.

Regardless once Octobers roll around I fear that many of us, be we WN, UA, AA, or DL, will be seeing an exceptionally fluid and fast moving situation in regards to cutbacks. Some of us may be out of a job by then, and that's just fact. All we can do is wait and hope... Expect the best and prepare for the worst.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:05 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4700
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:41 am

Considering how hard the latest round of negotiations were for some unions during the good times it’s hard to imagine times will ever be good enough in the future to get back anything given up.

Check out what some of the folks who’ve been through this before have to say in the legacy threads. Concessions won’t guarantee no furloughs.

Hoping for the best.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4787
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:19 am

Southwest Airlines CEO: Passenger traffic needs to triple by end of year to avoid layoffs and furloughs

0% chance of happening. I guess that is his way of saying layoffs are coming? That's just impossible and way too soon
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:46 am

737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.
 
AAPramugari14
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:35 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:16 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.


It’s not an incorrect comment. It’s reality. A certain major airline has a significant portion of the FA workforce that are well beyond retirement age. A good portion have passed the age of 65 with a significant amount in their 70s and 80s. This population refuses to leave even though they have the ability to do so. While some can physically do the job many cannot and struggle yet they still stay. The issue? They’ve all been vocal they would never take pay cuts or allow reduced hours to help curb furloughs.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5345
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:04 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest Airlines CEO: Passenger traffic needs to triple by end of year to avoid layoffs and furloughs

0% chance of happening. I guess that is his way of saying layoffs are coming? That's just impossible and way too soon


Yep might as well say furloughs are inevitable, triple would basically be 2019 levels
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
reltney
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:11 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:

Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4300
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 pm

Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
reltney
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:06 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.



Very well put. Sadly unions are still needed and in days like this, it’s helped the worker. Sometimes it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Oh well.

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
kiowa
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:52 pm

reltney wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.

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