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Cointrin330
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AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:31 pm

Looking to get a comprehensive picture of when the current US3 launched their TATL operations and with what equipment, back in the 1980s (1990 I think for UA). I know Departed Flights is a resource, but there are gaps across the years in terms of schedules and clicking through can be cumbersome.

As I recall:

AMERICAN
-American started TATL service with a daily DC10-30 service from DFW to LGW in the early 1980s. Not sure the exact date.
-The bigger push came in 1987, with JFK, ORD, and further DFW routes added.
-JFK launch included ORY, LYS, FRA, and then ZRH. The ORY, LYS, and ZRH services were on 767-200ERs. FRA was launched with a DC10-30.
-LHR launched July 1991.

UNITED
-As I recall, United simultaneously launched CDG and FRA from both ORD and IAD. I don't know what aircraft was used but I am thinking it was a mix of 767-200s and 747-100/200s as UA's DC10 fleet did not cross the Atlantic and the 767-300ER did not arrive until 1993 (or 1991)?
-LHR launched 1991.

DELTA
-I seem to recall Delta had service from DFW as well, to LGW and from ATL to LGW and FRA as far back as the early 1980s, but the order of service starts, I do not know.
-Believe Delta's initial foray into Europe was flown with L1011s.
-Expanded substantially from ATL, then DFW, and CVG until the Pan Am TATL acquisition in 1991 which added JFK as a gateway.
-LHR service began in 2008, though I seem to recall reading DL flew a 747 in the early 1970s to LHR?

Please help fill in the blanks!
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:50 pm

There's going to be people here that know way more than me, but 2 things I can confirm.
AA did start LGW service from DFW sometime in 1982. They took over the route authority from Braniff, which went bankrupt in May, 1982. I think they used a D10-30. In 1987 they launched DFW to FRA and ORY using 767 aircraft. It was a big deal to use 2 engine aircraft across the Atlantic, ETOPS had just been approved.
DL launched ATL-LGW in 1978. It was the first service to London from the South other than National Airline's route from MIA. DL later started service to FRA using the L-1011 around 1981 mainly due to the success of the LGW route.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:50 pm

AA started DFW-LGW on a 747-100 in 1982, when it took over the route authority from the demise of Braniff. The equipment changed to a DC-10-30 in 1984 when the 747 classics were traded for DC-10-30s from Pan Am, who in turn inherited them from the National merger. DFW-FRA and DFW-ORY were added in 1985, both on DC-10-30s.

The next expansion came in 1986, with ORD-ORY, ORD-FRA, ORD-MAN, ORD-DUS-MUC and ORD-ZRH-GVA added on new delivery 767-200ERs. 1987 saw JFK-ORY and JFK-FRA added on DC-10-30s, which were replaced with the 767-300 on ORY and the 767-200 on FRA the following year. 1988 saw AA add DFW-MAD.

1989 brought RDU-ORY(763), ORD-ARN(762), JFK-LYS(762), JFK-BRU-HAM (763), and ORD-BRU-DUS(763) into the network. When STR was added as a tag from JFK-ZRH, the JFK-ORY flight added a tag to GVA. The ORD-ZRH flight added a tag to MUC.

A lot of routes were cut in early 1990, because the aircraft were needed to start up the new Deep South American routes out of MIA that were purchased from Eastern. JFK lost nonstops to LYS and FRA, and the tags to GVA, HAM and STR were discontinued. ORD-DUS got back to the original tag to MUC, eventually they were operated as separate flights in the mid 90s.

Late 1990 brought ORD-LGW, and then 1991 was a big year when the LHR routes were purchased from TWA. LHR was served from JFK using a mix of 747SP, 762, 763 and DC-10-30s. MIA, LAX and EWR to LHR were flown on the 763, and BOS was initially served by domestic configured DC-10-10s until more 763s were delivered. JFK-MAN and JFK-LGW were also added on the 762. JFK-LGW didn’t last long, less than a year.

That’s about all I remember from 31 years of flying these routes. More might come to mind.
Last edited by NYCAAer on Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:58 pm

Going back to the US5, the first TATL service on US was CLT-LGW which was inherited from Piedmont. This was followed by PIT-FRA in 1990, which was closely followed by PHL-MAN/CDG in 1991, and CLT-FRA in 1992.
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NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 pm

After I wrote my post, I remembered a few more things. DFW-MAD was flown with the 762, and the DFW-ORY and DFW-FRA flights switched to the 763 as more were delivered. The 763 was then used on ORD-ORY, making ORY an all-763 station. Eventually DFW-MAD became the 763, and there were a few unsuccessful attempts at serving other markets in the 1990s. ORD-GLA was flown briefly in the early 90s, and then DFW-BRU was flown for a while on the 763, it didn’t last long.

Spring of 1991 brought ORD-MXP online on the 762. That route also became a 763 later on.

The MD-11 deliveries saw it flown on several routes in the 1990s. JFK-ORY, DFW-ORY, DFW-LGW, ORD-LHR, ORD-MAN, JFK-LHR and MIA-LHR come to mind. JFK-ORY only lasted the summer of 1992, and switched to the DC-10-30, along with DFW-ORY for about 10 months and then both routes became the 763 once again. ORD-MAN was another that didn’t last long, as the MD-11s were moved to fly new routes to NRT from SJC and SEA.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:03 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Going back to the US5, the first TATL service on US was CLT-LGW which was inherited from Piedmont. This was followed by PIT-FRA in 1990, which was closely followed by PHL-MAN/CDG in 1991, and CLT-FRA in 1992.


PHL started service initially to ORY. We were flying to ORY at AA and we all said, “Oh my God, can you imagine Allegheny made it to Paris?” as a joke. Little did we realize that we’d end up merging with them.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:08 pm

DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:08 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Going back to the US5, the first TATL service on US was CLT-LGW which was inherited from Piedmont. This was followed by PIT-FRA in 1990, which was closely followed by PHL-MAN/CDG in 1991, and CLT-FRA in 1992.


PHL started service initially to ORY. We were flying to ORY at AA and we all said, “Oh my God, can you imagine Allegheny made it to Paris?” as a joke. Little did we realize that we’d end up merging with them.

That's right! I don't believe US switched to CDG until the late 1990s.
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NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:19 pm

USAirALB wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Going back to the US5, the first TATL service on US was CLT-LGW which was inherited from Piedmont. This was followed by PIT-FRA in 1990, which was closely followed by PHL-MAN/CDG in 1991, and CLT-FRA in 1992.


PHL started service initially to ORY. We were flying to ORY at AA and we all said, “Oh my God, can you imagine Allegheny made it to Paris?” as a joke. Little did we realize that we’d end up merging with them.

That's right! I don't believe US switched to CDG until the late 1990s.


It was part of the French government’s plan to move all long-haul flights to CDG. AA was the last holdout, moving in October of 1999. I remember the switch, and how much more modern CDG seemed at the time.
 
Beedo46
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:40 pm

As a dependant of "Daddy D", I remember the start up of London and Frankfurt from the T gates in ATL. The L1011's were 500s and the American Flag was prominent at the top of the tail (regulation at the time?). I was 11 in 1980.
 
Kilopond
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:15 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
[...]-American started TATL service with a daily DC10-30 service from DFW to LGW in the early 1980s.[...]

Actually, their subsidiary American Overseas Airlines operated transatlantic flights between 1945 and 1950, when they had been merged into PanAm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... s_Airlines

Timetableimages is a great archieve, here is a pic from their site dating November 1949 with the corresponding link.

Image

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/ao1.htm
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:27 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:32 pm

Yes, if you go back far enough, AA was the first to return to Europe after World War II, in October 1945, with a DC-4. The first route was from La Guardia to London via Gander and Shannon, I believe. My parents were friends with an older couple who met during WWII. He was an American G.I. stationed in the north of England, and she was an English woman from Blackpool. When she left England to marry him in the United States, she told me that flew AOA to cross the Atlantic, and it was something like 14 hours.

AA served London, Shannon, Prestwick, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen, and I think they also went to Leningrad, Helsinki and Moscow.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 pm

Delta inaugurated TATL service in 1978, with ATL-LGW service using the Lockheed L-1011-500 TriStar:

https://news.delta.com/delta-celebrates ... ic-service

April 30, 1978, was another era in air travel. Crude oil was $13 per barrel, compared to more than $115 today. Delta reservations were made by phone through agents in Atlanta or London because the Internet, personal computer and online shopping did not exist. Flight No. 10 was operated with a Lockheed L-1011 aircraft with 24 first class and 238 economy seats. Delta projected its first in-flight movie, a 16mm version of Oh God, starring George Burns and John Denver. Economy roundtrip airfares were $844 round-trip, which in inflation-adjusted dollars now would be about $2,764.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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reltney
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:42 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking to get a comprehensive picture of when the current US3 launched their TATL operations and with what equipment, back in the 1980s (1990 I think for UA). I know Departed Flights is a resource, but there are gaps across the years in terms of schedules and clicking through can be cumbersome.

As I recall:

AMERICAN
-American started TATL service with a daily DC10-30 service from DFW to LGW in the early 1980s. Not sure the exact date.
-The bigger push came in 1987, with JFK, ORD, and further DFW routes added.
-JFK launch included ORY, LYS, FRA, and then ZRH. The ORY, LYS, and ZRH services were on 767-200ERs. FRA was launched with a DC10-30.
-LHR launched July 1991.

UNITED
-As I recall, United simultaneously launched CDG and FRA from both ORD and IAD. I don't know what aircraft was used but I am thinking it was a mix of 767-200s and 747-100/200s as UA's DC10 fleet did not cross the Atlantic and the 767-300ER did not arrive until 1993 (or 1991)?
-LHR launched 1991.

DELTA
-I seem to recall Delta had service from DFW as well, to LGW and from ATL to LGW and FRA as far back as the early 1980s, but the order of service starts, I do not know.
-Believe Delta's initial foray into Europe was flown with L1011s.
-Expanded substantially from ATL, then DFW, and CVG until the Pan Am TATL acquisition in 1991 which added JFK as a gateway.
-LHR service began in 2008, though I seem to recall reading DL flew a 747 in the early 1970s to LHR?

Please help fill in the blanks!



Smack on with Delta 747s

In 1971-76 You could see Delta 747s at Heathrow. Many pics out there. It was thru the Delta PanAm interchange. ATL IAD LHR. The ATL-IAD leg was with Delta Pilots and Delta Flight attendants. iAD-LHR was PanAm pilots and a mix of Delta PanAm flight attendants. The metal varied between PanAm and Delta 747s. I flew on both IAD to LHR in 72-73. In 78 Delta was awarded ATL -Gatwick and they used 2 leased TWA L-1011- with the bigger fuel tanks.

There you have it. Delta 747s were in LHR starting 25apr71 and we’re also seen in Frankfurt. Check out the delta museum for the complete history.
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N649DL
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:59 pm

That's a lot to sum up over the past 35-40 years but from what I recall:

AA: IIRC, they were flying TATL out of JFK when Pan Am was still doing so (as mentioned to ORY.) They also were very focused on an Int'l profile at ORD in the early 1990s (remember the flags hung throughout the terminal in Home Alone 1 and 2.) ORD-ARN being an early "out of the box" route on the 762 and 763. They also flew TATL out of the RDU and BNA's hubs for a minute. AA was on the map out of LHR when they gobbled up the TWA operation in 1990.

UA: They focused TATL out of IAD in the early 1990s on 762s but once they got Pan Am's LHR network that opened up their network to places like EWR/SEA/JFK/LAX/SFO etc that weren't served previously.

DL: Before they got Pan Am's JFK routes, a lot of TATL was focused out of CVG, I think. Delta was very weak on TATL routes until they got JFK And FRA hubs from Pan Am and were mostly served on L-1011.

NW actually had a decent network for TATL to Scandinavia and Northern Europe from BOS and JFK for a while in the late 1980s as well on 747.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:03 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
In 1987 they launched DFW to FRA and ORY using 767 aircraft. It was a big deal to use 2 engine aircraft across the Atlantic, ETOPS had just been approved.


TWA started TATL ETOPS on a 767 back in 1985. TWA first made a BOS-CDG ETOPS flight on February 1, 1985, and it first made a STL-FRA ETOPS flight in May 1985.
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DLHAM
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:09 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


Northwest already flew the Atlantic in the early 80s or even late 70s, then still called Northwest Orient.

Their Summer 1980 transatlantic routes:

MSP-DTW-JFK-CPH-ARN
MSP-DTW-JFK-OSL-ARN
JFK-SNN-GLA
MSP-BOS-SNN-GLA
MSP-BOS-GLA-CPH
MSP-BOS-GLA
LAX-MSP-LGW-HAM

All on 747s, some of the domestic segments flown on same flightnumber with DC-10 and then Equipment Change.
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NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:16 pm

N649DL wrote:
That's a lot to sum up over the past 35-40 years but from what I recall:

AA: IIRC, they were flying TATL out of JFK when Pan Am was still doing so (as mentioned to ORY.) They also were very focused on an Int'l profile at ORD in the early 1990s (remember the flags hung throughout the terminal in Home Alone 1 and 2.) ORD-ARN being an early "out of the box" route on the 762 and 763. They also flew TATL out of the RDU and BNA's hubs for a minute. AA was on the map out of LHR when they gobbled up the TWA operation in 1990.

UA: They focused TATL out of IAD in the early 1990s on 762s but once they got Pan Am's LHR network that opened up their network to places like EWR/SEA/JFK/LAX/SFO etc that weren't served previously.

DL: Before they got Pan Am's JFK routes, a lot of TATL was focused out of CVG, I think. Delta was very weak on TATL routes until they got JFK And FRA hubs from Pan Am and were mostly served on L-1011.

NW actually had a decent network for TATL to Scandinavia and Northern Europe from BOS and JFK for a while in the late 1980s as well on 747.


That is correct about AA flying to Europe out of JFK when PA still existed. AA started JFK to Europe in 1987, PA folded in 1991. As a new hire AA flight attendant in the late 1980s, and based out of JFK, I remember taking the bus to the airport with flight attendants from Pan Am, TWA, United, Northwest and Tower Air. The Pan Am flight attendants were interesting to talk to, they were a mix of very senior people who flew the 707 in its glory days, and then the junior people who were around my seniority. I used to feel bad for the senior people at the time, they had spent their whole careers there, and Pan Am was dying a very slow death, as was TWA, but they stuck around longer.
 
klm617
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:43 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.


From
DTW to FRA and CDG starting in 1989
MSP to LGW and OSL
MIA to CPH and ARN

This was all before KLM came into the picture. They also served HAM

DL flew FRA to DFW, ATL, CVG and MCO.
DL also flew CLE-DTW-LGW, DTW-LGW-FRA and I believe MCO-DTW-LGW and MIA-DTW-LGW
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MIflyer12
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:00 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.


I recall DTW-BOS on a DC-10 circa 1992 with a continuation to Shannon. A great tailwind and the co-pilot declaring the highest groundspeed he had ever flown.
 
klm617
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:16 pm

So in short Northwest Orient's North American gateways to Europe were BOS, JFK, MIA and MSP Detroit was added into the mix after the merger with Republic. One other point to note is that Northwest Orient applied for twice weekly Detroit-London Gatwick flights but their application was turned down.

Northwest Orient also operated pure 747F cargo flights from New York JFK to AMS, MAN and PIK
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klm617
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.


I recall DTW-BOS on a DC-10 circa 1992 with a continuation to Shannon. A great tailwind and the co-pilot declaring the highest groundspeed he had ever flown.


That flight was flight 48 and 49 continuing onto to LGW before they bought the Detroit-London flight from Delta.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:32 am

DL flew DFW-FRA from the early 80's until 1997 but not DFW-LGW IIRC

NW by 1980 had several BOS & JFK to Northern European routes. Also MIA-CPH at one point. I will look for a timetable and I find one, will list the routes.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:26 am

klm617 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.


From
DTW to FRA and CDG starting in 1989
MSP to LGW and OSL
MIA to CPH and ARN

This was all before KLM came into the picture. They also served HAM

DL flew FRA to DFW, ATL, CVG and MCO.
DL also flew CLE-DTW-LGW, DTW-LGW-FRA and I believe MCO-DTW-LGW and MIA-DTW-LGW


DL's CLE-DTW-LGW route was on it inherited from the acquisition of Pan Am's core TATL routes in 1991, excluding LHR which was sold to UA. Pan Am operated DTW-LHR but DTW was not included in the sale to UA and so Pan Am ended up shifting it to LGW (it actually operated to LHR for a few weeks after UA began operating the LHR routes it bought from Pan Am) and lasted until the sale to Delta. It was operated with an A310. Delta never operated a legacy DL route from CLE to DTW and on to LGW.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:28 am

klm617 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.


From
DTW to FRA and CDG starting in 1989
MSP to LGW and OSL
MIA to CPH and ARN

This was all before KLM came into the picture. They also served HAM

DL flew FRA to DFW, ATL, CVG and MCO.
DL also flew CLE-DTW-LGW, DTW-LGW-FRA and I believe MCO-DTW-LGW and MIA-DTW-LGW


Much later, in the mid-1990s and at the height of Delta's FRA hub (inherited from the Pan Am acquisition) it briefly flew SFO-FRA on an L1011 (think it was 1995).
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:35 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.

Northwest Orient began flying to Copenhagen via Prestwick in 1979 and also Gatwick soon afterwards.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:37 am

skipness1E wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL's TATL origins can also be traced back to NWA that started flying out MSP and DTW to AMS after partnering with KL back in '89 I believe


No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.

Northwest Orient began flying to Copenhagen via Prestwick in 1979 and also Gatwick soon afterwards.


Correct. Later, in the mid-1980s, NW flew BOS-Glasgow (Prestwick) on a DC10-30 regularly. The flight originated at LGA, as a DC9 for the LGA-BOS sector.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:37 am

Are we sure Pan Am operated DTW-LHR alongside United’s former PA ops at LHR? Am pretty sure Pan Am left LHR the day before United arrived, only two US airlines could fly to LHR under Bermuda 2.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:39 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

No, Northwest was flying to Europe on its own metal long before the partnership with KLM. They had flights to Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Shannon, Hamburg, London (Gatwick), and Glasgow as far back as 1982 from JFK and BOS. Not sure what was served from MSP and DTW at the time.

Northwest Orient began flying to Copenhagen via Prestwick in 1979 and also Gatwick soon afterwards.


Correct. Later, in the mid-1980s, NW flew BOS-Glasgow (Prestwick) on a DC10-30 regularly. The flight originated at LGA, as a DC9 for the LGA-BOS sector.

Not quite, it was BOS-PIK moved to BOS-GLA in May 1990 and was on the DC10-40, the -30s never operates to Scotland.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:43 am

skipness1E wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Northwest Orient began flying to Copenhagen via Prestwick in 1979 and also Gatwick soon afterwards.


Correct. Later, in the mid-1980s, NW flew BOS-Glasgow (Prestwick) on a DC10-30 regularly. The flight originated at LGA, as a DC9 for the LGA-BOS sector.

Not quite, it was BOS-PIK moved to BOS-GLA in May 1990 and was on the DC10-40, the -30s never operates to Scotland.


The original Glasgow service was to Prestwick, which in the 1980s, as I said, operated to PIK, but you are correct, it was the DC10-40 not the -30 used on the route.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:47 am

skipness1E wrote:
Are we sure Pan Am operated DTW-LHR alongside United’s former PA ops at LHR? Am pretty sure Pan Am left LHR the day before United arrived, only two US airlines could fly to LHR under Bermuda 2.


Yes, but just for a few days at most before DTW-LHR moved to DTW-LGW on Pan Am. Something very similar happened with AA and TWA. The final TWA operation at LHR (departure of TWA 701 from LHR to JFK) coincided with the first day's arrival of AA equipment into LHR from JFK (July 1991). DTW-LHR was not a route included in the sale to UA by PA and PA had no station at LGW prior. It took a few days to get everything up and running. The sale of LHR slots to UA occurred before the sale of the rest of the TATL portfolio (PA) to DL. Delta bought Pan Am's remaining European network in August 1991 (by then UA was already operating to LHR).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:54 am

Another fun fact...UA launched LHR service before AA did, in 1991. The first UA flight to LHR landed on April 4th 1991, a 747 from IAD. The ramp up followed with JFK, SFO, MIA which were the other stations included in the sale to UA from PA. AA launched LHR on July 1 1991 from JFK.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:09 am

DL747400 wrote:
Delta inaugurated TATL service in 1978, with ATL-LGW service using the Lockheed L-1011-500 TriStar:


The DL inaugural in 1978 was flown with pair of leased TWA L-1011-100s.

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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:21 am

skipness1E wrote:
Are we sure Pan Am operated DTW-LHR alongside United’s former PA ops at LHR? Am pretty sure Pan Am left LHR the day before United arrived, only two US airlines could fly to LHR under Bermuda 2.


Correct - in this period UA actually temporarily operated MIA-LHR until AA was permitted to move its MIA-LGW flight to LHR on July 1. UA had sought MIA-London authority also but only if they could serve Heathrow. Once they were Gatwicked the flight remained with Pan Am. It's a complicated history on the Miami-London route. I think their is a thread somewhere about it.
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:25 am

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
There's going to be people here that know way more than me, but 2 things I can confirm.
AA did start LGW service from DFW sometime in 1982. They took over the route authority from Braniff, which went bankrupt in May, 1982. I think they used a D10-30. In 1987 they launched DFW to FRA and ORY using 767 aircraft. It was a big deal to use 2 engine aircraft across the Atlantic, ETOPS had just been approved.
DL launched ATL-LGW in 1978. It was the first service to London from the South other than National Airline's route from MIA. DL later started service to FRA using the L-1011 around 1981 mainly due to the success of the LGW route.



It was TWA that launched 767 TATL. AA is now listed as default as they bought out TWA.
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:36 am

At least initially, the DL service to LGW originated in MSY.

MSY-ATL-LGW, same plane service, on the L1011-100. It was a big deal in MSY to have a one-seat ride to London, and on its preferred airline at the time.

The initial DL/PA interchange via IAD also originated in MSY... MSY-ATL-IAD-Europe.
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UA444
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:10 am

I could’ve swore UA did inherit the DTW-LON authority and later sold It to NW in the late 1990s as some condition to finally get ORD-LHR.
 
factsonly
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:20 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Another fun fact...UA launched LHR service before AA did, in 1991. The first UA flight to LHR landed on April 4th 1991, a 747 from IAD. The ramp up followed with JFK, SFO, MIA which were the other stations included in the sale to UA from PA. AA launched LHR on July 1 1991 from JFK.


If my memory service me correctly, UNITED initially commenced beyond LHR operations into Europe with B727 aircraft stationed at LHR.

- LHR-AMS UA B727
- LHR-BRU UA B727

etc..

Not dissimilar to PA's European B727 operation based in Berlin and used to feed PA TATL at LHR as well.
In fact, I believe TWA did this as well for a short while.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:44 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
DL's CLE-DTW-LGW route was on it inherited from the acquisition of Pan Am's core TATL routes in 1991, excluding LHR which was sold to UA.


I was on DTW-LGW very shortly after DL took over. There was a NW employee counting passengers to assess if the route was going to be viable for DL! (DL DTW-LGW didn't last too long.) IIRC, they moved CLE-DTW-LGW to CVG-DTW-LGW before giving up.

Do I remember correctly that there was a Crown Room at DTW back in the day?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
DL's CLE-DTW-LGW route was on it inherited from the acquisition of Pan Am's core TATL routes in 1991, excluding LHR which was sold to UA.


I was on DTW-LGW very shortly after DL took over. There was a NW employee counting passengers to assess if the route was going to be viable for DL! (DL DTW-LGW didn't last too long.) IIRC, they moved CLE-DTW-LGW to CVG-DTW-LGW before giving up.

Do I remember correctly that there was a Crown Room at DTW back in the day?


I believe that is correct, yes. DL did not really want to operate CLE-DTW-LGW after it took over the route from PA as it connected cities that weren't DL hubs. Not sure if the DTW-LGW route became the CVG-LGW route, as Delta would not have needed to move the route to fly CVG-LGW, but I am not sure, other than the fact that the operation from CLE to LGW via DTW lasted just a few months.
 
amc737
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:30 pm

Pan Am and United never co-flew to Heathrow even for a few days, the last Pan Am flight into Heathrow was on 3 April 1991 (I think it was an A310 from Frankfurt), United inaugurated service with a 4 April 1991 747 arrival from Washington. United also temporarily took over Miami to Heathrow, the first arrival was also 4 April 1991. United operated MIA-LHR until 17 May 1991 as UA950, the last arrival was on 18 May 1991. Pan Am re-started Miami London on 18 May 1991 with the first arrival into Gatwick on 19 May 1991. At the time the Bermuda II agreement allowed 2 US carriers to fly Miami to London, Pan Am's rights originated with National, passed to Pan Am and then Delta. The other rights had been with Air Florida, Eastern, Continental ending up with American who operated to Gatwick but moved service to Heathrow after buying TWA's Heathrow authority.

Detroit is more patchy, Pan Am had actually suspended Detroit to Heathrow in late February 1991, Northwest did get a temporary weaver to fly Detroit to Gatwick but i'm not sure they ever did start this service. Pan Am did start Detroit to Gatwick in May 1991 (i'm sure of the exact date) and like Miami ended up being purchased by Delta who later sold the Detroit authority to Northwest.

amc737
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:33 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
AA started DFW-LGW on a 747-100 in 1982, when it took over the route authority from the demise of Braniff. The equipment changed to a DC-10-30 in 1984 when the 747 classics were traded for DC-10-30s from Pan Am, who in turn inherited them from the National merger. DFW-FRA and DFW-ORY were added in 1985, both on DC-10-30s.

The next expansion came in 1986, with ORD-ORY, ORD-FRA, ORD-MAN, ORD-DUS-MUC and ORD-ZRH-GVA added on new delivery 767-200ERs. 1987 saw JFK-ORY and JFK-FRA added on DC-10-30s, which were replaced with the 767-300 on ORY and the 767-200 on FRA the following year. 1988 saw AA add DFW-MAD.

1989 brought RDU-ORY(763), ORD-ARN(762), JFK-LYS(762), JFK-BRU-HAM (763), and ORD-BRU-DUS(763) into the network. When STR was added as a tag from JFK-ZRH, the JFK-ORY flight added a tag to GVA. The ORD-ZRH flight added a tag to MUC.

A lot of routes were cut in early 1990, because the aircraft were needed to start up the new Deep South American routes out of MIA that were purchased from Eastern. JFK lost nonstops to LYS and FRA, and the tags to GVA, HAM and STR were discontinued. ORD-DUS got back to the original tag to MUC, eventually they were operated as separate flights in the mid 90s.

Late 1990 brought ORD-LGW, and then 1991 was a big year when the LHR routes were purchased from TWA. LHR was served from JFK using a mix of 747SP, 762, 763 and DC-10-30s. MIA, LAX and EWR to LHR were flown on the 763, and BOS was initially served by domestic configured DC-10-10s until more 763s were delivered. JFK-MAN and JFK-LGW were also added on the 762. JFK-LGW didn’t last long, less than a year.

That’s about all I remember from 31 years of flying these routes. More might come to mind.


This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm

Interestingly United operated IAD-GLA from Aug93 to Jan95 on the B762. The market was overserved and as soon as code sharing with British Midland became an option, GLA was dropped after a tag onto AMS failed. They had been super keen to serve Scotland alongside BA and applied for GLA-ORD and IAD but AA got ORD and UA came mate to the party. Of course United bought Continental and returned to Scotland on the CO routes.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:16 pm

factsonly wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Another fun fact...UA launched LHR service before AA did, in 1991. The first UA flight to LHR landed on April 4th 1991, a 747 from IAD. The ramp up followed with JFK, SFO, MIA which were the other stations included in the sale to UA from PA. AA launched LHR on July 1 1991 from JFK.


If my memory service me correctly, UNITED initially commenced beyond LHR operations into Europe with B727 aircraft stationed at LHR.

- LHR-AMS UA B727
- LHR-BRU UA B727

etc..

Not dissimilar to PA's European B727 operation based in Berlin and used to feed PA TATL at LHR as well.
In fact, I believe TWA did this as well for a short while.


Also LHR-HAM, LHR-MUC, and a few others were flown on UA for a few years.

IAD-LHR-DEL for many years also as part of the round-the-world services, which was not a PA route (Pan Am India services from the USA were routed via FRA).
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:45 pm

Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread, but AA also had a brief cup of coffee on BNA-LGW from summer 1994 through summer 1995 with a DC-10.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:56 pm

DL_Mech wrote:
The DL inaugural in 1978 was flown with pair of leased TWA L-1011-100s.


:checkmark: Thanks for the correction! Yes, the DL -500s came later.
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findingnema
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:00 pm

Regarding the crew bases that were in London, did the Pan Am London base crew get transferred over to United with the new route authorities or did everyone lose their job and have to reapply? I know that there are some ex Pan Am people at the United station here in London but not sure of their story.

Also, I remember until 9/11 that Northwest had an inflight language ambassador role at Gatwick. Does anyone remember this and what the deal was?
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Polot
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:11 pm

It’s always amazing to look back at all the completely off the wall routes the rising US carriers operated back in the 80s through early 90s, often with completely mismatched equipment for the demand, as they tried to expand their international footprint while being locked out of major routes due to bilateral restrictions.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:13 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
AA started DFW-LGW on a 747-100 in 1982, when it took over the route authority from the demise of Braniff. The equipment changed to a DC-10-30 in 1984 when the 747 classics were traded for DC-10-30s from Pan Am, who in turn inherited them from the National merger. DFW-FRA and DFW-ORY were added in 1985, both on DC-10-30s.

The next expansion came in 1986, with ORD-ORY, ORD-FRA, ORD-MAN, ORD-DUS-MUC and ORD-ZRH-GVA added on new delivery 767-200ERs. 1987 saw JFK-ORY and JFK-FRA added on DC-10-30s, which were replaced with the 767-300 on ORY and the 767-200 on FRA the following year. 1988 saw AA add DFW-MAD.

1989 brought RDU-ORY(763), ORD-ARN(762), JFK-LYS(762), JFK-BRU-HAM (763), and ORD-BRU-DUS(763) into the network. When STR was added as a tag from JFK-ZRH, the JFK-ORY flight added a tag to GVA. The ORD-ZRH flight added a tag to MUC.

A lot of routes were cut in early 1990, because the aircraft were needed to start up the new Deep South American routes out of MIA that were purchased from Eastern. JFK lost nonstops to LYS and FRA, and the tags to GVA, HAM and STR were discontinued. ORD-DUS got back to the original tag to MUC, eventually they were operated as separate flights in the mid 90s.

Late 1990 brought ORD-LGW, and then 1991 was a big year when the LHR routes were purchased from TWA. LHR was served from JFK using a mix of 747SP, 762, 763 and DC-10-30s. MIA, LAX and EWR to LHR were flown on the 763, and BOS was initially served by domestic configured DC-10-10s until more 763s were delivered. JFK-MAN and JFK-LGW were also added on the 762. JFK-LGW didn’t last long, less than a year.

That’s about all I remember from 31 years of flying these routes. More might come to mind.


This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.


LYS was the first transatlantic IFS (International Flagship Service) trip I worked as a new hire F/A. The highest load I ever saw on the flight was about 90 passengers total on the 762. It was an awesome trip to work, very friendly passengers, Satolas was a cute little airport, and the people in the city itself were very sweet. It had that small town feel to it. The food was incredible, naturally, and I remember one trip I flew that some senior flight attendants made reservations to go to Paul Bocuse. Those were the days! We got to know some people who worked in restaurants where we were regulars, and I remember when we told them that AA was pulling out of LYS, some of them even cried. We were crushed to be leaving, I remember my last trip in February or March of 1990.

RDU-ORY was originally flown on the 763, because all 4 flights into ORY were on the 763 at the time, and later it became a 762. When LGW and later LHR started at RDU, that was the end of ORY.

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